Starspear

Anyone else thinks that ADWD goes too far with Ramsay Snow?

85 posts in this topic

I thought it was a little to much, but the actions fit Ramsey


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I keep seeing the word bestiality thrown around with Ramsay... why? I've never read anything from the books that states/heavily implies this -- I've read it only from 'fans' who assume this is the case... and then complain that 'GRRM went too far with bestiality' -- where is this coming from?



Afaik -- the people talking about it are such a small minority -- well, it doesn't seem plausible that it is book-based at all (or there'd be MUCH discussion about it).



So who, really, are the ones 'going too far' with it?


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The allusion is in one comment Jeyne makes in one of Theon's last chapters, however I didn't get the impression of Ramsay imposing such a brutal thing over poor Jeyne. I thought Jeyne referred to Theon as Ramsay's dog, and that is where the confusion starts. I may very well be wrong, but if it is not clear, I'd rather believe my interpretation at least.

As for the topic, Ramsay is the most evil character in the books. Joffrey is meant to be what happens when you give absolute power to a spoiled bully kid, but Ramsay is a psycho. I'd suscribe to the crackpot theory, as Roose wouldn't let him live otherwise.

I read it the same way you did… never even occurred to me to see it otherwise. This is my version of the story and I'm sticking to it!

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No, don't think the Ramsay stuff goes to far. It is perhaps not all pleasant reading, but Ramsay is not a pleasant guy!

Most of the characters in ASOIAF are in the grey area of good/evil, I like that we have someone who seems to be completely in the black zone, and (until proven otherwise) is not some evil ice monster collaborating with the Other, but a human! I also think it has a purpose in the story other than to make us gag, if nothing else it add fuel to the in-fighting between the northern lords.

Especially seen in comparison to all the other gross/ freaky stuff going on it these books, the Ramsay stuff really doesn't seem that bad twincest, pulling tongues out of little kids, crucifying slaves/slavers, whatever Qyburn is doing in the dungeons(?), etc.

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YES. I recently re-read aDwD and I absolutely hated everytime Ramsay appeared. He's such a ridiculous, one-dimensional and just over the top character that it just took me out of the story.



And Martin keeps hitting us over the head with all the subtlety of a sledgehammer. Yeah, he made Lady Hornwood eat her own fingers. Yeah, he hunts, rapes and flays innocent girls. Yeah, he says he'll flay Lady Dustin and make a pair of boots off her skin. Of course, he killed an innocent peasant just because he looked at him funny. Of course he flayed dozens of Ironborn. Of course he forces bestiality on Jeyne. Of course he abuses her and Theon. Of course he bit her breasts. Of course he made a cloak from the skin of the spearwives.



Just, enough Martin, I heard you the first time! He's evil, I believe you!



It comes a point that it's not even just violence for the sake of shock factor and instead gets so ridiculous and repetitive and over the top that it loses every emotional impact it might have and gets tiresome.


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I keep seeing the word bestiality thrown around with Ramsay... why? I've never read anything from the books that states/heavily implies this -- I've read it only from 'fans' who assume this is the case... and then complain that 'GRRM went too far with bestiality' -- where is this coming from?

Afaik -- the people talking about it are such a small minority -- well, it doesn't seem plausible that it is book-based at all (or there'd be MUCH discussion about it).

So who, really, are the ones 'going too far' with it?

It is book-based. Re-read ADWD.

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YES. I recently re-read aDwD and I absolutely hated everytime Ramsay appeared. He's such a ridiculous, one-dimensional and just over the top character that it just took me out of the story.

And Martin keeps hitting us over the head with all the subtlety of a sledgehammer. Yeah, he made Lady Hornwood eat her own fingers. Yeah, he hunts, rapes and flays innocent girls. Yeah, he says he'll flay Lady Dustin and make a pair of boots off her skin. Of course, he killed an innocent peasant just because he looked at him funny. Of course he flayed dozens of Ironborn. Of course he forces bestiality on Jeyne. Of course he abuses her and Theon. Of course he bit her breasts. Of course he made a cloak from the skin of the spearwives.

Just, enough Martin, I heard you the first time! He's evil, I believe you!

It comes a point that it's not even just violence for the sake of shock factor and instead gets so ridiculous and repetitive and over the top that it loses every emotional impact it might have and gets tiresome.

I got mad at Jon's stabbers because they stopped him from kicking Ramsay's ass.

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It is book-based. Re-read ADWD.

Yep

Jeyne pulled her wolfskins up to her chin. “No. This is some trick. It’s him, it’s my … my lord, my sweet lord, he sent you, this is just some test to make sure that I love him. I do, I do, I love him more than anything.” A tear ran down her cheek. “Tell him, you tell him. I’ll do what he wants … whatever he wants … with him or … or with the dog or … please … he doesn’t need to cut my feet off, I won’t try to run away, not ever, I’ll give him sons, I swear it, I swear it …”

This is what pisses me off. It's just overkill. Did we really need any additional reasons like this to hate Ramsay at this point? What's next, he eats baby back ribs taken from actual babies, dipped in blood, or he wipes his ass with the skin of his victims? It's just ridiculous

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Ramsay is one of the best Martin's creations in my eyes, so, needless to say, I definitely don't think the author went to far with him, nor that Ramsay is just meant to shock the readers.



Even if just a side character in Theon's arc, Ramsay would be welcomed. Thorn between Greyjoys and Starks, Theon struggled with an identity from the get-go, but not before he completely lost his identity in ADWD did Theon touched the bottom. For that, a monster like Ramsay was needed, especially because it was Theon himself that released the monster while occupying Winterfell in ACOK. If Ramsay was not as big a monster as he is, Theon's loss of humanity wouldn't be as believable, and the return of his humanity (awakened by Jeyne Pool) wouldn't be as effective.



However, I happen to think Ramsay's more important than just a side character in someone else's story arc. First, as noticed by another poster in another thread, he is the perfect opposite to Jon, just like Joff was to Robb. Both Jon and Ramsay are bastards, managing through life pretty much on their own, and arriving very far: Jon become LC, Ramsay becomes the heir to Dreadfort and The North. It's no wonder then, that they are to jump at each other throats at the end of ADWD. Their arcs could also be juxtaposing each other in symbolic aspect: Jon represents change, rooted in tradition (which he respects) but change nevertheless - he let the wildlings through the gates; Ramsay, on the other hand, represents degeneration. He's Roose write crueler, e.g. more inhuman. Not necessarily more immoral, because Ramsay probably doesn't have any idea that there is a thing called moral, while Roose definitely does. But, that Ramsay is a bigger menace to the world than his father is, that should be pretty obvious. Now, if one of purposes Ramsay serves in this story is to show how deep nay degeneration go (which, if you think about it, resonates very much in our world), then I wouldn't say he's over the top. Personal taste is a different matter, but I wouldn't say Ramsay nastiness is there just because.


Edited by Miodrag

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It is book-based. Re-read ADWD.

Rude is always your best option. Not answering or enlightening with quotes and whatnot. Cool.

@Jon of the (Evil) Dead --> I took the quote as part of Jeyne's breakdown... her desperation as it were... not as something Ramsay forced on her earlier. Hmm, never even knew people took it that way. I talked to ppl who've done more re-reads than I have (way too many lol) and they didn't take it that way either... guess to each his own interpretation. :)

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Excellent post!



Well, off course yeah, Ramsay is a badmotherf***&



sadistic, evil, depraved, monster....well he is a baddie after all.



Here is a guy who is evil and enjoys it. Unlike Tywin who is (was) an evil schemer but he had a power drive, a goal, an orientation. whereas Ramsay is evil for


the pleasure. The guy is fully out there being evil. Awesome!



I just wonder who will oppose him? who will beat him.


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Yeah, I kind of got he was an evil psychopath from the start, so I didn't appreciate Martin hitting me over the head with it every two lines. It's like subtlety took a day off when he was writing the Reek chapters, at least regarding Ramsey. For such an important villain he's definetely a weak creation, but of course opinions are subjective


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Rude is always your best option. Not answering or enlightening with quotes and whatnot. Cool.

@Jon of the (Evil) Dead --> I took the quote as part of Jeyne's breakdown... her desperation as it were... not as something Ramsay forced on her earlier. Hmm, never even knew people took it that way. I talked to ppl who've done more re-reads than I have (way too many lol) and they didn't take it that way either... guess to each his own interpretation. :)

Others answered. Not being rude, just clipped writing. Forums always give impression of rudeness.

You did initially blame 'fans' for the interpretation. I don't think it's so much subjective however. Trust me, your interpretation is more palatable, and I'd prefer. Unfortunately, it's transparent what actually takes/took place.

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As mentioned, it is book-based.


Edited by Starspear

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No point going back and forth.



The bestiality you refer to is not book-based, unless you personally interpret a desperate line said by Jeyne (quote below) to read bestiality -- which many of us don't, and never even considered. Again, I hear a very desperate young girl saying she will literally do anything to save herself from his anger... (like Viserys talking about the horses fking Dany).



Clearly, some people, like yourself, did indeed read it as bestiality, which is fine -- it's subjective.



But afaik, there is no other reference, no direct reference, to this at all in any book of the series -- if there is, just let me know which book/chapter, because it would not be the first time I issed something.



Quote: "Jeyne pulled her wolfskins up to her chin. “No. This is some trick. It’s him, it’s my … my lord, my sweet lord, he sent you, this is just some test to make sure that I love him. I do, I do, I love him more than anything.” A tear ran down her cheek. “Tell him, you tell him. I’ll do what he wants … whatever he wants … with him or … or with the dog or … please … he doesn’t need to cut my feet off, I won’t try to run away, not ever, I’ll give him sons, I swear it, I swear it …"

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Just to clarify, the thread refers to Ramsay Snow as a whole.



See Jon of the Evil dead's post:






Yeah, I kind of got he was an evil psychopath from the start, so I didn't appreciate Martin hitting me over the head with it every two lines. It's like subtlety took a day off when he was writing the Reek chapters, at least regarding Ramsey. For such an important villain he's definetely a weak creation, but of course opinions are subjective



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No point going back and forth.

See my above post #57. That is my position (in Jon of the Evil Dead's words).

In reference to your post #56, just to understand correctly, are you saying that Jeyne Poole volunteered herself to degrading abuse?

Edited by Starspear

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Just my two cents, but I don't think it's actually relevant whether it is something that he actually had her do or just something that he threatened her with, the point is not to show you what a bad guy he is, it is to show what Jeyne Poole has become, just as the point of Theon's descriptions was to show you what Theon has become. GRRM can't tell the stories of Theon or Jeyne Poole - or the Walders and the northern lords, for that matter, but of course in an entirely different way - without having to give some details about Ramsay. We all got that Ramsay's an evil psychopath from way early on, no problem, but Ramsay is an event in the stories of other characters and that event has to be described for us to understand those characters. Ramsay in uninteresting in himself, sure, but it is interesting to see what effect he has on others. Not that I read about Jeyne or Theon and think, "hmm, that's so interesting" in some detached way. It is hard to read, but I read it and I think that I've obtained a lot more information about the character than I had before.



For those not in Ramsay's complete control, i.e., people who could resist him without suffering for it, moreover, Ramsay's character serves as a filter that allows us to judge the "true knight"-ness of those he encounters. We judge people by their willingness to stand against Ramsay, but we see over and over that their willingness is not based on their knowledge of his psychosis, but the advantage to their cause. And so his father has given up trying to disown him because it is easier to just let him have his way. Lords sworn to the North let a girl they believe to be Arya Stark get served up to Ramsay and ally themselves with him for it. We judge this world and these people by their inability to contain this evil. The fact that this is a world where Ramsay Snow might become Lord of Winterfell is informative, it is illustrative, it speaks loads for the people around him, it prevents us from idealizing the Northmen who rallied to Robb, because we see now what their allegiance has bought his "sister." Do you imagine how Ned or Jon or Robb or Catelyn or Sam or Brienne or Tyrion would have reacted to being guests at that wedding? I think we are supposed to, and then to look at all the northmen and think, "oh, well, you are a rotten bunch of bastards almost as much as that guy."


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Just my two cents, but I don't think it's actually relevant whether it is something that he actually had her do or just something that he threatened her with, the point is not to show you what a bad guy he is, it is to show what Jeyne Poole has become, just as the point of Theon's descriptions was to show you what Theon has become. GRRM can't tell the stories of Theon or Jeyne Poole - or the Walders and the northern lords, for that matter, but of course in an entirely different way - without having to give some details about Ramsay. We all got that Ramsay's an evil psychopath from way early on, no problem, but Ramsay is an event in the stories of other characters and that event has to be described for us to understand those characters. Ramsay in uninteresting in himself, sure, but it is interesting to see what effect he has on others. Not that I read about Jeyne or Theon and think, "hmm, that's so interesting" in some detached way. It is hard to read, but I read it and I think that I've obtained a lot more information about the character than I had before.

For those not in Ramsay's complete control, i.e., people who could resist him without suffering for it, moreover, Ramsay's character serves as a filter that allows us to judge the "true knight"-ness of those he encounters. We judge people by their willingness to stand against Ramsay, but we see over and over that their willingness is not based on their knowledge of his psychosis, but the advantage to their cause. And so his father has given up trying to disown him because it is easier to just let him have his way. Lords sworn to the North let a girl they believe to be Arya Stark get served up to Ramsay and ally themselves with him for it. We judge this world and these people by their inability to contain this evil. The fact that this is a world where Ramsay Snow might become Lord of Winterfell is informative, it is illustrative, it speaks loads for the people around him, it prevents us from idealizing the Northmen who rallied to Robb, because we see now what their allegiance has bought his "sister." Do you imagine how Ned or Jon or Robb or Catelyn or Sam or Brienne or Tyrion would have reacted to being guests at that wedding? I think we are supposed to, and then to look at all the northmen and think, "oh, well, you are a rotten bunch of bastards almost as much as that guy."

Best answer/ explanation for the 'what is the purpose of Ramsay' question. It does say a LOT about the north men that they allowed a rya to be handed over to him.

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I agree wholeheartedly with the OP. I don't mind the graphic violence and aggressive sexuality that is par for the course in the series, but Ramsey (and I fear Qyborn will be this way too) take it a bit too far. I can hate the guy just as much without knowimg as much as Martin tells us. I actually think I could stomach it more if it were just told outiright, but presenting it through Theon's tortured and terrified memories makes it feel so much more personal.

Yes, there are real people in our own f*cked up world who are this deranged, but I did not begin or fall in the love with this series in order to delve into psychopath's torture methods. I want to read to know the characters and see how this epic story progresses. This could be accomplished (better?) without knowing Ramsey's gratuitous evil.

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