The Parallel Journey of Daenerys Targaryen & ... Part II

[SeanF]

I do wonder when Dany flashed her goods before Ser Jorah on board the ship to Astapor, was she really egging him on? As you imply, for someone who thinks a Queen shouldn't be attracted to the Queensguard, she seems very conflicted.

[BearQueen87]

I do wonder when Dany flashed her goods before Ser Jorah on board the ship to Astapor, was she really egging him on? As you imply, for someone who thinks a Queen shouldn't be attracted to the Queensguard, she seems very conflicted.

 

I'm sort of torn on this because you're right, it's not as if Dany doesn't know she's naked. She is aware and before getting up to get dressed she ins conscious of it and does try to hide her body.

 

 

Dany leaned forward and yanked Viserion’s tail, to pull him off his green brother. Her blanket fell away from her chest as she moved. She grabbed it hastily and covered herself again.

 

You can argue that after the conversation with Jorah, Dany is so excited to be under way to get her Unsullied army that she momentarily forgets that she's naked but...I don't know. Do people really forget that they're naked? I don't know if she's egging him on, encouraging him to act (even if it's subconscious on her part) but there is something to be said about her being roused. Not necessarily sexually but Jorah has excited her and in that moment anything goes. She certainly doesn't react to the kiss like a woman who is really and truly upset that she's been kissed.

 

At the very least we can say that in that moment of getting up out of bed, Dany doesn't care that Jorah sees her naked. He has certainly seen her naked several times before; he might have seen her and Drogo having sex, he saw her the moment she came forth from the fire, and in Qarth she was not covered up entirely as befitting the Qartheen culture. There is a level of comfort between the two that doesn't exist for Dany and anyone else.

 

As Kyoshi pointed out, Dany (and Sansa) has seen Jorah (and Sandor) at their most vulnerable but the reverse is true as well (I meant to bring this up in my previous post). I've said it before but where Dany has sex with Daario, I would argue there is no intimacy. With Jorah, thus far, there is no sex, but there is real intimacy. Dany wants to know about the woman who broke Jorah's heart and his home on Bear Island and longs to give his home back to him; she opens up about the kind of terror Viserys visited upon on, something she hasn't told anyone even as far as ADWD and the smallest gesture of comfort from Jorah (touching her hair) is all she needs to reassure her that her Astapor plan is sound. Sandor has seen Sansa when she is half naked and scared, and when she's frightened of war. Both times the simple act of a cloak brought Sansa comfort (again, the marriage metaphor is pretty strong). There's an intimacy between both pairs that I think plays into the idea of seeing the beauty behind the beast.

[Parwan]

I've been out of the loop for a good while--too many things to do in the real world. I'm trying to catch up with the discussion now.

 

@ BearQueen87: It's not true that Tyrion knows nothing about the White Walkers. He starts out with a sneering attitude toward the "grumkins and snarks," but he does develop doubts about the matter. At any rate, he knows that the NW now believes them to be a threat. Between Tyrion and Marwyn, Dany should at least get an idea of what is going on north of the Wall. 

 

@ Drogonthedread: Thanks for bringing Marwyn into the conversation. I find him an interesting character, and I hope we see more of him. He's not only a skeptic on the matter of prophecy. He's also a pretty crude, blunt-spoken fellow, a sort of anti-Barristan. He's not likely to pull any punches if he talks to the dragon queen. He surely won't quickly proclaim her the fulfillment of prophecy and savior of the world. 

 

A considerable number of Daenerys's advisers and possible future advisers present an interesting and problematic contrast. They are valuable for their knowledge and advice, but they could be political liabilities. Dany and Jorah have a tangled relationship. She found his actions unforgivable, but she still remembers him fondly and says that he gave her good counsel. However, he is the disgraced former Lord of Bear Island. This is a well known fact. With all that has happened in the North, it won't be as important as it once was. Nevertheless, a good many people in Westeros won't be impressed with this member of the QG, assuming he gets back into Dany's good graces. Tyrion, of course, is a clever and knowledgeable fellow. He's also a known kinslayer and a convicted kingslayer. The dragon queen would not be well advised to have him by her side when she attempts to take the 7K. Marwyn can tell the queen some straight truths. The Citadel, however, will be very unhappy with a monarch who publicly declares her trust in "the Mage."

 

The one real PR asset Daenerys Targaryen has among her advisers is Ser Barristan Selmy, and, in the opinion of many readers, he's the least likely to make it back to Westeros. 

[BearQueen87]

I've been out of the loop for a good while--too many things to do in the real world. I'm trying to catch up with the discussion now.

 

@ BearQueen87: It's not true that Tyrion knows nothing about the White Walkers. He starts out with a sneering attitude toward the "grumkins and snarks," but he does develop doubts about the matter. At any rate, he knows that the NW now believes them to be a threat. Between Tyrion and Marwyn, Dany should at least get an idea of what is going on north of the Wall. 

 

 

Okay that's true and a good point. But Tyrion also threw out the NW brother that came to KL so it's not as if being aware of the NW's concerns changed him mind over much. In fact, does Tyrion spend any time after Yoren visits KL contemplating Yoren's words in future books? Not really, to my recollection. So, it's not as if the WW's are going to be the first item on the list when Tyrion and Dany met. It might be once Marwyn enters the room, but just between Dany and Tyrion...not so much. In fact, I expect their first meeting will look quite similar to the show's version of it.

[Kyoshi]

Thanks for the kind words.

 

Bear Queen,

 

sometimes I can't help but think that if Dany had been raised in Westeros for the majority of her life, yet still ended up in Essos, she would not have accepted Jorah so readily. I think her environment served her well in taking people at more than what the surface suggests.

 

The idea that knights are supposed to do X and end up doing Y is something that Dany discovers in book one as well. Jorah is a knight (something that is passing strange since he's a northman) but not one that follows any sort of code. Jorah protects and defends Dany, at first, largely because he was ordered to and was promised his lands and title back--not exactly a noble cause but rather a highly selfish one. This desire for Bear Island is of course later supplanted by the fact that Jorah is falling in love with Dany, again a selfish desire and not one born out of noble intentions. Jorah doesn't exactly protect women either. He doesn't partake in the rape of the Lamb Women with the Dothraki, but he doesn't try to stop it either. He understands that it's "part of war" and even tells Dany as much (and will again later with his famous "there's a beast inside everyman" speech). He only goes to stop the rape after Dany has ordered him to do so, something he finds both strange and admirable. Jorah certainly doesn't fight for the right but again for his own selfish desires, be it Bear Island and his titles or to prove his love for Dany. I've maintained for a long time now that Jorah and Dany are the courtly love trope carefully subverted. It's the knight and his queen humanized in which the knight isn't content just to live and die by the side of a monogamous queen, but rather his own selfish desires play a huge role in their story. Instead of it being a pure love that does not need any kind of sexual component, it becomes highly sexualized because Jorah does desire Dany as a woman.

 

That's a very good point.

 

Yes there seems to be some idea that the more tragic the tale, the more romantic it is. I fear for Sansa/Sandor, Dany/Jorah and even Brienne/Jaime should GRRM take that stance as well. Though, I've begun to suspect that GRRM is going to take his love of Beauty and the Beast and cut it off at the knees WRT at least two of those couples. Sansa and Sandor reunite, probably during some sort of rescue attempt to get Sansa the heck away from Littlefinger, and I can see Sandor dying in Sansa's arms without the true love resurrection we associate with B and the B. With Dany and Jorah, I think that at some point Dany is going to realize that she does have deep feelings for Jorah (perhaps bordering on the romantic but at the very least realizing that she wants Jorah Mormont in her life in whatever capacity) but GRRM will cut that story off at the knees by subverting the final courtly love stage of "more adventures together" and having Jorah and Dany go their separate ways, more than likely than not because one of them died. Jorah seems destined to die for Dany, he keeps promising her that he will do that should it be required. The lesson for Dany then becomes that she doesn't really ever get to have th life she envisioned--she might be Queen but is it a shared throne with Jon if she even gets to be Queen at the series end? she might be the Mother of Dragons, but I'm going to bet that all three of those dragons are dead by series end. She might realize that she needs Jorah with her but he dies in her defense leaving her alone once more, like in Meereen. (sigh) (BQ gets sad)

 

Ever since the leak of GRRM's original plan for the series, I am now afraid that [Spoiler contains main character's original fate][spoiler]Sansa's death will be the thing that serves to subvert the trope.[/spoiler]When it comes to Jorah and Dany, I think he will fulfill one of Quaithe's cryptic prophecies. I don't think what he's done so far qualifies, but I think his pursuit of Bear Island may feature in a big way in the future. Then again, one could make the argument that his infatuation with Dany exceeds his desire for Bear Island...and one suspects that Bear Queen will make that argument. :P But I think given what happened with Lynesse, the argument becomes complicated. My pessimistic side also predicts only doom for Brienne/Jaime.

 

1. Apparently Sandor had an attraction to Sansa Stark from the get-go. Sansa, on the other hand, is rather horrified at his burned face and his rough mannerisms. It's the Beauty and the Beast set up.

 

I didn't know that. But isn't Sansa 11 when he first meets her?

 

1. I'm not a Sandor/Sasna person so please correct me if I'm wrong, but this never happens, right? Sandor never declares himself to be in love with Sansa. He clearly is because his actions speak louder than words, but he never vocalizes it, right?

 

Nah. I think leaving her his bloodied cloak was supposed to accomplish that. Sansa later imagines a kiss to go with the cloak. Honestly speaking, it was only when I read Sansa remembering the kiss that I started to see the romantic overtones in their story. I thought he was just a guy who didn't want to fit the mold of a knight because his brother is one. And I thought protecting Sansa was his way of defying the knightliness of it all, because the Kingsguard was hurting her. Sansa's remembered false-kiss is what opened my eyes to the whole thing.

 

I really like your analysis of the courtly love trope.

[BearQueen87]

Thanks for the kind words.

 

Bear Queen,

 

sometimes I can't help but think that if Dany had been raised in Westeros for the majority of her life, yet still ended up in Essos, she would not have accepted Jorah so readily. I think her environment served her well in taking people at more than what the surface suggests.

 

 

I wholly agree, actually. I think it took an exile who had never been apart of Westerosi culture (properly) to love an exile.

 

Did I just say love? *runs away*

 

 

Then again, one could make the argument that his infatuation with Dany exceeds his desire for Bear Island...and one suspects that Bear Queen will make that argument. :P

 

One suspects that BQ makes this argument on an almost monthly basis.....

 

 

I didn't know that. But isn't Sansa 11 when he first meets her?

 

I think it's from the app (Sandor's attraction), which I know is problematic in terms of canonicity. And yes, Sansa was only 11 but maybe attraction was the right word. Drawn to her, perhaps? And Sansa was due to be married in only 2 years time (when she was 13) so weird for us, but not so much with Westeros. (Same goes for Jorah and Dany where again there is quite the age difference)

 

 

Nah. I think leaving her his bloodied cloak was supposed to accomplish that. Sansa later imagines a kiss to go with the cloak. Honestly speaking, it was only when I read Sansa remembering the kiss that I started to see the romantic overtones in their story. I thought he was just a guy who didn't want to fit the mold of a knight because his brother is one. And I thought protecting Sansa was his way of defying the knightliness of it all, because the Kingsguard was hurting her. Sansa's remembered false-kiss is what opened my eyes to the whole thing.

 

I really like your analysis of the courtly love trope.

 

FWIW, and take it with a healthy dash of BQ-flavored salt, there's a similar (but more traditional) image for Jorah and Dany. In Dany's final POV in AGOT, Jorah swears to her three times. First as a woman, second as a queen, and lastly as the Mother of Dragons (her three roles). I know I've talked about this before so I'll be brief, but the second one (queen) is something like this Sandor/Sansa scene where he leaves behind his cloak, a sign of his protection, and Sansa imagines a kiss. It's heavily "romantic" because it's what happens in a marriage. It's not unlike a knightly vow which is also akin to a marriage vow, where you place a sign of protection around the bride and seal it with a kiss. Jorah, who has no cloak, places his sword, a sign of protection, in front of Dany, makes an oath, and then they seal it with a kiss.

[Parwan]

 

Okay that's true and a good point. But Tyrion also threw out the NW brother that came to KL so it's not as if being aware of the NW's concerns changed him mind over much. In fact, does Tyrion spend any time after Yoren visits KL contemplating Yoren's words in future books? Not really, to my recollection. So, it's not as if the WW's are going to be the first item on the list when Tyrion and Dany met. It might be once Marwyn enters the room, but just between Dany and Tyrion...not so much. In fact, I expect their first meeting will look quite similar to the show's version of it.

That's true, especially as far as the first meeting goes. Tyrion is not going to say, "Your Grace, the realm is in danger. Put aside any plans for an attack on King's Landing. Take your forces north." Still, the Imp remembers the feeling he got when he stood on the Wall and looked out at the wilderness beyond. In the meeting in the throne room, a number factors came into play. One of them was Tyrion's dislike for Alliser Thorne. Would  a different black brother have gotten a better reception? Probably, but I don't know how much difference that would have made. 

 

Jorah Mormont also has to be considered in this context. He's a northerner, and his father was the Lord Commander of the Night's Watch. He doesn't just love Daenerys. He knows her to be magical, and he has compared her to Rhaegar. What would Jorah, Tyrion, and Marwyn come up with in a discussion about the threat from the north? I don't know. I don't even know that they will all be together in one conversation. 

[BearQueen87]

That's true, especially as far as the first meeting goes. Tyrion is not going to say, "Your Grace, the realm is in danger. Put aside any plans for an attack on King's Landing. Take your forces north." Still, the Imp remembers the feeling he got when he stood on the Wall and looked out at the wilderness beyond. In the meeting in the throne room, a number factors came into play. One of them was Tyrion's dislike for Alliser Thorne. Would  a different black brother have gotten a better reception? Probably, but I don't know how much difference that would have made. 

 

Jorah Mormont also has to be considered in this context. He's a northerner, and his father was the Lord Commander of the Night's Watch. He doesn't just love Daenerys. He knows her to be magical, and he has compared her to Rhaegar. What would Jorah, Tyrion, and Marwyn come up with in a discussion about the threat from the north? I don't know. I don't even know that they will all be together in one conversation. 

 

 

Absolutely.

 

Jorah's Northern knowledge and NW connections is one reason I think Jorah has to live at least back to Westeros and to the battle versus WW's. He's an "inside man." And, if GRRM is very very good to me, then Tyrion, Dany and Jorah will all be in one room together.

[Kyoshi]

The third essay is on its way. Life keeps interrupting. But it's on its way. Sorry for the delay. (I feel like I'm always typing this).

[BearQueen87]

The third essay is on its way. Life keeps interrupting. But it's on its way. Sorry for the delay. (I feel like I'm always typing this).

 

Never fear! We're patient people. :)

[Kyoshi]

The Last Dragon and the Red Wolf

The Parallel Journey of Daenerys Targaryen and Sansa Stark

 

 

ESSAY III: PORCELAIN, IVORY AND STEEL

This is the final of three essays analysing the parallel journeys of Daenerys Targaryen and Sansa Stark.

 

1. DUTY

 

One of the stages in Joseph Campbell’s Journey of the Hero is the Belly of the Whale. In Campbell’s own words (1949), the idea that the passage of the magical threshold is a transit into a sphere of rebirth is symbolised in the worldwide womb of the belly of the whale. The hero, instead of conquering or conciliating the power of the threshold, is swallowed into the unknown and would appear to have died. Instead of passing outward, beyond the confines of the visible world, the hero goes inward, to be born again. Following this stage is the Road of Trials, in which the hero endures a series of tests often occurring in sets of three.

 

In the time between her fourteenth and fifteenth birthday, Daenerys loses her brother, husband, son and khalasar. Left with only an exiled knight, three stone eggs, a misfit group of the old and infirm, she finds herself in a unique and unfamiliar position. She had been a ward when her brother was still alive and a protected khaleesi to her husband; her power, however limited it was, had always lay with someone else. Sansa also loses her family and protection, though with her, the position in which she finds herself is a familiar one. Her betrothal holds nothing but the promise of misery, her family is scattered, her family name is only respected by rebels and secret conspirators, and she is surrounded by enemies.

 

Dany’s entrance into the belly of the whale after these tragedies is somewhat literal. She enters her husband’s funeral pyre. Yet instead of burning to death, she re-emerges with three dragons. The only (superficially significant) thing she seems to have lost in this incident is her hair, which is evocative of what defeated khals have to endure. Later, as her hair grows and she conquers cities and embarks on her abolition mission, she will take to wearing bells in her hair to celebrate her victories.

 

Even though she has just hatched dragons—proven efficient weapons of war, her trials are no easier. Her first comes in the way of leading her people away from their current predicament and location.

 

          “The way the comet points is the way we must go,” Dany insisted…though in truth, it was the only way open to her.

 

          She dare not turn north onto the vast ocean of grass they called the Dothraki sea. The first khalasar they met would swallow up her ragged band, slaying the warriors and slaving the rest. The lands of the Lamb Men south of the river were likewise closed to them. They were too few to defend themselves even against that unwarlike folk, and the Lhazareen had small reason to love them. She might have struck downriver for the ports at Meereen and Yunkai and Astapor, but Rakharo warned her that Pono’s khalasar had ridden that way, driving thousands of captives before them to sell in the flesh marts that festered like open sores on the shores of Slaver’s Bay.

 

On the surface, the belly gifts her with three dragons. But beyond that, it gifts with something that can also be a burden—leadership, something that is cemented by the first gift and her relationship with her deceased “protectors.” She now becomes the protector, a role she assumes with solemnity, because much like Sansa, she believes that agency and wisdom must come at the price of some great personal sacrifice. And given that each girl’s childhood, interrupted as it is, is something that truly belongs to each one in a way that nothing else does, that childhood is something they sacrifice. Here are Dany’s thoughts about her maturity:

 

          They [the people of her khalasar] are not strong, she told herself, so I must be their strength. I must show no fear, no weakness, no doubt. However frightened my heart, when they look upon my face they must see only Drogo’s queen. She felt older than her fourteen years. If ever she had truly been a girl, that time was done.

 

In fact, Dany seems to have internally relinquished her childhood at an earlier point in her journey, as suggested by this quote, taken from her time in Vaes Dothrak:

 

          “You have not laughed since your brother the Khal Rhaggat was crowned by Drogo,” said Irri. “It is good to see, Khaleesi.”

          Dany smiled shyly. It was sweet to laugh. She felt half a girl again.

 

To show strength, to have no fear, weakness and doubt, is something that both Dany and Sansa equate to adulthood. It’s an understandable stance. After all, adults assume a role that comes with greater responsibility than children. However, in their society, where blood and inheritance surpass capability, experience and intentions, children are often tasked with greater responsibility than should be the case, such as with King Joffrey and Robb Stark. But this is also a world that gave us Queen Cersei, King Robert and Lady Lysa. The variety at least suggests that cowardice, weakness and doubt are not unique to children. Although most of his decisions are questionable, Lord Eddard Stark’s thoughts on the matter are worth considering. After Bran asks his father if a man can be brave if he’s afraid, Ned responds by saying, “That is the only time a man can be brave.”

 

In Dany’s case, being a child-woman becomes especially peculiar given that of her immediate entourage, she is only older than Missandei. As a result of this strange combination of circumstances, her relationship with her handmaids and her scribe is one that exists within strange boundaries. She is their queen, but also their friend, sometimes their sister, and she often assumes the role of something akin to a mother, as in this case: [Dany] gave Doreah water from her own skin, cooled her brow with a damp cloth, and held her hand until she died, shivering. Only then would she permit the khalasar to press on.

 

Furthermore, Dany is a Targaryen. Her parents were siblings—her mother was also her aunt and her father was her uncle, making her brothers her cousins, in a way. While growing up, she believed that her bother, someone who also served as the closest thing to a living parent, was going to be her husband as soon as she was old enough to marry. Nothing is ever quite easy, and no one is ever quite what they should be.

 

Although something Dany is apparently willing to shed, her childhood is also something she is ready to use in order to triumph in her trials. This is most notable in the way she often tries to lull her opponents into believing they are in a superior position. After acquiring an army of Unsullied warriors and sacking Astapor, thus firmly establishing herself as anything but ignorant, powerless, or a quintessential underdog, she becomes fond of saying, “I am only a young girl and know little of the ways of war [or such matters].”

 

Other things Dany sacrifices in her quest to be a good leader include personal comfort and freedom. The crown she wears while in rule of Meereen makes her neck and shoulders stiff yet she endures the pain because one of her forbearers thought it a requirement for a king’s (or queen’s) crown to sit with uneasiness upon a head. The ebony bench on which she sits is also said to be quite plain and not regal at all. This she endures to make an idealistic statement to the Meereenese. This motif of compromise, self-denial and limitation to the point of self-sabotage, drives the greater part of her arc while in Meereen, and perhaps when she finally remembers her house words in the final chapter, she finally realises that she cannot continue to exist so freely within the different boundaries of her idealistic confines and still achieve what she set out to do.

 

2. ABYSS

 

Sansa’s entrance into the belly is not quite as literal, and therefore harder to define. On one hand, one can argue that when she sheds the identity of Sansa Stark and dons that of Alayne Stone, she is swallowed into the unknown, figuratively dying as Sansa, and awaiting the moment when the resumption of her true name will complete her submergence into, and emergence from the belly. To start with, Alayne is different from Sansa in several ways: she is a year older, a bastard, dark-haired, and perhaps most importantly, people treat Alayne differently that they would have done Sansa. Her experience of the world becomes drastically different from what Sansa Stark would have had.

 

Firstly, Marllion attempts to rape Alayne simply because she is a bastard and therefore more sexually experienced than trueborn children. In addition to marital aspirations, a frivolous worry at this point, her rights are limited. Secondly, the Lords Declarant of the Eyrie ignore her when she is in a room, discussing their plans without reservation while she is present—something that all the in-universe nobles do in the presence of their servants. By mere virtue of being highborn, one is also expected to be more intelligent, and the opposite is supposedly true for smallfolk. If this were not true, then the Lords Declarant might have considered that the bastard girl who served them wine was also in the process of assessing the secrets they were discussing so freely.

 

To further support the argument of her identity change as an entrance into the belly, one can cite her duties at the Eyrie (her responsibilities as the stand-in lady of the manor and the maturity she gains in experiencing the world as the bastard daughter of a lowly lord) as the gifts of the belly, similar to Dany’s dragons and leadership. Sansa also becomes a blank canvas during her time there and the language is suggestive of this: A pure world, Sansa thought. I do not belong here. And later: A godswood without gods, as empty as me.

 

At this point, her ideas about chivalry and fairy tales have been significantly challenged and somewhat disproved. The only thing remaining to her is her love for music, yet even that is tarnished after Marillion the singer tries to rape her, and after Petyr kills her aunt and frames Marillion for the crime.

 

          Once, when she was just a little girl, a wandering singer had stayed with them in Winterfell for half a year. An old man he was, with windburnt cheeks, but he sang of knights and quests and ladies fair, and Sansa had cried bitter tears when he left them, and begged her father not to let him go. Sansa had prayed to the Seven in their sept and the old gods of the heart tree, asking them to bring the old man back, or better still, to send another singer, young and handsome. But the gods never answered, and the halls of Winterfell stayed silent.

 

          But that was when she was a little girl, and foolish. She was a maiden now, three-and-ten and flowered. All her nights were full of song, and by day she prayed for silence.

 

Another reason Marillion’s crime is significant is that later, Sansa expresses fear that there are times when the lie spun by Petyr seems truer to her than what she remembers to have happened. It may not be a fear worth her time, yet it may be since there have been other occasions on which she remembered either an incident, or the details of the incident differently from the truth. The first is her false recollection of Joffrey’s first sword name as Lion’s Paw. The second recollection is that of a kiss between her and Sandor Clegane, a false kiss she remembers with greater detail as time passes. Whether or not permanent, something within Sansa and about her is in the process of being erased.

 

Before the Eyrie, her father’s death serves as a key transformative experience. Prior to the event, she had been searching beyond Winterfell for joy, and perhaps deeper meaning to her life. The experience strips her of all her childish delusions and delivers some hard truths and darker delusions. In her words, She was nothing now, the discarded daughter of a traitor and disgraced sister of a rebel lord. After Ned’s beheading, she misses Winterfell—the place where she was born and raised. In a sense, Winterfell is her womb, her place of birth and pending rebirth. So the threshold presents itself to her by way of desire as opposed to literal fulfilment. From this point, she portrays strength in character that had previously been either absent or minimal. The events that take place during Stannis’s siege stand out in support of this:

 

            “Oh, gods,” an old woman wailed. “We’re lost, the battle’s lost, she’s running.” Several children were crying. They can smell the fear. Sansa found herself alone on the dais. Should she stay here, or run after the queen and plead for her life?

 

             She never knew why she got to her feet, but she did. “Don’t be afraid,” she told them loudly. “The queen has raised the drawbridge. This is the safest place in the city. There’s thick walls, the moat, the spikes…”

 

Furthermore, and although this takes place before her father’s death, this also stands out as a moment in which Sansa was willing to assume the role of protector. The incident takes place after the chaos that followed King Robert’s death: Sansa dried her own tears as she struggled to comfort her friend. They [Jeyne Poole being one of the girls] went to sleep in the same bed, cradled in each other’s arms like sisters.

 

Sansa’s childhood is something she doesn’t let go of quite as easily as Dany outwardly does hers. One of Margaery’s cousins—Elinor, who is noted as being among those closer to Sansa’s age than the younger ones, reveals she is promised to a young squire who had won her favour in the Battle of Blackwater. He is said to have slain a Myrish crossbowman and others. The squire also claims that Elinor’s favour made him fearless and that he shouted her name as his battle cry. This is something that apparently pleases Elinor and enthrals some of the other cousins, as one of them says, “Someday I want some champion to wear my favour, and kill a hundred men.” This is the sort of stuff Sansa once lived for. Yet here, her reaction is as follows:

 

          They are children, Sansa thought. They are silly little girls, even Elinor. They’ve never seen a battle, they’ve never seen a man die, they know nothing. Their dreams were full of songs and stories, the way hers had been before Joffrey cut her father’s head off. Sansa pitied them. Sansa envied them.

 

Note that Sansa singles out Elinor—the one whose age was closest to hers, the betrothed, the one supposed to be wiser than the others—the one not meant to be a child, the elder among children (or adult in general), like Sansa herself.

 

The motif of strangely defined boundaries is also prominent in Sansa’s journey. Her stay at the Eyrie is characterised, to a significant degree, by the strange relationship between her and her cousin Robert. She is initially introduced to him as his betrothed. After his mother’s death, she becomes something akin to a mother, a nursemaid, a sister, a playmate, and a target for his seemingly romantic attention. Similar arguments can be made for her relationship with Petyr. There are times when she seems nothing more than a damsel to him, but then a daughter, a pawn, and a target for his romantic attention. Whatever the truth, only time will tell.

 

3. TRIAL

 

Dany’s trials literally come in sets of threes. The Undying go as far as calling her child of three. After wandering the Red Waste, Dany and her khalasar finally arrived in Qarth—a city that rejected them for their famed barbarism, and a city in which Dany and Drogon ultimately burned an old order of mystical people, the Undying. Then came Astapor—a city that rejected them for Dany’s naivety, a city they later sacked and burnt. Finally, came Yunkai—a city that although rejected them for Dany’s idealism and their crimes in Astapor, they left untouched. A different method was used in conquering or surviving each city: begging, fighting and negotiating.

 

Along these lines, Meereen is something of a victory. But along other lines, it is another trial. Dany’s rule is threatened by an insurgency within the walls, a siege outside and famine, conquest and death all around. And whatever victory Meereen may be in terms of her abolition mission, it is a personal failure of sorts for her, as indicated by the following: Up here in her garden Dany sometimes felt like a god, living atop the highest mountain in the world. Do all gods feel so lonely?

 

There comes a time when the only options before her are a wedding and a war. The latter is undesirable for obvious reasons. The former, on the other hand, is something that will set her back to a time before the hatching of the dragons. Ironically, it will re-enslave her and only serve to jumpstart a series of compromises that will further compromise her position. She chooses the wedding. But the symbolism there and the events that follow only serve to confirms the issue of personal enslavement: Four hours later, they emerged again as man and wife, bound together wrist and ankle with chains of yellow gold.

 

Most of Sansa’s trials come in the form of suitors: Joffrey, Tyrion and Robert. Although an argument can be made that Harry the Heir belongs on that list, a second can be made that Sansa’s preparedness in dealing with him, and her willingness to deceive him sets him apart from the others. Just as Dany is willing to sometimes play coy with her opponents, Sansa is somewhat accomplished in this when she arrives at the Eyrie. She has had ample practice with Joffrey and Tyrion.

 

Another thing Dany and Sansa have in common is that some of their greatest victories become tarnished after they allow themselves time to consider how their actions affected others. They start to doubt themselves and their own agency. Dany’s example comes in the form of the much debated crucifixion of the 163 Great Masters of Meereen. This is what she thought after ordering the punishment:

 

         She had them nailed to wooden posts around the plaza, each man pointing at the next. The anger was fierce and hot inside her when she gave the command; it made her feel like an avenging dragon. But later, when she passed the men dying on the posts, when she heard their moans and smelled their bowels and blood…

 

            Dany put the glass aside, frowning. It was just. It was. I did it for the children.

 

This is a divisive incident, debated countless times yet still unresolved. Personally^[1], I see it as a situation in which the Code of Hammurabi should apply—an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth. After all, this is a world in which it is acceptable to behead a man for desertion without so much as a trial. Justice, and the rightness and wrongness of things are not pure ideas. Like her, I feel the argument of the children should be sufficient to defend, and ultimately nullify her undeniable crime. The difference between Dany and I is that she—someone who lives in that world, shows regret for her actions.

 

After her disillusionment of Joffrey, the Tyrells give Sansa some hope in love and happiness by spinning tales of Willas—the crippled heir to Highgarden. Even after she realises that what probably attracts the Tyrells is her name and the promise of Winterfell, Sansa consoles herself with the hope that with time, her beauty, and any sons she might bear him, Willas might grow to love her. But that is not to be because in her naivety, Sansa confesses all of this to Ser Dontos, prompting the Lannisters to arrange a secret wedding for her and Tyrion. This is a crushing defeat since it makes her a Lannister in the eyes of the law. It makes her part of the family that is essentially in the process of wiping out her own. Following all of this, in a brief moment of rebellion, Sansa seizes an opportunity of personal victory:

 

          She felt another tug at her skirt, more insistent. I won’t. Why should I spare his feelings, when no one cares about mine?

 

         The dwarf tugged at her a third time. Stubbornly she pressed her lips together and pretended not to notice. Someone behind them tittered. The queen, she thought, but it didn’t matter. They were all laughing by then, Joffrey the loudest. “Dontos, down on your hands and knees,” the king commanded. “My uncle needs a boost to climb his bride.”

And so it was that her lord husband cloaked her in the colours of House Lannister whilst standing on the back of a fool.

 

But of course, the victory is short-lived when the following happens: When Sansa turned, the little man was gazing up at her, his mouth tight, his face as red as her cloak. Suddenly she was ashamed of her stubbornness. She smoothed her skirts and knelt in front of him, so their heads were on the same level. “With this kiss I pledge my love, and take you for my lord and husband.”

 

4. OTHER DISCUSSIONS AND CONCLUSIONS

 

Listed below are a few glaring similarities and differences between our subject characters:

 

--- Although still very young, both Dany and Sansa arrive at the conclusion they may never be able to trust anyone. Dany’s mistrust is motivated by Mirri Maz Duur’s actions, Jorah’s betrayal and Quaithe’s prophecy of three poorly-explained treasons. Sansa’s is fuelled by the heartbreak she experienced over Joffrey’s cruelness and treatment of her, and Theon Greyjoy’s betrayal.

 

--- They both struggle with sleep. Dany seems to go entire nights without sleep in some of her Dance chapters. Sansa sometimes has nightmares about the day Princess Myrcella Baratheon was sent to Dorne and she was attacked by the mob. Dany’s dreams on the other hand, tend to be more supernatural.

 

--- Dany has very little appetite, if any at all. Sansa’s isn’t as clearly chronicled but she doesn’t seem to indulge all that much.

 

--- If I remember correctly, Dany loves sailing; she even reveals a childish dream of becoming a sailor. Sansa does not like sailing.

 

--- Dany starts the series as someone who likes to ride; Sansa does not. But later, while held captive in King’s Landing, riding is one of the things she misses.

 

As a final word, there is certainly a lot more to be said where these two characters are concerned. From the way they see the world: the fairy tales that influence them, the losses they experience and how these affect them, the people they adopt along the way, how they grow as people and change their view of the world, is something that can’t be covered by one poster and with only three essays. Everything is very complex and my lens can only approach and thoroughly examine a small speck of it all. But I hope my efforts were satisfactory. And I thank you for reading and discussing.

 

 

                                                                                                                                                                                                              

[1] I apologise for the self-insertion. It was difficult to write this section without assuming the first person or clouding it with my personal opinions.

[Kyoshi]

Never fear! We're patient people. :)

 

Thanks for the patience. :)

 

Enjoy the discussion! :)

[SeanF]

Thank you very much.

Haven't the pair of them had to grow up at an incredibly rapid pace! Few teenagers can have experienced such adversity (although people do, who grow up in war zones). It must take its toll.

[Queen‍‍‍‍‍‍ Alysanne‍‍™]

Daenerys and Stannis will be posted by the end of the week.

[SeanF]

Daenerys and Stannis will be posted by the end of the week.

I bet that will attract some fury.

[Kyoshi]

I absolutely hate the new forum. So horrible, so unnecessary. I'm just glad nothing was eaten away from this thread.

Thank you very much.

Haven't the pair of them had to grow up at an incredibly rapid pace! Few teenagers can have experienced such adversity (although people do, who grow up in war zones). It must take its toll.

I think that's true, and sometimes worse for most of the small-folk. Being a hippie, tree-hugging pacifistic that I am, that's what bothers me most about the nobility. This isn't the tragedy Olympics but even though Sansa and Dany experience such great adversities, imagine how much worse it is for common girls, like Pretty Pia.

Eagerly awaiting the Stannis parallel. Yeah, that's bound to attract some fury.

[Kyoshi]

Daenerys and Stannis will be posted by the end of the week.

I now wonder if your post didn't get swallowed. The forum seems to have swallowed entire threads.

*Hope you get a notification for this.

[SeanF]

I absolutely hate the new forum. So horrible, so unnecessary. I'm just glad nothing was eaten away from this thread.

I think that's true, and sometimes worse for most of the small-folk. Being a hippie, tree-hugging pacifistic that I am, that's what bothers me most about the nobility. This isn't the tragedy Olympics but even though Sansa and Dany experience such great adversities, imagine how much worse it is for common girls, like Pretty Pia.

Eagerly awaiting the Stannis parallel. Yeah, that's bound to attract some fury.

I'm not sure who has it worse.

The Smallfolk are subject to all manner of horrors at the hands of invading armies, and groups like the Bloody Mummers who see war as a chance to act out their most depraved fantasies.  The nobility can also suffer at the hands of the same groups.  But, they are better-protected, and if captured, may be protected by their potential ransom value.

OTOH, prominent nobles (or their wives or children) may get singled out for particularly vicious treatment, by people who bear them a grudge or want them dead for political reasons (eg Queen Helaena's children, Elia and her children)

 

 

[Kyoshi]

I'm not sure who has it worse.

The Smallfolk are subject to all manner of horrors at the hands of invading armies, and groups like the Bloody Mummers who see war as a chance to act out their most depraved fantasies.  The nobility can also suffer at the hands of the same groups.  But, they are better-protected, and if captured, may be protected by their potential ransom value.

OTOH, prominent nobles (or their wives or children) may get singled out for particularly vicious treatment, by people who bear them a grudge or want them dead for political reasons (eg Queen Helaena's children, Elia and her children)

 

 

Agreed.

Each class has its own troubles. With the nobles, they also have that thing where their lives don't really belong to them. That's the best way I can phrase it at this point. Lysa [who had to get an abortion and marry a man she didn't want] and Robb [whose own marriage led to his death] are some of the examples I can use to try and make my point. The image of them and how people perceive them is far more important than what they themselves want. Sansa and Dany too. Troubles of a different nature, but still troubles, else Dany wouldn't have ended up with Drogo [the more I read the books, the more I hate Drogo].

_________________________

Hope these posts don't get eaten by the forum too.

[SeanF]

Agreed.

Each class has its own troubles. With the nobles, they also have that thing where their lives don't really belong to them. That's the best way I can phrase it at this point. Lysa [who had to get an abortion and marry a man she didn't want] and Robb [whose own marriage led to his death] are some of the examples I can use to try and make my point. The image of them and how people perceive them is far more important than what they themselves want. Sansa and Dany too. Troubles of a different nature, but still troubles, else Dany wouldn't have ended up with Drogo [the more I read the books, the more I hate Drogo].

_________________________

Hope these posts don't get eaten by the forum too.

Objectively speaking, Drogo was a pretty awful man. But, he was a product of his culture. By Dothraki standards, he was an admirable man. If anything, he was probably slightly kinder and more merciful than the average Dothraki (admittedly, that's like being dryer than water). I think it's important that Dany doesn't hate him, so I don't either. If Drogo were somehow brought back to life, she'd jump into bed with him in a second. He in turn, I think, would be very impressed at what his wife had achieved.