[Spoilers] The Princess and the Queen, complete spoilers discussion

[Barty]

Perhaps, but look at it this way. Larys took not only a child out of KL, but also the rival King. And so, the war continued for about a year.

Varys took only a child out of KL, and made it look as if the child in question had died. The war ended.

I'm not saying it was impossible for Varys to take Elia and Rhaenys out of KL. Of course it was possible. If Varys can lead Tyrion through a secret hallway, he could also have lead Elia and Rhaenys through it. You'll never hear me say that it couldn't be done.

But Varys' actions did not prevent the war from ending. Had he stolen Elia, Rhaenys and Aegon out of KL without leaving a substitute for them in the capitol, the war would have continued. People would know the three to have still been alive. Where would he hide then? Even if he could get Aegon out of sight, Robert would still have known the child to be alive, and there would never be a chance for Varys to train the child as well as he has been trained now.

There was no need for Elia to die, she was supposed to be safe, although she might have been made a hostage. Rhaenys was a tricky one. I don't know Varys' reasoning for this. Perhaps we'll hear it in WoW.

Larys took all two (three?) the royals out of KL, but he also left a few behind. Helaena was just as much a Targaryen as Aegon II, yet she wasn't taken along. Aegon was the monarch (just as Aegon VI is) and so he had to be taken along, and Jaehaera would have made an easy marriage alliance for someone whose loyalty might fade a bit, to bring said family back to Aegon's cause. Maelor was Aegon's heir, so he had to come along.

And don't forget. The plan to have Aegon VI bond with a dragon - if that is the plan at all, since it is never mentioned, and people are assuming this only because it would make sense - is a recent one. Dany was supposed to have died amongst the Dothraki. Her eggs weren't supposed to hatch. Only when Viserys died, Dany lived, and the dragon eggs hatched and produced three healthy dragons, did Varys and Illyrio saw fit to alter their plan.That's about a year before Aegon VI starts to invade Westeros.

Their original plan did not involve actual dragons.

Nope. At the time of the fall of KL Viserys was alive and well, so was Rhaella Targaryen who was about to give birth to another Targaryen. All of this was well known yet the war ended. How would a baby Aegon and Rhaenys change this??

[Alayne's Shadow.]

You and me both. If ever there was strong argument against this batshit clan of egotistical backstabbers, this was it. Neither faction was admirable. By the end I just wanted them to kill each other and be done with it. And yes, they both would have been terrible in the long run. Mr. Petulant and Impatient on the one hand, Ms. Vindictive and Paranoid on the other. Shit, who does that sound like ...

If Aegon had not tried to usurp Rhaenyra's throne, she'd be a very competent Queen... Just saying.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

How was Rhaenyra paranoid and "mad". Yes she was overprotective and she may had exaggerated about keeping her children alive but is this really something that is paranoid and mad? Who wouldn't do that?

As for the Blood and Cheese incident.Yes the death of a child is a bad thing but I don't think that anything else could happen. If someone had killed my child, Blood&Cheese is the least I would have done.

If Aegon had not tried to usurp Rhaenyra's throne, she'd be a very competent Queen... Just saying.

Agree. Hellicent is the one who f*cked everything up because her ambition was to be King's mother...

[Anath]

If Aegon had not tried to usurp Rhaenyra's throne, she'd be a very competent Queen... Just saying.

That's why you don't mess up with succession, unless the heir is clearly incompetent. Because you might bite off more than you could chew and you can create a mess that the whole realm will bleed to clean up. People are driven to extemes in stressful circumstances and when there is a whole realm involved, you want as less stress as possible. Boredom is a good thing and in fact, Rhaenyra was quite boring in the beginning - not stupid and inactive but a normal decent woman who wouldn't pull a Daeron the Young Dragon.

After being usurped, Rhaenyra and her side had no choice but act. Aegon and Hellicent had this choice, yet they decided to take action.

While neither side was "good", there was a side that was initially wronged and threatened and the monstrosities were a result of that, not something this side invoked because it wanted to get all high and mighty.

[Barty]

If Aegon had not tried to usurp Rhaenyra's throne, she'd be a very competent Queen... Just saying.

What makes you say that?? Its clear she never handled betrayal and loss well. Had she become Queen she probably would have had to deal with both.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

What makes you say that?? Its clear she never handled betrayal and loss well. Had she become Queen she probably would have had to deal with both.

Loss? What loss? You mean her childrens loss?

As fot betrayal. There are many spikes in KL.

[Iona]

Holy sheepshift. Finished reading tPatQ last night, slept on it and browsed through this thread today. I have to say the story was a heavy read, both literally and emotionally. For me, it was a nightmare - having practically no relatives myself, I'm useless when it comes to family trees and such. I just can't keep up with all the names and family ties, and if that wasn't bad enough, having one dragon after another drop dead and people dying by the hundreds was like having someone slap you on the face repeatedly - with a rotten fish.

I could have lived with everything else that happened, but why, OH WHY, did Grey Ghost need to die?!?! I loved him the second he was introduced, and for the first time ever I had one of those moments where I felt like I have to stop reading for a while when he died. :crying:

[ed Lannister]

I may have to wait around three weeks before I get my copy and I don't want to wait so long so I hope you won't mind if I join in with some questions. :) I know about the spoilers but I'm too eager to care.

Does this mean that House Lannister can officially be named into Westeros' punching bag and loser among the Lords Paramount? Because as it is this would indicate that House Lannister is the largest military joke in Westeros with exactly 1 military success across three centuries, and even that one can be debated as Victarion's line regarding Dagon Greyjoy indicate that the Ironmen were not brought to heel until the Targaryens decided to take action. In contrast to a long and sorrowful series of defeats with the sole exception of Tywin who managed to win something.

i'd count the lannister host that marching towards harrenhal to bolster the green in the riverlands(Aemond and cole)to be brave and valiant even though in the shores of the gods eye they were shattered , they did exact a very grevious toll on the victory for the blacks in that battle. despite the numerical superiority of the black froces that had them trapped on three fronts.

i think it shows it's forces had a lot of discipline and character within their structure as none of the westermen defected even when they knew their fate was sealed. something similar to the situation when jaime lost in whispering wood by trying to fight rather than flee.

[ed Lannister]

I may have to wait around three weeks before I get my copy and I don't want to wait so long so I hope you won't mind if I join in with some questions. :) I know about the spoilers but I'm too eager to care.

Does this mean that House Lannister can officially be named into Westeros' punching bag and loser among the Lords Paramount? Because as it is this would indicate that House Lannister is the largest military joke in Westeros with exactly 1 military success across three centuries, and even that one can be debated as Victarion's line regarding Dagon Greyjoy indicate that the Ironmen were not brought to heel until the Targaryens decided to take action. In contrast to a long and sorrowful series of defeats with the sole exception of Tywin who managed to win something.

i'd count the lannister host that marching towards harrenhal to bolster the green in the riverlands(Aemond and cole)to be brave and valiant even though in the shores of the gods eye they were shattered , they did exact a very grevious toll on the victory for the blacks in that battle. despite the numerical superiority of the black froces that had them trapped on three fronts.

i think it shows it's forces had a lot of discipline and character within their structure as none of the westermen defected even when they knew their fate was sealed. something similar to the situation when jaime lost in whispering wood by trying to fight rather than flee.

[Anath]

What makes you say that?? Its clear she never handled betrayal and loss well. Had she become Queen she probably would have had to deal with both.

How is it clear? She didn't handle her children's losses - slightly different than the random loss you're throwing in here - and betrayals piled on her in a very short period of time.

She might have not been a great queen but she would have been a peaceful one. She was willing to listen to advice and she didn't kill people left and right. Aegon's very reign began with murder - one that his mother and Otto allowed and the text strongly implied that they used it to stifle any opposition. I suppose you could say, And what? The dead man was an old one, he was opposition and so on. I don't buy it. He was a long-time servant of the realm and his only fault was honouring his vow. They could have imprisoned him. They killed him instead.

Without Alicent's kind and competent help it's very unlikely that Rhaenyra would have suffered her children's losses in such a short period. And well, Alicent suffered her children's losses admirably, one can say. I find her terrifying. She was practically a mother to... Aegon's claim.

Rhaenyra would have been a decent queen. Aegon who you admire so much started as a vile brat, cruel and vindictive, doing no effective ruling but howling for revenge and deaths at every word arguing that he was not the sun and stars of the world. Had his rule been left unchallenged, it would have been a bloody tyrrany. They were just different tempers. And while Alicent was somewhat competent, to me her attitude to her children paints her as subhuman.

[Barty]

Loss? What loss? You mean her childrens loss?

As fot betrayal. There are many spikes in KL.

Children's loss cant be counted out. Aemond certainly was hungry for vengeance for his eye and he controlled the largest dragon in the Kingdom.

Again this is not the point - she was tested(very heavily,yes) and she failed. The burdens of leadership are not light. It is clear she has the ability to become mad in her - Not a trait of a good Queen.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

Children's loss cant be counted out. Aemond certainly was hungry for vengeance for his eye and he controlled the largest dragon in the Kingdom.

Again this is not the point - she was tested(very heavily,yes) and she failed. The burdens of leadership are not light. It is clear she has the ability to become mad in her - Not a trait of a good Queen.

You keep saying that she was mad where do you based it on?

And between an emotional Queen who love her children more than anything and a Puppet King who insults his King's and his father's will and memory because his mommy want to be King's mother I know who I would choose without hesitation.

[Anath]

Children's loss cant be counted out. Aemond certainly was hungry for vengeance for his eye and he controlled the largest dragon in the Kingdom.

Again this is not the point - she was tested(very heavily,yes) and she failed. The burdens of leadership are not light. It is clear she has the ability to become mad in her - Not a trait of a good Queen.

Since the point Alayne's Shadow was making was about Rhaenyra taking the throne under normal circumstances, I can't see how arguing about her actions after all she had been through makes sense.

Many people go through stressful periods of their life. Many of them recover. Rhaenyra just had the bad luck of being in charge through that time.

[Barty]

You keep saying that she was mad where do you based it on?

And between an emotional Queen who love her children more than anything and a Puppet King who insults his King's and his father's will and memory because his mommy want to be King's mother I know who I would choose without hesitation.

I draw the parallel between her and Aerys. Both start off well loved then they both suffer betrayal and become paranoid. Then they both listen to crappy advice and destroy their own rule.

Also Aegon had to be forced to take the throne and grew a lot more mature by the end of the Dance. He started off badly and ended up well(or better than Rhaneyra) while Rhaenyra started off well but ended up near crazy.

Neither would make a great(or even good) King/Queen but between the two I'd chose Aegon.

[Lord Varys]

On Rhaenyra's personality:

She is not really cracked, nor overly paranoid. Especially since we cannot really get to the core of her personality. Gyldayn's stupid line about the 'mystery of the female psyche' - when he describes Rhaenyra's state of mind after Jace's death - is the expected biased opinion of a scholar in a society like Westeros. It does not really explain anything.

Rhaenyra comes off as somewhat indecisive and afraid but this can be easily explained:

1. She is no warrior and has apparently never ridden into battle on dragonback or commanded troops in the name of her father.

2. Her stillbirth left her physically and psychically hurt. Luke's loss hits her harder afterwards, especially if we assume that she was in some sort of post-natal-depression. Her father had died as well, by the way. Alicent's hope that 'the whore may die in childbirth' could indicate that Viserys was poisoned. Daemon's and Rhaenyra's absence from KL is way too convenient if you ask me. Rhaenyra really seems to have loved her father - the love he once felt for Alicent is the reason why she lets her live.

3. Fifteen-year-old Jace seems to be a favorite of Gyldayn's. But then compare the way he is portrayed to the picture Gyldayn paints of Daeron the Daring. Jace 'is so glib of tongue' to convince the North, the Sisters, and the Vale to declare for Rhaenyra. He is the one who makes battle plans to take KL. He reunites Rhaenyra and Corlys after Rhaenys's death. I'm inclined to believe that Gyldayn may downplay Rhaenyra's role so that he can make look Jace better.

Rhaenyra would have made a good queen in peace time, and she may have actually won this war had she not gone to Dragonstone. Her erratic and problematic decision in the end may have been caused more by the people surrounding her than by herself. Apparently her whole court besides Corlys demanded the arrest of the bastard dragonriders. She could either give into them or risk alienating the leaders of the factions who were the backbone of her rule in KL (the Manderly Northmen, the Goldcloaks under Ser Luthor).

On the dragons:

One important nobody seems to have mentioned yet. No wild dragons apparently feeds on humans. That should add more fuel to the theory that Drogon did not kill that child in the beginning of ADwD.

On Larys Strong:

He cannot survive this war. I very much doubt that House Strong will survive this war, either. Thinking about him and Varys it may be that they share a common modus operandi. What if Larys was Daemon's man on the Small Council? By arranging Blood and Cheese while spiriting away Aegon and his children he ensured that the war would both escalate and continue. I expected him to leave KL with Aegon but he is still missing I'd not be surprised if he hid in the very place which becomes Varys's center of operations later on (whatever is down that well Arya saw in AGoT).

[Anath]

You keep saying that she was mad where do you based it on?

And between an emotional Queen who love her children more than anything and a Puppet King who insults his King's and his father's will and memory because his mommy want to be King's mother I know who I would choose without hesitation.

Don't forget that the puppet king's idea of dealing with suggestions other than "kill them all 'cause you are the king!" was "throw the speaker into a black cell with his black friends!" A great king, indeed. When everyone agrees about just every word coming out of his mouth. When not... well, there are plenty of black cells.

Had Rhaenyra left the usurpation unchallenged, not only she and hers would die but Westeros would have a tyrant on the throne. The only way Aegon could have turned out a better man was to be challenged.

I refuse to give him all this credit for not drinking the milk of poppy. Sure, it's a good thing but not so great. He didn't become a better man - he kept feeding people to his dragon. And not killing Aegon and Baela? Please. Of course that shows some growing up but Rhaenyra was that grown up from the very beginning. She didn't kill Alicent either. Or Helaena. So, we give Aegon credit for getting over this bloodthirsty impulses but well, Rhaenyra never had them, so he's all great and she's all mad?

[By the Old Gods Not theNew]

snip

After George gave him the complete Tararyen family tree, Ran said that the wife of Viserys II was not a Targaryen.

Oh, damn. Thanks for the heads up.

[Anath]

I draw the parallel between her and Aerys. Both start off well loved then they both suffer betrayal and become paranoid. Then they both listen to crappy advice and destroy their own rule.

Also Aegon had to be forced to take the throne and grew a lot more mature by the end of the Dance. He started off badly and ended up well(or better than Rhaneyra) while Rhaenyra started off well but ended up near crazy.

Neither would make a great(or even good) King/Queen but between the two I'd chose Aegon.

That's your insinuation. Why stop with Rhaenyra? There are parallels between Aerys and Aegon, too. Like, being obsessed with destroying your enemies in a cruel way. Not suffering any opposition.

You would choose Aegon although the only way he could become tolerable was through the Dance that destroyed the realm, over Rhaenyra who only became intolerable because of the Dance? I am not speaking about the end of the Dance. I am talking about the time when it was possible to have no Dance at all. Would you still choose Aegon because you know how it all ended? For "the greater good?" Don't forget, without the war he would have stayed just as he was in the beginning.

[Barty]

That's your insinuation. Why stop with Rhaenyra? There are parallels between Aerys and Aegon, too. Like, being obsessed with destroying your enemies in a cruel way. Not suffering any opposition.

You would choose Aegon although the only way he could become tolerable was through the Dance that destroyed the realm, over Rhaenyra who only became intolerable because of the Dance? I am not speaking about the end of the Dance. I am talking about the time when it was possible to have no Dance at all. Would you still choose Aegon because you know how it all ended? For "the greater good?"

If it is guaranteed that Rhaenyra wont become intolerable due to some other event during her rule, then sure I would chose her. If the defiance of duskendale had never taken place would you have supported Aerys(over a safer choice like Rhaegar), not knowing whether some other event might make him go crazy?

[Lord Varys]

I don't see Aegon becoming better in the end. Perhaps somewhat more in control of himself. He should have realized that things don't just happen because he commands them. That was his take on kingship back before his injuries when he tore the chain of office from Ser Otto.

That lesson he may have learned, but my take on him sees him to go in completely different direction. He is always in great pain, and he is a vindictive asshole. His short restoration may mark the bloodiest time of his reign. I could even see him murdering his mother. He would blame her for his injuries and pain, wouldn't he? Even if we assume that he was a very willing pawn in her machinations from the beginning. His reluctance to usurp the throne in beginning is complete nonsense.