The Parallel Journey of Daenerys Targaryen & ... Part I

[JonCon's Red Beard]

totally off topic but I just want to know what happened to dany poll thread started by JCRB...

I woke up and its gone

:dunno:

I'm trying to find out with a mod what actually happened because I don't think I broke any rule (there is more threads with polls) and people was civilized.

The poll is in my signature, in the meantime. I'll let it open a few more days. If they don't allow it anymore, I'll still post the results via tumblr or any other place.

[jon rhaegar stark]

Thank you JCRB ...

sad i was looking forward to it

just let us know what happened...iam sure all wants to know .....

when you post the result ....will you please provide that link of the result too if you are not permitted

[BearQueen87]

But perhaps “decision” isn’t quite the right word to use here.

Is Arya Stark of Winterfell resisting conversion? One might put the matter this way. One might also say that it is her subconscious that is doing the resisting. Or perhaps someone or something is reaching out to her. There is a similarity to Dany (and to Bran, more on that later.) Dany certainly didn’t plan for, or even anticipate, her dragon dreams. The first one was very frightening to her. Perhaps it was her subconscious that brought forth the dreams. Perhaps it was some kind of family or racial memory. Maybe something was reaching out to her.

Another similarity: Dany will face an attempt to convert her to a “true religion.” Like Arya, she will have reason to ally herself with a powerful group. The red priests, however, will want “the world’s deliverer” to embrace the worship of the Lord of Light. There is little chance that Daenerys will be happy to do this. It will be interesting to see how things work out. (There is also a comparison to be made with Stannis and his relationship with the red priestess. This is something else to consider later.)

That's a very interesting idea. Arya "resists" conversion but she also uses the religion to further own needs. There are many times when she thinks about how she has no place else to go, whenever it seems like the Kindly Man might throw her out of the HoBaW. Dany might be the same way once Moqqoro reaches her. She won't convert to the Red's faith (I honestly cannot see her doing that) but she might use them and the sort of people they can bring to her side to further her own agenda. It's the same with the Dothraki. Dany might never believe that she is actually TSTMTW, but she'll allow those that believe she is to follow her and fight for her.

BearQueen! You are a rockstar as always with your essay's :) I'm sorry I have been so busy at work, but Ill catch up soon :)

Thanks Suzanna!

[Seams]

Identity Study: Daenerys

We are introduced to the idea of Dany wearing clothing as part of an intricate power play, but with Dany unable or unwilling to accept the role being forced on her, in her very first POV. . . . Dany has no idea what it means to be a princess, what it means to be a potential bride, nor what it means to be a Targaryen dragon: and perhaps the dragon did remember, but Dany could not.

Your summation from this first POV - that Dany does not know what it means to be a princess - exactly captures the purpose of the clothing metaphors in her story, I think.

I find I've been thinking recently about the exquisite slippers King Cleon sends to Dany as part of his attempt to woo her and get her to return to Astapor. They are beautiful but Dany notes that they are so small that they are made for a child. She accepts them and wears them for a little while but finally kicks them off with great relief when she is able to retire to a back room and take a break from her throne-sitting obligations in Meereen. I would say that these slippers, perhaps in combination with the Ghiscari wedding rituals when Dany marries Hizdahr zo Loraq (she rejected almost all of the requirements initially - wearing pearls to represent fertility, washing her groom's feet, etc.), embody the wrong turn Dany has taken in trying to look and act like a queen based on other people's definitions of what a queen (or bride) should wear or do. The fact that the slippers are made for a child also indicates that trying to fit into them would be like trying to turn back time - Dany's efforts in Astapor didn't work out as she intended, but she can't go back; the city is in her past.

(Note: I think that acorn-embroidered dress that Arya wears while at Lady Smallwood's home serves the same or a similar function in her story as the Cleon slippers do in Dany's story - the dress represents Arya's past as a high-born girl, and trying to go back to that past is going to be a bad fit. I can't help noting, too, that Bran feels like skinchanging into Hodor is like wearing someone's boots. I know there will be another set of essays where the comparison between Dany's slippers and Bran's "boots" can be discussed at greater length.)

Alongside the slippers from King Cleon, I'm still pondering the butcher metaphor thing, and recently re-"read" (on audio) the passage in ADWD where Daario Naharis tells Dany that maybe all Kings have to be butchers. I guess we'll find out in the next book whether Dany's feelings for Daario survive her second rebirth, following her flight on Drogon out of the fighting pit. My inclination is that she may be taking a new wrong turn by listening to the super-violent Daario, even as she escapes from the previous wrong turn of trying to fit the Meereenese notions of how to be a queen. She may try to stay close to him for awhile and then realize that a "butcher" persona is also a bad fit for her; if she's lucky, maybe Daario's advice will also have been burned away along with the "floppy ears" of Dany's Meereen interlude, and she will be able to identify and choose the path of a Targaryen Queen of Westeros - her original goal.

Speaking of the floppy ears, the only character who has been associated with rabbits, iirc, is Gilly. She was trying to raise and breed a pair of rabbits but Ghost eats one and Jon and his Night's Watch brothers eat the other at Craster's Keep. I wonder whether the shared rabbit metaphor hints at something we will see later in an intersection of Dany and Gilly's stories?

If Dany only plays when she puts on costumes, with the exception of the tokar which attempts to constrict her entire identity, then we must ask what does Dany wear when she is at her most comfortable, when she is most at peace or self-assured. In every instance, it is something that is associated with the Dothraki. It could be traditional riding garb, complete with bells in her hair, or it could be the pelt Drogo made for her from the grassland lion. A few examples from various books:

Dany's beloved garment is a lion's pelt. I think this is the only lion's pelt we have seen in the series, isn't it? I wonder whether some of these signature animal-skin garments foreshadow future confrontations. Dany vs. the Lannisters. Jon Connington is introduced wearing red wolf skins. Tyrion receives a bear skin from Benjen Stark and later wears a shadow cat cloak. Jon Snow wears sheepskins when he is among the wildlings. Entirely speculative at this point, but could be interesting.

Arya and Dany (and just about everyone else in ASOIAF) are going through identity crises. Aryas identity constantly shifts from character to character and her ASOIAF arc thus far ends with her trying to become no one, to lose her identity completely. Dany is the opposite in that, tokar aside, shes never tried to become another person, only played at other identities in order to move along. Her ASOIAF arc ends with a better understanding of what being Daenerys Targaryen means.

I've just finished with a second reading of the wedding of Ramsay Bolton and "Lady Arya" (i.e., Jeyne Poole) and it occurs to me that it might be necessary to examine some of the details of Jeyne's scenes in order to understand the story arc of the real Arya Stark. You noted that Arya is intent on becoming No One, so it shouldn't surprise us, I suppose, that someone picks up her discarded identity and uses it where she left off. Jeyne tells Theon / Reek that she is the one who came up with the Arya Horseface nickname for Arya. The way that Ramsay has Theon / Reek cut the clothes off of "Ned Stark's Little Girl" on their wedding night is a symbolic flaying. (It also fits with the larger torn fabric/mended fabric metaphor I've been trying to follow and sort out.)

The description of Jeyne / Lady Arya's wedding outfit makes a point of mentioning, a couple of times, that she is wearing deerskin shoes. If the idea of animal skins foreshadowing character confrontations (or match-ups) turns out to be valid, I wonder whether this signals some kind of conflict between Jeyne and Stannis (or Gendry, who would be one of the few characters to know that Jeyne is not the real Arya).

[BearQueen87]

Your summation from this first POV - that Dany does not know what it means to be a princess - exactly captures the purpose of the clothing metaphors in her story, I think.

I find I've been thinking recently about the exquisite slippers King Cleon sends to Dany as part of his attempt to woo her and get her to return to Astapor. They are beautiful but Dany notes that they are so small that they are made for a child. She accepts them and wears them for a little while but finally kicks them off with great relief when she is able to retire to a back room and take a break from her throne-sitting obligations in Meereen. I would say that these slippers, perhaps in combination with the Ghiscari wedding rituals when Dany marries Hizdahr zo Loraq (she rejected almost all of the requirements initially - wearing pearls to represent fertility, washing her groom's feet, etc.), embody the wrong turn Dany has taken in trying to look and act like a queen based on other people's definitions of what a queen (or bride) should wear or do. The fact that the slippers are made for a child also indicates that trying to fit into them would be like trying to turn back time - Dany's efforts in Astapor didn't work out as she intended, but she can't go back; the city is in her past.

(Note: I think that acorn-embroidered dress that Arya wears while at Lady Smallwood's home serves the same or a similar function in her story as the Cleon slippers do in Dany's story - the dress represents Arya's past as a high-born girl, and trying to go back to that past is going to be a bad fit. I can't help noting, too, that Bran feels like skinchanging into Hodor is like wearing someone's boots. I know there will be another set of essays where the comparison between Dany's slippers and Bran's "boots" can be discussed at greater length.)

You made some really amazing points all around, so I'll be brief since you covered a lot of this.

I love this Arya and Dany comparison with the shoes and the dress. Dany kicks off the slippers because they don't fit, literally and metaphorically. And briefly, about the butcher theme, I think Dany kicking off the slippers from the Butcher King is an indication that she won't become a Butcher herself. Now, I do think she is going to basically burn the cesspool that is Slaver's Bay to the ground so that the region can try to start anew without the vile practice of slavery or the terrible Masters...but I would point out here that while "butcher" has a negative connotation, it's also positive. If we just think of any old butcher, it's a man who, yes kills an animals, but it's so that we can eat. Life from death...something that is absolutely Daenerys. The Butcher King Cleon is just death. Astapor is the closest thing to Hell, or so thinketh Quentyn.

With Arya, the dress doesn't fit either, and she messes it up after it's put on. It's a rejection of what she used to be. The second outfit she is given by Lady Smallwood is more to her tastes as New! Arya.

Alongside the slippers from King Cleon, I'm still pondering the butcher metaphor thing, and recently re-"read" (on audio) the passage in ADWD where Daario Naharis tells Dany that maybe all Kings have to be butchers. I guess we'll find out in the next book whether Dany's feelings for Daario survive her second rebirth, following her flight on Drogon out of the fighting pit. My inclination is that she may be taking a new wrong turn by listening to the super-violent Daario, even as she escapes from the previous wrong turn of trying to fit the Meereenese notions of how to be a queen. She may try to stay close to him for awhile and then realize that a "butcher" persona is also a bad fit for her; if she's lucky, maybe Daario's advice will also have been burned away along with the "floppy ears" of Dany's Meereen interlude, and she will be able to identify and choose the path of a Targaryen Queen of Westeros - her original goal.

If she does take Daario's advice, it will only be because she's come to some (some!) of the same conclusions he has.

As for how close they are come WOW, I don't know. I'm not exactly...unbiased in this matter. (Kyoshi is glaring at me right now while he reads this). I don't think Daario is going to go to Westeros. He has no association with that place and Dany's dreams of home except for what Dany has created in her fairy tale like fantasies of the two of them, all of which burn out with the candle in her room come the light of day. Daario is a product of Essos, someone that belongs in Essos, and someone for whom Westeros is just another place to potentially war and plunder. It doesn't have the same resonance for Daario that it does for Dany.

Either he falls in battle or he stays behind after Dany has realized that she doesn't want to be a "monster" (her words, Kyoshi, not mine!)

Speaking of the floppy ears, the only character who has been associated with rabbits, iirc, is Gilly. She was trying to raise and breed a pair of rabbits but Ghost eats one and Jon and his Night's Watch brothers eat the other at Craster's Keep. I wonder whether the shared rabbit metaphor hints at something we will see later in an intersection of Dany and Gilly's stories?

I associate Gilly quite a bit two things: Sam and children.

For the former, I do think Dany and Sam are going to meet. There seems to be a lot of setup for that. Not only is Sam the one who is now hearing about the dragons and is studying magic at the Citadel, but he as also the last person to speak to Maester Aemon Targaryen (someone who actually tells Sam to go after Dany) and the last person to speak to Jeor Mormont (and that's where Dany's own bear comes in. Jorah has to hear the final words of his father).

For the latter, I think we're looking at something like a parallel if one of Dany's dragons (her children) go over to Jon. Jon keeps Gilly's baby, and one of Dany's "babies" is claimed by Jon.

Dany's beloved garment is a lion's pelt. I think this is the only lion's pelt we have seen in the series, isn't it? I wonder whether some of these signature animal-skin garments foreshadow future confrontations. Dany vs. the Lannisters. Jon Connington is introduced wearing red wolf skins. Tyrion receives a bear skin from Benjen Stark and later wears a shadow cat cloak. Jon Snow wears sheepskins when he is among the wildlings. Entirely speculative at this point, but could be interesting.

I do think it's the only lion's pelt since those animals are only in Essos, I guess.

It could be future confrontations, but it could also be future/current allies.

Dany and Tyrion as allies seems a pretty safe bet given the end of ADWD and the spoiler chapter from WOW

JonCon and the Stark Wolves...well, I know JCRB thinks that JonCon will met Jon Snow eventually, at least before he dies.

Tyrion and the bear skin cloak...given ADWD and the spoiler chapter from WOW, we have Tyrion and Jorah Mormont working together quite closely.

And maybe sometimes a shadow cat is just a shadow cat. :)

[Queen‍‍‍‍‍‍ Alysanne‍‍™]

Sorry I haven't been able to participate in this thread, It's been a busy week I'll try and catch up in the next few days.

On the other hand this is the next essay in this series.

The Princess and the Queen

Welcome to the essay on the parallels between Daenerys Targaryen and Arianne Martell AKA the Princess and the Queen. With Arianne and Daenerys having both differences and similarities in how they have experienced or approached particular topics within the story, I’ll be comparing and contrasting a selected set of themes between both characters. The themes I’ll be exploring are “The right to rule”, sexuality and fashion. With the main focus on Daenerys the aim of this essay is to see how Dany’s views, actions and experiences compare with a Westerosi noble such as Arianne Martell. The essay will also aim to answer questions such as whether Dany’s actions, views and experiences are better, worse or the same as the princess of Dorne Arianne Martell. I believe this is important as we often see readers complain about how detached Dany’s storyline is from Westeros, perhaps from this comparison we can find out if that view holds out to be true. I’d first like to start with an introduction of both characters, looking at how they are presented to us and their arcs as a whole.

Introductions: Daenerys Targaryen and Arianne Martell

Daenerys and Arianne are presented both differently to the reader and at different times in the story. Daenerys is introduced to us at the start of A Game of Thrones, as a weak and timid girl that is being sold by her brother in return for an army and Arianne is first presented to us through the POV of Arys Oakheart (A kingsguard member) in A Feast for Crows, to readers she will first come across as a seductress ready to use a man as a means to an end and then she is then presented in her own POV as a girl trying to claim her birthright and install Myrcella Baratheon as Queen of the Seven Kingdoms.

Dany’s character despite starting at the wrong end of the spectrum grows quickly, she gains strength and courage after seeing Viserys for who he really is and also from the continuous influence of her dragon dreams and the newfound leadership role she has found within her khalasar. That courage and strength leads her to hatch three dragon eggs despite the death of her unborn son and husband and this makes her the first female Khal to have a khalasar.

With power comes great responsibility, and as Dany’s dragons grow so does her power as and she soon faces tough descisions on what she should do with said power. She chooses to use it to free slaves and end slavery in every city she stops by but the effects of her actions are worse then she expected so she then chooses to use her power to correct the mistakes she made.

On the other hand Arianne arc starts with a Queenmaker plan which has a lot of potential but eventually ends up blowing up in a way she never expects. How similar or different they are is one thing that could define that, and thus puts the comparison of these two characters into category of “important”.

Right to Kingship

We’ll start this comparison by looking at how both characters view the “the right of kingship”. In other words we will be looking at what Dany and Arianne believe should play a role when a King/Queen is to be chosen. Afterwards we will compare both views and try and explore the flaws and jewels of both views and see how Dany “fits in” with Arianne.

Daenerys

Dany’s view of Kingship is that it is a duty and not just a right. I’ll elaborate on this more in the following paragraphs.

The first time we see Dany’s view of Kingship is in A Game of Thrones, and it mostly has to do with Viserys being the King of Westeros based on his royal blood, however when Jorah tells her that the common folk don’t care whther their King is an Ursurper or true King a doubt that she has always known awakens in her.

Dany rode along quietly for a time, working his words like a puzzle box. It went against everything that Viserys had ever told her to think that the people could care so little whether a true king or a usurper reigned over them. Yet the more she thought on Jorah’s words, the more they rang of truth.

And from the quote below, the text shows that Dany has always known that Viserys is not fit to be King despite him being the rightful heir but has forced herself into believing he should be King.

“My brother will never take back the Seven Kingdoms,” Dany said. She had known that for a long time, she realized. She had known it all her life. Only she had never let herself say the words, even in a whisper, but now she said them for Jorah Mormont and all the world to hear.

Ser Jorah gave her a measuring look. “You think not.” “He could not lead an army even if my lord husband gave him one,” Dany said. “He has no coin and the only knight who follows him reviles him as less than a snake. The Dothraki make mock of his weakness. He will never take us home.”

So at this point in the story Dany’s view on the “right to rule” goes against the Westerosi norm that the rightful heir should rule regardless of his character, as she doesn’t believe Viserys will or should be King based upon his character and his record. She even goes as far as thinking of her son as King in another chapter where Viserys’ track record is questioned again.

Daenerys’ views on Kingship are also brought up in A Clash of Kings when she fantasizes about how she would want her people to be like if she is Queen.

I want to make my kingdom beautiful, to fill it with fat men and pretty maids and laughing children. I want my people to smile when they see me ride by, the way Viserys said they smiled for my father.

Whiles this thought sounds a lot like childish fantasizing it still gives us a closer look at what Dany believes a King is required to do in her subconscious. From this quote the gist is that a King is required to try and make his people happy and this quote fits with Jorah’s statement of what the common folk want. Daenerys having lived a poor life style, probably similar to many of the common folk has the view of peace and happiness for majority being a vital task for a King.

We also see another view on Kingship in A Storm of Swords.

“I was alone for a long time, Jorah. All alone but for my brother. I was such a small scared thing. Viserys should have protected me, but instead he hurt me and scared me worse. He shouldn’t have done that. He wasn’t just my brother, he was my king. Why do the gods make kings and queens, if not to protect the ones who can’t protect themselves?” “Some kings make themselves. Robert did.” “He was no true king,” Dany said scornfully. “He did no justice. Justice . . . that’s what kings are for.”

In this quote we see that Dany also believes a King is meant to protect the weak and also to provide justice. She also criticizes Viserys again as he was her King but never did any of those things and she also criticizes Robert for not being just.

The view of protecting the weak also comes up again in A dance with dragons during her identity crisis of being the mother of dragons.

Safe. The word made Dany’s eyes fill up with tears. “I want to keep you safe.” Missandei was only a child. With her, she felt as if she could be a child too. “No one ever kept me safe when I was little. Well, Ser Willem did, but then he died, and Viserys … I want to protect you but … it is so hard. To be strong. I don’t always know what I should do. I must know, though. I am all they have. I am the queen … the … the …” “… mother,” whispered Missandei.

From the observations above we can conclude that Dany’s view on the kingship is that a King has several obligations to his people that he must fulfil and she focuses on that more rather than someone becoming King based on rights.

Some may argue that Dany has stated that she wants to become Queen of Westeros based off her rights, however if we judge her actions rather than her words that isn’t the full story. For instance she chooses to be Queen of Meereen based of her duty to the freed slaves and not for personal desires.

“Aegon the Conqueror brought fire and blood to Westeros, but afterward he gave them peace, prosperity, and justice. But all I have brought to Slaver’s Bay is death and ruin. I have been more khal than queen, smashing and plundering, then moving on.”

I will not let this city go the way of Astapor. I will not let the harpy of Yunkai chain up those I’ve freed all over again.” She turned back to look at their faces. “I will not march.” “What will you do then, Khaleesi?” asked Rakharo. “Stay,” she said. “Rule. And be a queen.”

She even questions whether she should rule Westeros based off her track record in Slaver’s Bay.

“But how can I rule seven kingdoms if I cannot rule a single city?” He had no answer to that. Dany turned away from them, to gaze out over the city once again.

In a nutshell, Dany sees Kingship as a task and duty, not just a right. In other words Kingship is a right that only exists if you fulfill your obligations as King.

Arianne

Arianne’s views on kingship and the right to rule are first presented to us in A feast for crows through Arys Oakheart’s chapter.

“But not better than Myrcella. She loves the boy as well. I know she will not let him come to any harm. Storm’s End is his by rights, since Lord Renly left no heir and Lord Stannis is attainted. In time, Casterly Rock will pass to the boy as well, through his lady mother. He will be as great a lord as any in the realm . . . but Myrcella by rights should sit the Iron Throne.”

Like most Westerosi nobles, Arianne believes kingship is based off the law of succession and rights, however with a Dornish spin she believes females should have equal rights to men in succession. It is also the same way she views her rights to Sunspear in comparison to Quentyn.

Do you see the white one, Quentyn? That is Nymeria’s star, burning bright, and that milky band behind her, those are ten thousand ships. She burned as bright as any man, and so shall I. You will not rob me of my birthright!

There aren’t a lot of Arianne chapters so there aren’t a lot of examples, but in a nutshell her views on kingship, is that a female should have the same rights as a male in succession and that kingship is based on rights by blood.

Comparison

When comparing the two characters views, Dany’s views are a bit more fleshed with emphasis on kingship and the right to rule having to do with rights but at the same time having to do with duty to the people. Arianne has the same views of rights based off blood but there is no evidence of her seeing that a duty to the people is attached to said role.

I believe the commonality between Dany and Arianne views on kingship having to do with bloodline is due to the setting of the story, in the middle ages nobles basing ruling off bloodline was almost a universal truth. The difference I believe has to do with Dany’s upbringing, after being abused by Viserys while growing up she believes that Kings aren’t just King’s based off rights but also based off an obligation towards their people, to prevent people ending up how she did.

Sexuality

Sexuality plays a big role in both Dany’s and Arianne’s arcs however the author presents it differently in both girls arcs. When comparing I’ll be focusing on the sexual background, sexual interaction with other men (Sexual autonomy) and the roles of sex in their arcs.

Sexual back ground

Daenerys

Dany’s background of sex at the beginning of the book is portrayed as “inexperienced” especially with her being only thirteen at that time. Her only experience comes from the sexual abuse of her brother. Viserys viewed as his property and that included Dany being his sexual property. We have evidence from the first chapter from A game of thrones where he toys with her body.

“You still slouch. Straighten yourself.” He pushed back her shoulders with his hands. “Let them see that you have a woman’s shape now.” His fingers brushed lightly over her budding breasts and tightened on a nipple.

We also have Illyrio’s comments in A dance of dragons that Viserys was trying to have sex with Daenerys before her wedding day.

The night before the princess wed he tried to steal into her bed, insisting that if he could not have her hand, he would claim her maidenhead. Had I not taken the precaution of posting guards upon her door, Viserys might have undone years of planning.”

Arianne

In comparison, Arianne’s sexual background isn’t fully explored but from what we know she lost her maidenhead when she was fourteen.

“My father is many things, but no one has ever said he was a fool. The Bastard of Godsgrace had my maidenhead when we were both fourteen.

Given the use of the phrase “when we were both fourteen” I’m guessing this was consensual, so perhaps Arianne has had sexual autonomy since her early teens.

Comparing both characters, we see that Dany has been abused sexually and Arianne hasn’t. Looking at age alone however they both had sexual encounters at the age of fourteen though Arianne’s one seemed more autonomous.

Sexual Interaction

Daenerys

Dany’s sexual interaction with men changes over the course of the story. She starts off with very little sexual autonomy and it slowly increases over the course of the story until Mereen where her autonomy begins to decline after her marriage with Hizdahr.

Comparing the way she has sex from Drogo to Daario and then to Hizdahr is a good symbol of that. With Drogo she starts off by being dominated by him as he takes her from behind and after some lessons from Doreah she progresses on to not being dominated but rather a pleaser for Drogo. Dany being a pleaser for Drogo is indicated by her “using bed trick” which means she isn’t completely dominant in sex but rather she pleases him.

With Daario, Dany’s sexual autonomy has evolved to a higher degree of freedom as she is no longer the pleaser but rather the one bring pleased. This is true especially when you look at a quote from her sex with Daario. The quote stated that she had him every way a woman could have, that to me sounds like she made him do what she wanted when having sex with him.

When Dany married Hizdahr she lost her sexual autonomy and returned to being used.

The excitement of the day had inflamed her husband’s passions. No sooner had her handmaids retired for the night than he tore the robe from her and tumbled her backwards into bed. Dany slid her arms around him and let him have his way. Drunk as he was, she knew he would not be inside her long.

So over time Dany’s sexual autonomy changes throughout all books, though the way her arc ended in A dance with dragons it seems she will soon be returning to that involving sexual freedom.

Arianne

Arianne’s sexual autonomy also has a high degree of freedom compared to most women in Westeros. Her sex with Arys Oakheart also has to do with Arianne being the dominant one and the one in control of the situation. This quote is an example of her dominance.

“Your hands are shaking,” she pointed out. “They would sooner be caressing me, I think. Must you be in such haste to don your clothes, ser? I prefer you as you are. Abed, unclad, we are our truest selves, a man and a woman, lovers, one flesh, as close as two can be. Our clothes make us different people. I would sooner be flesh and blood than silks and jewels, and you . . . you are not your white cloak, ser.”

She also pushes aside Arys during the Queenmaker plot in a playful way to focus more on the plot which also shows her dominance.

Role of sex

Sex plays a role for both girls just like everyone else as a source of pleasure, though there is one difference between the girls on the way sex is used and this has to do with Arianne who uses sex as a political weapon. Whether or not this is a virtue or flaw will be left up for discussion.

Comparison

Putting aside Dany’s experiences with Drogo and Hizdahr, Dany’s sexual autonomy is very similar to Arianne and different than most Westerosi girls. I believe the similarities have to do with their power and cultural backgrounds.

Dany has power in her own right and many male followers and Arianne is also the heir to Sunspear. Dany and Arianne also have experiences from cultures that take no shame in their sexuality that is Dorne and the Dothraki, so the two girls are willing at any point to have paramours as long as it pleases their sexual desires and doesn’t affect the political situation they are in.

Both Arianne and Daenerys are also attracted to cruel warriors, Dany to Daario and Arianne to Darkstar. The author even describes them similarly with Arianne describing Darkstars lips as “cruel” and Dany describing Daarios kisses as “cruel”.

Fashion in Politics

Fashion played a big role for women when it came to politics, during the middle ages and both Dany and Arianne use fashion as a political tool.

Daenerys

Dany uses it in many occasions throughout her arc. An example is when Xaro visits her in Meereen, she dresses in a Quartheen gown to show respect

In his honor Daenerys had donned a Qartheen gown, a sheer confection of violet samite cut so as to leave her left breast bare. Her silver-gold hair brushed lightly over her shoulder, falling almost to her nipple.

She also wears Mereenese fashion when she rules the city to show that she is one of them.

In A clash of King’s Dany also dresses in Dothraki fashion as a threat to the Quatheen people.

If the Milk Men thought her such a savage, she would dress the part for them. When she went to the stables, she wore faded sandsilk pants and woven grass sandals. Her small breasts moved freely beneath a painted Dothraki vest, and a curved dagger hung from her medallion belt. Jhiqui had braided her hair Dothraki fashion, and fastened a silver bell to the end of the braid.

Arianne

In A feast for crows Arianne dresses in clothes without jewelry ahead of her meeting with her father, to look more sympathetic when asking for forgiveness.

When it was time to dress, she chose a simple gown of ivory linen, with vines and purple grapes embroidered around the sleeves and bodice. She wore no jewels. I must be chaste and humble and contrite. I must throw myself at his feet and beg forgiveness, or I may never hear another human voice again.

Comparison

In general there is a similarity between both girls; they take careful consideration when planning what to wear when meeting someone. The way they also dress fits the theme of their motives at that particular point.

Other interesting observations

· Both Daenerys and Arianne have a period of observation where theyreflect on the actions they have made. Dany’s is at the Dothraki sea and Arianne’s is at the tower she was confined. They then go on to meet their father like figures Dany meets Jorah in vision and Arianne meets her father. Both meetings change the trajectory each character’s arc was heading.

· Viserys and Arianne, Dany and Quentyn, both brothers die by fire. Is that coincidence?

· Arianne and Dany are related by blood and also both females are descendants of the warrior Queen Nymeria.

· Nymeria is an idol for Arianne and Dany fits the bill of a modern Nymeria very well. Should Dany arrive the same way like Nymeria with many followers, how will Arianne react to that?

· Arianne likes to use manipulation when dealing with men and Dany likes to use force.

Conclusion

At some point in the story Arianne and Daenerys will meet and I do look forward to it. I wonder how their differences and similarities will clash. Will they be allies or will they be enemies? Only time will tell so we’ll wait and see what happens in Winds of Winter but it is bound to be an interesting clash for sure.

Topics for discussion

· Aerys views of kingship clearly differed from Dany’s view, if Dany finds out about her father what will be her reaction?

· Arianne seems to favour women being part of the succession line and even gives playful nod at Cersei having power on the IT, should Aegon and Daenerys clash for the Iron Throne where will her loyalties lie? With Daenerys a potential female ruler? Or with Aegon her cousin?

· There will be an interesting contrast between Dany and Arianne when Dany finds out about Aegon, it will similar to Arianne finding out about Quentyn.

· Should Arianne and Daenerys meet in court, how will Arianne dress ahead of meeting Dany? How will Dany dress ahead of meeting Arianne?

[BearQueen87]

Sorry I haven't been able to participate in this thread, It's been a busy week I'll try and catch up in the next few days.

On the other hand this is the next essay in this series.

The Princess and the Queen

Really excellent job Queen Alysanne!

In a nutshell, Dany sees Kingship as a task and duty, not just a right. In other words Kingship is a right that only exists if you fulfill your obligations as King.

Nicely written up and I agree. I also want to point out that this is something Dany learns on her own, with some help from Jorah's words. Dany has had little education like she would have in Westeros, the sort Arianne had. Her understanding of Kingship is worked out "like a puzzle box"--not be reading about it and being taught, but by experience. In her first chapter in ACOK, Dany thinks about how she has to be strong for her Khalasaar and they must always see her as a queen. Before she sends Jorah to Pyat Pree to ask for an audience in Qarth, she realizes that she is afraid, but she cannot turn back.

Her duty as Queen not only comes across in these moments you've pointed out, but in smaller ones like keeping Missendei safe, but also holding Doreah's hand as she dies. As Queen and Khalseesi, Dany did not have to tend to Doreah herself. She has Queenly things to worry about, except worrying about those who can tend to themselves is, for Dany, a large part of what it means to be Queen. This is seen in the slaves, in the victims of the Pale Mare that Dany washes herself, and seen in the way she tends to Drogo's wounds, to Jorah's wounds and later Daario's wounds.

It's all well and good to say that you think Queenship is a duty, it's another to act on it.

There aren’t a lot of Arianne chapters so there aren’t a lot of examples, but in a nutshell her views on kingship, is that a female should have the same rights as a male in succession and that kingship is based on rights by blood.

Arianne and Dany are both these un-traditional women in a male dominated world, but I find it interesting the way Arianne and Dany go about trying to influence or bring about their desired outcome. You cover this quite well in your next section so I'll say more there.

I believe the commonality between Dany and Arianne views on kingship having to do with bloodline is due to the setting of the story, in the middle ages nobles basing ruling off bloodline was almost a universal truth

Yes the bloodline is important. First, just want to say that it's somewhat ironic that Arianne compares herself to Nymeria and Dany is basically Nymeria 2.0. Arianne thinks that Nymeria burned as bright as any man and so shall she, but she it's not as if she is following in Nymeria's footsteps. She is leading her people into freedom, she isn't doing anything "for her people" as it were. She's doing it for herself--this is her birthright and she means to take it.

Back to the bloodline...both Dany and Arianne use their ancestors as reasons why they should be allowed to rule. Dany thinks about being blood of the dragon and blood of Aegon and in a Tyrion chapter, the dwarf likens her to Aegon the Conqueror come again. Arianne uses her own legendary figure.

Comparing both characters, we see that Dany has been abused sexually and Arianne hasn’t. Looking at age alone however they both had sexual encounters at the age of fourteen though Arianne’s one seemed more autonomous.

Because Arianne has had more sexual liberation and freedom than Dany, she knows the power of sex and how it can be used to as a weapon. I loathe the way Cersei puts it to Sansa, but it does have a measure of truth to it when a very sexually driven woman like Arianne can get a KG knight, abstinent for 10 years, to foreswear his vows.

The excitement of the day had inflamed her husband’s passions. No sooner had her handmaids retired for the night than he tore the robe from her and tumbled her backwards into bed. Dany slid her arms around him and let him have his way. Drunk as he was, she knew he would not be inside her long.

So over time Dany’s sexual autonomy changes throughout all books, though the way her arc ended in A dance with dragons it seems she will soon be returning to that involving sexual freedom

I made note of this over in the original Dany Re-Read but this is very akin to assault and I doubt it's something Arianne ever had to deal with. Now, we know that Doran was trying to "marry" Arianne off to much older men because of a secret plot, but Arianne appears to have had some say here. She didn't have to worry about being tumbled backwards and letting her husband simply have his way. Arianne gets to choose her sexual partners, whereas Dany has only ever truly chosen one.

Comparison

Putting aside Dany’s experiences with Drogo and Hizdahr, Dany’s sexual autonomy is very similar to Arianne and different than most Westerosi girls. I believe the similarities have to do with their power and cultural backgrounds.

Dany has power in her own right and many male followers and Arianne is also the heir to Sunspear. Dany and Arianne also have experiences from cultures that take no shame in their sexuality that is Dorne and the Dothraki, so the two girls are willing at any point to have paramours as long as it pleases their sexual desires and doesn’t affect the political situation they are in.

Both Arianne and Daenerys are also attracted to cruel warriors, Dany to Daario and Arianne to Darkstar. The author even describes them similarly with Arianne describing Darkstars lips as “cruel” and Dany describing Daarios kisses as “cruel”.

Dany never uses sex as a weapon. She never thinks that she can give Drogo incredible pleasure and suddenly he'll be inclined to march westward to Westeros. She never tries to seduce Hizzy into anything. And sex with Daario is for no reason other than pleasure. She's not asking for him to do anything for her.

Now Arianne....ok, it's been awhile since I ready Arianne's chapters, I admit. But what is everyone's opinions on her and Arys. Is she simply using him? I think she cares for him, but is it mostly part of the Queenmaker plot? And consider this...Arianne knows how good she looks. She really does. She dresses in a certain way to make men uncomfortable and to give her little regard because they are too consumed with lust for her. At one point, in in the Tower, she even does this with her father. She dresses scantily thinking that Doran will come to her and will be unprepared to face his daughter when she is dressed as such.

Now maybe it's because Dany has other weapons--knights, Unsullied, dragons--but like I said, she never tries to use sex as a tool when it comes to Drogo to get her agenda of Westeros met.

Viserys and Arianne, Dany and Quentyn, both brothers die by fire. Is that coincidence?

Speaking of brotherly relationships...Arianne and Dany's relationships with their brothers suck.

With Arianne and Quentyn we have two people who don't really know each other. They never even interact on our "screen" whereas Viserys and Dany interact too much on our screen. Arianne and Quetnyn are also vastly different; Arianne really is Doren, but Quentyn must constantly tell himself that he is Dorne. There is a lot of jealously on Arianne's part because she believes her brother is trying to take what is hers. I also think with both Quentyn and Viserys we have two "brothers" who left a place they ought not to have left. Viserys should have stayed in Pentos; Quentyn should have stayed in Dorne, but the difference is that Viserys is greed and Quentyn is mindful of his duty.

Arianne seems to favour women being part of the succession line and even gives playful nod at Cersei having power on the IT, should Aegon and Daenerys clash for the Iron Throne where will her loyalties lie? With Daenerys a potential female ruler? Or with Aegon her cousin?

If Aegon and Arianne get married, then I'm betting that Arianne sides with her husband. But I do think she'll have some sort of weird respect for Dany, who is Nymeria 2.0. However, the rumors that are already circulating about Dany aren't going to help, and with Quentyn's death and the "hands" of a dragon, it's really not going to make it smooth sailing.

Should Arianne and Daenerys meet in court, how will Arianne dress ahead of meeting Dany? How will Dany dress ahead of meeting Arianne?

Dany, I think, would wear whatever is comfortable--which means Dothraki clothing. Arianne, who considers herself to be very beautiful (and she is) will likely dress to impress and show off her assets given that Dany is reputed to be the most beautiful woman in the world.

[SeanF]

Queen Alysanne, Many thanks.

We know a good deal about Dany, who has 31 chapters. We know much less about Arianne, who only has three chapters, plus one sample chapter from TWOW. We're left guessing about how Arianne's story and character will develop.

However, there are a number of points that occur to me:-

1. Both have been woefully ill-educated for the positions which they occupy. In Dany's case, that's due to her exile. She's been taught to read and write and do maths, and she has a gift for languages, but her knowledge of the politics and history of Westeros, or law and government, is hazy in the extreme. Arianne has been deliberately kept ignorant by her father. He planned that she should marry Viserys, whereas Quentyn would inherit Dorne. Her duties have been confined to presiding over "feasts and frolics". Suddenly, she is Doran's heir after all, with absolutely no experience of the business of government.

2. Both of them have a great deal of empathy. Arianne is filled with remorse for the death of Ser Arys Oakheart, and worry for the fate of her friends, once her plot has failed. Dany's concern for her followers is well-documented.

3. Both are personally brave, but Dany is the tougher character. She's had to survive being abused by her brother, being sold to a Dothraki warlord, repeated assassination attempts, the death of her son and husband, and war and death in Slavers Bay. Arianne, despite being disinherited and ill-treated (as she believes) has lived a life of luxury. Dany wants to cry when she witnesses what the Dothraki do at the Lhazareen village; by the time her army takes Meereen, she's unmoved by the sights of corpses choking the streets. I don't think Arianne could cope very easily with similar sights.

4. Both are beautiful, and famous for it.

Topics for Discussion

1. Arianne is not the heir to a Throne, but she is by all the laws and customs of Dorne, the rightful heir to her father. She has every right to resent the fact that he has apparently passed her over, and every right to resent the fact that he failed to share his plans with her. His view is that she'll gossip, but she is his heir, and needs to know what is going on. If she's to govern Dorne successfully (or in all likelihood be a successful Queen of Westeros) she needs to do more than preside over entertainments.

Dany's position is different. She is not the heir to a Throne or lordship, but she does have a claim. She can only rely on her own abilities to make good that claim, and not the laws and customs of Westeros, or any of its regions.

Dany would not, I think, be shocked to learn about everything that Aerys did. I can't imagine her ripping out a man's tongue for making a joke at her expense, or torturing a lover to death on suspicion that he poisoned her child. She doesn't share her father's paranoia, and certainly doesn't get sexually aroused by burning people alive. But, like her father, she can be "severe to her enemies". I don't think she'd be perturbed by the fate of the adult Darklyns (although she'd have spared the children). She's placed her brother Rhaegar on a pedestal, and I don't think she'd have any sympathy for Brandon and Rickard Stark.

2 and 3. We're promised a Second Dance of the Dragons. Logically, that must mean Aegon vs Daenerys. The mobilisation of the Dornish army makes no sense plotwise, unless it does advance on Kings Landing sooner or later. Aegon, the Golden Company, and whichever lords of the Reach and Stormlands will ally with them, are the obvious partner. The end of Arianne's sample chapter, from TWOW, shows her to be full of bitterness towards Dany, combined with a mixture of resentment towards Quentyn (she finds the idea of his being King of Westeros laughable) and guilt at feeling that resentment (which she transfers onto Dany). In her eyes, Dany is a murderer, kinslayer, and rival for power.

It's very hard to see Arianne as being anything other than Dany's enemy. My own view is that she will agree to marry Aegon, and hope to rule Westeros as a reigning Queen, in the manner of Aegon and his two sisters.

4. "Nymeria burned as bright as any man, and so shall I" should be regarded as an ominous statement IMHO. After all, Quentyn "burned as bright as any man". So did Princess Rhaenyra. Dany is sure to survive at least almost to the end of the series. Arianne, I think, is doomed (I think the whole story of the Martells is that of a House racing towards its doom). Any meeting between the two will likely be brief, and finish with Arianne being thrown to Drogon.

,

[Suzanna Stormborn]

Great Work QA!!!!

I don't have too much to add on Arianne, Ill have to think on it. :)

Queen Alysanne, Many thanks.

4. "Nymeria burned as bright as any man, and so shall I" should be regarded as an ominous statement IMHO. After all, Quentyn "burned as bright as any man". So did Princess Rhaenyra. Dany is sure to survive at least almost to the end of the series. Arianne, I think, is doomed (I think the whole story of the Martells is that of a House racing towards its doom). Any meeting between the two will likely be brief, and finish with Arianne being thrown to Drogon.

,

That's a good point. LOL. Poor Arianne, I think she is much like her father and Quentyn. They all have these grand ideas, but fall short when it comes to the actions. I agree the Martell family is falling on hard times, and nothing they have put forth seems to be working out in their favor. Arianne strikes me as over-confident, quick to judge, and rash at decision making. Comparing herself to Nymeria is pretentious, no way will she accomplish anything close to what Nymeria has done. She will not have a star named after her, and I doubt she will go down in the history books as any kind of saviour. So your assessment is probably accurate wrt to the 'burned as bright' statement. :agree:

[BearQueen87]

4. "Nymeria burned as bright as any man, and so shall I" should be regarded as an ominous statement IMHO. After all, Quentyn "burned as bright as any man". So did Princess Rhaenyra. Dany is sure to survive at least almost to the end of the series. Arianne, I think, is doomed (I think the whole story of the Martells is that of a House racing towards its doom). Any meeting between the two will likely be brief, and finish with Arianne being thrown to Drogon.

,

I agree with Suzanna, that was well spotted. Likely, Arianne will be gone before Winds finishes.

I thought I'd bring this up but does anyone else find it interesting that when we met Arianne and we see her plots hatching, it's either in a POV that is not her own (The Captain of the Guards, the Soiled Knight) or never given the proper name of Arianne (The Queenmaker, The Princess in the Tower). Dany always stays Dany. GRRM has the opportunity in ADWD to give her a new POV title to reflect the slow loss of identity. She could be The Harpy Queen for instance. But with Arianne we don't even met her for the first time in her own POV and then her proper chapters aren't "Arianne."

If the chapter titles help reflect identity and a state of mind, then does Arianne not really know who she is? Or she's trying to be so many things at once that her identity is fractured?

[Suzanna Stormborn]

I agree with Suzanna, that was well spotted. Likely, Arianne will be gone before Winds finishes.

I thought I'd bring this up but does anyone else find it interesting that when we met Arianne and we see her plots hatching, it's either in a POV that is not her own (The Captain of the Guards, the Soiled Knight) or never given the proper name of Arianne (The Queenmaker, The Princess in the Tower). Dany always stays Dany. GRRM has the opportunity in ADWD to give her a new POV title to reflect the slow loss of identity. She could be The Harpy Queen for instance. But with Arianne we don't even met her for the first time in her own POV and then her proper chapters aren't "Arianne."

If the chapter titles help reflect identity and a state of mind, then does Arianne not really know who she is? Or she's trying to be so many things at once that her identity is fractured?

Huh, that's weird. He did the same thing for Quentyn's chapter titles.

[SeanF]

I agree with Suzanna, that was well spotted. Likely, Arianne will be gone before Winds finishes.

I thought I'd bring this up but does anyone else find it interesting that when we met Arianne and we see her plots hatching, it's either in a POV that is not her own (The Captain of the Guards, the Soiled Knight) or never given the proper name of Arianne (The Queenmaker, The Princess in the Tower). Dany always stays Dany. GRRM has the opportunity in ADWD to give her a new POV title to reflect the slow loss of identity. She could be The Harpy Queen for instance. But with Arianne we don't even met her for the first time in her own POV and then her proper chapters aren't "Arianne."

If the chapter titles help reflect identity and a state of mind, then does Arianne not really know who she is?

Or she's trying to be so many things at once that her identity is fractured?

Arianne's chapters in AFFC read more like short stories than some of the other POV's. But, I think your point is related to the fact that she doesn't know till the end of her final chapter of AFFC that she is the heir to Dorne. In the sample chapter, with her right to inherit established, she is once again Arianne.

[BearQueen87]

Arianne's chapters in AFFC read more like short stories than some of the other POV's. But, I think your point is related to the fact that she doesn't know till the end of her final chapter of AFFC that she is the heir to Dorne. In the sample chapter, with her right to inherit established, she is once again Arianne.

I also think it reflects that Arianne is viewed in different ways by different people. To Aero Hotah, she's "the little princess." To Arys Oakheart, she's anything but a little princess. Her constant clothing changes in the final AFFC POV "The princess in the tower" shows that she's still trying on both these roles--the seductress and the contrite apologetic daughter.

Her WOW chapter is called Arianne, though, so it's as if she has settled into her identity

[Seams]

Thank you, Queen‍‍‍‍‍‍ Alysanne‍‍. This continues to be such an interesting thread. I haven't put a lot of thought into Arianne at this point, and the comparison and contrast with Dany actually leads me to wonder whether we should be comparing Prince Doran and Dany instead of Princess Arianne and Dany.

Arianne has the best guidance of any high-born character in the series, as far as I can recall. Cersei has the chance to learn from Tywin and Asha Greyjoy has Balon, but these fathers seem so odious from the way they are presented to the reader that they might be better off as orphans. Other characters are struggling to survive without parents or without much adult guidance. I suppose Young Griff has plenty of nurturing - maybe too much - but his managers have only indirect experience in his future line of work so he still has some things to work out on his own.

I admit that Doran seems to have left Arianne out of the loop too long, causing her to become paranoid and resentful. Maybe he was too focused on his teamwork with Prince Oberyn and didn't realize that he needed to widen the circle to include others from Dorne in his long-term strategy.

I have just finished the ADWD POV where Prince Doran tells Arianne and the Sand Snakes about the ambush that would occur if Prince Trystane accompanied Myrcella from Dorne to King's Landing under Balon Swann's guidance. He tells them that he and Prince Oberyn had been a great team: Oberyn was a dragon and Doran was the grass that hides the dragon. This really struck me as Dany-related imagery: not only because of the dragon, but because Dany seems to gain strength and to rediscover herself when she goes to the Dothraki Sea, also known as the grasslands and site of the "Kingdoms of Grass." If Prince Doran is the grass that hides a dragon, this could be a hint of a future relationship with Dany, I'm thinking.

In this same conversation, Doran refers to the three oldest Sand Snakes who are present (Obara, Nymeria and Tyene) as representing valor, pride and a kind heart (it may have been a good heart - I had the CDs, so it's hard to go back to look for exact quotes). This sort of caught my ear in a new way, and I remembered Hrafntýr's good insight (post #152 on this thread) that the worm, leech, serpent and dragon are often part of a related set of symbols. Could the Sand Snakes be Dorne's equivalent of dragons? They are the daughters of the Red Viper, after all. And Prince Doran gives the three older snakes assignments to infiltrate King's Landing, so they are being used as weapons of a sort. With the death of his brother, it seems that Prince Doran has now "hatched" three new vipers to become his allies in avenging the deaths of his family.

Dead brother, grass metaphor, hatched dragons/snakes - seems like Doran is Dany's Dornish equivalent. If Dany is Nymeria 2.0, could Doran be her Mors Martell 2.0?

This leads me to agree with the comments in response to Queen Alysanne's essay that predict Arianne's death. I could be wrong, but I don't see her as having a major role to play in the wake of the failed Myrcella strategy. With the best (living) father figure and ruler role model in the series so far, I also think her future growth as a character isn't as challenging or interesting as the many orphans who are struggling to find their way without parental guidance. Sorry Arianne, but the future doesn't look bright for you.

[BearQueen87]

Dead brother, grass metaphor, hatched dragons/snakes - seems like Doran is Dany's Dornish equivalent. If Dany is Nymeria 2.0, could Doran be her Mors Martell 2.0?

Interesting idea, but I think any and all relationship development between Dany and Doran are going to come to a sudden and abrupt halt when Doran learns about Quentyn.

[MoIaF]

Great analysis Queen Alysanne

Arianne is a pretender while Dany is a contender, but as you note they do share a few things in common. Also of note is that Arianne is about 8 years older than Dany.

SeanF made a comment about their lack of education and in Dany's case she really didn't have a choice in Arianne's case even though Doran didn't have her educated for rule, I feel like if she believed she should rule she would make an effort to learn. Meereen being an anomaly but throughout Dany's story she makes an effort to learn, she's a sponge that takes everything in. She believes by right she should be queen but she also believes she should earn that right. Also, Sean you are so right about the burning bright, that will not end well for poor Arianne, not end well at all.

About the sex part, I remember in AGOT that Doreah thought Dany abotu "pillow talk" and Dany did try to use it in order to convince Drogo to invade the Seven Kingdoms, however, she wasn't very succesful. I think that's because she loved him and the pillow talk was a way to try and influence him instead of tricking him or manipulating him with it.

[Dragon's Daughter]

Interesting analysis! I had not even thought about the similarities between their brothers, due to the gap in when they take place.

The one thing I thought of that was not mentioned is that AFFC and ADWD happen concurrently. That means that under George's original, intended publication timeline that we would see Dany's plans to set things right in Mereen happening at the same time as Arianne attempting to fix what she saw as the wrongful inheritances of the Iron Throne and Dorne. Also, this would lead to an additional parallel of them being stuck. In Arianne's case, she was physically trapped in the tower because of her actions. Dany, on the other hand, was metaphorically trapped in Mereen as she tried to stabilize an area. For both women, their last chapter is also them being freed from this trap in one way or another.

[BearQueen87]

About the sex part, I remember in AGOT that Doreah thought Dany abotu "pillow talk" and Dany did try to use it in order to convince Drogo to invade the Seven Kingdoms, however, she wasn't very succesful. I think that's because she loved him and the pillow talk was a way to try and influence him instead of tricking him or manipulating him with it.

Hm. I don't quite think it's the same thing. Arianne is clearly using her sexual prowess to get Arys to do what she wants. She is actually just naked when he arrives. She got him to break his vows, she wore him down. Dany simply talks to her husband after sex. She doesn't go into the sexual encounter with the intention of making Drogo bend to her will. Afterwards she doesn't try to convince him of anything with her body; she uses words. It isn't successful because Drogo is harder (not a double entendre) than Arys and will only be convinced by a threat to Dany and their son. Sex for Drogo is different than it is to Arys as well. Drogo is just a sexual man by nature. He is faithful to Dany, so far as we know, but it's not as if he has to be. He could have any woman in his khalasaar. Arys is celibate by choice and job and Arianne uses that to her advantage--again the clothing, the flirting, the slow seduction to get him to break his vows and listen to her somewhat contrived plan.

So in short I don't think Dany's "pillow talk" is really even pillow talk--which as the connotation of cutesy and intimate conversation--but just conversation after sex.

Interesting analysis! I had not even thought about the similarities between their brothers, due to the gap in when they take place.

The one thing I thought of that was not mentioned is that AFFC and ADWD happen concurrently. That means that under George's original, intended publication timeline that we would see Dany's plans to set things right in Mereen happening at the same time as Arianne attempting to fix what she saw as the wrongful inheritances of the Iron Throne and Dorne. Also, this would lead to an additional parallel of them being stuck. In Arianne's case, she was physically trapped in the tower because of her actions. Dany, on the other hand, was metaphorically trapped in Mereen as she tried to stabilize an area. For both women, their last chapter is also them being freed from this trap in one way or another.

Good point!

[Dragon's Daughter]

Interesting idea, but I think any and all relationship development between Dany and Doran are going to come to a sudden and abrupt halt when Doran learns about Quentyn.

I agree. I think that Dorne seeming like the biggest area of potential allies for the exiled Targaryens means that we will see them play the game on opposing sides. Especially after Quentyn and with (f)Aegon coming over, I think the relationship is going to go in a drastically different direction than we have been led to believe for the majority of the novels.

[SeanF]

Arianne has the best guidance of any high-born character in the series, as far as I can recall. Cersei has the chance to learn from Tywin and Asha Greyjoy has Balon, but these fathers seem so odious from the way they are presented to the reader that they might be better off as orphans. Other characters are struggling to survive without parents or without much adult guidance. I suppose Young Griff has plenty of nurturing - maybe too much - but his managers have only indirect experience in his future line of work so he still has some things to work out on his own.

I admit that Doran seems to have left Arianne out of the loop too long, causing her to become paranoid and resentful. Maybe he was too focused on his teamwork with Prince Oberyn and didn't realize that he needed to widen the circle to include others from Dorne in his long-term strategy

The reverse, IMHO. Arianne has been given nothing of importance to do. Suddenly, she's thrown in at the deep end, once her father realises she can't marry Viserys after all.