The Latest News
Connect with Us

Notable Releases
From the Store
Game of Thrones House Stark Banner Necklace
Game of Thrones House Stark Banner Necklace
HBO US
Featured Sites
License Holders

Jump to content


Photo

Ned at the Wall


  • Please log in to reply
42 replies to this topic

#1 Dany Girl

Dany Girl

    Baddest Queen in Town

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,776 posts

Posted 18 July 2013 - 10:30 AM

Say Joffery wasn't a total douche and listened to his mom and sent Ned to the Wall and not chopped off his head. What effect would that have on the dynamic at the Wall?

Would Jon have had a chance to come into his own or would he slip back into the "Ned's son" roll? What would Ned have done? Master at arms? Ranger? Would Ned have taken over after LC Mormont instead of Jon (my money is in yes in this case).

How would Stannis's appearance have effected Ned? Would Ned blame him for running away from KL leaving Ned with nothing to combat Cersei?

And how would the fight with the Wildings change? Would he let them though the Wall?

#2 Squarely Rooted

Squarely Rooted

    Noble

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 672 posts

Posted 18 July 2013 - 12:16 PM

My bet is that, if Team Lannister sent Ned up to the Wall, they would've been intercepted by the Northern army and Ned would've been free from his commitment, having made his promise under coercion. If this had happened after the Battle of the Whispering Wood, the North probably would've out-and-out declared for Stannis, brining the Riverlands along with them, which might have changed the Tyrell calculus substantially in delcaring for Renly.

Now, if that doesn't happen and Ned really does make it to the Wall and take the black, he probably would arrive after the Great Ranging left, but might be elevated very quickly to Castellan of Castle Black, and likely would indeed have been made LC after Mormont's death, with Jon as his steward. I'd bet the battles at Castle Black and the Wall go largely the same way, and that LC Stark makes similar decisions to LC Snow, frankly.

EDIT: Of course, if everything else in the War of [Lots of] Kings goes otherwise identically (a big assumption, but let's roll with it) when Stannis gets to the wall and offers to restore Ned Stark as Lord of Winterfell, absolving him of his vows, he might very well take him up on the offer, leaving Jon Snow to become LC. With Ned Stark heading back to Winterfell, the Boltons and Freys are likely straight-up slaughtered by the other Northern houses by the time Ned arrives.

Edited by Squarely Rooted, 18 July 2013 - 12:18 PM.


#3 aceluby

aceluby

    Wylla Manderly Fanclub President

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,539 posts

Posted 18 July 2013 - 12:35 PM

EDIT: Of course, if everything else in the War of [Lots of] Kings goes otherwise identically (a big assumption, but let's roll with it) when Stannis gets to the wall and offers to restore Ned Stark as Lord of Winterfell, absolving him of his vows, he might very well take him up on the offer, leaving Jon Snow to become LC. With Ned Stark heading back to Winterfell, the Boltons and Freys are likely straight-up slaughtered by the other Northern houses by the time Ned arrives.


There's no way that Ned would sacrifice his gods in order to become lord of winterfell again. He'd think Stannis had turned crazy and wonder what happened to the honorable man who would not even visit a brothel, much less have a relationship outside his marriage w/ a crazy she devil so she could birth devil shadow babies.

I think you're right that he would have been saved heading to the wall by the Northerners which would be the catalyst to the war instead of Ned's death.

#4 tyrion_skywalker

tyrion_skywalker

    Freerider

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 53 posts

Posted 18 July 2013 - 12:35 PM

I agree with the above, I think he would have been intercepted, probably in the Riverlands by the Tullys (if Yoren didn't free him sooner). And he would've taken command and declared for Stannis. He would've been a better political tactician/coalition builder than Robb was, who probably still would've ended up marrying the Frey girl for the bridge.

#5 Squarely Rooted

Squarely Rooted

    Noble

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 672 posts

Posted 18 July 2013 - 12:45 PM

There's no way that Ned would sacrifice his gods in order to become lord of winterfell again. He'd think Stannis had turned crazy and wonder what happened to the honorable man who would not even visit a brothel, much less have a relationship outside his marriage w/ a crazy she devil so she could birth devil shadow babies.

I think you're right that he would have been saved heading to the wall by the Northerners which would be the catalyst to the war instead of Ned's death.


I think he'd be a little befuddled by post-Mel Stannis, but I'd wager someone with his stature, authority, and potential could drive a harder bargain with Stannis than Jon could, along the lines of "keep your red god out of it and you've got a deal."

#6 Glenn of House Patrick

Glenn of House Patrick

    Landed Knight

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 479 posts

Posted 18 July 2013 - 12:51 PM

My bet is that, if Team Lannister sent Ned up to the Wall, they would've been intercepted by the Northern army and Ned would've been free from his commitment, having made his promise under coercion. If this had happened after the Battle of the Whispering Wood, the North probably would've out-and-out declared for Stannis, brining the Riverlands along with them, which might have changed the Tyrell calculus substantially in delcaring for Renly.

Now, if that doesn't happen and Ned really does make it to the Wall and take the black, he probably would arrive after the Great Ranging left, but might be elevated very quickly to Castellan of Castle Black, and likely would indeed have been made LC after Mormont's death, with Jon as his steward. I'd bet the battles at Castle Black and the Wall go largely the same way, and that LC Stark makes similar decisions to LC Snow, frankly.

EDIT: Of course, if everything else in the War of [Lots of] Kings goes otherwise identically (a big assumption, but let's roll with it) when Stannis gets to the wall and offers to restore Ned Stark as Lord of Winterfell, absolving him of his vows, he might very well take him up on the offer, leaving Jon Snow to become LC. With Ned Stark heading back to Winterfell, the Boltons and Freys are likely straight-up slaughtered by the other Northern houses by the time Ned arrives.


I agree, for the most part. I only have an issue with the bolded part. Ned Stark would have refused, only because the deal was to burn down the weirwood trees and take up the red god.

ETA: Ninja'd before I read the whole thread.

Edited by Glenn of House Patrick, 18 July 2013 - 12:52 PM.


#7 mormont

mormont

    Roja la sangre de mi corazón

  • Board Moderators
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 34,843 posts

Posted 18 July 2013 - 12:52 PM

I agree with the above, I think he would have been intercepted, probably in the Riverlands by the Tullys (if Yoren didn't free him sooner). And he would've taken command and declared for Stannis. He would've been a better political tactician/coalition builder than Robb was, who probably still would've ended up marrying the Frey girl for the bridge.


No. This misunderstands the nature of taking the Black. Taking the Black is a choice, even if the choice is between death and service in the Night's Watch. A man gives his word to do it. If Ned is going to the Wall, it's because he's pledged to join the Night's Watch: and being freed on the way won't change that pledge.

I could see him maybe, maybe, deciding to delay his service until after the war. But that's all.

There's a very similar topic about Jon deserting, and people seem to be making a similar mistake there. The Starks are the last people in Westeros who would play fast and loose with the rules on the Night's Watch.

#8 Squarely Rooted

Squarely Rooted

    Noble

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 672 posts

Posted 18 July 2013 - 12:55 PM

No. This misunderstands the nature of taking the Black. Taking the Black is a choice, even if the choice is between death and service in the Night's Watch. A man gives his word to do it. If Ned is going to the Wall, it's because he's pledged to join the Night's Watch: and being freed on the way won't change that pledge.

I could see him maybe, maybe, deciding to delay his service until after the war. But that's all.

There's a very similar topic about Jon deserting, and people seem to be making a similar mistake there. The Starks are the last people in Westeros who would play fast and loose with the rules on the Night's Watch.


The key difference is that Jon Snow willingly and freely took the oath; Ned simply committed to enlisting, and only under extreme duress and coercion. I don't think it would take much to absolve him of that commitment.

#9 Glenn of House Patrick

Glenn of House Patrick

    Landed Knight

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 479 posts

Posted 18 July 2013 - 12:55 PM

Ned would have arrived and whipped the NW into tip top shape, especially if his arrival is after the mutiny and the great ranging. Basically replace Jon Snow with him. Ned had a bit more political savvy (amongst northmen) and I don't think they'd have tried to assassinate him becasue Ned seems to know what he's doing (again, in the north). Ned's reputation and honor are far more well known and acclaimed than the supposed bastard of his.

#10 Groat

Groat

    Golden Hand the Good

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,661 posts

Posted 18 July 2013 - 12:56 PM

No. This misunderstands the nature of taking the Black. Taking the Black is a choice, even if the choice is between death and service in the Night's Watch. A man gives his word to do it. If Ned is going to the Wall, it's because he's pledged to join the Night's Watch: and being freed on the way won't change that pledge.


I agree. Ned is a man of his word, and he basically entered an agreement with the crown that he would take the black, and Robb would bend the knee. I kind of like this "what if" scenario, because Robb returns to WF, most likely with Sansa, Balon never attacks the North, and Robb is ready to call his banners when Mance marches on the wall.

#11 oprahnoodlemantra

oprahnoodlemantra

    Landed Knight

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 397 posts

Posted 18 July 2013 - 01:00 PM

Robb would have ambushed the party escorting Ned to the Wall and freed him. Ned would be okay with this because Joffrey is a false king and therefore his demands don't mean anything. They would have declared for Stannis, brought in the Riverlands, and with Ned around the Vale would join as well. With all of those armies in alliance, Renly would be a moron to try to declare himself king, as would Balon Greyjoy. The Martells would love some Lannister revenge so we would have the North, the Riverlands, the Vale, the Stormlands, Dorne, and possibly the Reach if they could figure out some sort of deal. The Lannisters would be all but fucked and Stannis would be king with Davos as his Hand.

After overthrowing Joffrey, Ned would take his army North to answer the pleas of the NW. He was already well aware of Mance Rayder. If Jon told him about the Others he would be inclined to believe him and would probably get Stannis to help. He'd probably also stand behind Jon in letting the Wildlings through the Wall. If I'm not mistaken, he wanted to populate the Gift anyway.

The wild cards would be Aegon and Dany. Tyrion would either be killed or sent to the Wall so he wouldn't be in Essos to influence Aegon. Victarion wouldn't be there either because no Balon rebellion=no return of Euron. Therefore, Aegon would probably go to Meereen to try to marry Daenerys. Quentyn is more legit than Aegon and she laughed in his face so it's possible she'd do the same to Aegon. She would have Jorah by her side because Barristan would never have gone to Essos and therefore would never reveal Jorah's treason. If she married Aegon there would be an invasion of Westeros by Dany, her dragons, the Golden Company, and a bunch of Unsullied. They'd probably do alright in the south while huge numbers would be in the North to fight the Wildlings and prepare for the return of the Others. I dunno what would happen next because it's all based on dumb speculation anyway.

#12 aceluby

aceluby

    Wylla Manderly Fanclub President

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,539 posts

Posted 18 July 2013 - 01:00 PM

I think he'd be a little befuddled by post-Mel Stannis, but I'd wager someone with his stature, authority, and potential could drive a harder bargain with Stannis than Jon could, along the lines of "keep your red god out of it and you've got a deal."


That's a stronger possibility. You have to keep in mind though that Stannis doesn't particularily like Ned though, so while I do believe that Ned would support his claim, I'm not sure how much say Ned would have as far as advising him.

#13 Maester Ciarán

Maester Ciarán

    Freerider

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 69 posts

Posted 18 July 2013 - 01:01 PM

If he was sent to the wall, Ned would of stayed true to his honor and joined the Night's Watch. He would of likely met up with Robb on the way to say goodbye and tell him the truth of Joffrey and to support Stannis. Then at the wall Ned being recognised as a good man, and his experience and honor would likely have been elected Lord Commander

#14 TheBastardofBluegrass

TheBastardofBluegrass

    Hedge Knight

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 283 posts

Posted 18 July 2013 - 01:01 PM

There are a lot of assumptions with this thread. But there are a lot of nods that suggest Littlefinger coerced Joffrey to execute Ned behind Cersei's back. Littlefinger always wanted Ned out of the picture - "I told you not to trust me," he probably would have sent men to kill him, furthermore, If Ned had been handed over to Yoren, there still would have been the confrontation with the Gold Cloaks concerning Gendry. I think there's a very good chance that had Ned been granted release to the NW, the journey there would have turned into a Westerosi version of Cormac McCarthy's The Road, with Arya and Ned. Maybe Ned would have taken leadership of the Brotherhood, which would have been a very cool arc for his character. Keeping with the themes of "no happy endings," it's unlikey there would have been a reunion between Robb, Catelyn, and Ned. I think somewhere along the way he would have either been assassinated for political reasons - Freys/Boltons, or died protecting Arya.

Edited by TheBastardofBluegrass, 18 July 2013 - 01:05 PM.


#15 Ser_Cortnay_Penrose

Ser_Cortnay_Penrose

    Squire

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 172 posts

Posted 18 July 2013 - 01:02 PM

My bet is that, if Team Lannister sent Ned up to the Wall, they would've been intercepted by the Northern army and Ned would've been free from his commitment, having made his promise under coercion. If this had happened after the Battle of the Whispering Wood, the North probably would've out-and-out declared for Stannis, brining the Riverlands along with them, which might have changed the Tyrell calculus substantially in delcaring for Renly.


No way. That sounds like a great story but it wouldn't happen because the Lannisters would have Sansa and Arya. That's the only reason Ned publicly claims treason. Maybe Ned defies his vows, leaves the wall, and raises an army of the North, Neck, Vale, and Riverlands to overthrow Joffrey and save Sansa and Arya after declaring Joff a fraud. That too would be a hell of a story. But still I think it doubtful because it puts his children at risk.

Edited by The_Grass_Hides_the_Snake, 18 July 2013 - 01:03 PM.


#16 WatcherOnTheWall

WatcherOnTheWall

    Sellsword

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 130 posts

Posted 18 July 2013 - 01:02 PM

It would have meant that the North never swayed from Stark rule. With each house remaining as loyal as ever to the Starks with no Red Wedding. It would have meant everything remaining fairly regular in the North (excluding events at the Wall), with almost no emotional turmoil for readers to indulge and no plot progression of note. I love Ned Stark but he had to die for the sake of the story, simple as.

#17 RumHam

RumHam

    Commoner

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 4,175 posts

Posted 18 July 2013 - 01:04 PM

I think he would have stuck to his word and stayed at the wall. His legendary honor aside, lets not forget that the Lannisters weren't about to let go of Sansa, she would remain in KL as a hostage for good behavior of the Starks.

I'm sorta curious if Ned would have to take shit from Allister Thorne though. Maybe he would just immediately take his missing brother's place as first ranger or something.

#18 eggs

eggs

    Council Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,047 posts

Posted 18 July 2013 - 01:05 PM

He wouldn't have broken his oath. His leg would've been to bum for the great ranging so he would've become lord commander. If Jon still rides with the wildlings, I can see him being convinced to let the Wildings through the wall. Stannis and Ned's relationship would've been more antagonistic than StannisxJon.

Ned had a bit more political savvy (amongst northmen) and I don't think they'd have tried to assassinate him becasue Ned seems to know what he's doing (again, in the north). Ned's reputation and honor are far more well known and acclaimed than the supposed bastard of his.

its not really about north vs south here. Jon's main problem was that he locked his men out of the loop. He became cold and the nights watchmen started viewing him as a bit of a jerk and a prick. Ned wouldn't have that problem. We already know that Ned ate dinner with a different man every night just to know what was going and what the comman men's needs where. Jon would'nt have been shanked if he had bothered to actually sit with his brothers and explain why he was doing what he was doing to the seniors.

#19 Glenn of House Patrick

Glenn of House Patrick

    Landed Knight

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 479 posts

Posted 18 July 2013 - 01:15 PM

He wouldn't have broken his oath. His leg would've been to bum for the great ranging so he would've become lord commander. If Jon still rides with the wildlings, I can see him being convinced to let the Wildings through the wall. Stannis and Ned's relationship would've been more antagonistic than StannisxJon. its not really about north vs south here. Jon's main problem was that he locked his men out of the loop. He became cold and the nights watchmen started viewing him as a bit of a jerk and a prick. Ned wouldn't have that problem. We already know that Ned ate dinner with a different man every night just to know what was going and what the comman men's needs where. Jon would'nt have been shanked if he had bothered to actually sit with his brothers and explain why he was doing what he was doing to the seniors.

I know it's not north vs south here. I pointed that out because plenty of posters rightfully think that Ned went south and left his political skills in winterfell. It's not entirely true, I know, but that's why I made the comments about it being in the north.

#20 eggs

eggs

    Council Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,047 posts

Posted 18 July 2013 - 01:20 PM

He's probably savvy enough when not dealing with conspiracies even in the south. He certainly didnt appear to have mucked anything else up while serving as hand.