Do you view Daenerys as a dishonorable character?

[Hajk]

Jim Jones style?

Considering he STILL can't find the contradiction in his previous post, I'd say he has other problems.

ETA:LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL

Considering you refuse to point it out, I'll just suppose you can't and refuse to back track. It is quite difficult to find definitive contradictions in natural langauge anyhow. You probably know this and realize that I'll be able to provide an interpretation of whatever you're alleging which will not leave it contradictory.

Let's open it up, because you clearly think I am too stupid:

Here is my post:

Wow. I stand corrected. Clearly your position is right (whatever it is).

Can anyone on this thread tell me where I formally contradicted myself?

This would require showing that I simultaneously asserted

P and Not-P

for some proposition P.

I will be okay with a proof that satisfies the conventions of first order predicate calculus.

You have claimed that my last two sentences are contradictory. Here is what they say:

P1: I stand corrected

P2: Clearly your position is right (whatever it is).

Given that The Imperator never said anything substantial, and these were said sarcastically, there is little hope of fixing a semantic interpretation so uncontroversial that a contradiction will be necessary.

Can anyone tell me where the contradiction lies? If not then I'm calling The Imperator on his BS.

I have taken far too much mathematics and logic to be easily fazed by some smug and unsubstantiated accusation of contradiction.

ETA:LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL

[The Imperator]

ETA:LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL

Considering you refuse to point it out, I'll just suppose you can't and refuse to back track. It is quite difficult to find definitive contradictions in natural langauge anyhow. You probably know this and realize that I'll be able to provide an interpretation of whatever you're alleging which will not leave it contradictory.

Let's open it up, because you clearly think I am too stupid:

Here is my post:

Can anyone on this thread tell me where I formally contradicted myself?

This would require showing that I simultaneously asserted

P and Not-P

for some proposition P.

I will be okay with a proof that satisfies the conventions of first order predicate calculus.

You have claimed that my last sentences are contradictory. Here is what they say:

P1: I stand corrected

P2: Clearly your position is right (whatever it is).

Given that The Imperator never said anything substantial, and these were said sarcastically, there is little hope of fixing a semantic interpretation so uncontroversial that a contradiction will be necessary.

Can anyone tell me where the contradiction lies? If not then I'm calling The Imperator on his BS.

I have taken far too much mathematics and logic to be easily fazed by some smug and unsubstantiated accusation of contradiction.

ETA:LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL

lmao!!!!

You still haven't spotted the contradiction and you seem willing to derail the thread as a result.

Suggestion to everyone: don't get dragged into this topic. Keep the thread on-topic.

[Hajk]

lmao!!!!

You still haven't spotted the contradiction and you seem willing to derail the thread as a result.

LOL That's because there isn't any. Thanks for the trolling but I'm not falling for it any more.

[MoIaF]

ETA:LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL

Considering you refuse to point it out, I'll just suppose you can't and refuse to back track. It is quite difficult to find definitive contradictions in natural langauge anyhow. You probably know this and realize that I'll be able to provide an interpretation of whatever you're alleging which will not leave it contradictory.

Let's open it up, because you clearly think I am too stupid:

Here is my post:

Can anyone on this thread tell me where I formally contradicted myself?

This would require showing that I simultaneously asserted

P and Not-P

for some proposition P.

I will be okay with a proof that satisfies the conventions of first order predicate calculus.

You have claimed that my last two sentences are contradictory. Here is what they say:

P1: I stand corrected

P2: Clearly your position is right (whatever it is).

Given that The Imperator never said anything substantial, and these were said sarcastically, there is little hope of fixing a semantic interpretation so uncontroversial that a contradiction will be necessary.

Can anyone tell me where the contradiction lies? If not then I'm calling The Imperator on his BS.

I have taken far too much mathematics and logic to be easily fazed by some smug and unsubstantiated accusation of contradiction.

ETA:LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL

I think he think you were saying he was right (about you drinking the cool aid) when in fact you were being sarcastic.

[Winter's Knight]

Never seen someone quote this in regards to the 163, not even from a Dany fan.

Yay me?

:dunno:

[Florina Laufeyson]

See this is what I mean when I say I have a hard time explaining this.

By "societal pride", I meant how one appears to the society at large. Ned for instance insists on not following Renly's plan because it is not honourable to "drag frightened children from their beds". This is not a question of morality.

Hoster forced an abortion on Lysa and married her to Jon A to preserve her honour and Jon A resented her because his honour was touched at wedding a non-virgin. Robb married Jeyne for honour too, yet none of these were the moral choices.

Also, "heh" on my view being outdated-it's the view I grew up with. People are still murdered for honour in my country.

Renly's plan was a good idea? har.

I think you are still missing what im saying. Cuz thats really not how i view honor at all. To me, that is status quo. So when i view a character in this story as honorable, its quite different from what you are viewing it as. I dunno about Robb. Seemed he also quite smitten with Jeyne despite his reasoning. He was spewing honor around in order to be validated in his choice. Part of it was so that Jeyne wouldnt be seen as pariah or a "harlot" by peers and society and part was him trying to adhere to the "rules". But theres that other part to consider...feelings.

One could argue that in Westeros, it is not moral to not be a virgin before wedding in the noble class. We know thats rubbish, but you get the idea. Most of Ned's honor was about morality more than status quo. The North is basically Scandinavian inspired. (The Ironborn were inspired by the more extreme side of that, btw.) In the Old Norse way, one couldnt break an oath without facing the wroth of the gods. So something like deserting was seen as rather gnarly. But one could make a plea to the gods in order to break an oath that was dishonorable or morally questionable. (Say like, if a dude was really against the idea of his raiding party to kill women and children or take them as spoils. Or the harsh treatment of thralls.) Ned is pretty much Jarl or chieftain in his area, if you think of the old Scandinavian parallel. So he executes the deserter of the Night's Watch as is duty. He speaks with his gods afterwards. All very...Scandi. Oath breaking was Serious Business in the real world at one point. Its Serious Business in Westeros.

With Jaime, he could have been vindicated for making an honorable choice to dispatch Aerys had he told about the wildfire plot. (He held back to Ned out of spite.) Theres a very blurred line between honor and morality. Its not so black and white. We the reader, are supposed to see Jaime's actions in Aerys' direction as honorable, despite his oath breaking. You see what im trying to say now? As for the bolded, i doubt theres any honor in what you speak of. Just status quo. Look, i get what youre saying but we have a very different idea on what constitutes as honor. I for one, do not see it as a negative for the reasons i stated.

[Hajk]

We don't know how the selection happened, but we know Dany knew who they were, she sent their remains to their wives.

Are you seriously suggesting the Great Masters dressed up slaves as themselves or something?

Had something like that happened, it seems unlikely that the slaves would not have informed Dany of it then or later.

[OldGimletEye]

Drogo wanted to pillage lands east(around the jade sea specifically ))

If you were one of those Lhazareen, you can totally blame what happened to you partially because of Dany.

COUNT I

Daenerys Targaryen did knowingly conspire with one Khal Drogo to commit a war of agression against the people of Lhazarene.

COUNT II

Daenerys Targaryen did knowingly solicit one Khal Drogo to commit a war of agression against the people of Lhazarene.

COUNT III

Daenerys Targaryen did knowingly conspire with one Khal Drogo to sell the people of Lhazarene into slavery.

COUNT IV

Daenerys Targaryen did knowlingly solicit one Khal Drogo to sell the people of Lhazarene into slavery.

COUNT V

Daenerys Targaryen did with gross negligence solicit one Khal Drogo in the rape of Lhazarene civilians.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

Dany is too fickle and passionate to be considered honourable I think. She might start of with the idea of doing the honourable thing, but once her inner dragon gets channeled (or she sees someone with bright blue eyes ) there's no real telling what she's capable of I think, honourable or not.

At least the feeling isn't mutual. I know exactly what I'm capable of :cool4:

[Winter's Knight]

Renly's plan was a good idea? har.

I think you are still missing what im saying. Cuz thats really not how i view honor at all. To me, that is status quo. So when i view a character in this story as honorable, its quite different from what you are viewing it as. I dunno about Robb. Seemed he also quite smitten with Jeyne despite his reasoning. He was spewing honor around in order to be validated in his choice. Part of it was so that Jeyne wouldnt be seen as pariah or a "harlot" by peers and society and part was him trying to adhere to the "rules". But theres that other part to consider...feelings.

One could argue that in Westeros, it is not moral to not be a virgin before wedding in the noble class. We know thats rubbish, but you get the idea. Most of Ned's honor was about morality more than status quo. The North is basically Scandinavian inspired. (The Ironborn were inspired by the more extreme side of that, btw.) In the Old Norse way, one couldnt break an oath without facing the wroth of the gods. So something like deserting was seen as rather gnarly. But one could make a plea to the gods in order to break an oath that was dishonorable or morally questionable. (Say like, if a dude was really against the idea of his raiding party to kill women and children or take them as spoils. Or the harsh treatment of thralls.) Ned is pretty much Jarl or chieftain in his area, if you think of the old Scandinavian parallel. So he executes the deserter of the Night's Watch as is duty. He speaks with his gods afterwards. All very...Scandi. Oath breaking was Serious Business in the real world at one point. Its Serious Business in Westeros.

With Jaime, he could have been vindicated for making an honorable choice to dispatch Aerys had he told about the wildfire plot. (He held back to Ned out of spite.) Theres a very blurred line between honor and morality. Its not so black and white. We the reader, are supposed to see Jaime's actions in Aerys' direction as honorable, despite his oath breaking. You see what im trying to say now? As for the bolded, i doubt theres any honor in what you speak of. Just status quo. Look, i get what youre saying but we have a very different idea on what constitutes as honor. I for one, do not see it as a negative for the reasons i stated.

I am not..debating the definition, just pointing why "honour" carries a negative connotation to me. I think it'd be a good idea for a thread actually, talking about how the words mean vastly different things to people from different parts of the world.

[Zebra of KotOR]

Drogo wanted to pillage lands east(around the jade sea specifically ))

If you were one of those Lhazareen, you can totally blame what happened to you partially because of Dany.

The other side of that coin is that the people around the jade sea o Dany for saving them.

First time I tried to quote someone.

[Florina Laufeyson]

I am not..debating the definition, just pointing why "honour" carries a negative connotation to me. I think it'd be a good idea for a thread actually, talking about how the words mean vastly different things to people from different parts of the world.

I get ya. But you arent really alone in that viewpoint. For some, honor has religious or spiritual basis. Ned is actually an interesting fictional example of such.

[TheMysteriousOne]

COUNT V

Daenerys Targaryen did with gross negligence solicit one Khal Drogo in the rape of Lhazarene civilians.

Really? :rolleyes:

[Winter's Knight]

Really? :rolleyes:

I think that whole post is a joke intentional or not..

[SerBarristantheOld]

Really? :rolleyes:

Dany gets no blame even though she encouraged Drogo to go west? The Dothraki pillage yes. But from say MMD point of view she can totally blame Dany for encouraging him to go west. The assassination attempt is one thing bit she still tried to get him to do it beforehand and if she didn't...who knows. Maybe Drogo wouldn't have attacked the Lharazeen. Maybe he just gets massacred out there in the east.

[SerBarristantheOld]

Really? :rolleyes:

Dany gets no blame even though she encouraged Drogo to go west? The Dothraki pillage yes. But from say MMD point of view she can totally blame Dany for encouraging him to go west. The assassination attempt is one thing bit she still tried to get him to do it beforehand and if she didn't...who knows. Maybe Drogo wouldn't have attacked the Lharazeen. Maybe he just gets massacred out there in the east.

[SerBarristantheOld]

Nvm double post

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Even if Dany is fighting the Others? Is your hatred for her so strong you'd actually root for mankind's possible annihilation, if it means not rooting for Dany?

Until you can demonstrate that Dany will actually fight the Others, I'm going to consider this a strawman. I see the Others and dragons as two equal sides of the same shitty coin. I tend to see someone fighting both the Others and Dany, not Dany fighting the Others. Fuck all in this story has ever suggested to me, "Dragons good, Others bad." They're both awful and both must be destroyed.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

OK, now I have to ask.

The people rooting for Dany to take over Westeros ... What is it that you expect her to do that is actually superior to the status quo? Literally all she has done in Slaver's Bay is tell former slaves that they're free now. But she hasn't followed up on that with any sort of economic development or promise of economic security or stability. The Westerosi aren't slaves. So her talk-is-cheap abolition decree won't matter for shit in Westeros. So why should I or anyone else be rooting for her to retake the country? And please don't say it's because she has a vagina.

What is it about literally anything she has done as an administrator that shows she has the competency or ability to rule and improve Westeros?

[SerBarristantheOld]

I want Dany to win because she is the most beautiful woman in the world...