[Spoilers] The Princess and the Queen, complete spoilers discussion

[sertravisredbeard]

I think I found a new sword to be my favorite: "Orphan-Maker"

[Blood of the Flagon]

I think I found a new sword to be my favorite: "Orphan-Maker"

Sounds like Joffrey named it

[Sevumar]

It appears to me that Rhaenys's father, Aemon, was Jaehaerys I's oldest son, who died before Jaehaerys I. Rather than designate Rhaenys, his daughter, as the heir, Jaeherys went to his next-oldest son, Baelon. When Baelon too died before Jaehaerys, the council convened and chose between Rhaenys, Viserys (Baelon's son) and Laena and Laenor, Rhaenys's children with Corlys Velaryon (whose early deaths necessitated naming legitimized bastards as heirs to Driftmark). The council picked Viserys, even though Rhaenys was from the more senior line. Hence, the Queen Who Never Was.

I don't think it's explicitly spelled out in the story, but this layout of the tree is the only one that seems to make sense of what we know about the succession issues in the reigns of Jaehaerys and Viserys.

As far as I can tell, this is the chain of events:

• Prince Aemon, eldest son of Jaehaerys is Crown Prince and dies early, leaving only his daughter Rhaenys as his heir.

Jaehaerys then has a choice: confirm the heir's heir (Rhaenys) as heir to the throne, following what seems to be the general law and customs of the Seven Kingdoms, or bypass her in favor of his younger son, Prince Baelon.

In 92, Jaehaerys chooses Baelon, who also suffers an untimely death sometime later.

In the wake of Baelon's death, there are now 4 people who come forward with claims as the Crown Prince/Princess: Rhaenys who has been passed over once already, her children Laenor and Laena Velayron, chidlren of the ruling lord of Driftmark, and Viserys, son of Baelon.

This is when Jaehaerys the Conciliator chooses to consult with the Grand Council of 101 to determine a course of action.

[Blood of the Flagon]

The princess and the queen are both pretty awful. Dany's destiny? From Nettles to Rhaenyra?

[sertravisredbeard]

I just finished the story but I'm kind of confused. Who's left of the Blacks to still fight? All I can think of is some of the riverlanders outside Tumbleton, but most of them died in the fight outside the town didn't they? I guess the North and the Vale can finally enter the fight more enthusiastically but besides them who is left to fight Aegon II? I'm assuming most of Daemon's allies inside King's Landing were killed during the fighting there.

It seemed like the fight was pretty much over, but apparently Aegon II get killed a little bit later. Now I'm more curious than ever about how he dies and Aegon III is installed without pissing off all the greens still left.

[Sansa_Stark]

The princess and the queen are both pretty awful. Dany's destiny? From Nettles to Rhaenyra?

tis to be expected.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

I don't think it's explicitly spelled out in the story, but this layout of the tree is the only one that seems to make sense of what we know about the succession issues in the reigns of Jaehaerys and Viserys.

As far as I can tell, this is the chain of events:

• Prince Aemon, eldest son of Jaehaerys is Crown Prince and dies early, leaving only his daughter Rhaenys as his heir.

Jaehaerys then has a choice: confirm the heir's heir (Rhaenys) as heir to the throne, following what seems to be the general law and customs of the Seven Kingdoms, or bypass her in favor of his younger son, Prince Baelon.

In 92, Jaehaerys chooses Baelon, who also suffers an untimely death sometime later.

In the wake of Baelon's death, there are now 4 people who come forward with claims as the Crown Prince/Princess: Rhaenys who has been passed over once already, her children Laenor and Laena Velayron, sons of the ruling lord of Driftmark, and Viserys, son of Baelon.

This is when Jaehaerys the Conciliator chooses to consult with the Grand Council of 101 to determine a course of action.

Yes, that's how I read it. It took me a while to work through. One thing though -- Laena Velaryon was definitely a lady.

[Ruby Chevrolet]

Nothing about Nettles seemed confirmed to me. She's an enigma. In fact, I was quite surprised that she managed to build up a bond of trust with a dragon, any dragon, in a prolonged period of time. I never thought such a thing was possible.

If you can find something, spoil us!

I think it is deliberately left ambiguous. The author seems to assume she's a seed because she was able to ride a dragon. But she does not have the Targaryen look and she has no specifically identified Targaryen ancestor. So it's inconclusive.

[Anath]

Sertravisredbeard, I suppose Rhaena and/or Viserys can still be the Blacks' figureheads, especially if they manage to hatch dragons.

Aegon II might still die from his wounds and/or accident that, in his weakened state, proves fatal.

No matter whether the war keeps raging, Aegon II's death would be a crushing blow for the Greens because basically, his only heir is his six-year-old daughter who is "sweet and simple". Cosima and I already proposed that it might be a nicer way of saying "lackwit".

So, what other options would the Greens have? The entire was was fought supposedly because a woman could not inherit. If a woman could not, why a girl could? Especially if she was possessed of a feeble mind.

[Sevumar]

Why Rhaenys was passed over is not entirely clear, but I can see a number of factors in play:

As a female, her accession to the throne might cause issues in a highly misogynistic culture, however, the actions of Viserys a few years later show that a Crown Princess can meet with acceptance on the part of the lords of the realm. It seems likely that Rhaenys's status as a female is not the only factor which led to her being passed over, so what else could have figured in?

At the time of the council in 101, Jaehaerys has one surviving child and three grandchildren. However, all but one of these people, Viserys, are actually members of the Velaryon family. Rhaenys's marriage to Corlys Velaryon and her duties to provide heirs to House Velaryon are powerful arguments as to why she should be removed from the succession. Otherwise, the resulting entanglement could prove nasty and it may empower House Velaryon to an extent that would make other nobles nervous. With the option of Viserys on the table, his succession seemed the safer route to avoid potential problems that could arise from having to assign Rhaenys's children to either the Targaryen line or the Velaryon line.

[sertravisredbeard]

Rhaena is in Pentos, right? Did they send Viserys there too? I thought he got captured when he was on the way.

I kind of understand why Aegon III let all the dragons die now. Watching them kill all his family would be distressing.

[Father of Hosts]

Agreed. I also took note that two smaller dragons can be enough to take a larger one. Rhaegal and Viserion against Drogon, anyone?

Very nice.

Still along the lines of dragon warfare, more references to armies fighting, then melting away when dragons show up.

On top of all of this, the characters in story are remarkably less concerned about being able to kill a dragon than I thought they would be. Granted, it always takes a heavy toll on any number of people trying to do it, but they aren't the invincible, end-all, WMD's that many people assume they are. They only dragon talked about in this manner is Vhagar.

Also, the dragon's effectiveness is enhanced only to the rider's ingenuity and skill. Hints on hints on hints.

ETA: They seem most effective when they show up as a surprise. As opposed to flying with an army for a pitched battle. Basically, you don't want anyone to know where your dragons are in a fight, until the most opportune time.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

It seemed like the fight was pretty much over, but apparently Aegon II get killed a little bit later. Now I'm more curious than ever about how he dies and Aegon III is installed without pissing off all the greens still left.

Given how soon Aegon II died after the war, I'm guessing he eventually just succumbed to his wounds. I'm far more interested in what happened to Maelor, who should have been king after Aegon II. If he died, and only Jaehaera was left, by the victors' own rules (I'm assuming?) Aegon III would come before her anyway, being male. They married to unite the two factions and that was that, except she also died fairly young and Aegon married a Velaryon (Alyn's daughter? a cousin? someone?) and had his five kids.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Very nice.

Still along the lines of dragon warfare, more references to armies fighting, then melting away when dragons show up.

On top of all of this, the characters in story are remarkably less concerned about being able to kill a dragon than I thought they would be. Granted, it always takes a heavy toll on any number of people trying to do it, but they aren't the invincible, end-all, WMD's that many people assume they are. They only dragon talked about in this manner is Vhagar.

Also, the dragon's effectiveness is enhanced only to the rider's ingenuity and skill. Hints on hints on hints.

I noticed this too. Hell, an angry mob with fairly rudimentary weapons is enough to kill, what, four or five of them in the pit? And other than the hatchlings (and Aegon's was a baby but still big enough for him to ride), I'm sure the pit dragons that were killed were bigger than Dany's.

[Anath]

Rhaena is in Pentos, right? Did they send Viserys there too? I thought he got captured when he was on the way.

I kind of understand why Aegon III let all the dragons die now. Watching them kill all his family would be distressing.

No, Rhaena is of Pentos. She was born there. Now, she's at the Vale or at least, she hasn't been mentioned to have left it with Joffrey.

My guess is that she was left there with her eggs hoping to hatch them and defend the Vale if need be. Rhaenyra felt secure enough to call Joffrey and Aegon but it wouldn't be too wise to summon Rhaena, too, just in case something happens. The wider spread they were, the lesser chance of being captured at the same time there was.

I think Baela was left at Dragonstone to protect it with Moondancer.

[Queen‍‍‍‍‍‍ Alysanne‍‍™]

Very nice.

Still along the lines of dragon warfare, more references to armies fighting, then melting away when dragons show up.

On top of all of this, the characters in story are remarkably less concerned about being able to kill a dragon than I thought they would be. Granted, it always takes a heavy toll on any number of people trying to do it, but they aren't the invincible, end-all, WMD's that many people assume they are. They only dragon talked about in this manner is Vhagar.

Also, the dragon's effectiveness is enhanced only to the rider's ingenuity and skill. Hints on hints on hints.

ETA: They seem most effective when they show up as a surprise. As opposed to flying with an army for a pitched battle. Basically, you don't want anyone to know where your dragons are in a fight, until the most opportune time.

I agree, I think back then people were less afraid of dragons.

In our series its like dinosaurs coming back to life so people are afraid of them to a higher degree.

And youre right, the better the rider the more effective the dragon.

[Ruby Chevrolet]

I found Daemon's choice to fight Aemond over water rather interesting. Granted his plan involved some serious badassery on his part, but the general sense I got was that if his plan failed, he neutralizes Vhagar by having him in water.

The dragons we saw hit the water were also incredibly wounded, but I wonder if they are not particularly adept at getting out of water without swimming to shore? It only stuck a cord with me because two of Dany's dragons are right around around a large battle with large body of water.

Riderless dragons. The maester points out it was impossible to say if the dragons with dead riders who showed up were fighting for their rider's side or just partaking in the carnage. Same as above, Dany's two dragons. Seems like some major hint dropping going on.

Yet one of the wild dragons lives on fish. I'd like to know how it catches them. Does it swim?

[Father of Hosts]

Yet one of the wild dragons lives on fish. I'd like to know how it catches them. Does it swim?

I was thinking it swooped and caught them. Like an eagle.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

I was thinking it swooped and caught them. Like an eagle.

That's how I took it. Plenty of birds dive to feed on fish without actually swimming in the water or being good in the water.

[sertravisredbeard]

No, Rhaena is of Pentos. She was born there. Now, she's at the Vale or at least, she hasn't been mentioned to have left it with Joffrey.

My guess is that she was left there with her eggs hoping to hatch them and defend the Vale if need be. Rhaenyra felt secure enough to call Joffrey and Aegon but it wouldn't be too wise to summon Rhaena, too, just in case something happens. The wider spread they were, the lesser chance of being captured at the same time there was.

I think Baela was left at Dragonstone to protect it with Moondancer.

Ah ok. I suppose the Vale's armies could still proclaim Rhaena as heir then.

Very nice.

Still along the lines of dragon warfare, more references to armies fighting, then melting away when dragons show up.

On top of all of this, the characters in story are remarkably less concerned about being able to kill a dragon than I thought they would be. Granted, it always takes a heavy toll on any number of people trying to do it, but they aren't the invincible, end-all, WMD's that many people assume they are. They only dragon talked about in this manner is Vhagar.

Also, the dragon's effectiveness is enhanced only to the rider's ingenuity and skill. Hints on hints on hints.

ETA: They seem most effective when they show up as a surprise. As opposed to flying with an army for a pitched battle. Basically, you don't want anyone to know where your dragons are in a fight, until the most opportune time.

Maybe they're referred to now as effective as WMD's because it's been so long since anyone had to deal with them. All the random ways people killed them are probably forgotten by most regular people and soldiers int he series of present day. During the Dance, all kinds of brave or foolish people tried different ways to kill dragons. Most of them died, and it sounds like the successful ones were mostly lucky. By the time of Dany's dragon's, spears and crossbow bolts to the eye are pretty much the only thing anybody has suggested to kill them.

The main one I'm referring to is Vermax, the one that died because some random sailor tied a chain to the ship then threw a hook into the dragon's path to use the dragon's own strength to wound it. That particular death sounded brutal to me. Most of the other ones were too though.