Heresy 80

[Amoracchius]

She made it sound a simple thing, and easy. They need never know how difficult it had been, or how much it had cost her. That was a lesson Melisandre had learned long before Asshai: the more effortless the sorcery appears, the more men fear the sorcerer.

That's from Melisandre's POV, the emphasis being on "long before Asshai". There can not be a "long before" to a place that you are native too. The implication being that she went to Asshai at some point in order to learn magic.

That's interesting, I'd missed that bit and thought she was from there originally. I guess then the question becomes, "Why did she go to Asshai?"

As you say, she probably went to Asshai to learn magic, but a lot of her magic seems related to her faith (visions in the flames, shadow babies, etc.) so it still seems likely that R'hllor is worshiped there. It's strongly implied that she was sold into slavery ("Lot Seven"), most likely to serve in a Red Temple, like the ones we see in ADWD. If that's the case, how did she end up in Asshai if it wasn't somehow related to serving R'hllor? Also, do we have any reason to doubt her about the AA story being recorded there?

The simplest explanation, to me at least, is that there are R'hllor worshipers in Asshai and Melisandre studied magic related to their faith with them there.

[LynnS]

I still have a great deal of trouble believing that a 700 foot high, 300 mile long structure is there as an ornament for the demarcation of realms. I understand that for millenia it was smaller with only one castle on it and that the fortifications were added at a later time so the true purpose was most probably lost somewhere in the mythos but even an imaginary line on a map, let alone a small physical boundary, signifies to one extent or another this is what is defensible by me and mine.

Inherent to a hinge is the property of opening and closing, which means there is reason for which closing off is necessary otherwise an archway would suffice. In other words if you don't need a door or a wall you don't build one.

Thank you Yield. That's very kind. I should say that I don't think there is a particular god. The old gods and the cold gods, or their greenseer counterparts are god-like. The wiernet may be the only real source of magic or lore about magic or the many faces of god. Magic users, priests, practioners using particular elements of natural magic which normally exists in harmony or balance. Necromancy breaks apart the elements and disrupts the balance. An example would be obsidion or fire frozen in stone (earth, fire ice).

I wonder if all sources of prophecy come from the weirnet and if the wall blocks or reduces access to this knowledge the farther one is from the source. That Mel stares into the flames and receives visions could result from a state of self-hypnosis creating a different state of consciousness, opening the mind to the weirnet, greenseers, etc. Looking into the fire could be considered a waking dream.

Mel hints at her use of hypnosis as a low level of glamor or as a means of mesmerizing the crowds. She uses voice cues like a hypnotist which may explain why Mance and Jon heard something different when she dissolved Mance's glamor. .She uses powders and incense as we have seen with Arya in the House of Black and White. These may have a mild narcotic affect, soporific or calming effect or open the mind to the otherword as described when Bran eats the weirwood paste and Dany drinks Shade of the Evening. Either way the consciousness is altered. It's also interesting that crystals are used to induce a hypnotic state.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8oDgEKPQbD4

.

[Black Crow]

It is interesting that if we consider both the books & GRRM Comments as being "Cannon" that we have been given two totally different images of what Others look like:

In all honesty, he's been writing this for over 20 years now and perhaps a lot longer if we admit earlier work like the Ice Dragon and that one you found the other day. I'd be inclined to interpret the apparent contradictions as his own modifying how he sees them rather than any cunning plan to deceive. If you can get a hold of that first volume of the comic book version (I don't have it otherwise I'd do a bit of heroic transcription) which has the essays by Patterson on how he depicted various characters, the whole process of creating the Others is interesting. I've only ever quoted the juicy bits but its evident that GRRM had great trouble in conveying exactly what he wanted and while he liked the Piccacio version and got Patterson to completely change the original concept sketches, its not hard to come away with the feeling that GRRM still wasn't completely satisfied. So notwithstanding at least three "sanctioned" realisations (and the HBO weirwood faces), I think at this stage we still need to rely on the text both in the book and the Sidhe email.

In fairness I'd also mention a practical point. For my sins I also happen to be a military historian and as such am required by publishers from time to time to brief illustrators. Sometimes this can be pretty straightforward, especially if its an artist I know and have worked with before, but at the end of the day I have to be specific as to what's required and I also have to be comprehensive. Its not enough to say that a particular figure should have a red coat, I have to supply references to show the style, the buttons, the lining and so on. The same goes for everything else he's wearing or carrying, and how his hair is cut or not and whether he has a beard or a moustache and a whole myriad of other details. Now I can do that because I'm working off period artefacts, documents and illustrations. It can be a pain assembling it and sometimes a conscious decision has to be made on how to fudge the unknown. Its a big job getting it right.

GRRM on the other hand has none of that. He has in his mind that 'The Others are not dead. They are strange, beautiful… think, oh… the Sidhe made of ice, something like that… a different sort of life… inhuman, elegant, dangerous. but that's not a specification, but a concept and the artist has to do his best using his own imagination. GRRM may well say, yeah, something like that or praise bits of it, but at the end of the day its the artist's work, not his.

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

Anybody around here ever feel a bit suspicious of Gilly? She, too, is Craster's child... and while she out and out tells us that she's named "for the Gillyflower," that could very well be a "red herring." There are other associations for the name Gilly that would hint at ulterior motives, and a possible hidden allegiance.

See for instance....

(1) Ghilli Dhu of Scottish folklore - whose name translated literally means "Dark Servant" ; or

(2) this old Scots word for hunter's servant or gamekeeper ; and

(3) the Ghillie suit - camoflauge clothing designed to conceal hunters and snipers; or maybe even

(4) these dancing shoes - seems like a stretch, but what is a "wood dancer" anyway? (Luwin didn't actually tell us)


Aside from the above links... what are the chances that Gilly herself is a banshee (she cries a lot after leaving the Wall, but recovers her composure as soon as Maester Aemon dies) , or a manifestation of The_Morrígan (recall that Sam is confronted by 3 of Craster's wives together who convince him to take Gilly and her child to the Wall).

Just food for thought... (happy Friday).

[ETA: I've also been intrigued by the historical significance of the Gilliflower... which was used as a token payment in order to seal a contract (look up "peppercorn rent"). I wonder if by accepting Gilly as traveling companion, Sam unwittingly accepted payment and sealed a bargain with Craster's wives (or whoever they might represent)...]

[Black Crow]

I wonder if all sources of prophecy come from the weirnet and if the wall blocks or reduces access to this knowledge the farther one is from the source. That Mel stares into the flames and receives visions could result from a state of self-hypnosis creating a different state of consciousness, opening the mind to the weirnet, greenseers, etc. Looking into the fire could be considered a waking dream.

I still like the idea that Mel is trying to tune into her usual channel, but is instead picking up the much stronger local one. As I've said there is a certain expectation amongst non-heretics that asking for her King/Azor Ahai and seeing Snow is proof that our Jon is Azor Ahai, but of course she also encounters Bloodraven and Bran - and significantly the first appears to be looking at her and the other howls.

Perhaps what we're actually seeing here is derision. She calls to R'hllor to show her King, and instead she basically gets the weirwood boys breaking in to say Yah Boo, R'hllor can stuff himself up where the sun don't shine because you're in our place now and this is our king.

[Black Crow]

Aside from the above links... what are the chances that Gilly herself is a banshee (she cries a lot after leaving the Wall, but recovers her composure as soon as Maester Aemon dies) , or a manifestation of The_Morrígan (recall that Sam is confronted by 3 of Craster's wives together who convince him to take Gilly and her child to the Wall).

Just food for thought... (happy Friday).

[ETA: I've also been intrigued by the historical significance of the Gilliflower... which was used as a token payment in order to seal a contract (look up "peppercorn rent"). I wonder if by accepting Gilly as traveling companion, Sam unwittingly accepted payment and sealed a bargain with Craster's wives (or whoever they might represent)...]

Oooh, a very nice catch indeed; Gilly the maiden; her mother; and a crone.

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

[ETA: I've also been intrigued by the historical significance of the Gilliflower... which was used as a token payment in order to seal a contract (look up "peppercorn rent"). I wonder if by accepting Gilly as traveling companion, Sam unwittingly accepted payment and sealed a bargain with Craster's wives (or whoever they might represent)...]

Oh... to follow up on the "peppercorn rent" notion - if Sam did strike a bargain (knowingly or not), then such an agreement might allow an otherwise forbidden creature to pass the wards built into the Wall. Whether that creature is Gilly herself... or her son (who now remains at the Wall due to Jon's well-intentioned swap)... is debatable.

Wow. Suddenly I am suspicious of Gilly's son, and what he might already be. Nevermind that we all think he's been "saved" from the Others... what if he already is one? There he sits - right at the Wall, unnamed (but nicknamed "Monster" by Val).

Folks, I think we have a wild card at Castle Black and we didn't even know it. :eek:

[ETA: Very suspicious!]

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

Oooh, a very nice catch indeed; Gilly the maiden; her mother; and a crone.

Yes - I hadn't connected that phrasing in my mind, but you're right: the phrasing fits the scene quite nicely. This idea also fits with my earlier notion that Craster's wives were likely spæwīves...

[Black Crow]

While we're on matters Celtic again, its worth marrying that Sidhe reference in relation to the Others with the Hescox illustration depicting hoods with horns and things, and traditional depictions of the Sidhe as Herne the Hunter and the Wild Hunt.

[#Fire and Blood]

What is also interesting about Bran, is he is the first POV we get in the first book. It makes sense that he would be the first and last chapter as whatever is going to happen with him is going to be very very significant and probably something that can tie the entire thing up. Should be pretty interesting.

[Capon Breath]

Oooh, a very nice catch indeed; Gilly the maiden; her mother; and a crone.

Minor point. You Can't be a maiden if you're having a child.

[Black Crow]

Ah but it depends how strictly you define it; it can be used just for a fair and comely young girl, she doesn't necessairly have to he chaste. In this particular case it may alsp be significant that not only do we have the girl and her mother, but its the crone who tells us what's happening and why.

[Capon Breath]

Hmmm, maids & maidenheads get a lt of coverage in ASOIAF, I'd say there's a pretty clear definition of what it means in GRRMs world.

Also, although I'm not familiar with the Morrigan I'm guessing the the 3 aspects represent the 3 stages of a "woman's life".

Maid - pre being a mum

Mother - erm as a mother

Crone - Grandmother passing on the wisdom to a mum.

Any woman will confirm, a woman becomes a mother the day she falls pregnant, it's only us men who don't become dads til the baby is born.

[wolfmaid7]

Going back to GRRM's statement on the building of the Wall:

September 09, 2000

The Wall

I am having discussions about the Wall. Some think that it is an impossibility for a structure of that size to remain standing if it is made from ice alone. Personally I think that the wall started of a lot smaller and slowly grew larger over the centuries as the black brothers trampled layer after layer of blue metal or small stones across the top. If that is the case then the wall is probably a mixture of crushed rocks and ice, which in my opinion would be a VERY sturdy construction, as demonstrated by Jon when he filled the barrels with water and used them to crush the battering ram.

Blue metal? What does he mean? That the brothers used blue metal or that the Wall could be seen as analogous to blue metal trampled over the centuries by the brothers. I think he is referring to ice as blue metal; a superconductor of magic working both as a resistor and a conductor and as a magnetic attractor of magic.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superconductivity

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electrical_resistivity_and_conductivity

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superconducting_wire

I can understand this fans statement about "tracking blue metal",though i'm in the camp that believes men may not have any thing to do with it.When i first read Bran's vision about the wall "shinning like a blue crystal" the first thing i thought of was some cold extremeaphile inhabiting the wall.

The next immediate thought was Cobalt/blue this is a very prized metal,moreso in magic. It is very magnetic,resonates hypnotic waves and it is very refractive ,hence the reason it is used in magical spells to conceal and alter perception of the looker . It looks kinda grayish black but can be a blue pigment.In its inorganic form bacteria loves it as food.

In all honesty, he's been writing this for over 20 years now and perhaps a lot longer if we admit earlier work like the Ice Dragon and that one you found the other day. I'd be inclined to interpret the apparent contradictions as his own modifying how he sees them rather than any cunning plan to deceive. If you can get a hold of that first volume of the comic book version (I don't have it otherwise I'd do a bit of heroic transcription) which has the essays by Patterson on how he depicted various characters, the whole process of creating the Others is interesting. I've only ever quoted the juicy bits but its evident that GRRM had great trouble in conveying exactly what he wanted and while he liked the Piccacio version and got Patterson to completely change the original concept sketches, its not hard to come away with the feeling that GRRM still wasn't completely satisfied. So notwithstanding at least three "sanctioned" realisations (and the HBO weirwood faces), I think at this stage we still need to rely on the text both in the book and the Sidhe email.

In fairness I'd also mention a practical point. For my sins I also happen to be a military historian and as such am required by publishers from time to time to brief illustrators. Sometimes this can be pretty straightforward, especially if its an artist I know and have worked with before, but at the end of the day I have to be specific as to what's required and I also have to be comprehensive. Its not enough to say that a particular figure should have a red coat, I have to supply references to show the style, the buttons, the lining and so on. The same goes for everything else he's wearing or carrying, and how his hair is cut or not and whether he has a beard or a moustache and a whole myriad of other details. Now I can do that because I'm working off period artefacts, documents and illustrations. It can be a pain assembling it and sometimes a conscious decision has to be made on how to fudge the unknown. Its a big job getting it right.

GRRM on the other hand has none of that. He has in his mind that 'The Others are not dead. They are strange, beautiful… think, oh… the Sidhe made of ice, something like that… a different sort of life… inhuman, elegant, dangerous. but that's not a specification, but a concept and the artist has to do his best using his own imagination. GRRM may well say, yeah, something like that or praise bits of it, but at the end of the day its the artist's work, not his.

I have to agree with this,all the varied renditions of the WW's makes me say i give up. So i just take what the book shows me and form a pic from that....Last thought kinda look like the predator in camo

[Urrax]

Too bad the septons didn't have room for the Venus/Aphrodite figure, post-maid and ready willing and able to do what makes mothers.

[Forlorn Horpe]

Snowfyre, that's an amazing catch.

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

Minor point. You Can't be a maiden if you're having a child.

That's a fair observation, but it might be a distraction. Even as part of a triple goddess, the Morrigan is not necessarily an actual maiden, but may at times appear as one. And that rings true of Gilly... who is often said to look younger than her years, and slim for a new mother.

Otherwise, we may also be confusing the female trio of the Andal Seven with the "triple" aspect of the Morrigan. Most references I've seen to the Morrigan as a triple goddess count her as one of three sisters, without parsing the life-stages into Maiden, Mother and Crone. Black Crow may have more specific references, but I think the life-stage identities may not be the rule...?

[Capon Breath]

Maybe, but it feels like forcing the evidence to fit to say its the Morrigan because there's a maid mother & crone together in a scene and then dismiss the fact that there isn't.

[wolfmaid7]

Yeahhhhh i think superimposing the 3 aspects of the Dark Mother unto Gilly is too much skillful maneuvering. She is a sweet little thing that has served her purpose,and served it well she did.

[Black Crow]

That's a fair observation, but it might be a distraction. Even as part of a triple goddess, the Morrigan is not necessarily an actual maiden, but may at times appear as one. And that rings true of Gilly... who is often said to look younger than her years, and slim for a new mother.

Otherwise, we may also be confusing the female trio of the Andal Seven with the "triple" aspect of the Morrigan. Most references I've seen to the Morrigan as a triple goddess count her as one of three sisters, without parsing the life-stages into Maiden, Mother and Crone. Black Crow may have more specific references, but I think the life-stage identities may not be the rule...?

It varies. In some versions the triple human aspects of the Morrigan are indeed three sisters, but its far from consistent. The Morrigan certainly appears in some stories, most notably the Cu Chulainn cycle in various forms including a far from chaste young maiden and as an old hag - as well as a crow, and as I mentioned its always worth remembering that in Westerosi mythology it was the crone who let the first raven into the world.

Otherwise, in general terms, the triple goddess is a very common motif: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triple_deities#Triple_goddesses