Snoop of House Dogg Posted June 25, 2014 Share Posted June 25, 2014 Hey guys long-time lurker here finally made an account specifically for this question. So you hear a lot of people say the best thing/most unique thing about ASOIAF is that there are lots of morally grey characters. ASOIAF is my fave series for many reasons but this is not one, I believe a lot of the characters are more clear cut than they seem. I fully agree that most characters do good and bad things, but I don't feel that makes them "grey". Let me give a few examples of what i mean. Sandor Clegane - Evil IMO . A lot of people will mention how nice he is to Sansa and Arya - two YOUNG GIRLS who he befriends despite not really having friends elsewhere (ALARM BELLS) He even makes sexual advances towards Sansa - definitely not grey Jaime - Not grey. IMO he started off bad then undertook a redemption arc which brought him to good (not a great sentence i know, but I'm tired). I don't think he was grey at any point except maybe for like a tiny part of his transition. Its quite clear he was bad and is now good IMO. Stopping the burning of KL doesn't shoe his grayness IMO because that was a particularly evil thing that I think most bad guys would also stop (Espicially if it would work out really well for their families - which it did for Jaime) Tyrion - Good. He's a realist, he doesn't pick fights he can't win which means he doesn't stand up to every injustice in the world but his intentions and morals are clearly good IMO. Daenerys - Bad. I don't care how good your intentions are mass genocide is just wrong. Has some compassion and is only a child so maybe i'll concede this one. Cersei - Evil. People say her redeeming factor is her love for her kids and that what choice did she have her whole family would be killed. Maybe try not sleeping with you're f***ing brother next time, ho. Also i don't think she is a good parent and cmon how can you defend her, GTFO with that weak ass s**t People who i consider "morally grey" - Stannis. Okay I'm tired so rather than list every character you guys reply with characters who you think are grey or argue against my points and I'll respond with why i think they aren't grey .Peace out Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jmr1917 Posted June 25, 2014 Share Posted June 25, 2014 That's just, like, your opinion, man. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sullen Posted June 25, 2014 Share Posted June 25, 2014 Tyrion murdered and raped, he's not good. Dany didn't commit mass genocide. Jaime is still fighting a war for a side he knows is in the wrong. I concede Sandor and Cersei as bad characters though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boarsbane Posted June 25, 2014 Share Posted June 25, 2014 Jaime is still fighting a war for a side he knows is in the wrong. Should he turn against his family and children? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sullen Posted June 25, 2014 Share Posted June 25, 2014 Should he turn against his family and children? He shouldn't either, that's what makes him a grey character. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cas Stark Posted June 25, 2014 Share Posted June 25, 2014 Everyone you list is morally grey to me except Cersei, who you rightly list as pure evil. Jamie, Sandor and Tyrion have all done monstrous things, and have also done some good things, that makes them grey. Sandor isn't evil, Jamie isn't good, Tyrion isn't good. Dany to me is no longer good either but many disagree. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snoop of House Dogg Posted June 25, 2014 Author Share Posted June 25, 2014 Tyrion murdered and raped, he's not good. I think i can live with him murdering Shae and Tywin. I can't really remember the rape you speak of, is this when he was in Ilyrios gaff or when he stopped for a whore and met Jorah ? If so he was in a really dark space right then (understandably). That in no way excuses rape but taken into account the rape culture in the books and the fact that both these women were bed servants i guess I would call this more grey than bad Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boarsbane Posted June 25, 2014 Share Posted June 25, 2014 I think i can live with him murdering Shae and Tywin. I can't really remember the rape you speak of, is this when he was in Ilyrios gaff or when he stopped for a whore and met Jorah ? If so he was in a really dark space right then (understandably). That in no way excuses rape but taken into account the rape culture in the books and the fact that both these women were bed servants i guess I would call this more grey than bad Maybe Tywin but he had no possible justification to murder Shae other than he was pissed off and humiliated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snoop of House Dogg Posted June 25, 2014 Author Share Posted June 25, 2014 Jamie, Sandor and Tyrion have all done monstrous things, and have also done some good things My point with Jaime is the chronological-ness (?) of his good and bad things he wasn't doing a bad thing here, a good thing there, it was a character transition so i think he was once bad, now he is good. Don't know what good things Sandor has done as I don't consider his relationship with the Stark girls good things I also consider saving Loras more about him embarrassing his brother than goodness of heart Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheNinjaDC Posted June 25, 2014 Share Posted June 25, 2014 While I do agree the "greyness" of characters in the series is overstated(allot!), most of the examples you've fall in that for either 2 reasons: 1: They have undergone a redemption arc to undo the corruption done to them by others, and rekindle some of their former youths morals (the hound & Jamie). 2: Are good, but are prone to mood swing induced bad(evil) decisions that TWoFK has concentrated (Tyrion & Dany). However, Cersei is rather black. Her only redeeming quality is her lover of her children, which as we move further into the series seems to be spawned from her own self love. Besides that, she is a vile bitch who has had everything handed to her on a silver... GOLDEN PLATTER!!!, yet she still complains about the unfairness of the world towards her. Look at Shireen in contrast. Has a Cersei like mother, Tywin cold like father, grew up in the most deepressing castile in the kingdoms (save Harrenhal), was scarred for life as a young child by grey scale, is constantly mocked because of said grey scale, and whose two living friends are Davos and an insane jester. YET SHE STILL TURNED OUT KIND HEARTED & SWEET! Simply, how... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snoop of House Dogg Posted June 25, 2014 Author Share Posted June 25, 2014 Jaime is still fighting a war for a side he knows is in the wrong. He is trying to bring about a peaceful end to the conflict as seen at Riverun, he knows that his side is the wrong side but if he were to take up the fight on the other side it would mean more pain and suffering during the harsh winter and basically shitting on the small folk. The realm can't take another war and I think he is choosing the best course of action that will bring about the least pain and death. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trigger Warning Posted June 25, 2014 Share Posted June 25, 2014 Well I can't think of many outright evil characters or purely good characters. So I guess most would be grey. Which isn't really some sort of neutrality, just a normal person getting on with their life that makes mistakes or morally questionable choices sometimes and does good at other times. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cas Stark Posted June 25, 2014 Share Posted June 25, 2014 My point with Jaime is the chronological-ness (?) of his good and bad things he wasn't doing a bad thing here, a good thing there, it was a character transition so i think he was once bad, now he is good. Don't know what good things Sandor has done as I don't consider his relationship with the Stark girls good things I also consider saving Loras more about him embarrassing his brother than goodness of heart Is he? What "good" has he done that doesn't still serve his narcissism? I'm not sold on his redemption, better than a traitorous, lying, oath breaking throwing children out of windows...doesn't make you "good" only less bad. Sandor kept Arya alive, I count that as good. He saved Sansa, I count that as good. He finally told the Lannisters and Joff to fuck off and left their service, though that gets a half point since he mostly did it out of fear of the fire and then not wanting to deal with the aftermath. So, he is now "less bad" than he was when we met him. And quite honestly, he was never as bad as Jamie Lannister because he was never doing his own kiling or committing treason like the kingslayer was. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snoop of House Dogg Posted June 25, 2014 Author Share Posted June 25, 2014 1: They have undergone a redemption arc to undo the corruption done to them by others, and rekindle some of their former youths morals (the hound & Jamie). That's my point they are not grey. i.e they no longer have conflicting morals they were once bad and now are good its not a mixture of bad and good at the same time Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sir Lee knot Posted June 25, 2014 Share Posted June 25, 2014 Come'on if you are going to make this argument at least pick characters that make sense. Everyone already listed why those characters are grey. A better choice would be: Gregor Clegane Brienne Eddard Stark Bran Stark Maybe the only one you listed that isn't grey is Cersei but the others are the grayest in the books. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FourmyleOfCeres Posted June 25, 2014 Share Posted June 25, 2014 Hey guys long-time lurker here finally made an account specifically for this question. So you hear a lot of people say the best thing/most unique thing about ASOIAF is that there are lots of morally grey characters. ASOIAF is my fave series for many reasons but this is not one, I believe a lot of the characters are more clear cut than they seem. I fully agree that most characters do good and bad things, but I don't feel that makes them "grey". Let me give a few examples of what i mean. Sandor Clegane - Evil IMO . A lot of people will mention how nice he is to Sansa and Arya - two YOUNG GIRLS who he befriends despite not really having friends elsewhere (ALARM BELLS) He even makes sexual advances towards Sansa - definitely not grey Jaime - Not grey. IMO he started off bad then undertook a redemption arc which brought him to good (not a great sentence i know, but I'm tired). I don't think he was grey at any point except maybe for like a tiny part of his transition. Its quite clear he was bad and is now good IMO. Stopping the burning of KL doesn't shoe his grayness IMO because that was a particularly evil thing that I think most bad guys would also stop (Espicially if it would work out really well for their families - which it did for Jaime) Tyrion - Good. He's a realist, he doesn't pick fights he can't win which means he doesn't stand up to every injustice in the world but his intentions and morals are clearly good IMO. Daenerys - Bad. I don't care how good your intentions are mass genocide is just wrong. Has some compassion and is only a child so maybe i'll concede this one. Cersei - Evil. People say her redeeming factor is her love for her kids and that what choice did she have her whole family would be killed. Maybe try not sleeping with you're f***ing brother next time, ho. Also i don't think she is a good parent and cmon how can you defend her, GTFO with that weak ass s**t People who i consider "morally grey" - Stannis. Okay I'm tired so rather than list every character you guys reply with characters who you think are grey or argue against my points and I'll respond with why i think they aren't grey .Peace out I agree with most of your examples. Jaime is not morally grey, he's evil and possibly a psychopath. Sandor is evil - ALL the 'name' members of the Lannister group from the beginning of the series, with the exception of Tyrion and the two younger heirs, are evil. Cersei is PURE evil, to the point where no reasonable person can even be fooled into arguing she's anything else. Jaime, people can be tricked, but there's no tricking a reasonable person with Cersei. She's the devil. Dany and Stannis are morally grey, however, imo. Stannis is almost an obvious good guy, but his cynical adoption of that religion, his condoning and even ordering the burnings of people on bogus religious grounds, his whiny resentment and feelings of entitlement, are all moral black marks against him. His killing of Renly was entirely morally justified, but his treatment of Maester Cressen was absolutely shameful and was one of the most painful chapters to read of the whole series. Still, all in all I think he's a good man and I expect by the end I'll consider him a hero, barring some kind of weird twist. Dany is - problematic. Her character and her situation is just a big mess, so much so that it's hard to sort any of it out. Part of the problem is she's had almost nothing to do with any obviously 'good' forces. She's always fighting morally murky forces herself, which makes it much more difficult to judge her. She's not fighting Starks. Dany's moral status will not be known till the series is over. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snoop of House Dogg Posted June 25, 2014 Author Share Posted June 25, 2014 Is he? What "good" has he done that doesn't still serve his narcissism? I'm not sold on his redemption, better than a traitorous, lying, oath breaking throwing children out of windows...doesn't make you "good" only less bad Bringing about the least bloody resolution in the riverlands, saving Briene, distancing himself from cersei, helping Tyrion, trying to keep his promise to Cat I'm sure there is more Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snoop of House Dogg Posted June 25, 2014 Author Share Posted June 25, 2014 Everyone already listed why those characters are grey. Maybe the only one you listed that isn't grey is Cersei but the others are the grayest in the books. That's why i chose them there is no point in arguing that characters everyone already agrees are good are good Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snoop of House Dogg Posted June 25, 2014 Author Share Posted June 25, 2014 Sandor kept Arya alive, I count that as good. He saved Sansa, I count that as good. He tried to kiss Sansa !?! A young, scared, vulnerable child ? Arya I think he liked the cut of her jib being a little child murderer and also if I haven't made it clear I think he's a Pedo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sir Lee knot Posted June 25, 2014 Share Posted June 25, 2014 That's why i chose them there is no point in arguing that characters everyone already agrees are good are good Yeah but I'm saying that people already told you why you're wrong so no point in me rehashing it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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