LmL Posted February 27, 2015 Share Posted February 27, 2015 It strikes me that whatever the answer is for the Others will also be the answer for dragons, as they seem to be polar opposites (pardon the pun). I for one think that whatever is being remembered by this tale of the second moon cracking is the event that threw the seasons off. Of course this "cracking of the moon" is associated with the origin of dragons - perhaps. I also think it's possible that this event unbalanced the seasons, and simply brought out the dragons and the Others by way of causing the long night. They may have already existed as elementals, but were simply contained to their natural habitats. "Neverborn" hints at elementals, but not necessarily. We are told that dragons may have (don't think I buy this actually) been engineered from wyverns and firewyrms. That's also not being "born," so if the Others were created like that somehow, they would still be Neverborn. It's hard to say. The Others clearly bring cold when they come, but, that still doesn't mean that caused the Long Night. They can only come out when it's dark, it seems, and it could be that they are simply taking advantage of the Long Night to come out and play, with no daylight to hold them in check. One last note on baby-snatching re: Mithras' idea about greenseers using bats to baby snatch. The Vulture King (a vulture skinchanger of the house Blackmont) did this too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Varys Posted February 27, 2015 Share Posted February 27, 2015 Whoever created the Others or whatever the creation of the Others caused, the dragons clearly aren't in the same league. They may be magical, but they are still just animals, and don't seem to mess with the seasons. The dragons don't have to die for the seasons to go back to normal. They were extinct until recently, and this did not exactly have an effect on the seasons. And the magical dragonrider gene is not going away, either. Aegon the Unworthy saw to that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mithras Posted February 27, 2015 Share Posted February 27, 2015 Whoever created the Others or whatever the creation of the Others caused, the dragons clearly aren't in the same league. They may be magical, but they are still just animals, and don't seem to mess with the seasons. The dragons don't have to die for the seasons to go back to normal. They were extinct until recently, and this did not exactly have an effect on the seasons. And the magical dragonrider gene is not going away, either. Aegon the Unworthy saw to that. 1. Come on Lord Varys. Barth's book is called Dragons, Wyrms, and Wyverns: Their Unnatural History. 2. He sat naked under the elm while he dried, enjoying the warmth of the spring air on his skin as he watched a dragonfly move lazily among the reeds. Why would they name it a dragonfly? he wondered. It looks nothing like a dragon. Not that Dunk had ever seen a dragon. The old man had, though. Dunk had heard the story half a hundred times, how Ser Arlan had been just a little boy when his grandfather had taken him to King’s Landing, and how they’d seen the last dragon there the year before it died. She’d been a green female, small and stunted, her wings withered. None of her eggs had ever hatched. “Some say King Aegon poisoned her,” the old man would tell. “The third Aegon that would be, not King Daeron’s father, but the one they named Dragonbane, or Aegon the Unlucky. He was afraid of dragons, for he’d seen his uncle’s beast devour his own mother. The summers have been shorter since the last dragon died, and the winters longer and crueler.” Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Varys Posted February 27, 2015 Share Posted February 27, 2015 I know that line. And I never said that the dragons don't effect the seasons. I think the original causation of the weird seasons was caused solely by the Others/their creation, rather than the Others and the dragons. My take is that ice and fire magic always existed in Martinworld, not necessarily at odds, and most certainly not fighting each other (that's sort of confirmed by the ancient oath the Reeds swear to the Starks). Whatever caused the Long Night changed that. The Others want to transform the whole world into an icy desert. The dragons and the dragonlords never tried to transform the world into a burning hell. Although there is curious hint that fire magic could do such a thing. The Patrimony of Hyrkoon did quite a lot of blood sacrifice and was very quickly taken over by this awfully hot desert. No idea if they caused this intentionally or tried to stop it but it happened (although there could also be a natural explanation). But the Valyrians never tried or caused anything like that. Dragons being unnaturally created - if they are, originally - does not mean they are an abomination/danger of the same scale as the Others. They are still animals, and if people ignore them, they are not trying to take over the world. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LmL Posted February 27, 2015 Share Posted February 27, 2015 I know that line. And I never said that the dragons don't effect the seasons. I think the original causation of the weird seasons was caused solely by the Others/their creation, rather than the Others and the dragons. My take is that ice and fire magic always existed in Martinworld, not necessarily at odds, and most certainly not fighting each other (that's sort of confirmed by the ancient oath the Reeds swear to the Starks). Whatever caused the Long Night changed that. The Others want to transform the whole world into an icy desert. The dragons and the dragonlords never tried to transform the world into a burning hell. Although there is curious hint that fire magic could do such a thing. The Patrimony of Hyrkoon did quite a lot of blood sacrifice and was very quickly taken over by this awfully hot desert. No idea if they caused this intentionally or tried to stop it but it happened (although there could also be a natural explanation). But the Valyrians never tried or caused anything like that. Dragons being unnaturally created - if they are, originally - does not mean they are an abomination/danger of the same scale as the Others. They are still animals, and if people ignore them, they are not trying to take over the world.I think the Bloodstone Emperor did just that, actually, during the Long Night. The Others advanced from the North, and the Bloodstone Emperor, worshipping the Lion of Night, was using shadow fire (black fire) as a weapon and advancing from the south. Just as the Others' swords are Ice that shines, shadow fire is fire that is dark. All the black dragons breath shadow fire (black flame), if you notice. They're also the biggest ones. My hunch is that the Bloodstone Emp didn't create dragons, but represents a perversion of fire magic and dragons. Just like the Blackfyre line was a bastardized version of Targaryens, the BStone Emp represents bastardized fire magic (black fire) and bastardized dragons (black fire). There is a lot to suggest ancient dragon lords fought a battle at Battle Isle. Don't want to go into it all, but it's definitely there. I am suggesting it was the BStone Emp during the Long Night. This may seem far fetched or crackpot, but again, there's a lot of evidence of for it, which I'm working into a coherent presentation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mithras Posted February 28, 2015 Share Posted February 28, 2015 The dragons and the dragonlords never tried to transform the world into a burning hell. The Red Faith is longing for an eternal summer. That is equally bad as a winter that never ends. Dragons being unnaturally created - if they are, originally - does not mean they are an abomination/danger of the same scale as the Others. They are still animals, and if people ignore them, they are not trying to take over the world. I think this is the reason why the dragons are even more dangerous than the Others. The Others seem to have their own interests but dragons are weapons of mass destruction. History shows that they were used to massace, enslave people, rather than help the world peace. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mithras Posted February 28, 2015 Share Posted February 28, 2015 And note that the dragons didnot bring the magic back to the world as most of the people seem to believe. The global magic level was increasing already and that is why Dany's pyre worked. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Varys Posted February 28, 2015 Share Posted February 28, 2015 An eternal summer is not bad in Martinworld. The Summer Isles, the Lands of the Long Summer, Sothoryos, and Volantis either seem to have an eternal summer (nothing suggests that it ever grows cold on the Summer Isles) - or at least no winter. Pretty much the same as other tropical regions. Volantis is still blasting hot in ADwD when Westeros is preparing for winter. Dragons are living creatures. They may be artificially created, but they are not weapons. They can be used as such - like horses and elephants, but they are living beings. The presence of dragons seems to strengthen certain fire magics, not necessarily every sort of magic. It is an invalid conclusion to equate fire magics and magic in general. Glamors, Faceless Men shapeshifting, shadowbinding, skinchanging, and other stuff seems to have worked fine before the return of the dragons. The magics strengthening in Qarth after Dany's arrival seem to involve fire magics rather than other things - the spells of the Undying worked while the dragons had still not yet returned. We know that pyromancy was practiced in Valyria - which could mean that the Westerosi pyromancers and alchemists came with the Targaryens to Dragonstone/Westeros. After the dragons died, their fire magics no longer worked as well as before, but there is no reason to believe that other magics lost their potency after the Doom and the death of the last dragon. The idea that Dany could only hatch the eggs because of general rise of magic is also not really proven. There is magic in the Targaryen blood, it was always there, and Dany just succeeded to do something other Targaryens may have been able to do as well - they just did not figure out how to do it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crowfood's Daughter Posted March 1, 2015 Share Posted March 1, 2015 However, think of the Reed oath. I swear by bronze and iron. I'm not disputing that the Andals and the CotF are the staunchest of enemies, but then so were the First Men and CotF at one stage. If the Pact had the power to heal that old wound and allow the First Men and Children to live in peace then perhaps a Pact 2.0 could do the same? And think about real world religions, Christianity and Islam, staunch enemies, yet both believers in the same God. Could it be possible that the Bronze and iron part of the oath is not referring to the Andals, but rather the Ironborn? There are some who believe that the Ironborn are a separate people from the First Men. I recall tales we have seen about the Others mention that they hate iron and dragonsteel meaning if the tales are true, there is a possibility iron weapons were around during the Long Night. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Modesty Lannister Posted March 1, 2015 Share Posted March 1, 2015 Could it be possible that the Bronze and iron part of the oath is not referring to the Andals, but rather the Ironborn? There are some who believe that the Ironborn are a separate people from the First Men. I recall tales we have seen about the Others mention that they hate iron and dragonsteel meaning if the tales are true, there is a possibility iron weapons were around during the Long Night. I'd dispute that. If anyone is a foe to everyone in the pact, it's the Ironborn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crowfood's Daughter Posted March 1, 2015 Share Posted March 1, 2015 I'd dispute that. If anyone is a foe to everyone in the pact, it's the Ironborn. Agreed. :thumbsup: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Modesty Lannister Posted March 1, 2015 Share Posted March 1, 2015 Agreed. :thumbsup: I can expand on that endlessly. TWOIAF gives even more clues than before on the Ironborn. There was a great thread about this http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/116612-theory-the-storm-god-represents-the-cotf-fixed-quoting-issues/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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