The many battles of Tywin Lannister (and Jamie).

[The Fallen]

In all fairness the Battle of the Green Fork was not just a feint. In the show yes were just a few thousand men were sent off essentially to die. In the books Robb sends the bulk of his forces under one of his most seasoned commanders. Robb fully intended to win that battle, he just set it up so even if he didn't it worked somewhat in his favour.

Robb wanted someone cautious. Hence why he didn't have the Greatjon leading the army. He knew the Greatjon would give battle and try to win, and in the process get the whole army killed. Whereas Roose would give enough battle to do the job, but minimize the damage to the army.

[Gurkhal]

Gotto to disagree with this. Tywin is far from "just another lord" just like say Stannis or Robb are far from "just another lord".

Not exactly to win. Not to be sacrificed either, but Robb never expected Roose to have a serious chance at winning. And given Roose's force, that was sensible. 75% Tywin's number, but lacking the quality part in the cavalry, the actual forces round up more like 1:3 or 1:2. Enough to give battle and avoid a massacre, but not enough to pose a serious threat.

Remember that Robb never blames Roose for losing that battle or expresses discomfort with it. It was the expected result.

Ok, but this is kind of the definition of winning. Lord Bolton was forced to retreat from the field and supposedly took larger casualties than the Westermen. If this isn't a victory then I don't know what is defined as one.

[King Aerys the Just]

The half a hundred battles thing might also be including sieges and skirmishes and other smaller engagements that Tywin took part in, not just the large field battles with thousands of men on each side. I don't think Cersei is an expert on military terminology.

[Axrendale]

To add on to what others have already already said, Cersei's stray line about Tywin participating in "half a hundred battles" is just a piece of hyperbole, and it's not even one that's restricted to him. At another point in the series, Catelyn Stark makes reference to her uncle Brynden Blackflish being the veteran of a similar number of engagements - almost certainly exgerrated, again.

As far as Tywin's actual military record goes, other posts have already summed it up quite adequately. The main part of his (pre-AGOT) reputation as general obviously rests on the events of the Reyne/Tarbeck rebellion, an event in which he clearly distinguished himself handily, even if very few of the details have been revealed to the reader (I suspect that we'll learn more about the destruction of Castamere, at the very least, at some point in the last two books).

In terms of evaluating his record from the WotFK, I'd reckon it more or less as follows: he's a better-than-average battle tactician, a cunning but not infallible theatre strategist, and an excellent grand strategist.

If we pay the game of ranking the various generals in the series by their military ability and accomplishments, then my take would be to sort them roughly into tiers, with the first tier being made up of Robb, Robert, Randyll Tarly, and Stannis; Tywin going in the second tier with Ned; and Jaime probably belonging to the third tier.

Tywin's true strength is not as a general, but rather as a politician - in that field he's arguably the best amongst all of the 'high lord' type figures in the series (Roose Bolton and Doran Martell probably being the closest competition).

[Axrendale]

The problem with Tywin is that his reputation from fans far exceeds how he's viewed in the books. In Westeros, the other lords don't fawn over him. I mean Tywin has been sitting in Casterly Rock for over a decade and a half before the Wot5K. He's just another lord. A rich, powerful and formidable lord, to be sure. But not the 'G.O.A.T.' fans make him out to be.

The opposite problem is true as well - a number of readers go too far in equating Tywin's undeniable monstrousness as a person with being "overrated" as a political figure in the series.

The above is a case in point. Tywin is definitely not "just another lord" - he is referred to repeatedly, starting in AGOT, as the "most powerful lord in the Seven Kingdoms" - and not just by Lannisters, either.

There's a reason that after he died, characters belonging to pretty much every anti-Lannister faction in existence all expressed the opinion that their chances of success had just shot up exponentially.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

Ok, but this is kind of the definition of winning. Lord Bolton was forced to retreat from the field and supposedly took larger casualties than the Westermen. If this isn't a victory then I don't know what is defined as one.

How relates that to what I wrote? Of course Tywin won, it was what everybody expected, based on the forces arranged. It was what Robb planned for.

If we pay the game of ranking the various generals in the series by their military ability and accomplishments, then my take would be to sort them roughly into tiers, with the first tier being made up of Robb, Robert, Randyll Tarly, and Stannis; Tywin going in the second tier with Ned; and Jaime probably belonging to the third tier.

Disagree on Ned, and maybe on Robert. The inner circle of the Rebellion places the responsibility for it's successes straight on the shoulders of Ned (and Jon Arryn). The ones singing Robert's praise are the ones not privy to the war councils of the rebels and to a large part not even adult. Ned Stark was definitely the better general, he just avoided the spotlight.

That ties into a line of mentor-pupil relations between Jon Arryn - Ned Stark and Ned Stark - Robb Stark (and Jon Snow).

Jaime's shooting for second tier now after he lost his hand and started to use his brains instead.

[Gurkhal]

How relates that to what I wrote? Of course Tywin won, it was what everybody expected, based on the forces arranged. It was what Robb planned for.

Disagree on Ned, and maybe on Robert. The inner circle of the Rebellion places the responsibility for it's successes straight on the shoulders of Ned (and Jon Arryn). The ones singing Robert's praise are the ones not privy to the war councils of the rebels and to a large part not even adult. Ned Stark was definitely the better general, he just avoided the spotlight.

That ties into a line of mentor-pupil relations between Jon Arryn - Ned Stark and Ned Stark - Robb Stark (and Jon Snow).

Jaime's shooting for second tier now after he lost his hand and started to use his brains instead.

I thought that you meant that since lord Bolton wasn't supposed to win and was at a disadvantage then it don't count as a victory for Tywin, despite him inflicting casualties on the Northmen, taking noble prisoners and driving them from the field. I apologize if I misunderstood you.

[Erkan12]

To add on to what others have already already said, Cersei's stray line about Tywin participating in "half a hundred battles" is just a piece of hyperbole, and it's not even one that's restricted to him. At another point in the series, Catelyn Stark makes reference to her uncle Brynden Blackflish being the veteran of a similar number of engagements - almost certainly exgerrated, again.

As far as Tywin's actual military record goes, other posts have already summed it up quite adequately. The main part of his (pre-AGOT) reputation as general obviously rests on the events of the Reyne/Tarbeck rebellion, an event in which he clearly distinguished himself handily, even if very few of the details have been revealed to the reader (I suspect that we'll learn more about the destruction of Castamere, at the very least, at some point in the last two books).

In terms of evaluating his record from the WotFK, I'd reckon it more or less as follows: he's a better-than-average battle tactician, a cunning but not infallible theatre strategist, and an excellent grand strategist.

If we pay the game of ranking the various generals in the series by their military ability and accomplishments, then my take would be to sort them roughly into tiers, with the first tier being made up of Robb, Robert, Randyll Tarly, and Stannis; Tywin going in the second tier with Ned; and Jaime probably belonging to the third tier.

Tywin's true strength is not as a general, but rather as a politician - in that field he's arguably the best amongst all of the 'high lord' type figures in the series (Roose Bolton and Doran Martell probably being the closest competition).

I agree but not Robert. There is no info about his tactical, strategical battle field accomplishments. He lost Randyll Tarly. at Greyjoy Rebellion, Stannis won the sea battle and at the Bells, he says Ned won it for him. His greatest wins are winning 3 battle at a day (tirelessly), defeating 6 knight at the Bells (again tirelessly) and defeating Rhaegar the Rapist (considerable as good warrior) at the Trident. Also he afraid of Dothraki invasion, this threat seems to me as bullshit and i can say this proves his lack of strategic, tactical talent.

Great leader, Great warrior but it seems Ned, Jon Arryn and Hoster made the tactical and strategical decisions. He was like face of the Rebellion, his Targaryen blood was excuse for rebellion and surely Elite warrior.

[protar]

Not exactly to win. Not to be sacrificed either, but Robb never expected Roose to have a serious chance at winning. And given Roose's force, that was sensible. 75% Tywin's number, but lacking the quality part in the cavalry, the actual forces round up more like 1:3 or 1:2. Enough to give battle and avoid a massacre, but not enough to pose a serious threat.

Remember that Robb never blames Roose for losing that battle or expresses discomfort with it. It was the expected result.

It was the expected result yes, but Robb wasn't just throwing troops away. He was going to try to win the battle if he could, but if he didn't it was no biggie.

[Axrendale]

Disagree on Ned, and maybe on Robert. The inner circle of the Rebellion places the responsibility for it's successes straight on the shoulders of Ned (and Jon Arryn). The ones singing Robert's praise are the ones not privy to the war councils of the rebels and to a large part not even adult. Ned Stark was definitely the better general, he just avoided the spotlight.

That ties into a line of mentor-pupil relations between Jon Arryn - Ned Stark and Ned Stark - Robb Stark (and Jon Snow).

From my reading, they do nothing of the sort.

Pretty much every account that we have of the rebellion figures the Battle of the Trident as being the decisive engagement of the conflict, and all evidence points to Robert deserving the lion's share of the credit for that victory - including the thoughts of Ned himself.

I see Ned as having been basically the Blackfish to Robert's Robb, with Jon Arryen fulfilling a similar function to Catelyn.

[Bronn Urgandy]

If Twyin Lannister was 16 during the nine-penny kings war then he's already Lord of Casterly Rock I think, since he was young when he took over (one of the Lannisters mentions how young he was when he paraded Tytos' mistress through the streets and put down the rebellion, which likely started due to his fathers weakness and his extreme youth) so if the Lannisters participate in the nine-penny kings war, then he was no doubt commanding troops. Same situation as Robb, just a boy, but now a Lord, so he's leading his men and vassals.

Wouldn't shock me at all to learn he's fought fifty or more, Westerosi society seems to call the act of putting down a bunch of bandits as some sort of famous battle (particularly in the area it is fought in, and rightly so)

[Bright Blue Eyes]

I thought that you meant that since lord Bolton wasn't supposed to win and was at a disadvantage then it don't count as a victory for Tywin, despite him inflicting casualties on the Northmen, taking noble prisoners and driving them from the field. I apologize if I misunderstood you.

Partially. Of course it was a victory, but not something to base a reputation of an outstanding commander on it due to the lack of a challenge.

It was the expected result yes, but Robb wasn't just throwing troops away. He was going to try to win the battle if he could, but if he didn't it was no biggie.

Uh yes? That's what I wrote? Well, with a bit of an emphasis on the "no biggie" as the most likely result expected by Robb.

From my reading, they do nothing of the sort.

Pretty much every account that we have of the rebellion figures the Battle of the Trident as being the decisive engagement of the conflict, and all evidence points to Robert deserving the lion's share of the credit for that victory - including the thoughts of Ned himself.

I see Ned as having been basically the Blackfish to Robert's Robb, with Jon Arryen fulfilling a similar function to Catelyn.

Robert clearly attributes the victory in the Rebellion to "Ned, Ned and Jon Arryn". Paraphrased, but emphasis correct.

Cat judges Renley as just like Robert, but without Ned holding him back. And lacking. First hand estimation of Robert's weaknesses thanks to Ned, not somebody to brag about himself.

JonCon attributes the Battle of the Bells to Ned's command (and Hoster Tully).

Ned laudes Robert's prowess at the Trident as a combatant, not as a commander.

Even Tywin Lannister rates Ned higher.

On the other hand, the accounts of Robert's prowess as a commander comes from people like Lord Grandison, grandchild of the Lord Grandison beaten by Robert at Summerhall. A child at the time, not even present at the battle and being charmed by the charismatic Robert in hindsight. That's the typical witness for Robert's prowess as a commander.

As Stannis points out, Robert could piss in their cups and they'd declare it to be the best wine they ever tasted. And complains about all the made-up stories and boasts.

To sum it up, the competent commanders with first-hand knowledge of the Rebellion value stoic, unpretentious Ned Stark in the far away North, while the new generation growing up with the stories of the Rebellion value charismatic Robert, the King at the center of the noble's world.

If Twyin Lannister was 16 during the nine-penny kings war then he's already Lord of Casterly Rock I think, since he was young when he took over (one of the Lannisters mentions how young he was when he paraded Tytos' mistress through the streets and put down the rebellion, which likely started due to his fathers weakness and his extreme youth) so if the Lannisters participate in the nine-penny kings war, then he was no doubt commanding troops. Same situation as Robb, just a boy, but now a Lord, so he's leading his men and vassals.

Wouldn't shock me at all to learn he's fought fifty or more, Westerosi society seems to call the act of putting down a bunch of bandits as some sort of famous battle (particularly in the area it is fought in, and rightly so)

He didn't participate and he wasn't Lord of Casterly Rock. He's half a generation younger than Jon Arryn, Hoster and Brynden Tully, exactly that half of a generation that prevented him from participating.

Furthermore, he wasn't Lord for quite some time, as he crushed the Reynes and Tarbecks and became Hand while his father still lived.

[The Fallen]

The opposite problem is true as well - a number of readers go too far in equating Tywin's undeniable monstrousness as a person with being "overrated" as a political figure in the series.

The above is a case in point. Tywin is definitely not "just another lord" - he is referred to repeatedly, starting in AGOT, as the "most powerful lord in the Seven Kingdoms" - and not just by Lannisters, either.

There's a reason that after he died, characters belonging to pretty much every anti-Lannister faction in existence all expressed the opinion that their chances of success had just shot up exponentially.

I also said this about him:

He's just another lord. A rich, powerful and formidable lord, to be sure.

Maybe "just another lord" sounds worse than what I intended. But I'm looking at Tywin from the eyes of Ned, Edmure, the Blackfish, etc... I probably should have mentioned that it's in reference to where he stands (he's a Lord Paramount just like six other lords), how the aforementioned view him. Yes, he's formidable. But I never got the sense that other lords in the realm feared him the way fans make him out to be. Maybe small lords, but definitely not lords like Vance, Piper, Royce, Bolton, Frey, Tyrell, Baratheon, etc...

Gotto to disagree with this. Tywin is far from "just another lord" just like say Stannis or Robb are far from "just another lord".

He's on the same level as the guys you mention. In that sense, he's just another lord. Robb, Stannis, Doran, Hoster; those guys don't view Tywin as being above them. Richer? Yes. Powerful? Yes. But so are they. (Not as rich, obviously.)

[The Fallen]

From my reading, they do nothing of the sort.

Pretty much every account that we have of the rebellion figures the Battle of the Trident as being the decisive engagement of the conflict, and all evidence points to Robert deserving the lion's share of the credit for that victory - including the thoughts of Ned himself.

I see Ned as having been basically the Blackfish to Robert's Robb, with Jon Arryen fulfilling a similar function to Catelyn.

Ned is talking about Robert defeating Rhaegar. He realizes that finished the Battle of the Trident. Ned credits Robert and Robert credits Ned. I would say we have to give Ned the same respect we give Robert. I don't see Ned as the Blackfish to Robert's Robb. Ned led the most troops and was tabbed with finishing off the rebellion (King's Landing and Storm's End).

[TheCrannogDweller]

Robert clearly attributes the victory in the Rebellion to "Ned, Ned and Jon Arryn". Paraphrased, but emphasis correct.

JonCon attributes the Battle of the Bells to Ned's command (and Hoster Tully).

Even Tywin Lannister rates Ned higher.

That ties into a line of mentor-pupil relations between Jon Arryn - Ned Stark and Ned Stark - Robb Stark (and Jon Snow).

Ever since I delved a little deeper into the Rebellion, I've always thought that Jon Arryn was the brains behind the whole operation, He was obviously the diplomatic heavyweight behind the whole thing (further proven by his tenure as Hand), but if what you say is true, then his tactical prowess should be reconsidered?

Can we put the three in a mold? Robert - the warrior, Ned - the tactician, Jon - the strategist and diplomat?

[Bright Blue Eyes]

Ever since I delved a little deeper into the Rebellion, I've always thought that Jon Arryn was the brains behind the whole operation, He was obviously the diplomatic heavyweight behind the whole thing (further proven by his tenure as Hand), but if what you say is true, then his tactical prowess should be reconsidered?

Can we put the three in a mold? Robert - the warrior, Ned - the tactician, Jon - the strategist and diplomat?

Jon Arryn and Ned Stark were surely the two leading generals, with Hoster Tully and Robert Baratheon deferring to them.

On the mold, not exactly. Robert the warrior, yes, as well as a charismatic guy who could bridge enmities by personality alone. But distinguishing between Ned and Jon is more difficult. Jon was pretty much the role model for Ned, apart from the cultural differences they are the same guy. Outstanding commanders thanks to clear thinking and dedication and admirable administrators and diplomats on a systematic approach as opposed to Robert's charisma. Yes, Ned was an admirable administrator and diplomat - in the North, thanks to the cultural differences I mentioned. The loyalty and admiration of the Northmen show that pretty clearly, despite the trainwreck he was involved in down south.

[Castellan]

I read the whole series without thinking that either of them were great warriors as in military commanders. Tywin seems competent but his main reputation is for ruthlessness in other settings - like vengeance on anyone who threatens or betrays him - and for being a good hand to Aerys. Jaime is a great individual fighter and tourney champion but he was not involved in Roberts rebellion and has only taken part in putting down the Greyjoy rebellion. As a commander he seems competent too but is outwitted by Blackfysh, who knows his flaws, and tempts him into sorties that end up with him being captured. Its pretty clear experience has a lot to do with skill in command. At Jaime's war council at Riverrun the old blind lord gave sounder council than anyone else, telling them the Blackfysh would not be fooled by tricks.

[Erkan12]

I read the whole series without thinking that either of them were great warriors as in military commanders. Tywin seems competent but his main reputation is for ruthlessness in other settings - like vengeance on anyone who threatens or betrays him - and for being a good hand to Aerys. Jaime is a great individual fighter and tourney champion but he was not involved in Roberts rebellion and has only taken part in putting down the Greyjoy rebellion. As a commander he seems competent too but is outwitted by Blackfysh, who knows his flaws, and tempts him into sorties that end up with him being captured. Its pretty clear experience has a lot to do with skill in command. At Jaime's war council at Riverrun the old blind lord gave sounder council than anyone else, telling them the Blackfysh would not be fooled by tricks.

Blackfish just told to Robb how Jaime is. That was Robb's plan, also Robb thought Tywin would not deceived by suprise attack. The plans made by Robb. Blackfish sure gave his council but he was ears and eyes of Robb, not his brain like Tywin to Joffrey.