[Spoilers] The Princess and the Queen, complete spoilers discussion

[Hardstone]

According to Eleana Targaryen's entry from So Spake Martin, the love of her life is Alyn "Oakenfist" Velaryon. However, Alyn Velaryon in P&Q is most likely older than her father, Aegon III (If Addam and Alyn are twins, Alyn is about six years older than Aegon III), so I don't understand how he would be her cousin (Unless GRRM was using the term loosely). Even if Alyn is of an age with Aegon III (which would make trying to tame and ride a fully grown, wild dragon pretty unbelievable) he would be way older than Eleana, as she one of Aegon III's youngest daughters.

The only other way for Oakenfist to be Elaena's cousin is if this Alyn Velaryon is not Oakenfist, but perhaps Oakenfist's father or grandfather (though the readership seems to agree they are the same). Aegon III went on to marry an unnamed daughter of Lord Velaryon after his wife, Aegon II's remaining daughter Jaehaera, died shortly after their marriage.

We know from P&Q that Alyn ends up a legitimized bastard, given the name Velaryon, and becomes Lord of Driftmark. This seems to point to Oakenfist being either his son or the son of one of his other children, thus making him Daeron and Elaena's cousin. (I don't recall any character being named after their father, so I'm guessing its a grandson.)

(If this is true, the westeros.org wiki for Alyn Velaryon needs some editing)

Elio confirmed they are one and the same.

[Anath]

As to Aegon's possible 'change in personality'. A real change would have been if Aegon had offered his sister some sort of reconciliation. That could have worked. Nearly the complete Targaryen dynasty was already destroyed (among them all the people who did the atrocities - i.e. Aemond and Daemon). Aegon could have offered Rhaenyra his hand in a political marriage. They could have betrothed Jaehaera to Aegon the Younger, making them their heirs. That would have been a real change of character. Instead he got off on seeing his sister being eaten by his dragon. And it's pretty obvious that this decision may be part of his undoing. The manner of Rhaenyra's demise may be one of the core things motivating the Blacks to continue the fight...

The people at KL were terrified by Aemond's kinslaying. Then, they were terrified by the cruel murder of Prince Jaehaerys. And Aegon was not much loved by them in the first place.

I think that murdering his sister in such a manner plus returning to KL where people could see all his faults like they did Rhaenyra's might have won him some more enemies. He might have made people who were in neither camp firmly Black.

Change in personality? No way. He just learned to control his bloodthirsty nature somewhat better - sometimes. And relying more on his advisors - well, there were some very physical reasons about that. He never changed.

Lord Varys, I agree with each word of your post.

On Laena: I noticed that when Baela made her last stand, she was explicitly described as 'Prince Daemon's daughter by the Lady Laena, and as fearless as her father". Why the emphasize? We already know Laena was her mother. Could itr be a way to hint that Laena had also been fearless? In a chronicle where women are hintedly looked down upon it could hardly be said that Laena had been also brave and that she maybe had died along with male dragonriders.

[Lord Varys]

On Alyn:

I already suggested that GRRM used 'cousin' here in a broader sense (meaning 'kinsman' rather than first cousin). We even have precedent for this in TMK where Egg and Bloodraven call each other 'cousin' when they are in fact granduncle and grandnephew (and should be aware of that fact).

Elaena Targaryen does seem to be a very interesting woman. I surely can see her falling in love with a much older man. This would also explain why they never married one another. Alyn may have been dead already when Elaena was free to marry a man of her own choosing. We also don't yet know who the man was she married for passion. It's pretty clear that it was not Ossifer Plumm. She most likely was forced to marry him because Aegon IV thought that funny...

[Lord Varys]

On Aegon and Alicent's future:

Nobody seems to have picked up on my idea that Aegon may also put his mother to death. In his present state he won't be able to walk or do anything by himself - which would put his mother back in a position of power and control when they are reunited in KL (assuming that Alicent is still alive). That would be precisely the type of relationship they had before Aegon's coronation. I don't think he will be able to suffer that.

Then there is the fact that a person like Aegon would blame his mother for all that happened to him during the Dance, especially for his disfigurement and wounds. 'It was your idea, your plan, your ambition that made this ruin of a man.' And he would even have a small point when saying something like that.

I really miss a good old Nero-like matricide in Westerosi history as of yet. Aegon II would be the best candidate for such a thing, I think.

[Anath]

On Aegon and Alicent's future:

Nobody seems to have picked up on my idea that Aegon may also put his mother to death. In his present state he won't be able to walk or do anything by himself - which would put his mother back in a position of power and control when they are reunited in KL (assuming that Alicent is still alive). That would be precisely the type of relationship they had before Aegon's coronation. I don't think he will be able to suffer that.

Then there is the fact that a person like Aegon would blame his mother for all that happened to him during the Dance, especially for his disfigurement and wounds. 'It was your idea, your plan, your ambition that made this ruin of a man.' And he would even have a small point when saying something like that.

I really miss a good old Nero-like matricide in Westerosi history as of yet. Aegon II would be the best candidate for such a thing, I think.

Hear you. I'd love to see this theory of yours in the 50K words that were lost to us.

Again, I still hope that somehow, the whole Dying of Dragons will come out.

On a more serious note: I do believe your theory about Aegon and Alicent's relationship after their "victory" rings true. Alicent was the one who came up with the idea, although Aegon was not slow to accept. But then, as I said, she was the one who raised him thinking that he should be king.

Hmm, but I'd also like to see Alicent suffer the victory of the Blacks at the end. Since Ran hinted that Baela survived, it would make 4 members of Rhaenyra's family surviving against 1 of Alicent's. And the Aegon on the throne is Rhaenyra's, not Alicent's.

I don't know how I want it to end...

[Kasrith]

I found Daemon's choice to fight Aemond over water rather interesting. Granted his plan involved some serious badassery on his part, but the general sense I got was that if his plan failed, he neutralizes Vhagar by having him in water.

The dragons we saw hit the water were also incredibly wounded, but I wonder if they are not particularly adept at getting out of water without swimming to shore? It only stuck a cord with me because two of Dany's dragons are right around around a large battle with large body of water.

Riderless dragons. The maester points out it was impossible to say if the dragons with dead riders who showed up were fighting for their rider's side or just partaking in the carnage. Same as above, Dany's two dragons. Seems like some major hint dropping going on.

To me, the story was just a whole lot of carnage in itself, and didn't seem like there was any foreshadowing or hints - as much as I was looking forward to identifying them preread

[Lord Varys]

I asked GRRM on his new blog post on Dangerous Women if he does not want to take 'The Dying of the Dragons' and the other source accounts on the reigns of the Targaryen kings from Aegon I to Viserys I and publish them as a separate volume (could be called 'The Days of the Dragons' or something like that). As I take it these accounts do not include spoilers to the main series (i.e. they do not include stuff about the ancient past of Westeros that is going to become important plot points in the coming War for the Dawn) so this would actually be an option. 80,000 words on the Dance alone would make for more than half a decent book, and when combined with 'The Sons of the Dragon', the account on Aegon's Conquest (including stuff on the Targaryens on Dragonstone), and the reigns of Jaehaerys I and Viserys I it could be a very large book.

No idea if there is any chance of that happening, but I'm pretty sure we are not the only ones who would want to read the full story. Not only - but especially - on the Dance, but also on many other topics the Worldbook will touch upon.

[Father of Hosts]

To me, the story was just a whole lot of carnage in itself, and didn't seem like there was any foreshadowing or hints - as much as I was looking forward to identifying them preread

I agree there wasn't much foreshadowing in regards to characters. I think with respect to dragons however, there was some major hint dropping.

We have Barristan wondering if the dragon's will show up at the battle of Mereen and then wondering who they will fight for, if anyone in particular. TPaTQ sort of spells it out for us. Plus we already have Drogon showing up at the fighting pit, more evidence of dragons being drawn to battle. I'd say its a fair hint that Viserion and Rhaegal are showing up at the battle of Mereen and probably wreaking unholy vengeance on everything.

It was a more general foreshadowing, showing us how dragons act in certain situations, allowing us to predict how Dany's unclaimed dragons will act.

[Anath]

Lord Varys, yesterday I finished a book that was 91K words and about 400 pages. 80K words only look small when we compare it to GRRM's long novels. They would make a decent book by any other standards even without additional information.

I hope we live to see them. I think it would be a terrible waste if 50K words that were already written don't reach us.

Maybe after a period, to make sure that the sales of Dangerous Women won't get affected, we'll see this story.

[MallisterTheMighty]

Does anyone else think that when they said "the triarch was rippin itself to pieces" and we know Viserys II lives and that a Tyroshi captain found Viserys but then was taken from him by a Lyseni admiral that they are fighting themselves over Viserys and which city would get the "honor" of ransoming him off. Or since we know Viserys was a clever boy and even more able hand later in life he might even be the one that puts the three daughters fighting each other.

I just find how we know he lives and eventually rules essentially through Daeron the young dragon and Baelor the blessed and even when he comes king. That

A. He didn't die

B. And he's a clever boy even at age 7

I just don't think the throw away line that the "triarchs were tearig each other apart" is just ment that they didn't participate any longer...I believe they have Viserys and are squabbling over who gets to ransom him.

[Ran]

As GRRM has already indicated, if the material is published, it will be a substantial part (the bulk of it, in fact) of the GRRMarillion.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

According to Eleana Targaryen's entry from So Spake Martin, the love of her life is Alyn "Oakenfist" Velaryon. However, Alyn Velaryon in P&Q is most likely older than her father, Aegon III (If Addam and Alyn are twins, Alyn is about six years older than Aegon III), so I don't understand how he would be her cousin (Unless GRRM was using the term loosely). Even if Alyn is of an age with Aegon III (which would make trying to tame and ride a fully grown, wild dragon pretty unbelievable) he would be way older than Eleana, as she one of Aegon III's youngest daughters.

The only other way for Oakenfist to be Elaena's cousin is if this Alyn Velaryon is not Oakenfist, but perhaps Oakenfist's father or grandfather (though the readership seems to agree they are the same). Aegon III went on to marry an unnamed daughter of Lord Velaryon after his wife, Aegon II's remaining daughter Jaehaera, died shortly after their marriage.

We know from P&Q that Alyn ends up a legitimized bastard, given the name Velaryon, and becomes Lord of Driftmark. This seems to point to Oakenfist being either his son or the son of one of his other children, thus making him Daeron and Elaena's cousin. (I don't recall any character being named after their father, so I'm guessing its a grandson.)

(If this is true, the westeros.org wiki for Alyn Velaryon needs some editing)

Indeed, as Kcenturion said, they have been confirmed to have been the same Alyn Velaryon.

Don't forget that Aegon III marries a Velaryon bride. If this girl was a daughter of Addam (who was 15 or 16 years old when he died), than any children she might have had would have been cousins to Alyn.

The scenario you suggest would only work if Alyn was the son of a son of Lord Corlys and Princess Rhaenys. If Alyn had only been the son of Corlys, there would be no bloodline between Alyn and the Targaryens. Corlys married a Targaryen, but he wasn't related to them by blood. His children, however, were.

Since we don't know exactly how Alyn is related to Aegon III's Velaryon queen, and since we don't even know if that scenario still exists, we can only guess. But I'm guessing that Addam's potential daughter becomming Aegon III's queen is the most likely, until new information has been given. For as far as we know, Corlys had no siblings or any other family left. Thus the need for heirs to the Driftmark by legitimizing bastards. Alyn can't be the father of Aegon's bride, for that would make him Elaena's grandfather. So any child of Addam's would fit perfectly.

If Alyn was the bastard son of Laenor (only son of Corlys and Rhaenys), there would be indeed a blood connection between Alyn and Elaena that could count for them being cousins. But then where does this Velaryon bride of Aegon III suddenly come from? There would be no Velaryon left (other than Alyn, who can't be the one) to have fathered her. Any Velaryon who was left after the Dance would have challenged Alyn's claim for the Driftmark. And we do know Alyn became the Lord of the Driftmark, so we know there were no other Velaryon's left.

[dotheknifefight]

The SSM about Elaena is not cannon. Its not what ended up happening in his final tooling of the story.

Laena and Laenor did not die on the Stepstones.

[Anath]

Laena and Laenor did not die on the Stepstones.

Where and when did they die?

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

The SSM about Elaena is not cannon. Its not what ended up happening in his final tooling of the story.

If we can't believe what GRRM tells us, then what can we believe? They were his own words, and if we can't trust his words anymore on history he thought of himself, then what can we believe?

[Fire Eater]

On Aegon and Alicent's future:

Nobody seems to have picked up on my idea that Aegon may also put his mother to death. In his present state he won't be able to walk or do anything by himself - which would put his mother back in a position of power and control when they are reunited in KL (assuming that Alicent is still alive). That would be precisely the type of relationship they had before Aegon's coronation. I don't think he will be able to suffer that.

Then there is the fact that a person like Aegon would blame his mother for all that happened to him during the Dance, especially for his disfigurement and wounds. 'It was your idea, your plan, your ambition that made this ruin of a man.' And he would even have a small point when saying something like that.

I really miss a good old Nero-like matricide in Westerosi history as of yet. Aegon II would be the best candidate for such a thing, I think.

I don't think that's too far a pitch.

One another note, Alicent supposedly tells Aegon that Rhaenyra's side would kill his children if he didn't take the crown, and this ends up becoming a self-fulfilling prophecy.

[Ran]

Only the Shadow knows...

Rhaenys,

Per the very front page of the SSM:

Mr. Martin's statements via e-mail, chats, interviews, or bulletin boards are his property and used with his express permission given on April 6, 1999:

"I would have no problem with you collecting my "words" (by which I assume you mean interviews, public comments, letters, etc, rather than fiction), provided that I could ask you to pull down anything I decided I did not want up there -- misquotes, outdated info, slips of the tongue, etc."

While he hasn't actually ever bothered to tell us to take things down, the fact that he may change his mind about something is implicit in the above. In the case of his remarks regarding a Velaryon Hand marrying his daughter to Aegon, that is one of those things. The history changed substantially between his initial, early ideas that he first formulated years ago, to what he actually produced when he got down to writing the history of the era.

Similarly, those who have the GoT RPG will recall that Rhaenyra was supposed to be wed to Lord Strong. This is another thing that changed substantially as he wrote.

So.. it's not so much that you can't trust him. It's just that what he says is sort of semi-canon -- it's fair to guess that's how things are, until the published texts come out and reveal that things have changed.

[dotheknifefight]

Where and when did they die?

we don't know. but we can guess sometime between 116AL and 120AL based on their children's births and Rhaenyra's marriage to Daemon.

If we can't believe what GRRM tells us, then what can we believe? They were his own words, and if we can't trust his words anymore on history he thought of himself, then what can we believe?

Those SSM were written a long time ago, and its REALLY understandable that he has changed the story to fit what he's been actually writing. (Refer to Ran's post above me)

The only thing we can trust is what is PUBLISHED.

[Maia]

Maybe, along with all other changes, Aegon III's "Velaryon" wife will be actually Rhaena Targaryen? Or Baela, but IMHO her injuries make it unlikely that she would be queen.

As to whose bastards Addam and Alyn were, I am not sure why it would be unclear if Corlys was their father. His wife was dead, his children were dead, he could have claimed them without offending anybody. Maybe they were Laenor's... or even Laena's. Since both still had spouses living, publicising the boys' origins would have shamed the respective half of the royal couple.

It is curious that Corlys moved to make Addam heir to Driftmark while Joffrey and his granddaughters were still available. Presumably, Driftmark was supposed to be too lowly for a second son of a reigning queen? And the girls were now slated to marry Jace and Joffrey? Seems to me that it might have been better to have one of them available for an alliance marriage, but YMMV.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Only the Shadow knows...

Rhaenys,

Per the very front page of the SSM:

While he hasn't actually ever bothered to tell us to take things down, the fact that he may change his mind about something is implicit in the above. In the case of his remarks regarding a Velaryon Hand marrying his daughter to Aegon, that is one of those things. The history changed substantially between his initial, early ideas that he first formulated years ago, to what he actually produced when he got down to writing the history of the era.

Similarly, those who have the GoT RPG will recall that Rhaenyra was supposed to be wed to Lord Strong. This is another thing that changed substantially as he wrote.

So.. it's not so much that you can't trust him. It's just that what he says is sort of semi-canon -- it's fair to guess that's how things are, until the published texts come out and reveal that things have changed.

Thank you Ran! :)

I understand that GRRM might change his mind about things and writes those changes into his story.Wasn't Rhaenyra originally supposed to have been only a year older than Aegon? That changed into ten.

Yet it was suggested that it was certain the SSM about Elaena was no longer valid. And I don't recall reading anything that suggested such.