[Spoilers] The Princess and the Queen, complete spoilers discussion

[maidenandwarrior]

After reading tPatQ I read Jamies ADwD PoV at Raventree and here some cool things i noticed.

Hoster Blackwood tells Jamie in ADwD There’s a statue of Lady Melissa in the godswood at Raventree. And he tells Jamie that Aegon IV granted the "Teats" to her specifically. So it seems as though Lady Melissa is remembered positively at Raventree.

There's also this exchange between Hoster and Jamie about the animosity between Blackwood and Bracken:

The Old King Jaehaery's peace... some fresh quarrel the Dance of Dragons. Old wounds opened and began to bleed again, Daemon and the Weirwood. So long as men remember, the North Remembers and so do the Blackwood apparently. The red sky reminds jamie of Rhaegar's kids it reminded me of the blood red sky when Daemon and Aemond fight above the Gods Eye.

Raventree is surrounded by nettles and sheep bones when Jamie travels through in ADwD:

Yeah, the parallels between Daemon and Jaime were just jumping out at me all over the place. From his familial relationship to his wife, to their two sons and daughter, the child murder/ attempted murder, facility in battle, being feared/respected by the populace and scorned, motivated by revenge, to the relationship with Nettles much like Jaime's with Brienne, to their trip/quest, to even the letter given to them by the maester that seems to be the turning point in the relationship with the significant other. Even Harrenhal and the Riverlands story lines are loose parallels. Very interesting, and I am not sure what to make of it all.

ETA: Did anyone notice that quote that came after Daemon's final battle?

"Thus passed the last living creature from the days of Aegon's Conquest, as dusk and darkness swallowed Black Harren's accursed seat."

This really confused me. Wasn't the seat cursed before?

[direwienerdog]

:agree:

This is a great post, I absolutely agree with it.

I don't know about anyone else, but I really didn't get a romantic sense from Nettles and Daemon's relationship. I also didn't get a familial one. Actually, I couldn't put my finger on it until the later mention of Addam going to the Isle of faces, and then I immediately thought that it was Nettles instead. We are told she turned her dragon east from Maidenpool, but she could have easily doubled back. Once I really started thinking about this, I realized that the feeling I got from their (Daemon and Nettles') relationship was Mentor/Student. It would be very interesting if Nettles was connected to the Old Gods and the Greenseers and she was training Daemon.

I agree with the above posters who hoped Daemon survived. I really want to know more about him, and it would be interesting to me if he ended up on the Isle of Faces. His actions at Harrenhal are odd, and this idea of a greater destiny would clear up a lot of things for me. Weirdly, the Blood and Cheese incident reminded me of Jaime and Bran. Can't wait for the World Book now!

This thought about Nettles being mentor to Daemon interests me. Remember the last day in Maidenpool she feeds Sheepsteeler a black ram. The biggest black ram in Maidenpool. She has blood all over herself as she is saddling her dragon. Did she just feed him or was it a sacrificial ram?

Might she be connected to the Old Gods '. Is that why Daemon spends the 13 days near Harrenhal' s heart tree and chooses the God's Eye as battle ground?

[The Lord's Kiss]

Cannibal was too tricky to catch. That and everyone on Dragonstone seemed terrified of him. "Leave Cannibal be and he will leave us be." is pretty much how they see it.

This is making me think of Cannibal as an allegory for the entirety of House Targaryen. The strong kill the weak, smaller dragons, hatchlings, even eggs, and at the end the king actually feeds his sister to his wounded dragon.

ETA: Did anyone notice that quote that came after Daemon's final battle?

"Thus passed the last living creature from the days of Aegon's Conquest, as dusk and darkness swallowed Black Harren's accursed seat."

This really confused me. Wasn't the seat cursed before?

I think it was just reinforcing Harrenhal's curse. Larys Strong seems to have escaped the curse, though his descendants did not. Interesting that Robert Strong will be defending Cersei.

[Jaak]

The thing I like about many of the Targaryens of this generation (there are exceptions, like Aemond) is that for many of them, possessing dragons instills a certain amount of responsibility. It also applies pressure on them to lead through action instead of sending others off to fight their battles for them.

Would you comment on speculations at:

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/100608-hawking-dragonmail-etc/

Anyone interested?

[sertravisredbeard]

It hadn't really occurred to me that Daemon might have survived although it does make sense. He spends a lot of time with Nettles and her dragon, a lot of it alone throughout the riverlands, then refuses to obey the queen's orders to execute her. He'd been a pretty good strategist throughout the war, but then decides to take on Aemond and Vhagar alone with his dragon. The battle isn't seen by anyone except Alys Rivers, but she doesn't seem him die, just both dragons land in the God's Eye. Aemond's body is found, but not Daemon's. Lot of possiblity for trickery. It'd be cool if Daemon and Nettles planned the fight, with Nettles and Sheepstealer waiting for the other two dragons to get above the clouds where no one else could see them before Nettles shows up and surprises Vhagar. Then Daemon could hop on Sheepstealer's back and they can run off together. Pretty awesome theory.

[The hairy bear]

Ser Otto was quite surprising. I expected him too to be a bad Hand given Jaime's opinion of him in ASOIAF (a learned man but a terrible hand). He had been at it for 25 years at least and made sensible decisions during TPatQ. Had a firm control on his council and succeeded in bringing Storm's End to the Greens.

History must remember Otto Hightower for being a Hand fired by his own son for being ineffectual and only writing letteres instead of leading a war. Also, I can see how he may end hated by both the blacks (as an enemy and the main traitor to Viserys will) and the greens (as they'll resent the lord who started the war but failed to take profit of the momentum, and eventually was the one who "lost" King's Landing).

Both Rhaenyra and Aegon are styled "Queen/King of the Andals, the Rhoynar, and the First Men." Sure, this makes sense in a post-Daeron II realm, but Dorne remained independent in the time of the Dance.

I see two possibilities. This is either propaganda, as many people used titles/styles as boasts and claims instead of statements of fact, or it's a mistake. We know Aegon wanted Dorne, and that his attempts at conquest failed, but we don't see any other indication of an ongoing claim there.

It's propaganda, for sure. The English kings styled themselves "kings of France" for centuries after they lost theyr continental holdings, the king of Spain still calls himself "king of Jerusalem",... Monarchs tend to be lunatics with a huge sense of entitlement.

I just finished the story but I'm kind of confused. Who's left of the Blacks to still fight?

The main leaders of the blacks still alive and free are lord Cregan Stark, lady Jeyne Arryn, the Manderly brothers, lord Thadeus Rowan, young lord Blackwood, lords Celtigar and Bar Emmon.

It may not be much, but the greens are not in a much better shape...

Hell, an angry mob with fairly rudimentary weapons is enough to kill, what, four or five of them in the pit? And other than the hatchlings (and Aegon's was a baby but still big enough for him to ride), I'm sure the pit dragons that were killed were bigger than Dany's.

During the Storming of the Dragonpit, the dragons were chained and closed in small tunnels that limited their movements a lot. Two of them are described as hatchlings, so they had to be very small (Moondancer was older and it's described as "no larger than a warhorse").

Tyraxes and Dreamfyre were chained, and were attacked with spears and arrows from the front entrance and the back one. IMO, that doesn't disprove that dragons are worth an army in the battlefield.

If the maestars really did arrange for the dragons to die off, then this civil war justified it. A lot of posters (maybe even me, can't recall) seem to take Marwyn at his word that the meastars moved against the dragons because "magic" beasts have no place in their world of reason and research. However, the long list of towns destroyed makes it clear the dragons were a humanitarian crisis waiting to happen, again. Aegon the Conqueror appeared to use his dragons and fellow riders judiciously to win decisive battlefield victories, or to take strong castles.

It's worth noting that out of the 21 living dragons before the Dance, only 4 survived it. Out of them, Shepstealer never returned Westeros, while Silverwing and the Cannibal were old dragons that could very well die of natural causes. (The other would be the mystery dragon Ran mentioned)

My point is: perhaps we don't need the Dragonbane or the of maesters to kill the dragons. And if any of them did anything in that regard, it had to be in a very small scale.

We once again have an example of a King's will versus the "law." Aegon II claimed he followed Andal law, where the sons of a man's body ALWAYS come before hid daughters. In contrast, Rhaenyra was named the heir in the king's will, and years earlier many lords had vowed to fight for her inheritance. If so, who is the traitor or usurper?

If Ser Otto Hightower (or any other lord) had challenged Viserys I in his liftime it would be different. They could have asked him to summon a Great Council and let the realm decide. But waiting until his death to move against the king's will you have been entrusted with is the very definition of treason.

Rhaena is the most likely candidate to be Viserys’ wife considering their age and the fact that Aegon III appears to have married Jaehaera (Aegon II’s daughter), IIRC.

After George gave him the complete Tararyen family tree, Ran said that the wife of Viserys II was not a Targaryen.

[Barty]

History must remember Otto Hightower for being a Hand fired by his own son for being ineffectual and only writing letteres instead of leading a war. Also, I can see how he may end hated by both the blacks (as an enemy and the main traitor to Viserys will) and the greens (as they'll resent the lord who started the war but failed to take profit of the momentum, and eventually was the one who "lost" King's Landing).

It's propaganda, for sure. The English kings styled themselves "kings of France" for centuries after they lost theyr continental holdings, the king of Spain still calls himself "king of Jerusalem",... Monarchs tend to be lunatics with a huge sense of entitlement.

The main leaders of the blacks still alive and free are lord Cregan Stark, lady Jeyne Arryn, the Manderly brothers, lord Thadeus Rowan, young lord Blackwood, lords Celtigar and Bar Emmon.

It may not be much, but the greens are not in a much better shape...

During the Storming of the Dragonpit, the dragons were chained and closed in small tunnels that limited their movements a lot. Two of them are described as hatchlings, so they had to be very small (Moondancer was older and it's described as "no larger than a warhorse").

Tyraxes and Dreamfyre were chained, and were attacked with spears and arrows from the front entrance and the back one. IMO, that doesn't disprove that dragons are worth an army in the battlefield.

It's worth noting that out of the 21 living dragons before the Dance, only 4 survived it. Out of them, Shepstealer never returned Westeros, while Silverwing and the Cannibal were old dragons that could very well die of natural causes. (The other would be the mystery dragon Ran mentioned)

My point is: perhaps we don't need the Dragonbane or the of maesters to kill the dragons. And if any of them did anything in that regard, it had to be in a very small scale.

If Ser Otto Hightower (or any other lord) had challenged Viserys I in his liftime it would be different. They could have asked him to summon a Great Council and let the realm decide. But waiting until his death to move against the king's will you have been entrusted with is the very definition of treason.

After George gave him the complete Tararyen family tree, Ran said that the wife of Viserys II was not a Targaryen.

DreamFyre broke her chains and was flying around, Syrax was neither bound nor even in the DragonPit, yet both meet their end in the mob.

And DreamFyre and Syrax are 20 times older than Danny's dragons(if not more) and Tyraxes was probably older than Danny's as well.

No body is stating Dragons are useless in combat yet they certainly are not WMDs and if caught in a winter storm(like the one Stannis is in right now) or even on a snowy day(limiting their fires' range and their movement speed on the ground) they become easy targets.

Not too mention that even in hot conditions like Dorne they can still be killed by arrow and scorpion fire(Meraxes).

[The hairy bear]

Regarding the Storming of the Dragonpit:

• Morghul and Shrykos were hatchlings, smaller than horses and with fire that "could set straw aflame". Easy targets.
  
• Tyraxes and Dreamfyre were chained in a tunnel, and were attacked from the front and from behind. They could only throw flames in one direction, while from the other they were hit with arrows and lances. It's a situation that will never be reproduced in a battlefield. Still, Tyraxes fares well enough until he gets entangled with the chains.
  
• When Dreamfyre got free she already had received a bolt in the eye, and was "half blind and maddened from a dozen of lesser wounds". Still, she flied away and didn't die because of the mob, but because she collided against the dome and was crashed under it when it fell.
  
• Syrax is the hardest to explain. Note that even Glyndan offers multiple versions and doesn't trust any. But he remarks that the dragon's actions could not be understood. Instead of fleeing, or attacking from the top, the dragon "descended unto the mobs, rending them with tooth and claw". So, with no explanation, Syrax decided to renounce the flying advantage and engage in hand to hand combat on the ground. That would never happened with a rider
  

I agree with you when you say that dragons are invincible weapons that allow you to win any engagement alone by themselves. Rhaenys/Meraxes death in Dorne proved that. But I also think that the Field of Fire is a much better indicator of a dragon's prowess than the Storming of the Dragonpit.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Interesting tidbit that I don't recall seeing mentioned anywhere else yet. Both Rhaenyra and Aegon are styled "Queen/King of the Andals, the Rhoynar, and the First Men." Sure, this makes sense in a post-Daeron II realm, but Dorne remained independent in the time of the Dance.

I see two possibilities. This is either propaganda, as many people used titles/styles as boasts and claims instead of statements of fact, or it's a mistake. We know Aegon wanted Dorne, and that his attempts at conquest failed, but we don't see any other indication of an ongoing claim there.

Didn't Aegon the Conqueror style himself as the King of the Seven Kingdoms as well? Yet, one of those Kingdoms still remained unconquered.

I agree with you that it sounds weird and is actually (factually) wrong. But it seems that Aegon the Dragon already did the same, so Aegon II and Rhaenyra probably continued, just as Jaehaerys, Aenys and Maegor most likely did before them.

In fact, they shouldn't be able to call themselves King/Queen of Westeros, since they wouldn't have been the monarch over all of Westeros.

Yes, that's how I read it. It took me a while to work through. One thing though -- Laena Velaryon was definitely a lady.

Perhaps because she was married to a second son, and because her mother had been taken out of the line of succesion? Laena's daughters by Prince Daemon are also Ladies, and not Princesses. Perhaps when you are born into another branch than the main branch, you are no longer titled Prince of Princess, but simply Lord or Lady.

For instance, I cannot imagine the children of Princess Elaena (who married trice and had five trueborn children) were named Princesses and Princes.

Another example, Princess Rhaelle married a Baratheon Lord, but her son was titled Lord, not Prince, just as his children after him. I think with Laena the exact same thing was going on as with Steffon Baratheon.

Based on information from tPatQ and the MUSH appendix Bloodravens family tree looks to be pretty interesting:

Male Line:

Father: Aegon Targaryen IV (b.? the wiki assumes he was born “before 139”)

Paternal Grandfather: Viserys Targaryen II (b. 120 AL)

Viserys is 9 as the year 129 ends. tPartQ

Paternal Grandmother: Rhaena Targaryen* (b. 116 AL)

Rhaena is 13 in the waning days of 129 AL making her 4 years older than Viserys. tPartQ

Paternal Great-grandfather: Prince Daemon Targaryen (b. 81 – 130 AL)

Daemon supposedly dies, we never see the body, at 49 years old on the 22^nd day of the 5^th moon in the year 130 Al. tPartQ

Paternal Great-grandmother: Queen Rhaenyra Targaryen (b. 97 -130 AL)

Rhaenyra dies at the age of 33 on the 22^nd day of the 10^th month in the year 130 AL. tPartQ

*Rhaena is the most likely candidate to be Viserys’ wife considering their age and the fact that Aegon III appears to have married Jaehaera (Aegon II’s daughter), IIRC.

All told Bloodraven could be the direct descendant of 3 or 4 of the last Dragonriders, if not the last Dragonrider. Assuming Rhaena Targaryen married Viserys II, Bloodraven would also be a descendant of Leana Velaryon who would be his 3^rd great-grand parent, and that would make him a descendent of Rhaena Targaryen the QWNW. And Daemon Targaryen, aka Uber-Targ, is his great-grandfather x2! Assuming Daemon somehow survived the impact (Ran hints at as much) and made it out to the Isle of Faces he would have only been 94 when BR was born (relatively speaking that’s young…plenty of time for them to hang out talk about the old gods, spy on the neighbors, and plot to control the world form their secret hideouts).

Female Line:

Mother: Melissa or Mylessa Blackwood (b. 158),

Maternal Grandfather: Benjicot “Bloody Ben” Blackwood, Lord of Raventree Hall (b. 117),

Maternal Grandmother: Lady Ellyn of House Baratheon (b. 119),

Maternal Uncle: Seth (b. 138), heir to Raventree Hall, m. Marian Stark (b. 140),

Maternal Greataunt: {Lady Alysanne} of House Blackwood (b. 113-146), married to Cregan Stark (b. 108), Lord of Winterfell, Warden of the North.

(This information all comes from the MUSH…and it’s not Canon…as far as I know.)

Bastard Relative of Unknown Relation: Red Robb Rivers, The Bowman of Raventree, (b.?)

Assuming this Melissa Blackwood (born 158 AL) is the same person as Lady Mylessa "Missy" Blackwood, than she’s Bloodraven's mother (she would be 17 when he was born in 175 AL, so it’s quite possible). This means Bloodraven’s maternal grandfather was Benjicot Blackwood who fought in the Dance as a boy of 11. Ben witnessed the death of three of the last dragons from within range of their flames (a distance 50 yards) and eventually ordered the mercy killing Tessarion (Billy Burley placed 3 arrows in her eye from 100 yards and out of the range of her flames). Bloodraven’s maternal grandmother was a Baratheon (presumably one of the illiterate lords little sisters). And His Uncle was Seth Blackwood who married a Stark (Marina), as did his greataunt/mother-in-law Alysanne Blackwood who was Cregan Stark's second wife and the mother of Seth’s wife Marina Stark. And there's Red Robb Rivers an illigitmate, though recognized, relative of unknown relation to Raventree known for his archery skills.

I think that would be a bit strange. I can absolutely believe this Melissa Blackwood is Missy, mother to Bloodraven. The age would match. But for this to be correct, Melissa's mother would have been 39 years old when she was born. Not entirely impossible, but incredibly strange. That would be very old for a woman to still have children, even in Westerosi times.

Not to mention Larys and Varys rhyme. Real original there, GRRM. I guess the strain of coming up with the dozens of new names for TPATQ like Hobert and Orwyle took its toll.

Larys Clubfoot continues GRRM's ongoing theme of disabled = badass. And it's no surprise to me that the misfit drab, brown, "notably ugly" Sheepstealer is the one which survives the Dance, while the beautiful, resplendent dragons are the ones that perish by the truckload. By way of foreshadowing, I similarly expect the "beautiful people" in ASOIAF (Margaery, Aegon, Arianne, Harry the Heir, etc.) to start dropping like flies when GRRM ups the body count, while they are survived by their much uglier, disabled, or outcast peers.

I thought of How to Train Your Dragon as well! In addition to Hiccup plying Toothless with fish and bonding that way, in the opening sequence of HTTYD, several of the dragons carry off sheep during the raid.

Perhaps Larys´ name is so very similar to Varys' name, so we'll be capable of drawing other conclusions. Namely, Larys sneaks Aegon II and Jaehaera (and possibly Maelor?) out of KL using the secret tunnels. Varys is said to have done the exact same thing with baby Aegon VI. Though I admit, Larys did not switch anyone, this might have been a subtle hint from GRRM to tell us that it is possible that Varys actually did sneak out Aegon VI?

Also, I hope for Larys that someone helped him. Aegon II was still injured, and most likely needed help walking. Jaehaera (sweet and simple -> a hint that she was mentally a bit behind?) would have been a six year old, frightened girl. She might not have been willing to cooperate. And perhaps little Maelor was sneaked away as well. He would have needed to be carried. And everything had to happen in silence, otherwise they might have been heard on the other sides of the walls.

[The Sleeper]

So this is what the war of five kings would look like in outline. A departure from Martin's usual narrative style, entirely plot driven and packed with action, intrigue tragedy and outright horror delivered at a breakneck pace. It is easy to see how fully developed it would rival the size of Asoiaf.

Indeed as the master states both titles, "dance of the dragons" and "the princess and the queen", as well as the detouched and omniscient style of the narrator don't quite prepare for the condenced mayhem these pages contain. Martin chose to rely purely on the content of the plot and the events and I found the results thoroughly engrossing and exciting. Quite the treat.

A few observations. I don't get where the reviewer from Tor got her pronouncements about the Starks, Lannisters and Greyjoys. They are barely mentioned in the story. Apart from the Lannisters the other great houses have steered clear of directly being involved in the conflict so far. The Tullys seem a non entity and the Reach seems to be ran by the Hightowers rather than the Tyrells. Second tier houses also seem much more prominent in this struggle. There is also the much smaller number of the armies compared not only to the ASoIaF, but also to the conquest. Subject to how the rest of the war turns out, the story paints a rather different political landscape from the semiautonomous kingdoms of the novels. The great lords seem considerably less powerful but also more resentful of the central authority of the Iron Throne as indicated by the Arryns lack of direct involvement, the absence of the stormlords the lack of response from the Red Cracken and the absence of the Starks, though in their case they might have sent the Dustins and the Manderlys ahead in order to assemble a full size army.

The other thing that I noticed is that dragon-riding seems to work through mundane means with no need of the supernatural at all. The Targaryens don't really seem to know what they are doing and there is a lot of hit and miss. The dragon seeds puts the whole blood of the dragon deal in serious question, particularly Addam of Hull and the questions about his origons. Dany probably has a supernatural connection with her dragons and the old Valyrians probably as well. This does not seem to be the case with these Targaryens.

[Maia]

Dragons being WMDs was mostly something that Dany's detractors nattered about, because they were incensed about her "unfair" advantage.

It has been fairly clear for some time that they had their limitations - not just due to the failed conquest of Dorne, but also because it took centuries for Valyria to build it's empire, despite having much larger numbers of dragons than Targaryens ever had in Westeros. It took five major wars to subdue Ghis, no?

Re: Larys/Varys, I am now more convinced than ever that "Varys" is a sly pseudonym and that his real name is Maelys The Younger or Daemon The Youngest or something along these lines. It actually makes sense for Master of Whisperers to be something other than a conventional Westerosi noble, which all the other small council members mostly are, so odd people in this role don't surprise me.

And I think that this episode actually shows something very different - namely, that Varys had the ability to spirit Elia and _both_ her children away, but chose not to. I.e. unlike Larys, he wasn't actually loyal to the dynasty he professed to serve. And that Aegon is definitely fake. But historical precedent makes his story more believable than it appeared at the first glance.

Though the fact that Varys and Illyrio intended him to bond with a dragon in ADwD is a strong indication that he has a lot of Targaryen blood. Because TPatQ shows that it is horribly dangerous for anybody else to have a go at it. You may chose to believe that the "seeds" had no Targaryen blood (I think differently, but YMMV), but the fact is that we never heard anything about a known Targaryen dying while trying to claim a dragon. And given everything invested in Aegon, I very much doubt that Varys and Illyrio would have gone for 1:10 or so chance that he might, just might survive such an attempt as some random orphan from Lys or whatever.

Another interesting thing worth noting is that the wild dragons apparently didn't mate and procreate. Strange, no? Were they all of the same sex or what?

Also, they were all different ages, so likely came from the eggs hatched by Targaryen children who died before claiming them and/or had to claim an older dragon that suddenly lost it's rider, rather than from an overlooked cache of eggs that hatched naturally.

[The Sleeper]

Dragons being WMDs was mostly something that Dany's detractors nattered about, because they were incensed about her "unfair" advantage.

It has been fairly clear for some time that they had their limitations - not just due to the failed conquest of Dorne, but also because it took centuries for Valyria to build it's empire, despite having much larger numbers of dragons than Targaryens ever had in Westeros. It took five major wars to subdue Ghis, no?

Re: Larys/Varys, I am now more convinced than ever that "Varys" is a sly pseudonym and that his real name is Maelys The Younger or Daemon The Youngest or something along these lines. It actually makes sense for Master of Whisperers to be something other than a conventional Westerosi noble, which all the other small council members mostly are, so odd people in this role don't surprise me.

And I think that this episode actually shows something very different - namely, that Varys had the ability to spirit Elia and _both_ her children away, but chose not to. I.e. unlike Larys, he wasn't actually loyal to the dynasty he professed to serve. And that Aegon is definitely fake. But historical precedent makes his story more believable than it appeared at the first glance.

Though the fact that Varys and Illyrio intended him to bond with a dragon in ADwD is a strong indication that he has a lot of Targaryen blood. Because TPatQ shows that it is horribly dangerous for anybody else to have a go at it. You may chose to believe that the "seeds" had no Targaryen blood (I think differently, but YMMV), but the fact is that we never heard anything about a known Targaryen dying while trying to claim a dragon. And given everything invested in Aegon, I very much doubt that Varys and Illyrio would have gone for 1:10 or so chance that he might, just might survive such an attempt as some random orphan from Lys or whatever.

Another interesting thing worth noting is that the wild dragons apparently didn't mate and procreate. Strange, no? Were they all of the same sex or what?

Also, they were all different ages, so likely came from the eggs hatched by Targaryen children who died before claiming them and/or had to claim an older dragon that suddenly lost it's rider, rather than from an overlooked cache of eggs that hatched naturally.

There were dragon less Targaryens and six unclaimed dragons. Granted in the current generation they were very young, but there were previous Targaryens with no named dragons. For most of the current dragons we get named previous riders and Syrax despite being quite large apparently had no previous owner, which also suggests that Tessarion, Tyraxes and Sunfyre who are probably considerably older than their riders might not have had a previous owner either. For instance, who did Viserys the first ride? Laenor had a dragon, but what about Laena?

Bastardy makes a person's ancestry debatable by default and the text specifically states that people other than dragon seeds attempted to ride the dragons. It allows for the inference that succeed were dragon seeds but doesn't state it specifically. This implies that it was believed the had Targaryen blood, because they succeed not because their ancestry was confirmed through other means. In short the story seems, to me, to undermine the notion of Targaryen blood as a prerequisite for dragon riding.

The three wild dragons were all male.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Dragons being WMDs was mostly something that Dany's detractors nattered about, because they were incensed about her "unfair" advantage.

It has been fairly clear for some time that they had their limitations - not just due to the failed conquest of Dorne, but also because it took centuries for Valyria to build it's empire, despite having much larger numbers of dragons than Targaryens ever had in Westeros. It took five major wars to subdue Ghis, no?

Re: Larys/Varys, I am now more convinced than ever that "Varys" is a sly pseudonym and that his real name is Maelys The Younger or Daemon The Youngest or something along these lines. It actually makes sense for Master of Whisperers to be something other than a conventional Westerosi noble, which all the other small council members mostly are, so odd people in this role don't surprise me.

And I think that this episode actually shows something very different - namely, that Varys had the ability to spirit Elia and _both_ her children away, but chose not to. I.e. unlike Larys, he wasn't actually loyal to the dynasty he professed to serve. And that Aegon is definitely fake. But historical precedent makes his story more believable than it appeared at the first glance.

Though the fact that Varys and Illyrio intended him to bond with a dragon in ADwD is a strong indication that he has a lot of Targaryen blood. Because TPatQ shows that it is horribly dangerous for anybody else to have a go at it. You may chose to believe that the "seeds" had no Targaryen blood (I think differently, but YMMV), but the fact is that we never heard anything about a known Targaryen dying while trying to claim a dragon. And given everything invested in Aegon, I very much doubt that Varys and Illyrio would have gone for 1:10 or so chance that he might, just might survive such an attempt as some random orphan from Lys or whatever.

Another interesting thing worth noting is that the wild dragons apparently didn't mate and procreate. Strange, no? Were they all of the same sex or what?

Also, they were all different ages, so likely came from the eggs hatched by Targaryen children who died before claiming them and/or had to claim an older dragon that suddenly lost it's rider, rather than from an overlooked cache of eggs that hatched naturally.

Perhaps, but look at it this way. Larys took not only a child out of KL, but also the rival King. And so, the war continued for about a year.

Varys took only a child out of KL, and made it look as if the child in question had died. The war ended.

I'm not saying it was impossible for Varys to take Elia and Rhaenys out of KL. Of course it was possible. If Varys can lead Tyrion through a secret hallway, he could also have lead Elia and Rhaenys through it. You'll never hear me say that it couldn't be done.

But Varys' actions did not prevent the war from ending. Had he stolen Elia, Rhaenys and Aegon out of KL without leaving a substitute for them in the capitol, the war would have continued. People would know the three to have still been alive. Where would he hide then? Even if he could get Aegon out of sight, Robert would still have known the child to be alive, and there would never be a chance for Varys to train the child as well as he has been trained now.

There was no need for Elia to die, she was supposed to be safe, although she might have been made a hostage. Rhaenys was a tricky one. I don't know Varys' reasoning for this. Perhaps we'll hear it in WoW.

Larys took all two (three?) the royals out of KL, but he also left a few behind. Helaena was just as much a Targaryen as Aegon II, yet she wasn't taken along. Aegon was the monarch (just as Aegon VI is) and so he had to be taken along, and Jaehaera would have made an easy marriage alliance for someone whose loyalty might fade a bit, to bring said family back to Aegon's cause. Maelor was Aegon's heir, so he had to come along.

And don't forget. The plan to have Aegon VI bond with a dragon - if that is the plan at all, since it is never mentioned, and people are assuming this only because it would make sense - is a recent one. Dany was supposed to have died amongst the Dothraki. Her eggs weren't supposed to hatch. Only when Viserys died, Dany lived, and the dragon eggs hatched and produced three healthy dragons, did Varys and Illyrio saw fit to alter their plan.That's about a year before Aegon VI starts to invade Westeros.

Their original plan did not involve actual dragons.

[Hardstone]

snip

Aye, I was looking for this as I remembered the quote about Jaehaerys and peace. The Blackwoods obviously fought for the Blacks and when Daemon is rallying support in the Riverlands, the text says that Stone Hedge was subdued. So once again, Blackwoods and Brackens fought on opposite sides of a major conflict. I think Robert's Rebellion is the only conflict where they were on the same side as far as I'm aware.

Re: Syrax. I don't recall Syrax using fire during the Joffrey flight or descending on the dragonpit. She landed in the pit to use tooth and claw, not flame?

Is it possible that if the Byron Swann situation happened in King's Landing they were trying to poison Syrax? Maybe the Maesters knew of something that could prevent a dragon from breathing fire and Swann was part of the group that was sent to test it? They succeeded but it cost their lives.

[Lord Brynden]

One thing I wonder about, though: Jaehaerys's issue. Was Baelon his son, or his grandson? Who was Aemon? And who is Daemon's father?

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

One thing I wonder about, though: Jaehaerys's issue. Was Baelon his son, or his grandson? Who was Aemon? And who is Daemon's father?

We all wonder about this :D

Aemon was the father of Princess Rhaenys, who we know was born in 74 AL. Since Daemon (the second son of a younger son of King Jaehaerys) was 49 years old when he died in 130 AL, he was born in 81 AL, making him a total of seven years younger than Rhaenys. Daemon's brother Viserys, would have been born in 80 AL at the latest, since he was the elder.

So agewise, it seems as if Rhaenys, Daemon and Viserys were all of the same generation. Further, we'll have to count backwards.

Assuming Aegon had all his children after the Conquest (someone, I believe it was Lord Varys, made some very good arguments for this on another thread, though I can't remember which one), and assuming Aegon would first want to be sure there was peace, all his children must have been born after the Conquest was over (after 2 AL). They can't have waited for too long, because at the time of the Conquest, Aegon was already 27 years old, and Visenya and Rhaenys 29 and 26 respectively.

If Rhaenys and Aegon had their first child in 4 AL (this would have been a girl), Aenys would have been born in 5 or 6 AL most likely. This would mean Maegor, 5 years younger than Aenys, was born in 10 or 11 AL.

With Aenys having been born around 4 AL, and Rhaenys (the Queen Who Never Was) in 74 AL, that gives us 70 years for three generations at least to grow up, marry and have children. On average, these three men would have been 23 years old before their first son was born (though Jaehaerys had an older sister, so Aenys would have been a bit younger than 23 when his first child was born).

Should there be four generations (so Aenys - Jaehaerys - Unknown - Aemon - Rhaenys), each would have been 17.5 at the birth of their first born child. This is, of course, also possible.

But the fact that both Viserys and Daemon seem to have been of age with Rhaenys, and since it is known Viserys was Jaehaerys' grandson, it is most likely Rhaenys was Jaehaerys' granddaughter, which would make Aemon his son. And seeing as Rhaenys was considered twice to become an heir to the throne, Aemon must indeed have been the firstborn son (or, better said, the oldest son to have children of his own).

Baelon we don't know anything about, except for that in 92 AL, the question of "who becomes heir" was between Rhaenys and Baelon. In 101 AL Baelon was no longer considered, making it almost logical that Baelon died that year.

Baelon could have been Rhaenys' younger brother, or the father of Viserys and Daemon. Without any more information, it would be impossible to tell.

[Ibbison from Ibben]

A few more thoughts.

On Marwyn's claim-

"Who do you think killed all the dragons the last time around? Gallant dragonslayers armed with swords?"

On the surface, the account we are given doesn't show any maesters doing much to eliminate dragons. Of course, tPatQ is written by an archmaester who would be keen to cover any traces of Citadel plans. However, the situation at Viserys' death is strange, as everyone has pointed out. Rhaenyra is his proclaimed heir, but the Small Council is packed with her opponents. Perhaps that was the work of GM Orwyle. By giving bad advice to Viserys, he set up a situation where civil war was highly likely. Also, remember the double meanings - dragons=Targs.

On dragon hatcheries-

The largest and oldest of the wild dragons was the Cannibal, so named because he had been known to feed on the carcasses of dead dragons, and descend upon the hatcheries of Dragonstone to gorge himself on newborn hatchlings and eggs.

If dragon eggs hatch naturally on their own while in possession of their future riders, then why do dragon hatcheries exist on Dragonstone? This is more evidence that Archmaester Gyldayn is giving us partial or false information about dragon hatching and bonding. I personally don't think tPatQ is a reliable source of information on those issues; the Citadel is being intentionally misleading.

On dragons in aSoIaF-

Time after time we are fed statements that seem to be obvious, definitive truths that turn out not to be true. "Death is so final." (Tyrion in aGoT) "Whoever the mother had been, she had left little of herself in her son." (Tyrion on Jon in aGoT) And so on. We are continually told that all the old dragons are dead; that Dany's three are the only ones in the world. And yet, Bran sees dragons in the East in his dream vision. And we have that little incident in the Sorrows from aDwD-

A half-seen shape flapped by overhead, pale leathery wings beating at the fog.

This could be a small dragon. Or a large bat. When aDwD came out, lots of posters questioned this. The (valid) conclusion was that it couldn't be a dragon, because the only three that existed were accounted for. Now we know that Sheepstealer got away. We don't know about the fate of Silverwing or The Cannibal. Where in the world can a dragon hide? Off the top of my head, I can think of three obvious places - the Far East, The Sorrows, and the ruins of Valyria. Maybe more, if we count remote islands. It's looking more and more like we'll be seeing more than three dragons in tWoW.

[FrozenFire3]

He may have had prophetic dreams himself or he realized something with the help of Nettles (who may be the one with prophetic dreams). She could easily be a bastard daughter of Daemon, even although she does not claim that. It may be that Daemon only later realizes that this could be the case when he realizes that she resembles a woman he once knew.

This is what I thought too.

Hrm...

Draw your own conclusions. :)

Gods, my conclusions make me so very happy LOL

[Maia]

This implies that it was believed the had Targaryen blood, because they succeed not because their ancestry was confirmed through other means. In short the story seems, to me, to undermine the notion of Targaryen blood as a prerequisite for dragon riding.

Even if you believe that the dragonseeds were just some random people, rather than distant Targaryen/Valyrian descendants who won genetic lottery it is clearly horribly dangerous for a normal person to try to claim even a previosly ridden dragon.

I mean, scores died and even more were badly injured. Whereas we never heard about a Targaryen being killed in an attempt to claim a previously ridden dragon. Even somebody without a strong personality, such as Helaena, was able to do that. So, even though GRRM didn't confirm that blood is an absolute prequisite, it is clearly a huge help.

.

The three wild dragons were all male.

I thought that it was hinted that the Sheepstealer might be female and that she possibly mated with Caraxes?

Rhaenys_Targaryen:

Sure, Varys and Illyrio didn't count on the dragons hatching. But they were sending Aegon to join Dany and claim one of her dragons when they did hatch. Yet Westerosi history maintains that an attempt to bond with a dragon is horribly risky unless you have a lot of Targaryen blood. Like, 1: 10 odds or worse. Would they be willing to throw away all their investment in Aegon on such odds? Not IMHO.

Re: Varys wanting to stop a war, we now know that his pacifist talk is all bunk and that he is more than willing to cause or prolongue devastating wars for his own ends.

So, this doesn't float and Larys's example shows that it was certainly quite possible for a Master of Whisperers to spirit away 3 people on a very short notice. If Varys had been genuinely loyal to Targaryens he would have done so. Or, better yet, he wouldn't have torpedoed Rhaegar's move to try to secure the regency of which Harrenhal Tourney was supposed to be a first step.

Re: Varys's 20-year-long plan of molding a perfect heir, it is mad scientist grade crazy and I don't see somebody like Illyrio going along with it and investing in it so heavily if Aegon is genuinely Rhaegar's son. One needs emotional, visceral reasons to follow a plan so unlikely to succeed for decades.

And his reasons couldn't have been blind loyalty to Targaryens, as Varys did quite a bit to doom them/refrained from helping them during his tenure. While Illyrio has zero motive to begin with.

[Lord Brynden]

I suppose that puts it like:

Aegon I----Rhaenys

|

Aenys

|_____

| |

Jaehaerys-----Alysanne

________|

Aemon Baelon

| |___________

| | |

Rhaenys Viserys Daemon

| | Who married

Laenor Rhaenyra Laena, then

Laena Aegon II Rhaenyra

And the And the

rest of rest of

their lines their lines