Anath

I don't really get the big problem with cheating. I see only one problem: that men could do it openly and women might get the walk of shame. But that's just how it is. Elia would have to suck it if that was the only thing Rhaegar did. However, I see a huge problem with how Rhaegar the Great went with it. Did he really need to humiliate his wife at Harrehnall because poor dear was soooo deserving of a little respite in a life of "miserable dutifulness"? Even if it was because he wanted to acknowledge Lyanna for standing for someone humiliated. By the way, if the crowning was this romantic turn on for noble Lyanna, I'd say it places her in the same category as Robert, Littlefinger and basically everyone we meet and who Ned Stark had a good opinion of. She stood for the humiliated one but someone being humiliated for all the world to see is so romantic because it's for her! Anyway, Rhaegar didn't need to make it so public. And if he needed his precious Lyanna so much, he could have gone about it more discreetly and most importantly, not in a way that put his existing children in danger from Aerys now and a few years down the road from Lyanna's offspring. That, I would have had no problem with. Then again, we don't even know when the Aegon conversation took place. Generally, it's accepted that it happened when Rhaegar already knew he wouldn't get a third child from Elia. It's even used to "show" that Elia understood, accepted and encouraged him. But it might have been before the maesters told him this grave piece of news. He might have been contemplating the danger for Elia v. the promosed prince. And when he got to know there would be no third head, he might have well decided that the three heads would be Lyanna's children. In fact, his actions speak more of that possibility than anything else. By the way, Selmy says Rhaegar didn't have it in himself to be happy. It wasn't duties that did it to him. He simply didn't have it. But anyway, even if it had been duties who were the great obstacle in his path, it still didn't give the right to go about his escape the way he did. It's the way that makes him unworthy in my eyes, not the fact that he wanted something and took it.

Wall Flower, if I was such a delicate little flower (pun intended), I should've better stayed away from such topics. This angle of the whole story just hits too close to home because GRRM describes it at is it, the denial included. In our case, my mom was the first one to notice that something was slighty off but of course, who was going to listen to the new wife/daughter-in-law? The problem is, denial is hard long before the person reaches Aerys' state. And everything indicates that Rhaegar had accepted it before Harrenhall, else he would not have presumably tried to do something about Aerys. Having a mentally ill family just makes your responsibility harder if you're a responsible person to start with. Lapses are inevitable along the way, but the Lyanna thing isn't something that can be excused with "But Rhaegar had it so hard, he's entitled to this little reprieve!" It's too great. As is taking the three KG with him to the Trident knowing that Aerys was the one everyone in the Red Keep obeyed, that there were only two KG who might put Elia and her children's needs before Aerys' and that both of them were far away. And that Aerys disliked Rhaenys and was suspicious of Dorne. At the time, Aerys was pliant to Rhaegar's will. Rhaegar could have sent his family away from the danger that his father was. He could have appointed a KG especially for Aegon who was presumably the future king if Rhaegar hadn't changed his mind. But he didn't. I'm fine with changing my judgment when we know more. But for what has been revealed this far about Rhaegar's actions and not the content-lacking praise he gets from nostalgic people, his conduct and faring with literally everything are appalling. Details and motivations might explain why Rhaegar thought it was the better course of action, but I can't see a way they could be worked into making what he did a good course of action. Disappearing with Lyanna was bound to throw Aerys into a higher lever of paranoia; singing la-la-la, I can't hear you and you can't find me is hardly justifiable at any case. And leaving his family with Aerys is the height of either idiocy or lack of care. You don't do that when someone stronger than them and mentally ill has shown dislike for them. Period. ETA: While I agree he only thought he had a duty to save the world, I think it probably stemmed from something Aerys and Rhaella might have planted in his head when he was young enough. Those two were forced to marry to presumably save the world. Makes sense to me that they'd try to explain to Rhaegar just how important their line would be. And for a very long time, Rhaegar was their line. It doesn't explain why he was so adamant that he was the great savior and if not he, Aegon and not a grandson from 17 generations later. To me, it doesn't excuse his actions. But it's a possible explanation.

As someone who, as a child. had ridden more than once in the backseat of a car with a mentally-ill family member in a fit while on the other side, my mom tried to restrain her, I can agree Rhaegar's life was most likely not all this great with Aerys around. Then again, I'd love to be able to pull a Rhaegar: scurry off (after knowingly incensing her) and hide from anyone who could tell me that things were going very wrong in the aftermath, for her and everyone around. And be sympathized with because I had it so hard and I was entitled to this escape, even when leaving defenseless family with her when she had shown agression to them. All of my family will love it. But it isn't the way it works for people with a mentally ill family member and I see no reason why it should be so for Rhaegar. Taking care of such people sucks. That's just how it is. IMO, Robert didn't have it in himself to be truly happy, king or not. In our lives, we all have to assume some kind of responsibility and the word itself seems enough to me to send jolly Bob into a fit of depression. I give it to him, he could have been less unhappy had things in his life happened in another way. But that's it. Whine-whine how hard it is to be king? He's great at it! Give up his crown? I don't think so. ETA: It isn't the way how it works for responsible people with a mentally ill family member. It works for many others. It worked for Rhaegar.

Robert didn't want to be king? Personally, I think it was Robert whining like any other drunken sot who hates being a drunken sot but not enough to want to actually change something. As to Rhaegar, he had it better than 99.99999% of people. In exchange, he wasn't allowed monumental follies like the Lyanna fiasco. The realm would have been far better off if he had indulged himself from time to time and not gone on "poor me, I sacrificed everything so I deserve a little love!" with the only girl who could mean trouble at such a scale. By the way, he was also quite indulging of himself. His personal wants were to run away from everything and sing sad songs to the ruins of Summerhall and he did it. The only thing he seems to truly have put aside was his reluctance to be a warrior. His marriage to Elia doesn't qualify as a great personal sacrifice. That's the way nobility marries in Westeros and I don't remember a quote saying that Rhaegar minded Aerys' plans for an Essosi bride or married Elia only reluctantly. He might have been a sad romantic who'd rather spend his life a virgin, waiting for his great love but nothing in the text even hints of this.

We have nothing to show that he was executing any plans. All we know is that he might have had some plans and that he spoke of "roads not taken". While I agree that Rhaegar got dealt a tougher hand, I can't see anything indicating that he did anything to deal with it at all. At Harrenhall, if he ever had any plans, he threw them all away for crowning Lyanna, aka insulting three great Houses at one. Nowhere close to Baelor. And that's without even going into what he did later. Personally, I think Baelor was something of a fool. Not nearly as bad as Rhaegar, though. He didn't have a mad father, he had an adult son and grandchildren on the way. There was no way to anticipate something like the Great Spring Sickness which didn't have anything remotely this lethal ever beforehand. Rhaegar had all the reasons to expect problems after his great escape to love or prophecy realm. Anyway, I was left with the impression that you presented Rhaegar as someone as great as Baelor, not as stupid as Baelor.

Baelor... Breakspear... Reborn. Now I've seen everything. Because clearly planning a monumental change like deposing a king to supposedly save the realm from his madness and then giving it up to chase after a tail or prophecy or whatever he was chasing after is the same as taking actions, something that Baelor never hesitated to do. If someone had a reason to care for the entirety and stability of the kingdom and not a separate region, it was Rhaegar. The one who would inherit it. Alas, love or prophecy took priority but nothing made him entitled to have others clear this mess for him and hand him the realm on bent knee. Having plans and not executing them is the same as having no plans at all. No credit to Rhaegar here.

By the time Daeron and the Dragonknight forced Aegon to give up his aspiring queen Barba and their son, there wasn't even a hint of the rumours that Daeron was a bastard. Those would emerge later. What is to stop Rhaegar from declaring his first marriage void (as I believe he did, thanks to the dragon heads thing) or follow in Aegon's footsteps, spreading rumours that Elia was a cheater? Rhaegar wasn't the only man with silver hair and purple eyes in the Seven Kingdoms. Of course, he might not have done any of that. But the possibility isn't one to be excluded. Children by different queens have always meant trouble in the history of the Targaryen kings. Edit: Mixing of two posts and Windows playing tricks on me, so I deleted the first part. ETA: Part of Jon being who he was is his feeling that he's a bastard. Being a Targaryen prince would have turned him into a different person. Why not Daemon Blackfyre material? He loves his Stark siblings. Can we be sure he'd love Elia's son enough to never make a try? And who is to say he'd stay Lyanna's only child/son? Rhaegar winning at the Trident might have made the difference between life and death for her as well. And Daemon being charismatic only made him a better figurehead. The main reason he had people flocking to him wasn't his charm, it was what he could give them. Jon wouldn't be any different, although disadvantaged in the charm departent, perhaps. Anyway, it doesn't mean he couldn't try and make great trouble for Aegon. Stannis lacks charm - and what of it? There was still war between him and Renly, although he had far less resources.

I've noticed that you constantly keep saying that Elia would be "fine" with Lyanna and Jon, meaning that she'd accept the shame and danger Rhaegar deposited in her lap because she'd have no other choice. What kind of "fine" this is? Having no choice isn't the same as being "fine". Not trying to kill someone isn't the same as "fine with them". It just means you're powerless. And that would be doubly true for Elia, unless she was a prophecy nut and wholeheartedly believed that Lyanna would give birth to only one child and it would be a boy, and kept believing it even after the baby turned out to be a boy who would be a threat to her own son. Why would Elia be fine with a "spare" and the spare's mother when she could reasonably expect that they'd try to supplant or kill Aegon or be used to that purpose by others? And now it's "just like Naerys"? Naerys was the long-suffering wife of Aegon. She wasn't in position to be fine or not about anything. No one asked her how she felt. We certainly don't know that she was "fine" with being humiliated and having Aegon's bastards thrown in her face. If her son's reaction to Bittersteel and his mother is something to go by, she wasn't fine with Aegon's illegitimate offspring. Missy was clearly the exception but that was due to her personality and presumably due to the fact that she didn't have enough standing to pose a threat to Naerys and her children. When Barbra's father sought to elevate his daughter to queenship, Daeron and the ever dutiful Dragonknight who later died for Aegon thought this was too much. Daeron most certainly wasn't fine with his father making children on a woman who sought to be queen, even after the expected death of his own mother, at a time the rumours about Naerys and Aemon hadn't even started and his own position should have been secured.

Nothing in the Starn/Northernmen history showed any inclination to involve themselves with anything going on in the South before Rickard chose to take interest either. And the North isn't even needed for Jon to press a claim. Daemon Blackfyre didn't have any major region behind him when he tried to steal the Iron Throne from Daemon. Even if it wasn't Jon and Aegon, it would have been a descendant of Jon for certain. That's just what happens in this world. Blackfyres are the greatest example. Five generations of wars because of a king who thought crowning his mistress was such a great thing. Who was handsome and a good warrior in his youth. Who even had a warrior maiden (whom he didn't love, apparently, interesting enough.) The coincidences are just too many.

I doubt Rhaegar's win would have been better for the realm. Instead, the succession war would be almost guaranteed again, this time between Dorne and the North. We already have the fight between brothers (Stannis and Renly, Daeron and Daemon). It would only change the premise of the books while taking away from its richness (Daenerys and the Dothraki, the Lannister influence.) Not better for the realm, not better for the story, as far as I'm concerned.