House Whent contradictions

[Nittanian]

I'm trying to figure out the family history of House Whent, which seems to have contradictory information available to us.

In AGOT, Catelyn thinks of Shella Whent:

Lady Whent, last of her line, who dwelt with her ghosts in the cavernous vaults of Harrenhal ...

In ACOK, Gendry tells Arya:

Why should I wager my feet for the chance to sweat in Winterfell in place of Harrenhal? You know old Ben Blackthumb? He came here as a boy. Smithed for Lady Whent and her father and his father before him, and even for Lord Lothston who held Harrenhal before the Whents.

In ASOS, Meera tells Bran:

The daughter of the great castle reigned as queen of love and beauty when the tourney opened. Five champions had sworn to defend her crown; her four brothers of Harrenhal, and her famous uncle, a white knight of the Kingsguard.

Also in ASOS, an incognito Sandor tells Donnel Haigh that he serves "Old Lady Whent".

In ADWD, Barristan thinks:

Old Lord Whent had announced the tourney shortly after a visit from his brother, Ser Oswell Whent of the Kingsguard.

However, in a So Spake Martin, GRRM says:

I was wondering if you would tell me where Lady Shella Whent is right now. We know that she isn't at Harrenhal, and that she had left Harrenhal before Tywin got there. But where is she? Also, is she the aunt of the Maid /Queen of the Harrenhal tournament? or the Queen of tournament herself? If the former, is she Lady Minisa Whent's and Ser Oswell Whent's sister?

Lady Shella Whent was the mother of the "fair maid" at the Harrenhal tournament. Ser Oswell Whent would have been her husband's brother, and therefore uncle to the "fair maid."

The SSM by GRRM indicates that Shella married into House Whent. However, Catelyn and Gendry indicate that Shella was born a Whent ("last of her line", "her father and his father before him"). An older version of the Whent family tree includes Shella as Old Lord Whent's wife, while the current version is closer to Gendry's version. Which do you think should be the preferred format?

[ladydewinter]

I like the older version and would this make edmure or catelyns children the heirs as the closest remaining relative's if it was not passed around by the lanisters?

[Nittanian]

I like the older version and would this make edmure or catelyns children the heirs as the closest remaining relative's if it was not passed around by the lanisters?

I expect the Tullys would have a claim, but we don't know how strong since Minisa's connection with the other Whents is unknown and the Iron Throne granted the castle to Janos Slynt and Petyr Baelish. Maybe it would be better to remove the family tree from the House Whent article until we receive clarification from GRRM or Ran.

[The hairy bear]

As the one who edited the current version of the family tree:

GRRM said that the only canon is his books. The material from mails or interviews can vary if he changes his mind. In this case, the SSM clearly contradicts the text. In those cases, canon should always take priority above semi-canon, and we should assume that the text is right and disregard the SSM.

The current family tree is consistent with:

1. That Shella Whent is a Whent by birth, that succeeded his father and his grandfather.
2. That the queen of love and beauty had four brothers fighting for him at the tourney (and his uncle, Oswell)
3. That Oswell was the brother of the Lord Whent that organizsed the Tourney at Harrenhal
4. Barristan calls the Lord Whent that held the tourney at Harrenhal "old"
5. That Jorah unhorsed some "Lord Whent" at the tourney after the Pyke tourney, ten years after the Tourney.

I'm not aware of any other arrangement that would work. Of course, it is radically different than George's words at the SSM (the only agreeement being that Shella is not the fair maid). It is weird, because the SSM has dated after ASOS (and most of the text that contradicts it) was published.

IMHO we should leave as it is, but perhaps adding a note explaining that an SSM contradicts it and it may be that due to an unreliable narrator, the tree is incorrect.

[protar]

Is it possible that Shella was a cousin who married back into the main line? She may or may not have been born with the name Whent, but even if she didn't she would be a logical inheritor when all the other Whents died out.

[The hairy bear]

Is it possible that Shella was a cousin who married back into the main line? She may or may not have been born with the name Whent, but even if she didn't she would be a logical inheritor when all the other Whents died out.

Not if we want to believe Gendry's statement about Ben Blacktumb: "He came here as a boy. Smithed for Lady Whent and her father and his father before him, and even for Lord Lothston who held Harrenhal before the Whents."

ETA: Even if Gendry was wrong about the exact order of succesion, the fact that Ben Blacktumb started working at Harrenhal when the Lothstons ruled demonstrates that they haven't ruled for more than 3 generations. Therefore, there's not enough time for collateral lines to appear.

[protar]

They've only ruled for three generations but could easily have existed for long before that. And in any case you only need two generations to make room for cousins. Even assuming that House Whent didn't exist until it was put in charge of Harrenhal Shella could be a cousin or second cousin.

Of course that doesn't gel with Gendry's comments about her father and grandfather ruling Harrenhal. Of course that could be handwaved away by saying that Gendry's information isn't accurate. Or alternately (but a little convoluted) Shella could be from the main line and married a cousin - that cousin becoming the Lord Whent who hosted the Harrenhal Tourney.

[Nittanian]

IMHO we should leave as it is, but perhaps adding a note explaining that an SSM contradicts it and it may be that due to an unreliable narrator, the tree is incorrect.

I concur with siding with the books over the SSM. I've added mention of the discrepancy to the articles on Shella Whent and Lord Whent.

[History of Westeros]

We had a great discussion on this elsewhere (I realize this looks like an Orys Baratheon thread, but most of it is about House Whent).

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/90009-orys-baratheon/page-4

[Francisco Araujo da Costa]

Perhaps Old Lady Whent is the Lady Mary Crawley of Westeros: daughter of the lord, marries the cousin who is the male heir.

[protar]

Perhaps Old Lady Whent is the Lady Mary Crawley of Westeros: daughter of the lord, marries the cousin who is the male heir.

That was my thinking as well, and so far as I can see it's the only explanation which reconciles both accounts. However it's also sufficiently convoluted that it can't really be put into the wiki without confirmation so until such a time it's best to just post both sources of information and note the discrepancy.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Perhaps Lady Shella Whent is a Whent from the main line, but due to the fact that she herself had no brothers, married her cousin (Lord Whent, Oswell's brother) to keep the seat in the family. Shella's husband would then be the brother of Oswell Whent, and she would have four sons and a daughter (the fair maid).

Shella's husband then easily could have still been alive 10 years later, riding the Tourney at Pyke.

Another possibility is that "old Lord Whent" was Shella's father, and that not Lord Whent's daughter was the fair maid, but his granddaughter, since the Fair Maid was Shella's daughter.

If anything, I'd go for the first option. But perhaps I'm a bit late to the discussion :)

[LordDireStark]

I'm going to start off with ben blackthumb might have dementia.

House lothston ended in 212ac,and the whents started.

If blackthumb was a kid working for the lothstons he would now

be about 96.This might be a fantasy series,but really,have you seen many 96 yr olds still smithing. Then Selmy calls him "old

lord whent could 've been said in a figurative way,not literal.

That being said there could be a middle ground,even though

timelines in this series are a nightmare. I think i've come up

with something plausible,so here goes.

1st lord-walys whent (180-239)weds elinor wode 183-238)

kids harrold,willem,cyrenna,roland,raymund

2nd lord harrold (199-265)weds anya wayn (202-234)

daughter shella (235- )

willem (200-260)weds marya roote 202-255)

sons walter (218- ) and oswell (234-283)

cyrenna (208-238) septa, dies of illness

roland (217-263)weds rhea vance (224-266)

daugther minisa (244-274)

raymund (218-268)weds sheila ryger (231-276)

daughters sarya (250-276)and wynafrei (257- )

walter whent weds shella 253 (4 boys and a girl)

geremy(254)loren(256)byron(258)ryam(259)doria(261)

minisa whent weds hoster tully 263 (2girls and son)

catelyn(264)lysa(266-300)edmure(273)

minisa dies 274 along with baby son

sarya whent weds

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

@LordDireStark

House Lothston has not been stated to have ended in 212 AC. They ended during the reign of King Maekar (221 - 233 AC), when Mad Danelle turned to black arts.

We don't know who Shella's grandfather and father were, but her husband was Walter Whent. A Whent by birth, indicates he was a cousin. Walter had a brother named Oswell, of the KG.

Minisa had married Hoster at least a few years before Catelyn (264 AC) was born, as she gave birth to two sons before she gave birth to Catelyn. Both boy died in the cradle, however.

[LordDireStark]

@Rhaenys_Targaryen

it seems i've come down with dementia,apologies to ben blackthumb.

You're right about the lothstons,my bad. But hey,that's why we're here,

to get the info right. At least the scenerio I thought of ,still held up.

Sort of with the exception of minisa and hoster,which would have to be tweeked.