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Lyanna's abduction would still be despised even if it was consensual, right?


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#1 Ser Greg of House House

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Posted 15 August 2013 - 03:51 PM

I find that sometimes people confuse the feelings we, the readers, have towards a certain event and what characters would think about it.

Of course, if Lyanna was not raped but loved Rhaegar, it has a series of implications, both for us and for the characters.

Essentially Rhaegar wasn't a rapist/bad guy. That's important for us and for her family, like Ned.

But...

Even if they loved each other, I believe it would be still fucked up and despised in the North.

1. Ladies don't really choose who they marry. Marriages are political, so he would still be "stealing" her.
2. He was much older and a married man. North doesn't really approve of two wives.

So even if people believe Lyanna went willingly, it would still be an aggression on Rhaegar's part. You can't just seduce a 15 year old girl, take her away from her parents and marry her. Morally it can be acceptable, but politically it's an aggression. Of course personally people like Ned could forgive him.

I say that because some people see it like Starks are not really Targ enemies just because Ned doesn't think of Rhaegar as a rapist, but I believe they are.

#2 Jojen Dayne-Reed

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Posted 15 August 2013 - 03:58 PM

True. But if Brandon had known they eloped would he have still gone to KL and demanded justice?

People would probably still think badly of Rhaeger. But they probably wouldn't think "go to war" badly of him.

Then Rhaegar has more time to engineer a peaceful succession. No war. Everyone lives.

The moral of the entire series then is: leave a note.

#3 Ser Greg of House House

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Posted 15 August 2013 - 04:02 PM

I have the impression that yes, they would still have gone to KL. As in: "Hey. If Rhae-man wants to marry her, he has to ask us first. You can't just steal our girl. She's bethroted to Bob."

But then obviously things wouldn't be so tense and maybe Aerys wouldn't burn them. I'm not really sure whether Rickard would see it as a decent deal to marry her to Rhaegar and what Robert would do.

#4 bloodsteel bitterraven

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Posted 15 August 2013 - 05:19 PM

I find that sometimes people confuse the feelings we, the readers, have towards a certain event and what characters would think about it.

Of course, if Lyanna was not raped but loved Rhaegar, it has a series of implications, both for us and for the characters.

Essentially Rhaegar wasn't a rapist/bad guy. That's important for us and for her family, like Ned.

But...

Even if they loved each other, I believe it would be still fucked up and despised in the North.

1. Ladies don't really choose who they marry. Marriages are political, so he would still be "stealing" her.
2. He was much older and a married man. North doesn't really approve of two wives.

So even if people believe Lyanna went willingly, it would still be an aggression on Rhaegar's part. You can't just seduce a 15 year old girl, take her away from her parents and marry her. Morally it can be acceptable, but politically it's an aggression. Of course personally people like Ned could forgive him.

I say that because some people see it like Starks are not really Targ enemies just because Ned doesn't think of Rhaegar as a rapist, but I believe they are.


Stealing is ok in wildling culture and the wildlings are all first men like the Starks and the majority of the Northerners.

#5 JoeJoe

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Posted 15 August 2013 - 05:22 PM

The starks are not wildling and do no adhere to such traditions. It is an irrelevant comparison. Such action is an insult to the houses involved and an affront to rickard stark as head of house stark and father to lyanna.

#6 bloodsteel bitterraven

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Posted 15 August 2013 - 05:40 PM

No the Starks are not wildlings but both the Starks and the wildlings are descendants of the first men. Stark traditions have been corrupted by Andal influences, but the wildlings have kept those traditions. So it would be kind of poetic if Rhaegar "stole her" and proved to her he had what it takes to be a smart and strong partner.

#7 Ser Greg of House House

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Posted 15 August 2013 - 05:41 PM

Stealing is ok in wildling culture and the wildlings are all first men like the Starks and the majority of the Northerners.


Come on now... They share some things. Starks and northmen in general do not make marriages through stealing. Lords marry their daughters off as alliances like the rest of the realms.

#8 PrimeRhaegar

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Posted 15 August 2013 - 05:42 PM

well rickard would have loved a royal match but i know robert would bitch and the kidnapping would cause for alot of sorting out as will to appease dorne.

#9 Lady of Long Lake

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Posted 15 August 2013 - 05:44 PM

I agree with everything you said, Dany the Mad Queen.

Even if L+R were madly in love, Rhaegar was giving the middle finger to the Liege Lord of the North, the Liege Lord of the Stormlands and the Liege Lord of the Vale. The Liege Lord of the Riverlands was pissed because Tully's had a marriage alliance/friendship with the Starks and Dorne must have seethed when Rhaegar publically disrespected Elia by crowning Lyanna.


P.S.Lyanna was 13 yrs old by the way!

#10 Timm Snow

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Posted 15 August 2013 - 05:45 PM

No the Starks are not wildlings but both the Starks and the wildlings are descendants of the first men. Stark traditions have been corrupted by Andal influences, but the wildlings have kept those traditions. So it would be kind of poetic if Rhaegar "stole her" and proved to her he had what it takes to be a smart and strong partner.


also no. even if that was half true. rhaegar was not only not from the north but a targaryen from essos. so the rules wouldn't apply to him. lol

#11 Pikachu101

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Posted 15 August 2013 - 06:59 PM

well rickard would have loved a royal match but i know robert would bitch and the kidnapping would cause for alot of sorting out as will to appease dorne.

This royal match would be the death of House Stark. Lyanna shamed, humiliated and tarnished the reputation of the family by running off with a married man whilst being betrothed to another. So no, Rickard would not be thrilled by this marriage, if anything he'll be even more angry because Lyanna willingly humiliated her family.

This consensual love affair would be despised for many reasons:
A) House Stark's name has been slandered
B ) Lyanna's going to suffer with this scandal looming over her head
C) a woman's maidenhead means everything if she tarnishes her reputation she's screwed
D) The Martells are definitely not going to be ok with it

#12 JoeJoe

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Posted 15 August 2013 - 07:09 PM

Finally some sanity.

#13 Bright Blue Eyes

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Posted 15 August 2013 - 07:10 PM

This royal match would be the death of House Stark. Lyanna shamed, humiliated and tarnished the reputation of the family by running off with a married man whilst being betrothed to another. So no, Rickard would not be thrilled by this marriage, if anything he'll be even more angry because Lyanna willingly humiliated her family.

This consensual love affair would be despised for many reasons:
A) House Stark's name has been slandered
B ) Lyanna's going to suffer with this scandal looming over her head
C) a woman's maidenhead means everything if she tarnishes her reputation she's screwed
D) The Martells are definitely not going to be ok with it

Furthermore, civil war between Elia's and Lyanna's children is almost a given a couple decades down the line. A war where House Stark would not only have to take a side, but actually be the main party of their side, with all the dangers that poses.
Unless one side or the other is murdered earlier.

#14 JoeJoe

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Posted 15 August 2013 - 07:13 PM

Why would the starks take sides? After a betrayal of here family like that I think that she would be on here own. I do not see the north going to war over lyanna's descendants.

#15 Pikachu101

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Posted 15 August 2013 - 07:14 PM

Furthermore, civil war between Elia's and Lyanna's children is almost a given a couple decades down the line. A war where House Stark would not only have to take a side, but actually be the main party of their side, with all the dangers that poses.
Unless one side or the other is murdered earlier.

Imagine House Stark playing the GoT /tongue.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':P' />

You're right, a second wife with sons is just screaming for a civil war to happen. I don't know what Elia and the Martells are going to do but I can safely say that although the North has more man power, Dorne has the brains.

I've always seen her convince Jon to join the KG or the NWs; anything that prevents him from having sons. Either that or Jon has a little "accident" /eek.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':eek:' />

#16 Max Berg

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Posted 15 August 2013 - 07:17 PM

So even if people believe Lyanna went willingly, it would still be an aggression on Rhaegar's part. You can't just seduce a 15 year old girl, take her away from her parents and marry her. Morally it can be acceptable, but politically it's an aggression.


I believe it is the right opposite, still morally unacceptable, but politically not an aggression. It was something it should have been solved as a private issue, as it was.

#17 DavosSeaworthy

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Posted 15 August 2013 - 07:19 PM

well rickard would have loved a royal match but i know robert would bitch and the kidnapping would cause for alot of sorting out as will to appease dorne.


Of course he would have loved a royal match, and I'm sure if Areys had offered him Rhaegar before he married him off to Elia he would have accepted and been thrilled. However, having your daughter be the second fiddle and your grandkids not the first in line to inherit the throne is not an ideal situation. Plus having your daughter run off like that ruining your match you made for her could make you look bad, all in all this situation was bad news bears from the start and it ended in a horrible fashion.

#18 C0bR

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Posted 15 August 2013 - 07:21 PM

well rickard would have loved a royal match but i know robert would bitch and the kidnapping would cause for alot of sorting out as will to appease dorne.

Rickard's honor would have been absolutely destroyed if he was not able to finish the sacred marriage contract between him and Robert.

#19 ejhawman

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Posted 15 August 2013 - 07:27 PM

I'm not so sure how ironclad some of the involved agreements were, or if some workaround could have been found. But even if it were an elopement instead of a straight-up kidnapping, even if Rhaegar had had the presence of mind to leave a note making it seem consensual just to calm or confuse the Starks, there would still have been an issue of honor to address.

Now, if Brandon had gone to the gates of the Red Keep and more politely asked the King to adjudicate the matter, and still gotten burned, the matter would be much more clear.

#20 Bright Blue Eyes

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Posted 15 August 2013 - 07:34 PM

Why would the starks take sides? After a betrayal of here family like that I think that she would be on here own. I do not see the north going to war over lyanna's descendants.

That would be suicide for the rule of the Starks in the North. Their bannermen wouldn't accept it. Furthermore, Elia's side would attack them purely out of precaution.

Imagine House Stark playing the GoT /tongue.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':P' />

You're right, a second wife with sons is just screaming for a civil war to happen. I don't know what Elia and the Martells are going to do but I can safely say that although the North has more man power, Dorne has the brains.

I've always seen her convince Jon to join the KG or the NWs; anything that prevents him from having sons. Either that or Jon has a little "accident" /eek.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':eek:' />

The larger part of the South may side with Elia. She's the senior wife after all.

Small chance. Even smaller chance if Jon got some siblings, as was likely to happen. Furthermore, the relationship between Lyanna's and Elia's side of the family would have been chilly enough for a hundred blood feuds before Jon ever became a teenager.