Dany, Red Priests, and Slavery

[rivergirl]

Really interesting topic, kudos!

I'd love to see what Melisandre would think of Dany, especially having been sold as a slave herself. I think Mel's backstory, brief as it was, is important if only because it shows the weird connection between slavery and Rh'llor. I call it "weird" because while Melisandre doesn't look fondly on the experience of being sold (duh) it did lead her to the Red God, which she embraced wholeheartedly.

So if Melisandre met Dany, would she embrace her because of her war on slavery, or hate her for it? I mean, for a former slave who really likes fire and stuff, Daenerys initially seems like a dream come true. But Mel is pretty intent on backing Stannis even when the flames "shows her only Snow," and ultimately seems to be glad she was sold to the Red Priests and got to become what she is now. Plus she's all for the ends justifying the means, so by that train of thought it looks like she wouldn't mind slavery if it means more support for her God.

On a more related note, i agree with the whole "Dany opposes slavery when it suits her" thing. I don't mean that as an attack on her necessarily, but more as a sign that she's becoming more practical. She fought so hard against slavery, rape etc. in her early days with Drogo's Khalasar and all it got her was some really pissy bloodriders. She fought it again in Meereen and it made the whole city hate her. The fact that people sold themselves back into slavery is, to me, a reflection of what Mirri Maz Duur said about life not being all it's cracked up to be when everything else is gone. Hopefully Dany's going to realise that she can't just dismantle a thousands-of-years-old regime by burning everything she doesn't like… and that she really needs to start picking her battles.

[SeanF]

My impression from ADWD was that the Rhlloristas liked Daenerys precisely because she was opposed to slavery. I suspect that they view servitude to Rhllor as being different to being owned by another person.

I expect that rather like early Christianity, social distinctions (such as the distinction between slave and free) aren't considered of great importance among servants of the Red God.

[Bearson]

As SeanF already pointed out, Thoros wasn't a slave. He was given to the priesthood in much the same way poor parents in the middle ages would hand over their "spare children" to be raised as monks. I don't think Dany would have any problem convincing the priesthood of abandoning the raising of slaves to the priesthood. They don't stand to lose economically from it it would seem, as they mostly purchase, rather than sell, slaves.

[noSer]

I think this particular moral crisis has yet to surface in the books bc they aren't her most fervent supportets at all. We know the head priest has used her name to lather up a crowd and that Moroqquo seeks her (this could easily be for any number of purposes and the reason he gives Tyrion is a cover), but what have they actually done to aid her cause? Obviously they aren't a military force but politically they could have done something. Is their failure to help a result of orders from Illyrio possibly? Most of all does Dany or her council ever speak of their support? Or even mention them at all? In the future, sure, they could ally and this issue would become interesting quick, but their only association i see now is being manufactured most likely without Dany having any knowledge. She needs a Varys. Reznak is the worst character in the books.

[Lummel]

Well when Tyrion is passing through Volantis Vogarro's whore tells him and Jorah with reference to the coming war against Daenerys:

"I think it will be war, but not the war they want...Triarch Malaquo tried to hire the Golden Company...He meant to clean out the red temple and put Benerro to the sword. He dare not use the tiger cloaks. Half of them worship the Lord of Light as well...Should you reach your queen, give her a message from the slaves of Old Volontis." She touched the faded scars upon her wrinkled cheek, where her tears had been cut away. "Tell her we are waiting. Tell her to come soon."

ADWD pp367-371 (hardback edition)

earlier travelling past the red temple Jorah tells Tyrion that Benerro preaches:

That Daenerys stands in peril. The dark eye has fallen upon her, and the minions of night are plotting her destruction, praying to their false gods in temples of deceit...conspiring at betrayal with godless outlanders...

ADWD p355 (hardback edition)

Taken together slaves, former slaves and Rhlloristas support Daenerys. They consider her to be opposed to slavery. They see her as somebody who will strike off their chains. This belief given the news from Slaver's Bay is making slaves and former slaves resitive and worrying the slave owning elites. They can't rely on the Tiger Cloaks - because those soldiers are all slaves and the worship of Rhllor is widespread among them.

There is a seeming contradiction in that the red temple and the Rhlloristas generally are using slavery, but it seems that in Volontis at least the temple is controlled by a priest who does not approve of slavery.

Given that Volontis is still a wealthy and powerful city with large fleets and a large army - part of which has been sent to slaver's bay it probably doesn't matter if theologically some rhlloristas support the peculiar institution of slavery. It is going to make a big enough difference stratigically / plotwise that Rhllorism in Volontis is opposed to it.

[Ted Chang]

I suspect the whole slavery thing is a red herring. It is to Dany what marrying a dashing and handsome prince is to Sansa. They are both coming out of the other side as they grow up. Dany will move on with the help of Tyrion after she is undoubtedly betrayed by Daario, and the lesson she will have learned is that adults who are idealists are fools, especially in an unforgiving place like Westeros, or Essos for that matter. I don't think we would even have seen this much of the slavery storyline had GRRM not gone into neutral during the last couple of books.

[Darkbringer]

I suspect the whole slavery thing is a red herring. It is to Dany what marrying a dashing and handsome prince is to Sansa. They are both coming out of the other side as they grow up. Dany will move on with the help of Tyrion after she is undoubtedly betrayed by Daario, and the lesson she will have learned is that adults who are idealists are fools, especially in an unforgiving place like Westeros, or Essos for that matter. I don't think we would even have seen this much of the slavery storyline had GRRM not gone into neutral during the last couple of books.

Agreed. But don't you think this thwarting of idealism might make a cynic out of her? Also, nothing has been seen to suggest that she shows much regret for her more cruel acts?

[SeanF]

Well when Tyrion is passing through Volantis Vogarro's whore tells him and Jorah with reference to the coming war against Daenerys:

ADWD pp367-371 (hardback edition)

earlier travelling past the red temple Jorah tells Tyrion that Benerro preaches:

ADWD p355 (hardback edition)

Taken together slaves, former slaves and Rhlloristas support Daenerys. They consider her to be opposed to slavery. They see her as somebody who will strike off their chains. This belief given the news from Slaver's Bay is making slaves and former slaves resitive and worrying the slave owning elites. They can't rely on the Tiger Cloaks - because those soldiers are all slaves and the worship of Rhllor is widespread among them.

There is a seeming contradiction in that the red temple and the Rhlloristas generally are using slavery, but it seems that in Volontis at least the temple is controlled by a priest who does not approve of slavery.

Given that Volontis is still a wealthy and powerful city with large fleets and a large army - part of which has been sent to slaver's bay it probably doesn't matter if theologically some rhlloristas support the peculiar institution of slavery. It is going to make a big enough difference stratigically / plotwise that Rhllorism in Volontis is

opposed to it.

It's intriguing that slaves and ex-slaves and freeborn should be willing to make common cause, politically. That's not something that often happens.

[Lummel]

It's intriguing that slaves and ex-slaves and freeborn should be willing to make common cause, politically. That's not something that often happens.

In Volontis I guess they are all losers in the current political system. It makes sense to support Daenerys if you see slavery as the basis of the power of the elite and are aware of her anti-slavery views.

[SeanF]

In Volontis I guess they are all losers in the current political system. It makes sense to support Daenerys if you see slavery as the basis of the power of the elite and are aware of her anti-slavery views.

Certainly in Rome, it was axiomatic that the cruelest masters were ex-slaves. Unlike Volantis, though, ex-slaves got the vote, which tied them in to the system.

[The Sleeper]

The red priests are chattels to an institution, not individuals, which they actually run. Benerro appears to be a slave himself. If they are boght at a yound age and indoctrinated, they wouldn't view their service as bondage, but would still be opposed to the institution of slavery.

[noSer]

Well when Tyrion is passing through Volantis Vogarro's whore tells him and Jorah with reference to the coming war against Daenerys:

ADWD pp367-371 (hardback edition)

earlier travelling past the red temple Jorah tells Tyrion that Benerro preaches:

ADWD p355 (hardback edition)

Taken together slaves, former slaves and Rhlloristas support Daenerys. They consider her to be opposed to slavery. They see her as somebody who will strike off their chains. This belief given the news from Slaver's Bay is making slaves and former slaves resitive and worrying the slave owning elites. They can't rely on the Tiger Cloaks - because those soldiers are all slaves and the worship of Rhllor is widespread among them.

There is a seeming contradiction in that the red temple and the Rhlloristas generally are using slavery, but it seems that in Volontis at least the temple is controlled by a priest who does not approve of slavery.

Given that Volontis is still a wealthy and powerful city with large fleets and a large army - part of which has been sent to slaver's bay it probably doesn't matter if theologically some rhlloristas support the peculiar institution of slavery. It is going to make a big enough difference stratigically / plotwise that Rhllorism in Volontis is opposed to it.

I'm not arguing that their support doesn't male sense bc it does I'm just saying that other than a priest giving a sermon what actual support have they given? Even if they have done more has word of it reached Dany? In retrospect its odd that the Red Temple hasn't been a big part of at least one conversation with Dany. Throw in the priest at get engagement party and all kinds of crazy arguments spring up about them, Illyrio, Dany, and the true intent of the V&I plot.

[Lummel]

I don't see the Rhlloristas as having had a part to play in Daenerys' past (but who knows, the epilogue to ADWD totally transformed we had to read Varys and all his interactions in the previous books, so a big future reveal could have us reevaluating this too) but I imagine this pro-Daenerys feeling is going to have an impact on the situations that she or her supporters are in TWOW.

[DaarioKnowsBest]

If Dany and Stannis are pitted against each other it could cause a split within the religion.

If Dany is really a messianic figure to them there's that, but Stannis has likely done more to spread the religion than anyone has in quite some time.

If those two are against each other who do you side with as a religious rhllor person

[SeanF]

If Dany and Stannis are pitted against each other it could cause a split within the religion.

If Dany is really a messianic figure to them there's that, but Stannis has likely done more to spread the religion than anyone has in quite some time.

If those two are against each other who do you side with as a religious rhllor person

Melisandre might well be a heretic within her own religion.

[Queen‍‍‍‍‍‍ Alysanne‍‍™]

GRRM said Mel is from a different faction.

[SeanF]

If Dany and Stannis are pitted against each other it could cause a split within the religion.

If Dany is really a messianic figure to them there's that, but Stannis has likely done more to spread the religion than anyone has in quite some time.

If those two are against each other who do you side with as a religious rhllor person

Melisandre might well be a heretic within her own religion.

[DaarioKnowsBest]

GRRM said Mel is from a different faction.

Split has already happened then.

The slavery thing should be a non issue for Dany,

Stannis seems to have no trouble stopping his red god people from practicing slavery

[Sevumar]

The red priests are chattels to an institution, not individuals, which they actually run. Benerro appears to be a slave himself. If they are boght at a yound age and indoctrinated, they wouldn't view their service as bondage, but would still be opposed to the institution of slavery.

Benerro is a slave, but a powerful one with some freedom to maneuver. In a way, it appears that being a slave to the temple of R'hllor has some advantages over other owners. It was virtually guaranteed that the Fiery Hand members from the Selaesori Qhoran would find their way back to the Red Temple unharmed and unclaimed by anyone else. People clearly know better than to interfere with the affairs of the Red Priests.

What's really interesting to me is that Benerro openly uses the language of slavery to describe his relationship to R'hllor. Slavery doesn't seem inherently abhorrent to R'hllor and Benerro only starts laying the groundwork for a slave uprising once he has decided that Volantis is an enemy of his declared Azor Ahai candidate. It is religious opinion driving his activism, not support for Dany's anti-slavery agenda.

[grand old duke of stark]

This complex situation reminds me of the antebellum south in the States. Fiery abolitionists like John Brown drove their agenda, and fiery pro-slavery people in the South drove theirs. Both sides would use individuals and symbols (Ft.Sumter, John Brown;s martyrdom) the fullest extent possible. Idealism aside, most people were just bystanders. The main actors on both sides believed in their causes, but ultimately it came down to pursuit of power.

I think it's the same in Essos. Dany is acting out of principle/idealism (even if she's somewhat inconsistent) because her ultimate goal is Westeros. Almost everyone else, especially the Red Priesthood, is in a power grab. Among the characters we've already met, this is especially true of Benerro and Moqorro. IMO, together they are out to convert or use Dany to acquire more followers and more possessions and more power. Moqorro may be splitting off--he's already got Victarion and his fleet and Horn and hopes to 'get' Dany. Why be a 'bishop' when he could become pope of a 'new' church? Such inter-religious squabbling has the potential to make the Meereenese Knot look more like a polka dot bow tie. I fervently hope that Dany and her followers evade this distraction and finish up their business in Essos and land in Westeros by the end of TWoW.

By the way, I don't think GRRM is implying this, but a Benerro - Moqorro split might equate to the split between Mohammed's early followers that led the the mutually loathing Shiite and Sunni factions.