Stannis isn't a religious zealot

[Lady Sharya]

Robert never much loved Stannis, and would most likely have seen it as an attempt move himself further in line of succession. This would also have made Ned's evidence worthless since Robert would believe, that he's in league with Stannis. Plus Littlefinger, Cersei and Varys all have spies all over King's Landing so they would have probably known, that Stannis is going to tell Robert, and none of three want Stannis on the Throne.

I see this rationale pretty regularly for Stannis doing nothing when Jon Arryn died and ask myself the same 2 questions:

1. Where is the evidence Robert did not trust Stannis? He was on his small council as Master of Ships.

2. If this is true, then why? Reputations, affections, esteems ect. are not formed in a vacume. If you are going to justify Stannis' behavior using this rationale then explain how Robert would get to a point where he didn't trust his own brother. What does that say about Stannis?

And to suggest that Robert would think Ned is in league with Stannis on some conspiracy is simply grasping at wild straws. I won't even ask for evidence on this rationale because there isn't even a hint it could be true.

[Nictarion]

I see this rationale pretty regularly for Stannis doing nothing when Jon Arryn died and ask myself the same 2 questions:

1. Where is the evidence Robert did not trust Stannis? He was on his small council as Master of Ships.

2. If this is true, then why? Reputations, affections, esteems ect. are not formed in a vacume. If you are going to justify Stannis' behavior using this rationale then explain how Robert would get to a point where he didn't trust his own brother. What does that say about Stannis?

And to suggest that Robert would think Ned is in league with Stannis on some conspiracy is simply grasping at wild straws. I won't even ask for evidence on this rationale because there isn't even a hint it could be true.

Well said.

[AintNoStark]

3. What other standards should we use? We don't live in a medieval time period, nor were these books written for one.

Oh my God.

We don't live in a medeival time period, the characters we are discussing do.

Your arguments are an utter joke. I have rarely seen posts so ignorant of facts and the very nature of Westeros.

[Nictarion]

Oh my God.

We don't live in a medeival time period, the characters we are discussing do.

Your arguments are an utter joke. I have rarely seen posts so ignorant of facts and the very nature of Westeros.

So we should be ok with things just because they are ok in that time period? You know, prostitutes being punished by having their vaginas scrubbed with lye, girls being married off at 13, torture, crucifixion, slavery, burning people, women being treated like 2nd class citizens, bastards and dwarfs being treated like scum.

Why the hell should we just think, well it was accepted back then so we shouldn't judge them. Ridiculous.

[Guard of the Rainking]

I see this rationale pretty regularly for Stannis doing nothing when Jon Arryn died and ask myself the same 2 questions:

1. Where is the evidence Robert did not trust Stannis? He was on his small council as Master of Ships.

2. If this is true, then why? Reputations, affections, esteems ect. are not formed in a vacume. If you are going to justify Stannis' behavior using this rationale then explain how Robert would get to a point where he didn't trust his own brother. What does that say about Stannis?

And to suggest that Robert would think Ned is in league with Stannis on some conspiracy is simply grasping at wild straws. I won't even ask for evidence on this rationale because there isn't even a hint it could be true.

He didn't make Stannis the hand of the king or the warden of the east, he didn't give him Storm's End and he blames him for letting the Targaryens go. In Robert's point of view it would seem like his younger brother who he has threaded badly and has denied power is trying to gain more power.

And my main point is, that Stannis would have most likely been assasinated before he ever got to tell Robert. He would die for nothing leaving Shireen defenceless.

[Nictarion]

In Robert's point of view it would seem like his younger brother who he has threaded badly and has denied power

He wasn't treated badly, or denied power. He had a seat on Robert's small council, and was given Dragonstone, which was the royal seat of the crown prince for hundreds of years.

[Stan the Man Baratheon]

He wasn't treated badly, or denied power. He had a seat on Robert's small council, and was given Dragonstone, which was the royal seat of the crown prince for hundreds of years.

Cersei: And Stannis has always felt he was cheated of Storm's End. The ancestral seat of House Baratheon, his by rights... if you knew how many times he came to Robert singing that same dull song in that gloomy aggrieved tone he has. When Robert gave the place to Renly, Stannis clenched his jaw so tight I thought his teeth would shatter.

Tyrion: He took it as a slight.

Cersei: It was meant as a slight

[Lady Sharya]

Oh my God.

We don't live in a medeival time period, the characters we are discussing do.

Your arguments are an utter joke. I have rarely seen posts so ignorant of facts and the very nature of Westeros.

If you restrict all judgement of morals to 'in universe' then do so. There is no rightous precedence for the burning of Septs or Godswoods or men in Westros...unless you want to count First Men & Andals burning forests 10,000 & 5,000 years ago, respectively.

Nor is there a precedence for religious conformity upon the threat of being abandoned to certain death. It isn't simply happenstance that the only group of people Stannis has forced to convert to the Red God are those he had complete power over. What would he do as King?

He may not be be a zealot for R'hllor himself, but he grants authority/power to those who are...and they just happen to be those closest to him; his wife, her family & Mel. So, does it really matter he doesn't actually believe in the Religion he carries on his banners? At best, he is setting up potential internal civil conflict over religion...Something that isn't the norm in Westros.

[Guard of the Rainking]

He wasn't treated badly, or denied power. He had a seat on Robert's small council, and was given Dragonstone, which was the royal seat of the crown prince for hundreds of years.

He was denied Storm's End which has been the seat of house Baratheon for hundreds of years and he wasn't given the titles I mentioned in my previous post. He wasn't treated badly. How about bedding Stannis' wife's cousin in Stannis' own wedding bed or not even thanking him for holding Storm's End?

[Lady Sharya]

Cersei: And Stannis has always felt he was cheated of Storm's End. The ancestral seat of House Baratheon, his by rights... if you knew how many times he came to Robert singing that same dull song in that gloomy aggrieved tone he has. When Robert gave the place to Renly, Stannis clenched his jaw so tight I thought his teeth would shatter.

Tyrion: He took it as a slight.Cersei: It was meant as a slight

This is what Stannis thought. Can we agree that what Stannis says with regard to his relationship with Robert just may be skewed by bitter resentment? Robert doesn't have a POV so we do not have any evidence he did not trust Stannis. Give me something...please. Give me a quote from ANY unbiased third party that Stannis was treated badly or not trusted by Robert.

And when you do. Explain why Stannis isn't held equally responsible for the 'bad blood' between he and his brother(s).

Edit: forgot my main point ha

[Stan the Man Baratheon]

This is what Stannis thought. Can we agree that what Stannis says with regard to his relationship with Robert just may be skewed by bitter resentment? Robert doesn't have a POV so we do not have any evidence he did not trust Stannis. Give me something...please. Give me a quote from ANY unbiased third party that Stannis was treated badly or not trusted by Robert.

The one i gave IS from a third party, Cersei.

ACoK, Tyrion VI (Chapter 26).

[Guard of the Rainking]

This is what Stannis thought. Can we agree that what Stannis says with regard to his relationship with Robert just may be skewed by bitter resentment? Robert doesn't have a POV so we do not have any evidence he did not trust Stannis. Give me something...please. Give me a quote from ANY unbiased third party that Stannis was treated badly or not trusted by Robert.

And when you do. Explain why Stannis isn't held equally responsible for the 'bad blood' between he and his brother(s).

Edit: forgot my main point ha

For one there is this:

"Yet we still must have a Warden of the East. If Robert Arryn will not do name one of your brothers. Stannis proved himself at the siege of Storm's End surely." He let the name hang there for a moment. The king frowned and said nothing. He looked uncomfortable.

[Lady Sharya]

The one i gave IS from a third party, Cersei.

ACoK, Tyrion VI (Chapter 26).

No, Cercei is not an unbiased or even reliable third party. Nothing she say to Tyrion can be trusted let alone her having any truthful insights WR to her husband.

Still, giving Dragonstone to Stannis and StormsEnd to Renley 14 years ago is hardly evidence that Robert would have mistrusted Stannis completely and/or punished him the way you have suggested.

Still, if he did, then why? Isn't it reasonable that's puts a question mark on Stannis' integrity?

[Stan the Man Baratheon]

No, Cercei is not an unbiased or even reliable third party. Nothing she say to Tyrion can be trusted let alone her having any truthful insights WR to her husband.

Still, giving Dragonstone to Stannis and StormsEnd to Renley 14 years ago is hardly evidence that Robert would have mistrusted Stannis completely and/or punished him the way you have suggested.

Still, if he did, then why? Isn't it reasonable that's puts a question mark on Stannis' integrity?

So first you ask for a third PoV and now you say that person in unbiased. Not really she was really elated in that chapter when she hears Stannis and Renly fighting. If in any moment i expect her to say the truth it will be that moment.

Not really. He did his duty to his brother. It is that simple. He had confrontations with Robert when they were in private.

[Nictarion]

Still, giving Dragonstone to Stannis and StormsEnd to Renley 14 years ago is hardly evidence that Robert would have mistrusted Stannis completely and/or punished him the way you have suggested.

Agreed. Quite the opposite actually. If I were Robert I would certainly want someone strong holding Dragonstone, which was a Targaryen stronghold for hundreds of years. If your a Targaryen supporter on Dragonstone, who would you fear more Stannis or Renly?

[Stan the Man Baratheon]

Agreed. Quite the opposite actually. If I were Robert I would certainly want someone strong holding Dragonstone, which was a Targaryen stronghold for hundreds of years. If your a Targaryen supporter on Dragonstone, who would you fear more Stannis or Renly?

Renly.

[El Guapo]

And Dany's campaign is to gain the Throne she believes (ridiculously) is her family's by right while Robb fights a war for revenge; the latter being an unofficial yet integral part of Stannis' war.

Why is it ridiculous?

[Melisandros Megas]

No, Cercei is not an unbiased or even reliable third party. Nothing she say to Tyrion can be trusted let alone her having any truthful insights WR to her husband.

Still, giving Dragonstone to Stannis and StormsEnd to Renley 14 years ago is hardly evidence that Robert would have mistrusted Stannis completely and/or punished him the way you have suggested.

Still, if he did, then why? Isn't it reasonable that's puts a question mark on Stannis' integrity?

King Bob being a paragon integrity himself.........Kettleblack?

[Nictarion]

Renly.

Whaaat? Why? Ffs, even when I say something positive about Stannis you disagree with me.

[Stan the Man Baratheon]

Whaaat? Why? Ffs, even when I say something positive about Stannis you disagree with me.

Damn it quick quoter. I just put in ComicSans Font.