Dany, Red Priests, and Slavery

[SeanF]

I think Bennero and Moqorro are at one.

For Dany, there are enormous potential benefits in converting to R'hllor, and proclaiming herself AA reborn, but a downside too.

[The Sleeper]

Benerro is a slave, but a powerful one with some freedom to maneuver. In a way, it appears that being a slave to the temple of R'hllor has some advantages over other owners. It was virtually guaranteed that the Fiery Hand members from the Selaesori Qhoran would find their way back to the Red Temple unharmed and unclaimed by anyone else. People clearly know better than to interfere with the affairs of the Red Priests.

What's really interesting to me is that Benerro openly uses the language of slavery to describe his relationship to R'hllor. Slavery doesn't seem inherently abhorrent to R'hllor and Benerro only starts laying the groundwork for a slave uprising once he has decided that Volantis is an enemy of his declared Azor Ahai candidate. It is religious opinion driving his activism, not support for Dany's anti-slavery agenda.

From what I know for most religions devotion to the deity is described in terms of servitude. We know that R'hlor, in Volantis at least, appeals mostly to slaves and that he has proclaimed Dany AA. From Vogaro's whore we know that slaves are waiting in Volantis for a rebellion and are ready to join her. There might be a religious veneer, but he condemnes the authorities for heeding the forces of darkness going against Dany. But the Volantese are sending a fleet against Dany because she disrupted the slave trade. It is a small step for his followers to connect darkness with slavery and if Benerro is a demagogue worth his salt he is aware and is making use of that, even if that wasn't his original intention.

[ShadowCat Rivers]

The Red priests are not all slaves. A red temple exists in Braavos too, where slavery is prohibited. Thoros of Myr is not a slave either.

I suppose that R'hillorism adopts the practices of the region they are located and I don't think they are anti-slavery per se. They are rising in popularity among slaves in Volantis, and I think it makes a lot of sense. They are a messianic religion, they promise "salvation" and who needs to believe in salvation more than slaves? Furthermore, the savior figure that they have chosen -based on the words of the prophesy, it must be noted, not in Dany's abolisionism campain- just happens to free slaves. It clicks together nicely.

I think that the rise of R'hillorism in the area of Volantis has some allusions in the rise of Christianity in Rome, it is believed that the new religion was popular among slaves too, but it also appealed to other social groups. Christianity was never clear about its position regarding slavery, it never condemned it though. On the contrary, it preached for the value of obedience. I could see R'hillorism taking a similar position. However, religions somethimes are a catalyst to releasing forces bigger than what they are able to control. Maybe there is a slave uprising boiling underneath the surface in Volantis, but I am not very sure that it's fully organised and controlled by the Red Temple. There are in-series analogies to the rise of the sparrows in Westeros, which IMO has real world analogies to the historical context of the protestant reformation. The ideological debate sparked deeper and more radical ideas than Luther ever intended, inspiring the German peasant's war. A schism is very likely to happen in the Red priesthood as well as in the Faith of the Seven in Westeros.

As far as Daenerys is concerned, I think it won't really matter what she does or does not. She will be important anyway as their selected messianic figure. Whatever her actions, they will be interpreted by the various (potential) fractions in the way they suit their agenda. Even more so if she leaves for Westeros. The farther away she is, the better this works.

On a side note, regarding R'hillorism, Stannis is very much like St. Constantine "the Great".

[Ted Chang]

Agreed. But don't you think this thwarting of idealism might make a cynic out of her? Also, nothing has been seen to suggest that she shows much regret for her more cruel acts?

Undoubtedly. At 18 I was an idealist. At 50 I'm a realist, which is essentially the same as being a cynic. In a civilised land one has the luxury of surviving an extended level of naivety. See Ned Stark for what can happen in a less civilised place. ;) I guess what one needs to retain is a sense of right and wrong whilst still being capable of doing the unpleasant things that life sometimes requires.

[The Idiots Lantern]

I think it's the same in Essos. Dany is acting out of principle/idealism (even if she's somewhat inconsistent) because her ultimate goal is Westeros.

I'm just going to point out here that Dany's idealism is pretty consistent. She hates the institution of slavery and the cruelty of the people who practice it. She hasn't wavered in that. The "inconsistency" comes from her attempts to turn her ideals into action. She hates slavery, but when faced with the harpy's killings, she agreed to allow people to sell themselves if they wished to leave the city. She allowed Yunkai's market to reopen to avert a civil war. She reopened the fighting pits to quell civil unrest. Each time she attached limits to her concessions, and even then she ended up being unable to live with them. I think we'll see a Dany who's much less interested in compromising with evil people, even for peace, when she comes back.

As for her interactions with the Red Temple, I am all set for GRRM to surprise us all with how that ends up actually going. Maybe a shadow assassin will be how the Dance of Dragons 2.0 was won...

[Parwan]

Thanks to Saga Whitefawn for starting this topic. My main contention about Dany is that she and her story are interesting. The business about "slavery, the red priests, Volantis, etc." is one reason why I believe this. Some points which have been touched on, but not fully developed:

Yes,the worship of R'hllor is not a monolithic thing. It has numerous sects. Melisandre would probably be viewed as a heretic by many red priests, but I'm pretty sure she would reply that they were the actual heretics. How will Dany react to the AAR prophecy? Who knows? She is not a very religious person; as far as I can remember, her one thought about the worship of the red god was not a favorable one.

The divisions within the religion of R'hllor are not the only complicating factors. The widow of the waterfront is an important and powerful individual in Volantis. She is a former slave. She "believes" in Daenerys in some important sense, but it's not certain exactly what that verb means in her case. In fact, she appears to be a rather secular person to me. I'd say she's an ally of Benerro, but I don't know that she should be considered one of his followers. Then there's the whole "breaker of chains" idea. This is bigger than any one person or any one prophecy. The words Qavo Nogaris spoke to Haldon and Tyrion in Selhorys show us that:

"Behind the Black Wall, lords of ancient blood sleep poorly, listening as their kitchen slaves sharpen their long knives. Slaves grow our food, clean our streets, teach our young. They guard our walls, row our galleys, fight our battles."

I don't see any mention of religion there. I do see lots of potential problems for the current order. Daenerys Targaryen is not a revolutionary. Nevertheless, she may have touched off a revolution. Those who start revolutions are often not the same people as those who end them. What that means for ASoIaF is difficult to say. There are lots of possibilities. That's interesting.

[Lilly Snow]

I wonder how Melisandre will react when she learns about Dany. Actually I'm surprised she hasn't heard about her yet considering rumors of the dragon princess have reached even the Wall. If the rest of the R'hllor priests start supporting Dany (which is probably what's going to happen) will Melisandre still continue to back Stannis as Azor Ahai?

[Sevumar]

I'm just going to point out here that Dany's idealism is pretty consistent. She hates the institution of slavery and the cruelty of the people who practice it. She hasn't wavered in that. The "inconsistency" comes from her attempts to turn her ideals into action. She hates slavery, but when faced with the harpy's killings, she agreed to allow people to sell themselves if they wished to leave the city. She allowed Yunkai's market to reopen to avert a civil war.

I don't even think we can say that Dany's idealism is consistent. Her views evolve from being pretty indifferent to slavery during her time among the Dothraki (even willing to benefit from the sale of slaves to finance her invasion of Westeros) to outright opposition by the time she finds herself in need of some Unsullied without the ability to afford them.

It's not bad that she's against slavery, but she has been very naive about the way she has conducted her Slaver's Bay campaign and her rulership of Meereen.

[Parwan]

I wonder how Melisandre will react when she learns about Dany. (1) Actually I'm surprised she hasn't heard about her yet considering rumors of the dragon princess have reached even the Wall. (2) If the rest of the R'hllor priests start supporting Dany (which is probably what's going to happen) will Melisandre still continue to back Stannis as Azor Ahai?

(1) That's a good point. It relates to a general assertion that I have made a few times: There is a significant lack of intelligence, in both senses of the word, on both sides of the Narrow Sea. Dany is criticized, with some justice, because she hasn't made contacts in Westeros. I maintain that this is just one of many examples of how the dragon queen fits into the general scheme of things. The ignorance of the powers-that-be in the seven kingdom's concerning the activities of Daenery's Targaryen is remarkable.

(2) I doubt that all of the other R'hllor priests will support Dany. I'd say that the faith is too diverse; there are too many different sects.

[Lilly Snow]

(1) That's a good point. It relates to a general assertion that I have made a few times: There is a significant lack of intelligence, in both senses of the word, on both sides of the Narrow Sea. Dany is criticized, with some justice, because she hasn't made contacts in Westeros. I maintain that this is just one of many examples of how the dragon queen fits into the general scheme of things. The ignorance of the powers-that-be in the seven kingdom's concerning the activities of Daenery's Targaryen is remarkable.

Indeed! Throughout the books, not a single "player" considers her as a serious threat even though she has, you know, dragons :P I'm pretty sure it will be their undoing.

[Petite Psycophant]

I don't even think we can say that Dany's idealism is consistent. Her views evolve from being pretty indifferent to slavery during her time among the Dothraki (even willing to benefit from the sale of slaves to finance her invasion of Westeros) to outright opposition by the time she finds herself in need of some Unsullied without the ability to afford them.

It's not bad that she's against slavery, but she has been very naive about the way she has conducted her Slaver's Bay campaign and her rulership of Meereen.

What makes you think she was indifferent to it? She accepted and resigned herself to it but I see nowhere in the text that she's indifferent. In fact as soon as she became more assertive she tried to at least save the women from being raped. I'm not sure why people give Dany so much flack for at least trying while many other characters don't even bother. Dany is deeply conflicted because she tried to do good but it ends up blowing up in her face. She keeps on thinking about the rape she stopped only for the girl to meet a fate far worse.

That's what troubling Dany, that when she tries to help people she ends up hurting them more. When she allowed people to sell themselves it was only after she heard how the people she freed were suffering and how some of them complained they were better off being slaves. Nobody mentions how she made sure people couldn't be sold unwillingly, for example a husband wasn't allowed to sell his wife. She fought to keep as hard as she could to free the slaves. Against everybody advising her otherwise. I seriously don't know how people can sit here with a straight face giving Dany any kind of flack.

As for the red priests, slavery isn't an integral part of their church. The fact that some of them were bought and are ex-slaves only assures me that they are indeed anti-slavery. I don't see this as a conflict at all. I'm sure that if it ever reaches Dany's ear that they used to buy slaves, she'll summon their leader, forbid it to ever happen again and that will be the end of that. I think that when the time arrives that she has any power at all in Volantis, she would have already heard about the red priests's support.

[Sevumar]

What makes you think she was indifferent to it? She accepted and resigned herself to it but I see nowhere in the text that she's indifferent. In fact as soon as she became more assertive she tried to at least save the women from being raped. I'm not sure why people give Dany so much flack for at least trying while many other characters don't even bother. Dany is deeply conflicted because she tried to do good but it ends up blowing up in her face. She keeps on thinking about the rape she stopped only for the girl to meet a fate far worse.

She genuinely felt for the victims that she could put a face to, such as those she tried to save from rape. Even at that time, she was attempting to look out for a small number of individuals. She did not really attempt to oppose the sale of slaves in Meereen to finance her conquest of the Seven Kingdoms.

It was only Drogo's death and her relative bad luck and poverty that put her on the road to her crusade against slavery. Without those very specific circumstances, Dany probably wouldn't have developed the ideas she now holds about slavery.

[Petite Psycophant]

She genuinely felt for the victims that she could put a face to, such as those she tried to save from rape. Even at that time, she was attempting to look out for a small number of individuals. She did not really attempt to oppose the sale of slaves in Meereen to finance her conquest of the Seven Kingdoms.

It was only Drogo's death and her relative bad luck and poverty that put her on the road to her crusade against slavery. Without those very specific circumstances, Dany probably wouldn't have developed the ideas she now holds about slavery.

She could only do so much and even that could have gotten her into trouble. Not to mention that she didn't have much self-confidence back then. Dany was still growing into the woman who would conquer 3 cities. As soon as she had the power (after her dragons hatched) she changed all the rules. As I said I think it's hypocritical of people for giving Dany flack for trying while countless others stood by and watched. While she was advised time and time again to leave the slaves to their fate.

I'm sure her trials with Viserys influenced her too. She was sold to khal Drogo after all. She was only 13! Often suffered abuse at the hands of Viserys while living in his shadow. She was this meek little thing. I think people forget.

[Miss]

She was sold to khal Drogo after all.

She wasn't sold, she was married. There's a difference.

Though you are right that it is pretty lame to criticise Dany for not standing up to the Dothraki horde when she was just 14 and had confidence issues. Of course her development was not perfect. Is anybody's? No. It is not until Astapor when she really becomes accountable does critique become fair.

[Parwan]

Sevumar, on 17 Nov 2013 - 8:15 PM, said:I don't even think we can say that Dany's idealism is consistent. Her views evolve from being pretty indifferent to slavery during her time among the Dothraki (even willing to benefit from the sale of slaves to finance her invasion of Westeros) to outright opposition by the time she finds herself in need of some Unsullied without the ability to afford them.

She could only do so much and even that could have gotten her into trouble. Not to mention that she didn't have much self-confidence back then. Dany was still growing into the woman who would conquer 3 cities. As soon as she had the power (after her dragons hatched) she changed all the rules. As I said I think it's hypocritical of people for giving Dany flack for trying while countless others stood by and watched. While she was advised time and time again to leave the slaves to their fate.

I'm sure her trials with Viserys influenced her too. She was sold to khal Drogo after all. She was only 13! Often suffered abuse at the hands of Viserys while living in his shadow. She was this meek little thing. I think people forget.

She wasn't sold, she was married. There's a difference.

Though you are right that it is pretty lame to criticise Dany for not standing up to the Dothraki horde when she was just 14 and had confidence issues. Of course her development was not perfect. Is anybody's? No. It is not until Astapor when she really becomes accountable does critique become fair.

Dany is very emotional. We need to keep this in mind when discussing issues like the ones raised in this thread. I don't think that it is adequate to analyze her anti-slavery moves in terms of what she thinks or does not think about the institution. In particular, I believe that people who say she only turned against slavery when it was convenient to do so miss some important points. Her actions in the village of the Lhazareen seem to me to have been a matter of deep empathy. Daenerys Targaryen knows what it is like to be mounted and ridden hard. She has the experience. I believe that the screams of the young girl were actually painful to the khaleesi. Her first words on the matter were, "Make them stop." The situation in Astapor is similar. Dany is revolted by the business about strangling puppies and killing suckling babes. She can hardly bear to think about these things.

The OP asks us to think about how Daenerys will deal with "an interesting conflict." I don't think her decision(s) will be based purely on philosophy or on possible political advantage. Probably a good bit will depend on what she feels about Moqorro, how their initial meeting goes.

[Miss]

Dany is very emotional. We need to keep this in mind when discussing issues like the ones raised in this thread. I don't think that it is adequate to analyze her anti-slavery moves in terms of what she thinks or does not think about the institution.

Irrational is a better term. It is not a good quality of a leader. If law is reason free from passion, then Dany is passion free from reason, the exact opposite. She administers revenge, not justice, as such.

You are dead right we need to take her emotional side into account, but it is not for the better.

Daenerys Targaryen knows what it is like to be mounted and ridden hard.

What does this even mean? Is it a metaphor, or literal? LOL

[Parwan]

Parwan said:

Dany is very emotional. We need to keep this in mind when discussing issues like the ones raised in this thread. I don't think that it is adequate to analyze her anti-slavery moves in terms of what she thinks or does not think about the institution.

1. Irrational is a better term. It is not a good quality of a leader. If law is reason free from passion, then Dany is passion free from reason, the exact opposite. She administers revenge, not justice, as such.

You are dead right we need to take her emotional side into account, but it is not for the better.

Parwan said:

Daenerys Targaryen knows what it is like to be mounted and ridden hard.

2. What does this even mean? Is it a metaphor, or literal? LOL

1. I disagree. "Emotional" is a better term. Dany's emotions sometimes lead her in the right direction. One example is her rejection of slavery. Another example is her relationship with MIssandei. The queen is capable or reason. For instance, her treatment of the fighting pits issue was reasonable. She has a real problem distinguishing between revenge and justice. This is not unique. I'd say that the entire kingdom of Dorne has this same problem. In all, I continue to maintain my basic position. The actual problems in Westeros are systemic. No "great ruler" is going to solve them. Daenerys Targaryen has serious deficiencies as a monarch. So does every other candidate for the throne.

2. There is no reason why it can't be both metaphorical and literal. The point is that Daenerys acted (or reacted) on emotion. In this case, the action (or reaction) was a good thing.