The many battles of Tywin Lannister (and Jamie).

[TwiceBorn]

I guess everyone knows this:

https://i.chzbgr.com...6832/h9722A804/

Some chapters, especially POV's of Cersei and Jaime, build and impression that both Lannisters Tywin and Jaimie are seasoned warriors. But I think they are not. People often discuss whether Tywin is a great commander or not. How can they tell? We hardly know of any Lannister battles before Robert's death.

First of all: Tywin definately and absolutely was not in command during the Ninepenny King's War, because he was too young (no more than 16 at the time). We don't even know if he was there (unlike Selmy or Blackfish), and if he actually was, he would had been a squire in service of some knight (then possibly knighted on the occasion). He might have seen some action in the late years of war, but it is uncertain.

Tywin's greatest military achievement was putting down a Tarbeck/Reyne Rebellion. We don't know much about this event but it is generally assumed that there was a campaign, a battle (at least one but least than few) and one or two sieges. This is the foundation of Tywin's legend as a great general.

I am not sure if Tywin had fought any battles for Aerys the Mad. I suspect that he always used Kingsguard for that. Just like during the Siege of Duskendale and fight with the Kingswood Brotherhood.

During Robert's Rebellion Tywin famously did not participate until the Sack of King's Landing. This cannot count as a battle since there was no resistance.

The Greyjoy's Rebellion is kind of interesting. We don't know if Tywin was anywhere near when Ironborn had burnt his fleet at Lannisport. But this makes his participation during the Battle at Fair Island higly doubtful, since he had no ships. Unless, of course, you would consider an option of humiliated Tywin and his men, climbing onboard Stannis' ships. Imagine Great Tywin as a Stannis' bitch, patiently and humbly listening to him grinding teeth and being constantly lectured on "how you do things". Hilarious yet hardly possible.

What is more conceivable to me is that Tywin had a fall out with Baratheons at that point (“You had but one job! One!”) and did his usual thing: took offense, hid in the shadow of the Rock and plotted their ultimate demise. Which is quite nerdy, if you ask me, but apparently this was the real Tywin. We don't know if any Lannister forces crossed the sea to take part in siege of Pyke. Jaimie was there, but he was with Robert as a Kingsguard.

Tywin rested in Casterly Rock until the War of the Five Kings. During that time he failed to crush Bolton and fled from the Young Wolf after getting his ass kicked by the looser Edmure at the Fords. Then he kind of usurped the Blackwater victory from his own son, Tyrion. This makes his greatest achievements since the fall of Castamere.

Tyvin's score: 3 large battles and one large siege -confirmed, 1 small battle and one or two sieges - unconfirmed. You can hardly call this "a dozens of battles" which Cersei attributes to him and his men.

As for Jaimie:

He fought in Kingswood and got knigted. Sometime after that he’d become a Kingsguard for Aerys the Mad. He famously participated in… none of the battles of Robert's Rebellion. Actually he was kind of a hostage. Until the Invasion of Iron Islands he was perfectly idle. It is assumed that he fought during the siege of Pyke. His first experience as an independent commander was at the Golden Tooth and Riverrun. Fallowing that, he fell into ambush at Whispering Woods and spent most of the war not participating in any battle.

Jaimie's score: 2 small battles - confirmed, 2 large battles - confirmed, 1 large siege with assault on the walls - confirmed, 1 large siege - confirmed.

Conclusion: Jaimie is probably more experienced as a fighter and commander than Tywin. Yet most of his knowledge about the matters of war comes from the recent, painful lessons given by the Young Wolf. Both Lannisters are pretty inexperienced when compared to Lords of Storm, Knights of the Vale or Northemen. Also compare to Oberyn Martell (who has spent much of his life as a mercenary), or Blackfish, or Selmy (the latter two participating in three wars!).

On top of that Jaimie’s chapters are self-contradictory. For example: in his mind, he claims that he had lost so many horses during melee that he quit giving them names. However, what we know for sure is that he had exactly 4 occasions to get his horses killed underneath him. This would mean, that he either had to lose a couple of horses per battle (uncanny occurrence for such a great rider and tournament champion), or sucks at maths, or has some severe mental issues.

I place my bets at the last one. I think that due to inbreeding the Lannisters suffer from an acute mental disorder resulting in delusions of grandeur. It is quite obvious for Cersei (who is also paranoid) but it appears to affect Jaimie and perhaps even Tyrion to some extent.

Either this or GRRM's blunder.

[King Blackwood]

Hmm very interesting theory. I think we can just chalk it up to Martin just preferring to keep a lot of specific details vague, as he's said many times in interviews and SSMs.

[Chaircat Meow]

The information about Tywin having fought many battles actually comes from Robb in GoT, who had just consulted the northern war council. It is reaching somewhat to say this is the product of lannister delusions of grandeur.

You need to think of this relative to the amount of military experience people have the opportunity to build up in westeros. Aerys's reign was peaceful until the revolt, and then were was just the Greyjoy revolt in Robert's reign. Winning one small war, or fighting in one or two battles gives you a good reputation.

Look at Randyll Tarly. We only know he fought at Ashford, and no where else. The battle was indecisive but he is still called one the best soldiers in the realm.

Look at Stannis. Said to be renowed for his prowess as a battle commander but no 'battle' (not a siege) he ever fought in is even mentioned until affc (the first mention of Fair Isle, I think).

[Blede]

Melees are part of tourneys, that is where Jaime lost lots of horses (since he participates in every tourney he can, being the glory hound we all know and love, or hate).

[TwiceBorn]

Well, before 5 King's War Tywin did more fighting than Robb for sure.

The info I am referring to comes from Cersei: she describes Tywin's men as the experienced ones who "stood by him in half a hundred battles". I would very much like to see the original quote in English (this might be translatory mistake too).

I have considered the opportunities of gathering military experience by soldiers in Westeros. That is why I mentioned Oberyn Martell, Brynden Tully, Barristan Selmy. Also: Jon Arryn, Robert Baratheon, Ned stark - they all had far greater experience than Tywin.

As for Tarly - this topic is mainly about experience not about evaluation of skills or reputation. Tarly has high reputation I agree. He appears a skilled soldier I agree. But this is irrelevant. So far nobody claimed he had an experience of dozens of battles.

As for Stannis, sir you have underestimated our Only True King greatly (how typical, >sigh<). Not only had he survived the siege of the Storm's End but also captured Dragonstone, won decisive victory at Fair Island, subdued The Old Wykk for Robert, and took part in the assault on Pyke (if we agree that Selmy was there, then so was Stannis). Then he barely lost at Blackwater. Then he won at the Wall. Then he took Deepwood Motte. Then he marched on Winterfell. And he is far younger than Tywin, people usually forget how young Stannis is and how much he have achieved in a very short time. Compared to him Tywin was a mere rookie.

Melees are part of tourneys, that is where Jaime lost lots of horses (since he participates in every tourney he can, being the glory hound we all know and love, or hate).

Sorry Landed Knight, but no. Killing a horse in a tournament or duel is dishonorable and generally does not happen - you aim for the rider exclusively (unless your name is Bronn).

[Chaircat Meow]

Well, before 5 King's War Tywin did more fighting than Robb for sure.

The fact he's fought many battles though comes from Robb, as well as people like Cersei, and Robb has just come from his generals who presumably know about Tywin's military career.

The info I am referring to comes from Cersei: she describes Tywin's men as the experienced ones who "stood by him in half a hundred battles". I would very much like to see the original quote in English (this might be translatory mistake too).

It's hyperbole. It reflects the fact Tywin has fought in a number of engagements, both before and during the war of the Five Kings.

I have considered the opportunities of gathering military experience by soldiers in Westeros. That is why I mentioned Oberyn Martell, Brynden Tully, Barristan Selmy. Also: Jon Arryn, Robert Baratheon, Ned stark - they all had far greater experience than Tywin.

Not really, it depends how much there was to do in the Reyne/Tarbeck revolt.

As for Tarly - this topic is mainly about experience not about evaluation of skills or reputation. Tarly has high reputation I agree. He appears a skilled soldier I agree. But this is irrelevant. So far nobody claimed he had an experience of dozens of battles.

I think they are liable to go hand in hand. No one will know he's one of the most skilled soldiers in the realm unless he's been able to show off.

As for Stannis, sir you have underestimated our Only True King greatly (how typical, >sigh<). Not only had he survived the siege of the Storm's End but also captured Dragonstone, won decisive victory at Fair Island, subdued The Old Wykk for Robert, and took part in the assault on Pyke (if we agree that Selmy was there, then so was Stannis). Then he barely lost at Blackwater. Then he won at the Wall. Then he took Deepwood Motte. Then he marched on Winterfell. And he is far younger than Tywin, people usually forget how young Stannis is and how much he have achieved in a very short time. Compared to him Tywin was a mere rookie.

Stannis has a reputation as a good, experienced general before the war of the five kings. Unless you want to claim this is the product of delusions of grandeur by people with no reason to possess them, then you have to acknowledge that sometimes you just have to accept the words of characters in the book at face value rather than pick around trying to undermine them.

We are told Stannis is a seasoned battle commander in GoT. We never even hear of the only real battle he fought until Feast! GrrM didn't intend us to conclude Varys was delusional when he tells Ned about Stannis's prowess in battle in GoT.

The siege of SE wasn't a battle itself. The assault on Dragonstone wasn't hard, as the Targ fleet was in ruins and the garrison already wanted to sell out the Targ heirs (who'd fled). I don't think he was at Pyke either, he was at Old Wyck, and I can't recall when we are told that.

[Blede]

Sorry Landed Knight, but no. Killing a horse in a tournament or duel is dishonorable and generally does not happen - you aim for the rider exclusively (unless your name is Bronn).

I wasn't talking about jousting, but about tourney melees. They are not duels, but large "battles", with lots of participants. Bones and arms are usually broken, we are told, and Cersei plotted to have Robert killed during a melee, and making it look like an accident. If the death of a participant is usual enough to avoid suspicion, then horses might die usually as well.

The wiki also says that in many tournaments, the loser of a joust forfeits his horse and armour to the winner. Jaime might have lost horses that way too.

[TwiceBorn]

The fact he's fought many battles though comes from Robb, as well as people like Cersei, and Robb has just come from his generals who presumably know about Tywin's military career.

It's hyperbole. It reflects the fact Tywin has fought in a number of engagements, both before and during the war of the Five Kings.

Not really, it depends how much there was to do in the Reyne/Tarbeck revolt.

I think they are liable to go hand in hand. No one will know he's one of the most skilled soldiers in the realm unless he's been able to show off.

Stannis has a reputation as a good, experienced general before the war of the five kings. Unless you want to claim this is the product of delusions of grandeur by people with no reason to possess them, then you have to acknowledge that sometimes you just have to accept the words of characters in the book at face value rather than pick around trying to undermine them.

We are told Stannis is a seasoned battle commander in GoT. We never even hear of the only real battle he fought until Feast! GrrM didn't intend us to conclude Varys was delusional when he tells Ned about Stannis's prowess in battle in GoT.

The siege of SE wasn't a battle itself. The assault on Dragonstone wasn't hard, as the Targ fleet was in ruins and the garrison already wanted to sell out the Targ heirs (who'd fled). I don't think he was at Pyke either, he was at Old Wyck, and I can't recall when we are told that.

Sorry I just don't see where are you going with this reasoning. You say that Robb was convinced about Tywin's many battles. So? Considering what we know of Tywin, this implies Robb was misinformed. This is a matter of good propaganda which Lannisters happen to have. Just how many battles does it take to bring down two houses? How many? About as much as it took Robert to bring down half a kingdom? A little less?

Also it is underlined often and heavily that Tywin is avoidant when it comes to combat. He sends Kingsguards, he sends his pets, he sends his sons, and all his allies, he even sends Renly's ghost and when he has no more left to send he turns tail and flees to safety of a large keep, where he plots. What in a world would make us think that he was in a single battle beside the ones we know? For all we know about him, he is all about appearance, nothing more. And his shit is not gold despite some might say.

I would say that Cersei's possible hyperbole is so stretched that it becomes comical. It's just like Tywin's horse making poo before the Iron Throne - ridiculous side effect to the grandnoise entrance.

An as of Stannis or Tarly - does somebody - anybody in the book claim they have fought dozens, hundreds, oh so many battles its hard to keep a record? Claiming that Stannis and Tarly were famous victors during Rob's Reb and that they did good as soldiers is one thing, and irrational statements about the numbers is the other.

Unless, obviously, this is another "Shit, I've made the wall to high." thing!

I wasn't talking about jousting, but about tourney melees. They are not duels, but large "battles", with lots of participants. Bones and arms are usually broken, we are told, and Cersei plotted to have Robert killed during a melee, and making it look like an accident. If the death of a participant is usual enough to avoid suspicion, then horses might die usually as well.

The wiki also says that in many tournaments, the loser of a joust forfeits his horse and armour to the winner. Jaime might have lost horses that way too.

I am pretty convinced that Jaimie meant battles and dead horses. Besides I don't think he was the tourney melee type like Robert.

[Lonin]

GRRM does not supply complete biography for his characters - he has other characters note or comment on a characters abilities/traits/history. GRRM also does not supply complete battle details to allow us to judge various characters. There must have been (I believe that GRRM mentioned it as well) battles/fighting that is not mentioned in the books.

We, the reader, are told that Tywin, Randyll Tarley, Stannis and others are good battle commanders. No character claims that they are not. The evidence to support the claims is not provided by GRRM. Fighters like Jaime, Gregor, Sandor, Garlan, Oberyn and others are noted to be great/good with little evidence to support the claim. Why is Ned noted as honorable? little information is supplied as to how Ned got his reputation for being honorable.

[Blede]

I am pretty convinced that Jaimie meant battles and dead horses. Besides I don't think he was the tourney melee type like Robert.

He said "I've fought in tourneys, melees and battles throughout the Seven Kingdoms". Besides, he is known as the best swordsman in the Seven Kingdoms, not the best jouster, that reputation must come from somewhere. He wasn't a melee only type like Robert, but surely he liked that too.

[corbon]

sometimes you just have to accept the words of characters in the book at face value rather than pick around trying to undermine them.

This. Or rather, you can try to pick around and undermine them, but you need something 'positive' to succeed in undermining them.

Generally speaking they have access to a heck of a lot of data we've never heard of.

That doesn't make them 100% reliable, so you have to think how would someone know this and how would they have access to this information, do they have a personal bias, is there any reason for them to be lying and does this information 'match' with other things we are told or see.

The answer here is that there are too many independent sources for Tywin's and Jaime's military experience, with no reason to lie and no countervailing data.

For example, we know Jaime participated in the campaign against the Smiling Knight and the Kingswood Brotherhood. We only know of one 'battle' in that campaign, yet we also know that it went on for a long time as it would have taken time for Barristan's stratagem of treating the peasants well and addressing their concerns to reap the rewards of shifting their loyalties from the Brotherhood to the Crown.

So how many other 'battles' (which could be as few as 50 men on either side) were in that campaign?

And how many other similar campaigns were there, that haven't made it into our record.

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

Characters who have access to a lot more information than we do, and no reason to lie, from both sides, seem to agree.

Seems pretty unlikely they are wrong.

[TwiceBorn]

The point is... we actually DO KNOW the upper limit of Tywin's battlescore, we just don't know the lower limit. In other words we do know that he is less experienced than many other lords, because we do know that he famously did not participate in many major events. The point is he might be even less experienced, but is unlikely that he was more experienced or even at the same level.

Unless there was some major conflict like "Tywis Great War with Tyrosh" involwing Tywin himself but excluding any other lord in Westeros. Did Tywin conquer any free cities during Aerys reign? Guess not. Perhaps he was serving in a mercenary company for years? Or founded one? What do you say? No.

[Chaircat Meow]

I don't know what a battle score is. Number of 'battles.' We don't know that.

It is true his military reputation is many years cold, but we don't know what happened with the Reynes/Tarbecks, so you're just using speculation to undermine an impression given by many unbiased sources.

[Erkan12]

Not just Tyrion, i think Tywin usurps Jaime's great victory against Edmure. He just lost it against Edmure and failed about going his home(Westerlands). So Jaime is much better about winning. Tywin is too passive, cautious yes but this passiveness almost cost him losing the Westerlands, he is very lucky that Tyrells saved his ass.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

You've got to tak the number of battles most people fought in their lives into account. Big battles number less than five for an entire lifetime quite often. For example the Black Prince, known for his military exploits, fought two field battles in his entire life. The Northmen considering Tywin (and Jaime) as experienced makes sense in that light, especially compared to 14 year old Robb Stark. Note that they don't consider them to be exceptionally skilled, only experienced!

I agree on Tywin snatching the glory and never successfully matching up against even a slightly inferior enemy. He took the credit for the work of others or curbstomped enemies at least a full weight class beneath him. The rest is Lannister propaganda, something Tywin invested a lot of effort in.

[Undead Ned With No Head]

I'm not sure about this bit isn't their some small scale conflicts we don't actually know about before book 1.

[TheCrannogDweller]

The siege of SE wasn't a battle itself. The assault on Dragonstone wasn't hard, as the Targ fleet was in ruins and the garrison already wanted to sell out the Targ heirs (who'd fled). I don't think he was at Pyke either, he was at Old Wyck, and I can't recall when we are told that.

Tywin probably had almost the entire Westerlands behind him when he crushed the Reynes and the Tarbecks. So that wasn't much of a battle.

The Northerners' attack at the Green Fork was a faint, rather than a real battle.

Most of the fighting at the Blackwater was done by Garlan Tyrell's van.

See, this logic can cut both ways.

I do not believe Tywin is as good a commander as he is painted. Experienced, yes. Exceptional, no.

[protar]

Tywin probably had almost the entire Westerlands behind him when he crushed the Reynes and the Tarbecks. So that wasn't much of a battle.

The Northerners' attack at the Green Fork was a faint, rather than a real battle.

Most of the fighting at the Blackwater was done by Garlan Tyrell's van.

See, this logic can cut both ways.

I do not believe Tywin is as good a commander as he is painted. Experienced, yes. Exceptional, no.

In all fairness the Battle of the Green Fork was not just a feint. In the show yes were just a few thousand men were sent off essentially to die. In the books Robb sends the bulk of his forces under one of his most seasoned commanders. Robb fully intended to win that battle, he just set it up so even if he didn't it worked somewhat in his favour.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

In all fairness the Battle of the Green Fork was not just a feint. In the show yes were just a few thousand men were sent off essentially to die. In the books Robb sends the bulk of his forces under one of his most seasoned commanders. Robb fully intended to win that battle, he just set it up so even if he didn't it worked somewhat in his favour.

Not exactly to win. Not to be sacrificed either, but Robb never expected Roose to have a serious chance at winning. And given Roose's force, that was sensible. 75% Tywin's number, but lacking the quality part in the cavalry, the actual forces round up more like 1:3 or 1:2. Enough to give battle and avoid a massacre, but not enough to pose a serious threat.

Remember that Robb never blames Roose for losing that battle or expresses discomfort with it. It was the expected result.

[The Fallen]

To OP:

As some posters have said, GRRM has said that there were many skirmishes that happened during Robert's Rebellion that we haven't read about. Maybe never will. We have to assume the same is true for Tywin. I'm no Tywin fan and would love to agree with your characterizations of Tywin as not having experience and being a coward. But I don't necessarily agree with them. Interestingly, with regards to Tywin's bravery, I think he can come off as a bully. Ned has this to say about Tywin and the Lannisters:

"The Lannisters are merciless in the face of weakness, as Aerys Targaryen learned to his sorrow, but they would not dare attack the north without all the power of the realm behind them,

I don't think he's personally a coward, he just leads from the back. He's not Robert, Ned, Tarly or Robb, who lead from the front. But plenty of other commanders stay behind the front lines.

All in all, I would say Tywin has gotten experience from skirmishes and the like. Also, I would think that fighting in one war would be enough experience for anyone.

The problem with Tywin is that his reputation from fans far exceeds how he's viewed in the books. In Westeros, the other lords don't fawn over him. I mean Tywin has been sitting in Casterly Rock for over a decade and a half before the Wot5K. He's just another lord. A rich, powerful and formidable lord, to be sure. But not the 'G.O.A.T.' fans make him out to be.