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The Parallel Journey of Daenerys Targaryen & ... Part II

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Welcome to the "The Parallel Journey of Daenerys Targaryen & ..." re-read Project!



Well, we aren't trying to reinvent the wheel but we are trying to make it shinier. So, we've developed a new kind of re-read - here we will be exploring George RR Martin's use of character parallels to better understand individual character arcs as well as the story as a whole. The re-read will focus on Daenerys Targaryen and the parallels she shares with a selection of other POV characters.



Each week an essay will be posted analyzing different aspects of the character parallels, most comparisons (or contrast) will consist of three essays. The themes of each essay will vary depending on the parallels Daenerys shares with each character.



So, what do we want to get out of our re-read? We hope to better understand the intricate web Martin is creating with his different characters. As you follow along with the re-read essays ask yourself the following questions:


  • What is Martin's purpose in creating these parallels?
  • How might these parallels affect each character if they ever meet?
  • What are we suppose to take away from the comparison (or contrast) of these two characters?

Now, let's meet our formidable contributors (in alphabetical order so as not to give preference ;) ):


  • BearQueen87
  • JonCon's Red Beard
  • Kyoshi
  • MoIaF
  • Parwan
  • Queen Alysanne
  • SeanF
  • Suzanna Stormborn

As with most re-read's there are some ground rules we hope you'll follow:



  • Discussion should focus on the essay of the week, please let's stay on topic.
  • When discussion please refrain from making unsubstantiated comments or be disrespectful towards other posters. We are aiming to do an objective analysis and it would be greatly appreciated if we stay on topic and not argue with each other about our personal feeling about the character.
  • Your observations are very important to our discussion; if you find instances of foreshadowing, interesting symbolism, or other thoughts that can add to our discussion please share them with us. When ever possible quote from the text, it'll help enrich the discussion.

Finally, here is our schedule for this re-read. We aim to keep on schedule, however, we ask that you bear with us if we are running a little late.


  • The Last Dragon and the Lone Wolf: Dany and Arya - BearQueen87

Essay I - Introduction, Loss and Making Your Own Pack: 1/4/15


Essay II - Blood, War and Magic: 1/11/15


Essay III - Identity: 1/18/15


  • The Princess and the Queen: Dany and Arianne (mini parallel) - Queen Alysanne

Essay I - 1/25/15


  • Of Dragons and Wolves: Dany and Bran - Queen Alysanne / MoIaF

Essay I - A Magical Awakening & A Magical Journey: 2/1/15


Essay II - The Place of Magic & Mythology: 2/8/15


Essay III - Animal Bond & Miscellaneous Similarities 2/15/15


  • Dany and Cersei - SeanF / Suzanna Stormbirn / JonCon's Red Beard

Essay I.I - Lives: Uneasy Lies the Head - SeanF: 2/22/15


Essay I.II - l Lives: Love and Sexuality - SeanF: 3/7/15


Essay II.I - Madness - Suzanna Stormborn: 3/15/15


Essay II.II - Motherhood - Suzanna Stormborn: 3/29/15


Essay III - Walk of Shame vs. Walk of Triumph - JonCon's Red Beard: April 5, 2015


  • Complimentary Counterparts: Dany and Jon - MoIaF

Essay I - From The Outside Looking In - MoIaF: May 24, 2015


Essay II - Who am I? - MoIaF: June 2, 2015


Essay III - June 7, 2015


  • Dany and Ned - Parwan

Essay I - Wolf and Dragon - Daenerys Targaryen adn Eddard Stark: June 14, 2015


Essay II - Wolf and Dragon - Daenerys Targaryen adn Eddard Stark: June 25, 2015


Essay III - Wolf and Dragon - Daenerys Targaryen adn Eddard Stark: July 6, 2015


  • Dany and Sansa - Kyoshi

Essay I - The Lst Dragon and The Red Wolf - Home is Behind the World Ahead: July 5, 2015


Essay II - July 12, 2015


Essay III - July 19, 2015


  • Dany and Stannis (mini parallel) - QueenAlysanne

Essay I - July 26, 2015



You can find Part I of our discussion here



THANK YOU FOR JOINING US!


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Eagerly awaiting the next analysis. Thanks for the new thread.


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Eagerly awaiting the next analysis. Thanks for the new thread.

My pleasure.

Cersei actually call it assault, by the way. She thinks in terms of victim and abuser when it comes to Robert and hers marital relationship. However, with both Drogo and Hizzy later, Dany never classifies herself as such.

Right, Dany never sees herself that way even though I would argue that with Drogo for an extent at the beginning of their marriage she was abuse. With Hizzy I would not say the same. She willingly entered into it and although there are similarities in the two scenes Dany wasn't a victim there.

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Oh hey, new shiny!








Right, Dany never sees herself that way even though I would argue that with Drogo for an extent at the beginning of their marriage she was abuse. With Hizzy I would not say the same. She willingly entered into it and although there are similarities in the two scenes Dany wasn't a victim there.





Dany did willingly enter into the marriage which is why she probably doesn't consider herself a victim there either. Though, similar with Drogo and what we discussed last thread, does that mean she wasn't? With the one sex scene we get of Dany and Hizzy (can their 'ship name be Dizzy?) it's written as abusive: Hizzy pulls off her robe, he tumbles her backwards, Dany lets him have his way. It's similar in that Dany isn't recognizing this as abusive just like she didn't with Drogo. It's a passive acceptance that this is "how it goes" between husband and wife, in which a man can claim his rights.



Cersei also talks about how Robert would "claim his rights" even at the very end of their marriage when he only came to her about once a year. Another big difference is that Cersei voices her complaints against Robert to his face and even gets violent in return--from smashing a horn of ale against his face and chipping a tooth to, y'know, plotting his death. Dany is never violent against Drogo but instead grows accustomed to sex with him and even finds pleasure in it.



Another similarity: they are both responsible for the death of their husbands. Cersei deliberately sets out to kill Robert, though she has someone else do the deed. Dany does not want to end Drogo's life, but in the end she must and she commits the act herself. Where Cersei revels in killing Robert--to the point where she is eating boar nonstop because it reminds her of her victory--Dany mourns Drogo and finds ways to remember him and carry on his memory.


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In the case of Hizdahr, it's - at the very least - a marriage between equals. Indeed, Dany is probably the more powerful of the two. If he beat and raped her, she could have him executed. When they make love, , he has no interest in trying to please her, but it's not actually painful for her, in the way that it was for Cersei. I can't really see Dany as a victim in this case.

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In the case of Hizdahr, it's - at the very least - a marriage between equals. Indeed, Dany is probably the more powerful of the two. If he beat and raped her, she could have him executed. When they make love, , he has no interest in trying to please her, but it's not actually painful for her, in the way that it was for Cersei. I can't really see Dany as a victim in this case.

Not a victim per se, but more passive acceptance of something Dany doesn't particularly want or desire. In other words, like 99.9% of highborn Westerosi marriages. But there is something unnerving about how the scene is written between Dizzy and the language George used that lends itself to greater sympathy for Dany.

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Not a victim per se, but more passive acceptance of something Dany doesn't particularly want or desire. In other words, like 99.9% of highborn Westerosi marriages. But there is something unnerving about how the scene is written between Dizzy and the language George used that lends itself to greater sympathy for Dany.

I agree, that scene in bed of Dany and Hizzy was almost like the "bedding" custom in Westeros. It was more or less Dany "selling" herself to Hizzy.

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In the previous thread, I was working out the comparison of Cersei's humiliating walk from Baelor's Sept to the Red Keep with Dany's walk into the pyre and the hatching of the dragons. I speculated that one difference is that Dany chose who would burn on the pyre with her while Cersei had circumstances imposed on her (she was shaved by others, for instance, instead of choosing a path that involved loss of her hair and clothing). I also thought that the alchemist Qyburn might be the equivalent for Cersei of Dany's Mirri Maaz Dur.



After more thought, I have to admit that Cersei did choose who would "burn in the pyre" with her, even though she didn't know she was doing it at the time: she figured out which men would testify that they had slept with Margaery and, therefore, which would be punished by the High Sparrow. Or she chose which men she would sleep with, thus sealing their fate when the representatives of the faith accused her of illicit sex.



But I'm most intrigued by the victims who were ingredients in the alchemy of bringing Ser Robert Strong to life. Cersei tells Qyburn he can have care of the dying Gregor Clegane, a mummer (I think?), a couple of puppeteers and Falyse Stokeworth. How do these compare to the stallion, Khal Drogo and Mirri Maaz Dur who burn in the pyre when Dany is reborn? What qualities do Cersei's chosen victims portend in Cersei's rebirth?


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But I'm most intrigued by the victims who were ingredients in the alchemy of bringing Ser Robert Strong to life. Cersei tells Qyburn he can have care of the dying Gregor Clegane, a mummer (I think?), a couple of puppeteers and Falyse Stokeworth. How do these compare to the stallion, Khal Drogo and Mirri Maaz Dur who burn in the pyre when Dany is reborn? What qualities do Cersei's chosen victims portend in Cersei's rebirth?

Hm. Good question. I know JCRB is doing Cersei's walk in a few weeks (and paralleling it with Dany's walk back to Meereen) so touching on it briefly, my own passing thoughts: I think Cersei's victims are all that: victims. They are chosen maliciously, without much thought, and with little consideration for their families or friends. They have only wronged Cersei either not at all (what did the puppeteers do?? I honestly can't even remember, but I'm betting it was incredibly minor) or only slightly, like Falyse who's husband was more at fault than the Lady Stokeworth. It's Cersei who takes these perceived slights and blows them up to Aerys II-level.

With Dany, Drogo and the Stallion aren't victims. She's honoring Drogo in the Dothraki fashion. It wouldn't have mattered what the circumstances led to Drogo dying; she would have built him a pyre and killed his stallion so he could have a mount in the Night Lands. That's just the Dothraki way. Mirri Maz Duur is the victim there, but unlike--say--Falyse Stokeworth, the slight upon Dany is more egregious, in Dany's eyes who hold MMD responsible for Drogo's state and for the death of her child. Dany's rebirth then is more honorable and there is something beautiful about a wife paying her final goodbyes to a beloved husband, but still tinged with fire and blood and vengeance, than Cersei's.

By contrast, Cersei's rebirth is one laced with dishonor and, I think, it will be something ugly and monstrous to behold (ie: she's gonna toast KL)

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In the previous thread, I was working out the comparison of Cersei's humiliating walk from Baelor's Sept to the Red Keep with Dany's walk into the pyre and the hatching of the dragons. I speculated that one difference is that Dany chose who would burn on the pyre with her while Cersei had circumstances imposed on her (she was shaved by others, for instance, instead of choosing a path that involved loss of her hair and clothing). I also thought that the alchemist Qyburn might be the equivalent for Cersei of Dany's Mirri Maaz Dur.

After more thought, I have to admit that Cersei did choose who would "burn in the pyre" with her, even though she didn't know she was doing it at the time: she figured out which men would testify that they had slept with Margaery and, therefore, which would be punished by the High Sparrow. Or she chose which men she would sleep with, thus sealing their fate when the representatives of the faith accused her of illicit sex.

But I'm most intrigued by the victims who were ingredients in the alchemy of bringing Ser Robert Strong to life. Cersei tells Qyburn he can have care of the dying Gregor Clegane, a mummer (I think?), a couple of puppeteers and Falyse Stokeworth. How do these compare to the stallion, Khal Drogo and Mirri Maaz Dur who burn in the pyre when Dany is reborn? What qualities do Cersei's chosen victims portend in Cersei's rebirth?

I'll try to check later but iirc, she also gave him her first maid (Senelle?) and a bounty hunter who brought the wrong dwarf's head. And, as far as we know, Qyburn was the last one to have possession of Jamie's sword hand. (ick) eta clarity

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Dany and Cersei Parallels/Madness



I do hope this essay will not cause too much controversy. Dany is not mad, not in any way, she is not her father, nor is she Aerion Brightflame. Cersei, on the other hand, is a paranoid, delusional, obsessed, ruthless, sociopathic Tyrant and downright crazy on many many occasions. She shares many traits with Aerys and Viserys, but hardly shares anything with Dany. The funny thing is that other Targaryens have seemed mad, or have actually been mad for thinking or doing things that seemed crazy at the time, but then when Dany tried them they worked perfectly. If she had walked into that pyre after sacrificing a human and a horse and she had burnt to a crisp, then obviously she would fall right into the category of mad, obsessed Targaryen, who died trying to live like a god. Of course that is not what happened, Dany was correct about the pyre and hatching the dragons, so what would have been ‘mad’ for someone else to try looks absolutely genius in her hands.


I have compared and contrasted Dany and Cersei in the madness categories which seemed to plagues Aerys the most (he will be our ‘Madness’ gauge) mostly from FFC and DwD, Cersei has far less chapters, but I thought it only fair to judge her from her own POV instead of how others saw her (except on one or two special occasions where she was especially hurtful to others with zero remorse). I have separated Cersei’s behavior into categories, and will also show similar situations from Dany and how there could not be two more different rulers. Of course there are a ton more comparisons and quotes I could analyze, but this paper can only be so long. Please everyone add more comparisons to the discussion :)





Paranoid


1.FFC--On Tommens wedding day she explains all the precautions to prevent him being poisoned, which are extensive, then says “Tyrion will not kill the same way twice. He is too cunning for that. He could be under the floor even now, listening to every word we say and making plans to open Tommen’s throat.”



DwD—“My people are bleeding, Dying. A queen belongs not to herself, but to the realm. Marriage or carnage, those are my choices. A wedding or a war.”



Both of these situations are forced marriages that many oppose, this is a good example of what Dany thinks of beforehand; her duty and her people. And what Cersei thinks of, ‘Who all and how many people are trying to poison me and my son right now? And where are they hiding?’






2. FFC--“Fool. No one who wears a crown is ever safe.” She looked about the hall. Mace Tyrell laughed amongst his knights. Lord Redwyne and Rowan were talking furtively. Ser Kevan sat brooding over his wine at the back of the hall, whilst Lancel whispered something to a septon. Senelle was moving down the table, filling the cups of the bride’s cousins with wine as red as blood. Grand Maester Pycelle had fallen asleep. There is no one I can rely upon, not even Jaime, she realized grimly. I will need to sweep them all away and surround the king with mine own people.



DwD—“No one ever kept me safe when I was little. Well, Ser Willem did, but then he died, and Viserys…. I want to protect you but…It is so hard. To be strong. I don’t always know what I should do. I must know, though, I am they have. I am the queen…the… the ….”


“…mother,” Missandei whispered


“Mother to dragons.” Dany shivered.


“No. Mother to us all. “Missandei hugged her tighter.



Comparing their roles as Queen, their devotion to their people and to keeping their realm safe and in order. Cersei spends all of her time complaining about how inept everyone is, she sees schemes and plots everywhere just as Aerys did. While Dany’s main concern is keeping her people safe, not making promises she cannot keep, accepting that she is not perfect, that she can make mistakes, but that even if she does she still has to be strong for them. Cersei just wants to kill everyone who annoys her, like flies in a lantern.






3.FFC—‘Cersei refused Mace Tyrell as well, and later Lancel. The others took the hint, and no one else approached her. Our fast friends and loyal lords. She could not even trust the westermen, her father’s sworn swords and bannermen. Not if her own uncle was conspiring with her enemies…. ‘



DwD-“They are very sweet, the both of them,” Dany assured her. “Qezza sings for me sometimes….


“They are of my blood,” the Green Grace said, as Qezza filled her cup with a dark red wine. “it is good to know they have pleased Your Radiance. I hope I may do likewise.”



Cersei does not trust anyone, even her council and staunchest supporters, Dany treats her enemies with so much respect it may not be good for her. Sure you can fault Dany for this, but bottom line is that anyone she comes in contact with she gives them the benefit of the doubt, want there to be peace, strives to please everyone as much as she can. While Cersei tries to accommodate no one, she does not care about making anyones lives easier or if anyone is even mildly happy, in short she is a very unfit ruler, simply because she cares nothing about the court, the small folk, nobody.








Delusional


1. FFC-“Who can say what that vile dwarf may have told, or to whom? Uncle Kevan is the least of it. The High Septon…Tyrion raised him to the crown, when the fat one died. He may know as well. You must be Tommen’s hand. I do not trust Mace Tyrell. What if he had a hand in Father’s death? He may have been conspiring with Tyrion. The imp could be on his way to Highgarden…Be my hand and we’ll rule the seven kingdoms together, like a king and queen.”



DwD—‘She would sooner have returned to Meereen on dragon’s wings, to be sure. But that was a desire Drogon did not seem to share.


The dragonlords of old Valyria had controlled their mounts with binding spells and sorcerous horns. Daenerys made do with a word and a whip.’




I compare these two as what the girls do in time of much need. Cersei reached out to her brother and asks him to rule the kingdom beside her, he has been in love with her his whole life, yet by now even he knows she is a monster. He wont even consider her offer, he rejects her. And it was quite crazy of her to even ask this of him considering everything involving the rumors of the two of them and the legitimacy of Tommen’s claim to the throne. Anyway when she is alone and abandoned this is what she does. When Dany is alone and has fled Meereen due to none of her plans working out, and the Ghiscari slavers getting everything they wanted, she tries to better herself. She builds a relationship with her dragon ‘like the old dragonlords of Valyria’ because she knows this is how she will win, this is how she will be able to do what is right. No one would take her seriously and this is how she will make them. When Dany is desperate she reaches out for something smart, something that will and can help her, living up to her proud Valyrian dragonlord heritage. Cersei in a desperate situation does not think of what would be best or what will actually help her, she just goes with the first thought and never even considers stepping back. And this is all born from her paranoia, she has to make every decision so rapidly because she feels if she doesn’t then Mace Tyrell (or whoever) will make a choice for her and that would be the worst thing ever, if she actually listened to someone else’s council.







2. FFC--Cersei thinks Tommen chokes at his wedding, but it’s just a cough, she goes in the hall to cry…”Your grace?” Said a voice behind her. “Do I intrude?”


It was a woman’s voice, flavored with accents of the east. For an instant she feared that Maggy the Frog was speaking to her from the grave.’



Dany really has no quotes to compare to this. She is not delusional ever. She does have a time of sickness in her last chapter where she thinks of many things going on and talks to herself a bit. But all can agree that she is dehydrated, starved, worn out, having a miscarriage and eating poisonous berries all at the same time. There is nothing odd about her behaviour, in fact even though all this is happening to her she keeps a rather clear mind throughout. Cersei is nuts on a daily basis, she has delusions, psychotic episodes, sees shadows and enemies over every shoulder, Dany has many enemies as well, but she never takes it to the paranoid levels that Cersei does.







Obsessed


1.FFC--“Do you still mean to go ahead and burn the Tower of the Hand?”


“After the Feast.” It was the only part of the days festivities that Cersei thought she might enjoy. “Our lord father was murdered in that tower. I cannot bear to look at it. If the gods are good, the fire may smoke a few rats from the rubble.”


Jaime rolled his eyes. “Tyrion, you mean.”


“Him, and Lord Varys, and this goaler.”


“If any of them were hiding in the tower, we would have found them. I’ve had a small army going at it with picks and hammers. We’ve knocked through walls and ripped up floors and uncovered half a hundred secret passages.”


“And for all you know there may be half a hundred more.”



FFC-- “Two guardsmen vanished exploring a side tunnel.” “The Imp is small and cunning. He may still be in the walls. If he is, the fire will smoke him out.”


“Even if Tyrion were still hiding in the castle, he won’t be in the tower of the hand. We’ve reduced it to a shell.”


“Would that we could do the same to rest of this foul castle, after the war I mean to build a new palace beyond the river. This city is a cesspit. For half a groat I would move the court to Lannisport and rule the realm from Casterly Rock.”


“That would be an even greater folly then burning the tower of the hand.”



DwD—'For centuries Meereen and her sister cities Yunkai and Astapor had been the linchpins of the slave trade, the place where Dothraki khals and the corsairs of the Basilisk Isles sold their captives and the rest of the world came to buy. Without slaves, Meereen had little to offer traders. Copper was plentiful in Ghiscari hills, but the metal was not as valuable as it had been when bronze ruled the world. The cedars that had once grown grew no more, felled by the axes of the Old Empire or consumed by dragonfire when Ghis made war against Valyria. Once the trees had gone, the soil baked beneath the hot sun and blew away in thick red clouds. “It was the calamities that transformed my people into slavers” Galazza Galare had told her, at the Temple of the Graces. And I am the calamity that will change these slavers back into people, Dany had sworn to herself.'




Dany has a purpose and Cersei does not. Cersei would destroy a whole city for ‘half a groat’ I know she is being sarcastic, but even to say that is childish and hasty. She has no purpose, no plan for the future. All she can think of is hunting Tyrion, I mean has anyone even considered the costs she has made while hunting her brother? How long has he already been gone at this point? Would anyone in their right mind really believe there are people who can hides in walls for months on end without food or water? Cersei doesn’t care about anyone save herself and maybe Tommen, although I suspect she is only so found of him constantly because she needs him as the king. While Dany is fixated on making her people safe and ending slavery as best she can, that is her goal and her mind works in order to accomplish this thing she wants so much, and it is not a selfish goal. They could not be more different women.







2.FFC—‘ A ripe crop of pimples would teach them some humility’



FFC- “She is pretty enough, she had to admit, but most of that is youth. Even peasant girls are pretty at a certain age, when they are still fresh and innocent and unspoiled, and most of them have the same brown hair and brown eyes as she does. Only a fool would ever claim she was more beautiful than I.”



DwD—“The Undying od Qarth had told her she would be thrice betrayed. Mirri Maz Duur had been the first, Ser Jorah the second. Would Reznak be the third? The Shavepate? Daario? Or will it be someone I would never suspect, Ser Barristan or Grey Worm or Missandei?



Cersei is jealous of Margarey’s youth, beauty and popularity, constantly comparing herself to the younger woman. She never shuts up about how she is the more beautiful of the two of them, like it is the most important thing in the world. And the main source of all this jealousy is the prophecy she heard from Maggy. All she can think about and is obsessed with the fact that one day there could be a ‘more beautiful’ queen than her, nothing seems to matter except that. In fact as far as I can tell it is the driving force behind Cersei’s entire plot to frame Margarey, that she is prettier than Cersei. While in comparison when Dany thinks of the prophecies surrounding her she thinks of them in a sensible matter, weighing all her options, trying to riddle it out. Cersei just jumps on her first train of thought and rides it into hell.






3.FFC—‘The queen could feel the heat of those green flames. The pyromancers said that only three things burned hotter than their substance: dragonflame, the fires beneath the Earth, and the summer sun. Some of the ladies gasped when the first flames appeared in the windows, licking up the outer walls like long green tongues. Others cheered, and made toasts.


It is beautiful she thought, as beautiful as Joffrey, when they laid him in my arms. NO man had ever made her feel so good as she had felt when he took her nipple in his mouth to nurse.’



FFC--“No need.” Cersei felt too alive for sleep. The wildfire was cleansing her, burning away all her rage and fear, filling her with resolve. “The flames are so pretty. I want to watch them for a while.”



Here are further examples of Cersei being obsessed, I’m sorry but this makes sense if a Targaryen does it, but what is the deal with Cersei and her obsession with fire? Even Dany who has dreams of fire cleansing her and walked into a fire, never really thinks about it this way. Most normal people would be scared of Wildfyre in King’s Landing after what happened on the Blackwater.








Tyrant


1.FFC--“If these flames spread beyond the tower, you may end up burning down the castle whether you mean to or not. Wildfire is treacherous.”


“Lord Hallyne has assured me that his pyromancers can control the fire. Let all of King’s Landing see the flames. It will be a lesson to our enemies.”


“Now you sound like Aerys”



DwD—‘Beyond Meereen’s walls of many-colored brick, Dany’s rule was tenuous at best. Thousands of slaves still toiled on vast estates in the hills, growing wheat and olives, herding sheep and goats, and mining salt and copper.’



Cersei wants to rule with fire and blood much more than Dany does. Here she is only thinking of the spectacle and awe that she will inspire when she burns down the Tower of the Hand, compared to Dany’s reflection of her rule in Meereen where she is calm and thinking logically about what is going on in the region around her, not just trying to frighten everyone into submission.






2.FFC--‘My councillors. Cersei had uprooted every rose, and all those beholden to her uncle and her brothers. In their places were men whose loyalty would be to her. She had given them new styles, borrowed from the Free Cities; the queen would have no “masters” at court beside herself………Aurane Waters seemed as bored as Cersei by all this prattle about Septons. ‘



DwD—“It would be my pleasure,” said Dany, admiring the glimmer of the gold and the sheen of the green pearls on cleon’s slippers while doing her best to ignore the pinching in her toes. Grazdan, she had been forewarned, was a cousin of the Green Grace, whose support she had found invaluable. The priestess was a voice for peace, acceptance, and obedience to lawful authority. I can give her cousin a respectful hearing, whatever he desires.



Here is another example of the difference in ruling styles. Cersei wanted to kick everyone out who is not on her payroll and who is not a devious plotter like her. While Dany is bending over backwards to be accommodating to those whom she means to rule. Of course those whom she trusts are deceptive and plotters as well, but Dany does not see that because of the veil of peace and prosperity the Green Grace has worn. She has been deceived greatly by her councilors in Meereen, they have lied to her from the beginning and will continue to lie until she allows slavery again, that is all they want, all they care about, everything thing else is an act to get what they want, how could Dany know all this so early when she is being fed “a voice for peace, acceptance, and obedience to lawful authorityby the Harpy?






3.FFC--“If what you say is true, you will be rewarded.” And if you’ve lied to me, I’ll have your tongue, and your lord husband’s land and gold as well.



DwD—“Henceforth, no man of mine walks alone after dark.”


“These ones shall obey”


Daenerys pushed her hair back. “Find these cowards for me. Find them, so that I might teach the Harpy’s Sons what it means to wake the dragon.”



Simple comparison, Dany fights to keep her men safe and Cersei would kill anyone at any time, no matter how she had used them or what they had done for her, if she suspects anything she will eliminate anyone.






4.FFC—‘When Senelle appeared to fill her wine cup, the queen had to resist an urge to take her by the throat and throttle her. Do not presume to smile at me, you treacherous little bitch. You will be begging me for mercy before I’m done with you.’



DwD—“Let us say Elza. Here is our ruling. From the girls, you shall have nothing. It was Elza who taught them weaving, not you. Form you, the girls shall have a new loom, the finest coin can buy. That is for forgetting the name of the old woman.” Reznak would have summoned another tokar next, but Dany insisted that he all upon a freedman. Thereafter she alternated between the former masters and the former slaves. Many and more of the matters brought before her involved redress.



Here is a simple comparison of how they treat their ‘enemies’. Dany hates the slavers and is disgusted by most that she hears from them, and what does she do? Deny them some money and make them buy a loom, and she alternates between rich and poor people. And Cersei just wants to viciously murder everyone she thinks may have spoken against her at some point. A good queen is more relaxed than this woman, she always has her finger on the trigger.






5. FFC—‘Cersei thought of all the King’s Hands that she had known through the years: Owen Merryweather, Jon Connington, Qarlton Chelsted, Jon Arryn, Eddard Stark, her brother Tyrion. And her father, Lord Tywin Lannister, her father most of all. All of them are burning now, she told herself, savoring the thought. They are dead and burning, every one, with all their plots and schemes and betrayals. It is my day now. It is my castle and my kingdom.’



DwD—“Your grace is kind to this one.” Missandei slipped under the sheets. “He was a good brother.”


Dany wrapped her arms about the girl, “Tell me of him.”


“He taught me how to climb a tree when we were little. He could catch a fish with his hands. Once I found him sleeping in our garden with a hundred butterflies crawling over him. He looked so beautiful that morning, this one… I mean, I loved him.”


“As he loved you.” Dany stroked the girl’s hair. “Say the word, my sweet, and I will send you form this awful place. I will find a ship somehow and send you home. To Naath.”


“I would sooner stay with you. On Naath I’d be afraid. What if the slavers came again? I feel safe when I am with you.”



A comparison of Dany and Cersei remembering the dead and what they meant to them. All Cersei can think of is how everything affects her and how she can rule alone at last. Dany has no selfish thoughts, she cares deeply about her men who have died and wished to console those who have lost loved ones.






6. FFC—‘She dreamt she sat the iron throne, high above them all.


The courtiers were brightly colored mice below. Great lords and proud ladies knelt before her. Bold young knights laid their swords at her feet and pleaded for her favors, and the queen smiled down at them. Until the dwarf appeared as if from nowhere, pointing at her and howling with laughter. The lords and ladies began to chuckle too, hiding their smiles behind their hands. Only then did the queen realize she was naked.



DwD—“What is it? She cried, as Irri shook her gently by the shoulder. It was the black of night outside. Something is wrong, she knew at once. “is it Daario? What’s happened?” In her dream they had been man and wife, simple folk who lived a simple life in a tall stone house with a red door. In her dream he had been kissing her all over—her mouth, her neck, her breasts.’



This is what Cersei dreams about, what she desires above all, being the undisputed empress of the world with everyone worshiping her. She is fixated on the fact that Tyrion will ruin it all for her. Compared to a dream of Dany’s where she dreaming of what she wants, home, happiness and sex, not to be adored and worshiped, no delusions of grandeur.









Sociopathic


She tortures and abuses her dwarf little brother, pinching his privates until he screams and cries when he has just been born. Just like Viserys did to Dany. Without remorse for hurting her own family.



1.FFC--“You have wasted my time and slain an innocent man. I should have your heads off.” But if she did, the next man might hesitate and let the imp slip the net. She would pile dead dwarfs ten feet high before she let that happen.



DwD—‘They had numbered one hundred sixty-three, a child every mile, nailed to every mile posts with one arm outstretched to point her way. After Meereen had fallen, Dany had nailed up a like number of Great Masters.’



Here is a perfect example, Dany follows an ‘eye for an eye’. Which not everyone agrees with to be sure, however I think it is better than Cersei’s style, “eye for a village’. She does not care in the least how many people/dwarves she kills to get to Tyrion. She makes threats, lies, pays for one dead dwarf after another and none of them are the right man. She doesn’t want to harm the bounty hunters for fear that more will not come. She has no value on the lives of these humans, who are totally and perfectly innocent of being Tyrion.








Summary


Dany and Cersei are very different women. Cersei seems to follow after Dany's father in many ways, much more so than Dany ever could. Dany is not 'mad' in any sense of the word. She does let anger drive her sometimes, but it is always in pursuit of keeping those weaker than her, safe. Cersei is not much concerned with the welfare of the citizens of Westeros, much and more of her choices are selfishly driven. I think overall she is borderline 'mad'. Possibly, after what happened to her on the Walk of Shame, she will go totally bonkers. We have yet to find out. But it is my opinion that despite what many say, Dany shows no signs of madness, despite her controversial last chapter where she is ill, not mad. I think she is headed to a good place now in her storyline, on her way to 'bend the dothraki to her will' like int he 1993 outline. And I do not think we will be seeing any psychotic fire and blood conquering and mass-executions out of her that many anticipate. Dany is a just and well-balanced person, who in the end, will ultimately be considered a hero and not a villain, unlike Cersei, who is possibly the craziest person in the series.


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A very nice essay. Cersei appears almost to be sexually aroused as she watches the wildfire burn the Tower, as Aerys was, when he burned people.

I wonder if Cersei will start burning people in wildfire, if she returns to power.

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Dany and Cersei Parallels/Madness

Very nice job Suzanna!!

Dany is not mad, not in any way, she is not her father, nor is she Aerion Brightflame. Cersei, on the other hand, is a paranoid, delusional, obsessed, ruthless, sociopathic Tyrant and downright crazy on many many occasions. She shares many traits with Aerys and Viserys, but hardly shares anything with Dany. The funny thing is that other Targaryens have seemed mad, or have actually been mad for thinking or doing things that seemed crazy at the time, but then when Dany tried them they worked perfectly. If she had walked into that pyre after sacrificing a human and a horse and she had burnt to a crisp, then obviously she would fall right into the category of mad, obsessed Targaryen, who died trying to live like a god. Of course that is not what happened, Dany was correct about the pyre and hatching the dragons, so what would have been ‘mad’ for someone else to try looks absolutely genius in her hands

Well said. I think Cersei's madness and her egomanical nature are GRRM's ways of telling us that anyone can have this affliction. It's just not the Targaryen's. For a long time, until the World Book really, there was always speculation that Cersei was the Mad King's Daughter and that's why she was unhinged. But we know now that there is not way for that to be true. So madness is not a definitive trait of JUST the Targaryens. Just as their are sane Targs (Jaehaerys and Queen Alysanne come to mind) there can be insane non-Targs, like Cersei who go the lion's share (if you'll pardon the pun) of Lannister madness.

As for the whole "brilliance or madness" idea, I'll let Captain Jack Sparrow speak for me: https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/c0/2e/17/c02e174e2ed98fa046462f14a32a785b.jpg

Both of these situations are forced marriages that many oppose, this is a good example of what Dany thinks of beforehand; her duty and her people. And what Cersei thinks of, ‘Who all and how many people are trying to poison me and my son right now? And where are they hiding?’

Yes, lesson the first in Dany/Cersei contrasts, one actually care for people other than herself. Cersei hides behind Tommen and how she is fearful for HIM, but I think it's far more about herself and how she fears that Tyrion will come for her.

Cersei is myopically paranoid. Tyrion is coming for HER, Jaime is out to get HER, all of Westeros is against HER. Just like everything else Cersei, it all revolves around her, damn the other people.

2. FFC--“Fool. No one who wears a crown is ever safe.” She looked about the hall. Mace Tyrell laughed amongst his knights. Lord Redwyne and Rowan were talking furtively. Ser Kevan sat brooding over his wine at the back of the hall, whilst Lancel whispered something to a septon. Senelle was moving down the table, filling the cups of the bride’s cousins with wine as red as blood. Grand Maester Pycelle had fallen asleep. There is no one I can rely upon, not even Jaime, she realized grimly. I will need to sweep them all away and surround the king with mine own people.

DwD—“No one ever kept me safe when I was little. Well, Ser Willem did, but then he died, and Viserys…. I want to protect you but…It is so hard. To be strong. I don’t always know what I should do. I must know, though, I am they have. I am the queen…the… the ….”

“…mother,” Missandei whispered

“Mother to dragons.” Dany shivered.

“No. Mother to us all. “Missandei hugged her tighter.

This quote also shows that Dany is much more comfortable opening up to people about her fears than Cersei is.

Not only is Cersei myopically paranoid, she's also insulated by choice. Jaime keeps trying to reach out to her in AFFC only for his pleas to fall on deaf ears and Cersei turn more and more inward. Dany doesn't open up often but she does when she feels genuinally comfortable around the person to whom she instill trust--Missandei in the above quote and Jorah in ASOS on the boat.

Also what is interesting about these two quotes is that Cersei's concerns are not about the people but her own personal power. Again, myopic. Singularly focused on one thing...Cersei.

3.FFC—‘Cersei refused Mace Tyrell as well, and later Lancel. The others took the hint, and no one else approached her. Our fast friends and loyal lords. She could not even trust the westermen, her father’s sworn swords and bannermen. Not if her own uncle was conspiring with her enemies…. ‘

DwD-“They are very sweet, the both of them,” Dany assured her. “Qezza sings for me sometimes….

“They are of my blood,” the Green Grace said, as Qezza filled her cup with a dark red wine. “it is good to know they have pleased Your Radiance. I hope I may do likewise.”

Cersei, like her father before her, would have killed those child hostages the moment she realized it could get her something she wanted. She cares very little about any other children other than her own, and even then she cares about her children as an extension of herself.

Dany, OTOH, has no natural children but yet cares for those who have chosen her as a mother be they dragon or slave.

I compare these two as what the girls do in time of much need. Cersei reached out to her brother and asks him to rule the kingdom beside her, he has been in love with her his whole life, yet by now even he knows she is a monster. He wont even consider her offer, he rejects her.

Cersei uses Jaime. He is another means to an end. She doesn't actually want to marry him, just have Jaime be her hand and lover while taking a back seat so that she might be the real power in the relationship. This is something Jaime comes to understand all to well. He's always been at her beck and call, doing whatever she asked or demanded--like joining the KG. There's is an abusive relationship of a whole different flavor.

Dany OTOH marries Hizzy and actually lets him rule. In fact, we might go so far as to say that she gives up too much power when she marries, due in large part to her depression. But she acknowledges that political marriages do work and are the norm and to be expected. She tries to make it work for the sake of peace, letting Hizzy open the pits, for example. Cersei never wants another man to rule her or rule beside her. Not even her beloved Jaime.

Dany really has no quotes to compare to this. She is not delusional ever. She does have a time of sickness in her last chapter where she thinks of many things going on and talks to herself a bit.

Hmmm. Maybe. I don't think she's delusional ever. But she does begin a very interesting conversation with three people out on the Dothraki Sea. Viserys and Quaithe are both dreams but with Jorah, it feels like he is right behind her to the point that she wishes she could touch him and is scared to turn around and face the fact that the isn't really there.

It doesn't mean that she's delusional like Cersie, but that they are both haunted by something in the past. But where Cersei lets that memory of Maggy haunt her and follower her around, Dany is able to keep walking. One foot in front of the other, looking back every so often to see how far she's come. Cersei can't do that. If she turns around, metaphorically speaking of course, she'll run into the paranoia that follows her.

Cersei is nuts on a daily basis,

I laughed way too hard at this.

Obsessed

Yeah I agree that Dany doesn't have any obsessive tendencies, at least not the extent that Cersei does. You could make an argument that Dany is obsessed with finding home, but it's a weak argument given that she actually gives up that dream to stay in rule in Meereen until she feels like she can leave it behind.

2.FFC—‘ A ripe crop of pimples would teach them some humility’

FFC- “She is pretty enough, she had to admit, but most of that is youth. Even peasant girls are pretty at a certain age, when they are still fresh and innocent and unspoiled, and most of them have the same brown hair and brown eyes as she does. Only a fool would ever claim she was more beautiful than I.”

Lord. Get over yourself, Cersei.

While in comparison when Dany thinks of the prophecies surrounding her she thinks of them in a sensible matter, weighing all her options, trying to riddle it out. Cersei just jumps on her first train of thought and rides it into hell.

It's actually a lesson everyone in ASOIAF could learn: what you think about a prophecy, chances are it's wrong. Dany at least can ADMIT that she might be mistaken about the three betrayals. She begins to seriously question if Jorah was one because of BBP and how that one played out. She starts to think that maybe she got in wrong in the first place.

Cersei has made up her mind and that is just freaking that. There will be no changing it until the real younger and more beautiful queen is riding over KL's to take the IT. (you know...if Cersei hasn't burnt it to the ground...which she probably will.

Here are further examples of Cersei being obsessed, I’m sorry but this makes sense if a Targaryen does it, but what is the deal with Cersei and her obsession with fire? Even Dany who has dreams of fire cleansing her and walked into a fire, never really thinks about it this way. Most normal people would be scared of Wildfyre in King’s Landing after what happened on the Blackwater.

Dany has a much more mild reaction to heat and the fire and warmth that fills her--be it a warm bath of Drogon when she mounts him for the first time. This last example of Drogon is spoken of in sexual terms when Dany mounts him, but it's not what Dany focuses on . That's the big difference. Cersei becomes obsessed with the sexual arousal type of feelings she's feeling when faced with the fire. Dany find the flying and freedom aspect more vital.

Cersei wants to rule with fire and blood much more than Dany does. Here she is only thinking of the spectacle and awe that she will inspire when she burns down the Tower of the Hand, compared to Dany’s reflection of her rule in Meereen where she is calm and thinking logically about what is going on in the region around her, not just trying to frighten everyone into submission.

I think the big difference is this: while they both might go Fire and Blood on KL and Meereen respectively, the difference is that Cersei will revel in the flames, Dany will stop after it is done and replant and rebuild. Cersei only want to tear down, Dany wants to tear down and then create a new.

Ceresi is the real destructive force in Westeros. Pure destruction with no after thought for creation. I see a lot of people compare Dany to Shiva, in Hindu tradition who is "the Destroyer." But I think what they miss is that another name for him, IIRC, is "The Transformer." From his destruction comes a new age, a new creation. Nothing comes from what Cersei destroys except destruction.

DwD—“Let us say Elza. Here is our ruling. From the girls, you shall have nothing. It was Elza who taught them weaving, not you. Form you, the girls shall have a new loom, the finest coin can buy. That is for forgetting the name of the old woman.” Reznak would have summoned another tokar next, but Dany insisted that he all upon a freedman. Thereafter she alternated between the former masters and the former slaves. Many and more of the matters brought before her involved redress.

Forgive me but....I really love Daenerys Targaryen, okay?

I had to do that

Cersei doesn't care one iota about those below her except for what they can give her. Dany actually cares. It's that simple.

They are dead and burning, every one, with all their plots and schemes and betrayals. It is my day now. It is my castle and my kingdom.’

It goes hand in hand with Cersei thinking that Tommen has to wait for his turn to rule because Cersei had to wait and it's her time now. She also thinks that when people look back to this time, they will only remember Tywin Lannister as the man who sired Cersei, nothing more, because Cersei is the real Lannister they will all remember.

Yeah, but what will they remember Cersei? Possibly that you destroyed KL?

She tortures and abuses her dwarf little brother, pinching his privates until he screams and cries when he has just been born. Just like Viserys did to Dany. Without remorse for hurting her own family.

Cersei and Viserys both blame their little sibling for the death of their mother.

If she wins her trial--and I think she will--she'll become like the unholy monster than won the trial for her. And her need to keep her power will only grow. I suspect she'll burn people in wildfire while drinking cups of wine.

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Actually, I should have commented on Dany's behaviour in her last chapter. I think she is delusional, in part. She keeps slipping in and out of lucidity. She thinks she can walk to Meereen, which is hundreds of miles away; she giggles to her herself; she hallucinates about Jorah, and talks to herself. But, I attribute that to hunger, sunstroke, dehydration, and the poison berries, rather than mental illness. By the end, she seems quite clear-headed

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Actually, I should have commented on Dany's behaviour in her last chapter. I think she is delusional, in part. She keeps slipping in and out of lucidity. She thinks she can walk to Meereen, which is hundreds of miles away; she giggles to her herself; she hallucinates about Jorah, and talks to herself. But, I attribute that to hunger, sunstroke, dehydration, and the poison berries, rather than mental illness. By the end, she seems quite clear-headed

Not to mention incredible emotional trauma. Cersei doesn't have such excuses. She's not hungry (in fact she eats SO MUCH FOOD in AFFC), she's not undergoing sunstroke (it's actually slowly becoming winter in FL), she's drinking wine most of the time but she has the option of water if she wanted it, and she's obviously not eating poison berries.

As for the Jorah bit, Dany does "hallucinate" that he is behind her, but she knows that he's not. She can't turn around because she knows that he won't be there,when Dany falls down, she only hopes that Jorah will pick her up, she doesn't actually expect him to. She's not believing that he is really there. I think we can probably revisit this when we get to next week and the WoS and Dany's Meereen walk.

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Dany and Cersei Parallels/Madness

Great job! :thumbsup:

Cersei grew up with the best of everything, she was a rich, beautiful, well connected Lady from one of Westeros most prominent families. She had everything one would think of to have a happy and successful life and yet, she has not had either. Now, some of her misfortunes have not been her fault (Robert) but most have. She's caused most of the misery (and that of others) because of her almost inhuman selfishness. Her self-obsession can't allow her to be happy and I think this is one of the main reasons for her spiraling mental health.

You contrast that with Dany who lost most of her family before she was even born, grew up with an abusive older brother, running from city to city. Then after she finds some happiness with her new husband, she once again loses her family when he and her unborn child die. She's force to become a leader at 14 and goes on to start a revolution. Even for all her woes and her family history of mental illness, Dany is surprisingly sane and logical.

Looking at the two of them you can see that sometimes no matter how many advantages (or disadvantages) you have in life you can still turn out to be crazy, because that is who you were meant to be.

Cersei and Viserys both blame their little sibling for the death of their mother.

And it's such a hateful thing to do. It's a malicious and selfish thing because they never considered that both Dany and Tyrion ALSO lost their mother. No, its about THEIR pain, screw everyone else.

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:) Thx guys.



I still have a lot of catching up to do, still need to read SeanF's last essay, I've been so busy this last week. I'be been interviewing for a new job in Philly (exited/nervous). So it's been taking up a lot of time. Ill get to it tomorrow probably :)



This re-read is awesome!


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A very nice essay. Cersei appears almost to be sexually aroused as she watches the wildfire burn the Tower, as Aerys was, when he burned people.

I wonder if Cersei will start burning people in wildfire, if she returns to power.

Oh I am going to go ahead and take the Over on the over under here. Like way over, like Jaime, but inverted. At least nobody will be cold in KL come the full onset of winter. Maybe do it to keep people warm, she is a considerate queen, she has a lot of love to give.

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Dany and Cersei Parallels/Madness

I do hope this essay will not cause too much controversy. Dany is not mad, not in any way, she is not her father, nor is she Aerion Brightflame. Cersei, on the other hand, is a paranoid, delusional, obsessed, ruthless, sociopathic Tyrant and downright crazy on many many occasions. She shares many traits with Aerys and Viserys, but hardly shares anything with Dany. The funny thing is that other Targaryens have seemed mad, or have actually been mad for thinking or doing things that seemed crazy at the time, but then when Dany tried them they worked perfectly. If she had walked into that pyre after sacrificing a human and a horse and she had burnt to a crisp, then obviously she would fall right into the category of mad, obsessed Targaryen, who died trying to live like a god. Of course that is not what happened, Dany was correct about the pyre and hatching the dragons, so what would have been ‘mad’ for someone else to try looks absolutely genius in her hands.

I have compared and contrasted Dany and Cersei in the madness categories which seemed to plagues Aerys the most (he will be our ‘Madness’ gauge) mostly from FFC and DwD, Cersei has far less chapters, but I thought it only fair to judge her from her own POV instead of how others saw her (except on one or two special occasions where she was especially hurtful to others with zero remorse). I have separated Cersei’s behavior into categories, and will also show similar situations from Dany and how there could not be two more different rulers. Of course there are a ton more comparisons and quotes I could analyze, but this paper can only be so long. Please everyone add more comparisons to the discussion :)

Paranoid

1.FFC--On Tommens wedding day she explains all the precautions to prevent him being poisoned, which are extensive, then says “Tyrion will not kill the same way twice. He is too cunning for that. He could be under the floor even now, listening to every word we say and making plans to open Tommen’s throat.”

DwD—“My people are bleeding, Dying. A queen belongs not to herself, but to the realm. Marriage or carnage, those are my choices. A wedding or a war.”

Both of these situations are forced marriages that many oppose, this is a good example of what Dany thinks of beforehand; her duty and her people. And what Cersei thinks of, ‘Who all and how many people are trying to poison me and my son right now? And where are they hiding?’

2. FFC--“Fool. No one who wears a crown is ever safe.” She looked about the hall. Mace Tyrell laughed amongst his knights. Lord Redwyne and Rowan were talking furtively. Ser Kevan sat brooding over his wine at the back of the hall, whilst Lancel whispered something to a septon. Senelle was moving down the table, filling the cups of the bride’s cousins with wine as red as blood. Grand Maester Pycelle had fallen asleep. There is no one I can rely upon, not even Jaime, she realized grimly. I will need to sweep them all away and surround the king with mine own people.

DwD—“No one ever kept me safe when I was little. Well, Ser Willem did, but then he died, and Viserys…. I want to protect you but…It is so hard. To be strong. I don’t always know what I should do. I must know, though, I am they have. I am the queen…the… the ….”

“…mother,” Missandei whispered

“Mother to dragons.” Dany shivered.

“No. Mother to us all. “Missandei hugged her tighter.

Comparing their roles as Queen, their devotion to their people and to keeping their realm safe and in order. Cersei spends all of her time complaining about how inept everyone is, she sees schemes and plots everywhere just as Aerys did. While Dany’s main concern is keeping her people safe, not making promises she cannot keep, accepting that she is not perfect, that she can make mistakes, but that even if she does she still has to be strong for them. Cersei just wants to kill everyone who annoys her, like flies in a lantern.

3.FFC—‘Cersei refused Mace Tyrell as well, and later Lancel. The others took the hint, and no one else approached her. Our fast friends and loyal lords. She could not even trust the westermen, her father’s sworn swords and bannermen. Not if her own uncle was conspiring with her enemies…. ‘

DwD-“They are very sweet, the both of them,” Dany assured her. “Qezza sings for me sometimes….

“They are of my blood,” the Green Grace said, as Qezza filled her cup with a dark red wine. “it is good to know they have pleased Your Radiance. I hope I may do likewise.”

Cersei does not trust anyone, even her council and staunchest supporters, Dany treats her enemies with so much respect it may not be good for her. Sure you can fault Dany for this, but bottom line is that anyone she comes in contact with she gives them the benefit of the doubt, want there to be peace, strives to please everyone as much as she can. While Cersei tries to accommodate no one, she does not care about making anyones lives easier or if anyone is even mildly happy, in short she is a very unfit ruler, simply because she cares nothing about the court, the small folk, nobody.

Delusional

1. FFC-“Who can say what that vile dwarf may have told, or to whom? Uncle Kevan is the least of it. The High Septon…Tyrion raised him to the crown, when the fat one died. He may know as well. You must be Tommen’s hand. I do not trust Mace Tyrell. What if he had a hand in Father’s death? He may have been conspiring with Tyrion. The imp could be on his way to Highgarden…Be my hand and we’ll rule the seven kingdoms together, like a king and queen.”

DwD—‘She would sooner have returned to Meereen on dragon’s wings, to be sure. But that was a desire Drogon did not seem to share.

The dragonlords of old Valyria had controlled their mounts with binding spells and sorcerous horns. Daenerys made do with a word and a whip.’

I compare these two as what the girls do in time of much need. Cersei reached out to her brother and asks him to rule the kingdom beside her, he has been in love with her his whole life, yet by now even he knows she is a monster. He wont even consider her offer, he rejects her. And it was quite crazy of her to even ask this of him considering everything involving the rumors of the two of them and the legitimacy of Tommen’s claim to the throne. Anyway when she is alone and abandoned this is what she does. When Dany is alone and has fled Meereen due to none of her plans working out, and the Ghiscari slavers getting everything they wanted, she tries to better herself. She builds a relationship with her dragon ‘like the old dragonlords of Valyria’ because she knows this is how she will win, this is how she will be able to do what is right. No one would take her seriously and this is how she will make them. When Dany is desperate she reaches out for something smart, something that will and can help her, living up to her proud Valyrian dragonlord heritage. Cersei in a desperate situation does not think of what would be best or what will actually help her, she just goes with the first thought and never even considers stepping back. And this is all born from her paranoia, she has to make every decision so rapidly because she feels if she doesn’t then Mace Tyrell (or whoever) will make a choice for her and that would be the worst thing ever, if she actually listened to someone else’s council.

2. FFC--Cersei thinks Tommen chokes at his wedding, but it’s just a cough, she goes in the hall to cry…”Your grace?” Said a voice behind her. “Do I intrude?”

It was a woman’s voice, flavored with accents of the east. For an instant she feared that Maggy the Frog was speaking to her from the grave.’

Dany really has no quotes to compare to this. She is not delusional ever. She does have a time of sickness in her last chapter where she thinks of many things going on and talks to herself a bit. But all can agree that she is dehydrated, starved, worn out, having a miscarriage and eating poisonous berries all at the same time. There is nothing odd about her behaviour, in fact even though all this is happening to her she keeps a rather clear mind throughout. Cersei is nuts on a daily basis, she has delusions, psychotic episodes, sees shadows and enemies over every shoulder, Dany has many enemies as well, but she never takes it to the paranoid levels that Cersei does.

Obsessed

1.FFC--“Do you still mean to go ahead and burn the Tower of the Hand?”

“After the Feast.” It was the only part of the days festivities that Cersei thought she might enjoy. “Our lord father was murdered in that tower. I cannot bear to look at it. If the gods are good, the fire may smoke a few rats from the rubble.”

Jaime rolled his eyes. “Tyrion, you mean.”

“Him, and Lord Varys, and this goaler.”

“If any of them were hiding in the tower, we would have found them. I’ve had a small army going at it with picks and hammers. We’ve knocked through walls and ripped up floors and uncovered half a hundred secret passages.”

“And for all you know there may be half a hundred more.”

FFC-- “Two guardsmen vanished exploring a side tunnel.” “The Imp is small and cunning. He may still be in the walls. If he is, the fire will smoke him out.”

“Even if Tyrion were still hiding in the castle, he won’t be in the tower of the hand. We’ve reduced it to a shell.”

“Would that we could do the same to rest of this foul castle, after the war I mean to build a new palace beyond the river. This city is a cesspit. For half a groat I would move the court to Lannisport and rule the realm from Casterly Rock.”

“That would be an even greater folly then burning the tower of the hand.”

DwD—'For centuries Meereen and her sister cities Yunkai and Astapor had been the linchpins of the slave trade, the place where Dothraki khals and the corsairs of the Basilisk Isles sold their captives and the rest of the world came to buy. Without slaves, Meereen had little to offer traders. Copper was plentiful in Ghiscari hills, but the metal was not as valuable as it had been when bronze ruled the world. The cedars that had once grown grew no more, felled by the axes of the Old Empire or consumed by dragonfire when Ghis made war against Valyria. Once the trees had gone, the soil baked beneath the hot sun and blew away in thick red clouds. “It was the calamities that transformed my people into slavers” Galazza Galare had told her, at the Temple of the Graces. And I am the calamity that will change these slavers back into people, Dany had sworn to herself.'

Dany has a purpose and Cersei does not. Cersei would destroy a whole city for ‘half a groat’ I know she is being sarcastic, but even to say that is childish and hasty. She has no purpose, no plan for the future. All she can think of is hunting Tyrion, I mean has anyone even considered the costs she has made while hunting her brother? How long has he already been gone at this point? Would anyone in their right mind really believe there are people who can hides in walls for months on end without food or water? Cersei doesn’t care about anyone save herself and maybe Tommen, although I suspect she is only so found of him constantly because she needs him as the king. While Dany is fixated on making her people safe and ending slavery as best she can, that is her goal and her mind works in order to accomplish this thing she wants so much, and it is not a selfish goal. They could not be more different women.

2.FFC—‘ A ripe crop of pimples would teach them some humility’

FFC- “She is pretty enough, she had to admit, but most of that is youth. Even peasant girls are pretty at a certain age, when they are still fresh and innocent and unspoiled, and most of them have the same brown hair and brown eyes as she does. Only a fool would ever claim she was more beautiful than I.”

DwD—“The Undying od Qarth had told her she would be thrice betrayed. Mirri Maz Duur had been the first, Ser Jorah the second. Would Reznak be the third? The Shavepate? Daario? Or will it be someone I would never suspect, Ser Barristan or Grey Worm or Missandei?

Cersei is jealous of Margarey’s youth, beauty and popularity, constantly comparing herself to the younger woman. She never shuts up about how she is the more beautiful of the two of them, like it is the most important thing in the world. And the main source of all this jealousy is the prophecy she heard from Maggy. All she can think about and is obsessed with the fact that one day there could be a ‘more beautiful’ queen than her, nothing seems to matter except that. In fact as far as I can tell it is the driving force behind Cersei’s entire plot to frame Margarey, that she is prettier than Cersei. While in comparison when Dany thinks of the prophecies surrounding her she thinks of them in a sensible matter, weighing all her options, trying to riddle it out. Cersei just jumps on her first train of thought and rides it into hell.

3.FFC—‘The queen could feel the heat of those green flames. The pyromancers said that only three things burned hotter than their substance: dragonflame, the fires beneath the Earth, and the summer sun. Some of the ladies gasped when the first flames appeared in the windows, licking up the outer walls like long green tongues. Others cheered, and made toasts.

It is beautiful she thought, as beautiful as Joffrey, when they laid him in my arms. NO man had ever made her feel so good as she had felt when he took her nipple in his mouth to nurse.’

FFC--“No need.” Cersei felt too alive for sleep. The wildfire was cleansing her, burning away all her rage and fear, filling her with resolve. “The flames are so pretty. I want to watch them for a while.”

Here are further examples of Cersei being obsessed, I’m sorry but this makes sense if a Targaryen does it, but what is the deal with Cersei and her obsession with fire? Even Dany who has dreams of fire cleansing her and walked into a fire, never really thinks about it this way. Most normal people would be scared of Wildfyre in King’s Landing after what happened on the Blackwater.

Tyrant

1.FFC--“If these flames spread beyond the tower, you may end up burning down the castle whether you mean to or not. Wildfire is treacherous.”

“Lord Hallyne has assured me that his pyromancers can control the fire. Let all of King’s Landing see the flames. It will be a lesson to our enemies.”

“Now you sound like Aerys”

DwD—‘Beyond Meereen’s walls of many-colored brick, Dany’s rule was tenuous at best. Thousands of slaves still toiled on vast estates in the hills, growing wheat and olives, herding sheep and goats, and mining salt and copper.’

Cersei wants to rule with fire and blood much more than Dany does. Here she is only thinking of the spectacle and awe that she will inspire when she burns down the Tower of the Hand, compared to Dany’s reflection of her rule in Meereen where she is calm and thinking logically about what is going on in the region around her, not just trying to frighten everyone into submission.

2.FFC--‘My councillors. Cersei had uprooted every rose, and all those beholden to her uncle and her brothers. In their places were men whose loyalty would be to her. She had given them new styles, borrowed from the Free Cities; the queen would have no “masters” at court beside herself………Aurane Waters seemed as bored as Cersei by all this prattle about Septons. ‘

DwD—“It would be my pleasure,” said Dany, admiring the glimmer of the gold and the sheen of the green pearls on cleon’s slippers while doing her best to ignore the pinching in her toes. Grazdan, she had been forewarned, was a cousin of the Green Grace, whose support she had found invaluable. The priestess was a voice for peace, acceptance, and obedience to lawful authority. I can give her cousin a respectful hearing, whatever he desires.

Here is another example of the difference in ruling styles. Cersei wanted to kick everyone out who is not on her payroll and who is not a devious plotter like her. While Dany is bending over backwards to be accommodating to those whom she means to rule. Of course those whom she trusts are deceptive and plotters as well, but Dany does not see that because of the veil of peace and prosperity the Green Grace has worn. She has been deceived greatly by her councilors in Meereen, they have lied to her from the beginning and will continue to lie until she allows slavery again, that is all they want, all they care about, everything thing else is an act to get what they want, how could Dany know all this so early when she is being fed “a voice for peace, acceptance, and obedience to lawful authorityby the Harpy?

3.FFC--“If what you say is true, you will be rewarded.” And if you’ve lied to me, I’ll have your tongue, and your lord husband’s land and gold as well.

DwD—“Henceforth, no man of mine walks alone after dark.”

“These ones shall obey”

Daenerys pushed her hair back. “Find these cowards for me. Find them, so that I might teach the Harpy’s Sons what it means to wake the dragon.”

Simple comparison, Dany fights to keep her men safe and Cersei would kill anyone at any time, no matter how she had used them or what they had done for her, if she suspects anything she will eliminate anyone.

4.FFC—‘When Senelle appeared to fill her wine cup, the queen had to resist an urge to take her by the throat and throttle her. Do not presume to smile at me, you treacherous little bitch. You will be begging me for mercy before I’m done with you.’

DwD—“Let us say Elza. Here is our ruling. From the girls, you shall have nothing. It was Elza who taught them weaving, not you. Form you, the girls shall have a new loom, the finest coin can buy. That is for forgetting the name of the old woman.” Reznak would have summoned another tokar next, but Dany insisted that he all upon a freedman. Thereafter she alternated between the former masters and the former slaves. Many and more of the matters brought before her involved redress.

Here is a simple comparison of how they treat their ‘enemies’. Dany hates the slavers and is disgusted by most that she hears from them, and what does she do? Deny them some money and make them buy a loom, and she alternates between rich and poor people. And Cersei just wants to viciously murder everyone she thinks may have spoken against her at some point. A good queen is more relaxed than this woman, she always has her finger on the trigger.

5. FFC—‘Cersei thought of all the King’s Hands that she had known through the years: Owen Merryweather, Jon Connington, Qarlton Chelsted, Jon Arryn, Eddard Stark, her brother Tyrion. And her father, Lord Tywin Lannister, her father most of all. All of them are burning now, she told herself, savoring the thought. They are dead and burning, every one, with all their plots and schemes and betrayals. It is my day now. It is my castle and my kingdom.’

DwD—“Your grace is kind to this one.” Missandei slipped under the sheets. “He was a good brother.”

Dany wrapped her arms about the girl, “Tell me of him.”

“He taught me how to climb a tree when we were little. He could catch a fish with his hands. Once I found him sleeping in our garden with a hundred butterflies crawling over him. He looked so beautiful that morning, this one… I mean, I loved him.”

“As he loved you.” Dany stroked the girl’s hair. “Say the word, my sweet, and I will send you form this awful place. I will find a ship somehow and send you home. To Naath.”

“I would sooner stay with you. On Naath I’d be afraid. What if the slavers came again? I feel safe when I am with you.”

A comparison of Dany and Cersei remembering the dead and what they meant to them. All Cersei can think of is how everything affects her and how she can rule alone at last. Dany has no selfish thoughts, she cares deeply about her men who have died and wished to console those who have lost loved ones.

6. FFC—‘She dreamt she sat the iron throne, high above them all.

The courtiers were brightly colored mice below. Great lords and proud ladies knelt before her. Bold young knights laid their swords at her feet and pleaded for her favors, and the queen smiled down at them. Until the dwarf appeared as if from nowhere, pointing at her and howling with laughter. The lords and ladies began to chuckle too, hiding their smiles behind their hands. Only then did the queen realize she was naked.

DwD—“What is it? She cried, as Irri shook her gently by the shoulder. It was the black of night outside. Something is wrong, she knew at once. “is it Daario? What’s happened?” In her dream they had been man and wife, simple folk who lived a simple life in a tall stone house with a red door. In her dream he had been kissing her all over—her mouth, her neck, her breasts.’

This is what Cersei dreams about, what she desires above all, being the undisputed empress of the world with everyone worshiping her. She is fixated on the fact that Tyrion will ruin it all for her. Compared to a dream of Dany’s where she dreaming of what she wants, home, happiness and sex, not to be adored and worshiped, no delusions of grandeur.

Sociopathic

She tortures and abuses her dwarf little brother, pinching his privates until he screams and cries when he has just been born. Just like Viserys did to Dany. Without remorse for hurting her own family.

1.FFC--“You have wasted my time and slain an innocent man. I should have your heads off.” But if she did, the next man might hesitate and let the imp slip the net. She would pile dead dwarfs ten feet high before she let that happen.

DwD—‘They had numbered one hundred sixty-three, a child every mile, nailed to every mile posts with one arm outstretched to point her way. After Meereen had fallen, Dany had nailed up a like number of Great Masters.’

Here is a perfect example, Dany follows an ‘eye for an eye’. Which not everyone agrees with to be sure, however I think it is better than Cersei’s style, “eye for a village’. She does not care in the least how many people/dwarves she kills to get to Tyrion. She makes threats, lies, pays for one dead dwarf after another and none of them are the right man. She doesn’t want to harm the bounty hunters for fear that more will not come. She has no value on the lives of these humans, who are totally and perfectly innocent of being Tyrion.

Summary

Dany and Cersei are very different women. Cersei seems to follow after Dany's father in many ways, much more so than Dany ever could. Dany is not 'mad' in any sense of the word. She does let anger drive her sometimes, but it is always in pursuit of keeping those weaker than her, safe. Cersei is not much concerned with the welfare of the citizens of Westeros, much and more of her choices are selfishly driven. I think overall she is borderline 'mad'. Possibly, after what happened to her on the Walk of Shame, she will go totally bonkers. We have yet to find out. But it is my opinion that despite what many say, Dany shows no signs of madness, despite her controversial last chapter where she is ill, not mad. I think she is headed to a good place now in her storyline, on her way to 'bend the dothraki to her will' like int he 1993 outline. And I do not think we will be seeing any psychotic fire and blood conquering and mass-executions out of her that many anticipate. Dany is a just and well-balanced person, who in the end, will ultimately be considered a hero and not a villain, unlike Cersei, who is possibly the craziest person in the series.

Oh Suzy I am afraid I have a bone to pick with your title, with post Westeros information conformation, I am afraid that using Dany in any title is no longer appropriate. What your title should say is. The parallel journeys of "Queen Daenerys Stormborn Targaryen first of her name, Queen of the Andals, the Rhoynar, and of the First Men, Dragon Queen of Meereen, Khaleesi of the Great Grass Sea, Princess of Dragonstone, Mother of Dragons, Breaker of Chains, The Unburnt, Mhysa, The Silver Lady, The Thunder from Down Under, The Burning Blade, She Who Greets With Fire, Slavers Bane, The Foe Hammer of the Author, The Doom of the Others, Mother of Fire and Light, The Moon of Life, The Princess that was Promised, The Waker of Dragons, Slayer of Lies, The Lady of Light, The Red Comet, Princess Hotness, The Knight Kings wet dream (Get It? Cause he is going to melt), The Eye Candy of Lord Friend Zone, The Chick who digs the Golden Tooth (Why? No idea, it is really weird though), etc... and The Usurpers Queen Cersie I live lies Lannister.

It may seem a bit long for a title, but the True Queen must be given her proper due.

Obsessed 1.

Just something to add there is that in the World Book Aerys also had the dream of building a Castle across the river away from KL which he found foul. And the Slavers did not become slavers because of the calamities, they were slaving before that and that is how they came about. Imagine that a slaver lying, that is also from the World book though.

Tyrant 2.

Green is a very important color in the books right now, for a reason. Now Cersei really enjoys that wildfire, she considers it part of her power. While Dany likes the Slippers and thinks they are pretty, they don't fit and are uncomfortable and of course sent to her from a Usurper. Also of course we get multiple Aerys parallels with Cersei the Pyromancers and Wildfire. What I do find interesting with Aerys/Cersei you can see how someone has been driven in this direction and also how a Prophecy effected their two lives in very similar ways including a marriage to someone neither wanted to marry. You don't have to be born crazy but stress can do a lot of damage. They both appear to have issues very young though.

4. Dany had cup bearers from her enemies as well and she found them very sweet and is kind to them and protects them from the Shavepates desires.

5. Again with Cersei and the Cray Cray burning and all the imagined slights and plots. She didn't even deal with most of them. Her own Treason caused a problem with Arryn and Stark.

6. There is a good comparison there but again we see an Aerys parallel while the symbolism is inverted, it's the same sort of idea. Aerys decent into madness includes his hair nails and going ungroomed, while Cersei has been rather over groomed so to speak. It goes with that sort of male/female inversion or contrasting parallel that often occurs.

I share the opinion that Cersei is far more a parallel to Aerys than Dany has ever been. Be interesting to see if anyone is their to stop her parallel decent into fire.

Nice work Suzy.

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