The Parallel Journey of Daenerys Targaryen & ... Part II

[Parwan]

Go ahead and post your first essay tomorrow. Mine won't be ready and I do f want to delay the discussion any further. When I'm done with mine I'll post it.

Okay

[Parwan]

DRAGON AND WOLF

DAENERYS TARGARYEN AND EDDARD STARK

PART I

This is the first of three essays on Eddard Stark and Daenerys Targaryen. I’ll set the stage by developing a view of Westeros generally. I’ll show how the two people fit into the overall picture. The first essay will have more to say about how Dany and Ned differ, the last two will show how they are similar.

All of the essays will mention many players of the “game.” Although we’ll be primarily concerned with Dany and Ned, we won’t be able to see them properly without asking some large questions. One of these questions is: When so many powerful players are supposedly acting for “the realm,” why is it that so many of them are intent upon causing maximum destruction right at the time that a horrible winter is set to wreak its own suffering?

BASIC DIFFERENCES

From the beginning of the story, the differences between the two characters are apparent. Lord Eddard is a middle-aged man, and Princess Daenerys is a young woman. The Starks were on the winning side in Robert’s Rebellion. The head of the family is Lord of Winterfell and Warden of the North. Dany and her brother are in exile in Essos. The Targaryens still have some friends, but perhaps that word should be put in quotes. Certainly, Daenerys is aware of the doubtful loyalty of their Pentosi host. We learn this quickly in her first POV: “He had friends in all the nine Free Cities, it was said,..It was also said that he had never had a friend he wouldn’t cheerfully sell for the right price.” We also learn how abusive her brother Viserys is: “You don’t want to wake the dragon, do you?” There is no doubt about the loyalty of the Winterfell men, and Lord Eddard has a loving family.

PROBLEMS, DEFICIENCIES

The realm is a country faced with existential threats—from the north, from the east, and from the weather. The leaders are not responding well; sometimes they are not responding at all. Different men and women can be blamed for this in different ways. Not everyone is equally guilty. It is a systemic problem.* I say that every high lord has some degree of guilt as part of a ruling class that is not fulfilling its basic function of defending the kingdom. This collective responsibility is significant. More important to us in this thread, however, is Lord Eddard’s particular situation.

Eddard Stark is a good man in a male dominated society. Thus, it is not surprising that he has a strong tendency to over-protect and underestimate females. We see this when the king asks the Hand if he knows that Catelyn has taken the Imp prisoner. “I do,” Lord Stark replies. “My lady wife is blameless. All she did she did at my command.” This, of course, is a lie. No doubt, the Lord of Winterfell thinks the lie is justified because he is defending the honor of his lady. She is a dutiful wife.

Unfortunately, we see the same thing in Ned’s assumption that Cersei Lannister will take her children and flee when the Hand of the King tells her that he knows her secret. On the day of Robert’s death, Eddard rises to the thunder of hoofbeats. Lannister guardsmen are drilling in the yard below his window. Clearly, Cersei hasn’t gone anywhere. “Damn her, he thought, why is the woman not fled? I have given her chance after chance.” Not only does this ignore the Queen’s clear warning to him. It overlooks unfortunate facts: Jon Arryn is dead. Robert Baratheon is dead. Even Ser Hugh of the Vale is dead. Lord Eddard Stark seems incapable of realizing how perilous his position is. Attitudes like the ones Lord Stark displays can lead to trouble. And there is a great deal of trouble brewing for the Seven Kingdoms.

One criticism of Dany that has some legitimacy is that she does not know much about Westeros. It isn’t accurate to say that the young woman doesn’t try to learn. However, she has little info on how to deal with different houses. She does not appear to know anything about the challenge of long winters or about the return of the Others. This ignorance is a disadvantage. Given that two potential leaders have equal inborn skills and weaknesses, the one who has better information will probably do a better job. However, it isn’t impossible to turn the argument on its head. The dragon queen isn’t as bad as some leaders and potential leaders. In matters like the severe decline of the Night’s Watch, she isn’t negligent. She just hasn’t acquired the facts.

Insofar as the leaders of the realm are ignorant of the existential dangers, this should be seen as a mostly willful ignorance. Important men in the Seven Kingdoms do not know a lot of important facts. This is because they do not wish to know these facts.* The “eight thousand years gone” argument, favored by the maesters and others, is full of holes. The idea that magic has departed from the world, pushed by pretty much the same group, would not be accepted by anyone who looked at the state of the world carefully and with an open mind. Few in Westeros do such looking. Many share Tyrion Lannister’s sneering opinions about grumkins and snarks, a view which displays both ignorance and arrogance. Lord Stark is not guilty of the latter sin. And the Starks know about trouble with the weather. I’m not sure they have any way of telling whether the coming winter will be worse than usual.

As Warden of the North, Eddard is aware that things aren’t going well with the Watch, though he is unable/unwilling to see the full nature of the problem. This is apparent in his sympathetic but somewhat condescending reply to his wife. Catelyn says, “There are darker things beyond the Wall.” Ned replies, “‘You listen to too many of Old Nan’s stories..” There is also the irony of the lord’s statement about the Others—“No living man has seen one.” Yeah well, if you keep beheading guys who have seen them, then you might be able to make your assertion true. Note that I’m not saying that the warden was unjust in his action. I am saying that he did not analyze the matter carefully and with an open mind. According to the law, Gared had to be executed. Okay, but the man was a ranger. If Ned didn’t know that Gared was one of the toughest and most experienced men of his sort, then it would not have been hard to find this out. How likely was it that the guy cracked so badly simply because of a wildling ambush? Not very likely at all. This is just one issue which, if well analyzed, would have shown that the trouble beyond the Wall was far more than the difficulties that could be caused by Mance Rayder.

As we go further south, the failure of basic governance of the realm grows more obvious. The “leaders” in King’s Landing are too involved in sleaze balling and back stabbing to devote much time to the looming threats. Indeed, the spy master, the guy who is supposed to inform everyone about dangers to the 7K, is trying to arrange an invasion by a group of horsemen from Essos who will undoubtedly kill and rape their way across Westeros. The person at the center of all this is Eddard’s friend Robert, a Good Time Charley who has some virtues, but is in no way a man suited to the Iron Throne. When Lord Eddard tries to bring up the subject of the sad shape of the NW and the threats from beyond the Wall, the king shows no interest. After all, these matters don’t have anything to do with getting drunk or getting laid.

It is not surprising that, before the end of AGoT, powerful men in the 7K will start killing peasants, burning crops, and destroying holdfasts just a bit before the lakes start freezing and the snow starts falling in earnest. King Bob and his Hand, each in his own way, contribute to the problems that lead to this result. You can’t legitimately say that Eddard causes any of the problems. He does not react to them well however. He often doesn’t see them, even when they are right in front of him.

THREAT FROM THE EAST

Interestingly, Robert is right about one matter. There is serious danger in the Targaryen-Dothraki marriage pact. In part, the king’s decision (and the small council’s) to proceed with the assassination is right for the wrong reasons. No one could have imagined that a “young girl” would bring dragons back into the world. In another way, though, Robert Baratheon and his advisers underrated a clear danger. The friends (or “friends”) of the Targaryens in Essos are not sincere or trustworthy, but they are rich and powerful. When they help arrange a marriage or provide room and board for two young people, they do so for a reason. This reason is most likely that they believe their actions will make them even more rich and powerful.

The fellows at the betrothal party in Pentos aren’t there just to drink wine of a superior vintage and dine on high quality dishes featuring Muenster and Gouda. There’s something in the deal for them. At the least, they want to be in the know. Possibly, they think they might profit from a Targaryen restoration. As readers, we know that a lot is going on in the east—there was a secret marriage contract agreed to by Oberyn Martell and Willem Derry and witnessed by the Sealord of Bravos, the Targaryen “girl” was given dragon eggs at her wedding, the cheese merchant is in active collusion with the spider, etc. It’s not necessary for the powers-that-be in King’s Landing to know these details. A reasonable amount of thinking would have led them to conclude that something more was involved with the Dany-Drogo arrangement than the marriage of a “girl” and a “savage.”

Lord Stark is an important government official, but he is new to the job of Hand. He doesn’t bear as much responsibility as the men who have been in the government for many years. These guys have been thoroughly taken in by a eunuch for whom they have no respect (or at least insufficient respect.) And they certainly do a poor job of analyzing things and considering their options. Robert accuses Eddard of giving lousy advice:

“So you would counsel me to do nothing until this dragonspawn has landed his army only my shores, is that it?”

That is not the only alternative. The small council should have done a lot more to find out exactly what the hell was going on. They should have considered the motives of the Assosi merchants. What men favor the Targaryens and why? Earlier, the king had told his Hand, “There are still those in the Seven Kingdoms who call me Usurper.” And do the Essossi notables have better, kinder names for Robert? What do they expect to get out of the deal? What sort of plots might they be hatching, and how far are they willing to go with their Targaryen support? All kinds of people in KL spend time spying on each other, betraying each other, screwing each other (usually figuratively, but sometimes literally). But in gathering intelligence concerning matters of critical importance to the realm, they put all their trust in a despised foreigner. In truth, there are powerful fellows at Drogo’s manse not only from Essos, but also from the Summer Isles and the Port of Ibben. The party was hardly a secret, and it wouldn’t have taken a master spy to get basic info.

In addition to sharing in the collective deficiencies of his class and his government, Lord Eddard Stark has a special weakness. It’s the attitude I mentioned earlier—a tendency to over-protect and underestimate women. He doesn’t see Daenerys Targaryen as a threat. I don’t think it’s unfair to say that he probably can’t see her as a threat.

Ned and Barristan are honorable men. They find the idea of assassinating a pregnant woman repugnant; that is the way any good man would look on the matter. Eddard, however, holds to the same argument that he used with Robert earlier: “…the girl is little more than a child,” he claimed in his second POV of AGoT. He doesn’t want her to be dangerous, so he has a hard time seeing her as dangerous.

Even limited to the information that the king and his advisers have, it’s clear that the Hand’s argument is weak. If the young Targaryen female is married, pregnant, and capable of bearing a son for a strong barbarian chief, the leaders of the 7K should not accept the assertion that “You are talking of murdering a child.” Also, there is Viserys to consider. The small council does not know that the young man is a wimp. Robert seemed worried about him earlier. Why stop worrying now?** It appears that whatever anti-Baratheon schemes are being developed in Essos, they are progressing well. There’s no reason to accept the Hand’s opinion that any threat is, at worst, many years away.

SUMMARY AND QUICK VIEW OF THINGS TO COME

We can consider three large threats to the realm. Two of them are apparent at the beginning of AGoT. They are quite relevant to Eddard Stark’s story, and to Dany’s:

1. The threat from the north. Eddard, though more aware of this than other men, does not appreciate its nature and extent. Daenerys doesn’t know anything about it.

2. The threat from the east. Eddard underestimates this threat. Daenerys is part of it, but she is far from knowing all about it.

The third develops over the course of the book. Lord Eddard’s story comes to an end before things begin to look truly frightening:

3. The approach of a fierce and terrible winter. The high lords never make adequate adjustments to their plans. They never seriously consider the possibility that peace under a less-than-ideal leader might be preferable to continued war aimed at putting the “true king” in power. Again, Dany is ignorant in this matter.

Dany and Ned are creatures of their time and their place. Like most important characters in ASoIaF, they put too much emphasis on the idea that there is exactly and precisely one correct ruler, and that this ruler must be placed on the throne.The two characters have other similarities, not necessarily common among Westerosi aristocrats. Both Lord Stark and Queen Daenerys make major blunders in dealing with enemies. They sometimes trust the wrong people. They have an admirable but occasionally problematic tendency to “protect the children.”

We’ll investigate these issues in the next essays. We'll also talk about the interconnections of various themes--for example, paternalism, the tendency to put too much emphasis on the leader, and the problem of ignoring serious threats.

.....................................

* In an interview, Martin had this to say about the problem:

“You know, one of the dynamics I started with, there was the sense of people being so consumed by their petty struggles for power within the seven kingdoms…that they’re blind to the much greater and more dangerous threats that are happening far away on the periphery of their kingdoms.”

You can find the interview at

http://america.aljazeera.com/watch/shows/talk-to-al-jazeera/articles/2014/11/13/george-rr-martintalkstodavidshuster.html

** Recently, I participated in a thread where it was suggested that Jorah could have informed Varys that Viserys was no threat to the throne. This is possible, though nothing in the text confirms it. At any rate, it wouldn’t change my analysis. Jonah certainly didn’t send his opinion of Viserys to Lord Eddard. Thus, the Hand did not have a basis for saying that the problem under discussion was “Only the shadow of a shadow, twenty years removed…if it exists at all.”

[SeanF]

Very nice.

WRT the assassination, Westeros is a society whose outlook on right and wrong revolves around honour. Murdering a pregnant 14 year old is dishonourable conduct on the part of a warrior, whatever the pragmatic arguments that can be marshalled in favour of it. You refrain from such behaviour less because you see Dany as a person with rights, and more because it's despicable conduct, for a man who's capable of bearing arms to kill a girl. Ned's arguments would resonate with most men of his class, although clearly, there are enough of them who are prepared to act dishonourably, in pursuit of their own interests. At the same time, Ned knows that appeals to honour won't be enough, on their own, to sway the other members of the Small Council. Hence, he resorts to pragmatic arguments which are pretty weak.

I'd see Ned's taking on the responsibility for Catelyn's arrest of Tyrion in the same light. It's not so much that he underrates Catelyn (after all, he appointed her to govern the North in his absence) as he sees it as the honourable course of action for a husband to take responsibility for wife's actions, rather than letting the blame fall on her. Likewise, his refusal to let Catelyn know the truth about Jon's parentage. If he were to tell her, he'd be making her his accomplice in the commission of high treason.

Paradoxically, it was the failed assassination attempt that set in motion the train of events that converted Dany from being an ineffectual enemy to the Baratheon/Lannister dynasty, to being a real challenger for the Iron Throne. Illyrio's plan seems to have been for Viserys, ten thousand Dothraki, and the Golden Company to invade Westeros, which could have posed a real challenge to the government. (As you say, the broad outline of this plan should have been fairly easy for the government in Kings Landing to find out). The lords and inhabitants of the Crownlands might very well have risen in support of Viserys. But, the Dothraki got the measure of him very quickly, and Drogo seems to have had no intention of putting his men under Viserys' command. But, once Viserys was killed, and the assassination attempt failed, Drogo's attention turned Westward.

[Parwan]

Very nice.

WRT the assassination, Westeros is a society whose outlook on right and wrong revolves around honour. Murdering a pregnant 14 year old is dishonourable conduct on the part of a warrior, whatever the pragmatic arguments that can be marshalled in favour of it. You refrain from such behaviour less because you see Dany as a person with rights, and more because it's despicable conduct, for a man who's capable of bearing arms to kill a girl. Ned's arguments would resonate with most men of his class, although clearly, there are enough of them who are prepared to act dishonourably, in pursuit of their own interests. At the same time, Ned knows that appeals to honour won't be enough, on their own, to sway the other members of the Small Council. Hence, he resorts to pragmatic arguments which are pretty weak.

I'd see Ned's taking on the responsibility for Catelyn's arrest of Tyrion in the same light. It's not so much that he underrates Catelyn (after all, he appointed her to govern the North in his absence) as he sees it as the honourable course of action for a husband to take responsibility for wife's actions, rather than letting the blame fall on her. Likewise, his refusal to let Catelyn know the truth about Jon's parentage. If he were to tell her, he'd be making her his accomplice in the commission of high treason.

...

I'm not sure whether or not there's much disagreement between us on these matters. It would depend on the exact meaning of phrases like "tendency to over-protect and underestimate females" and "dishonourable conduct on the part of a warrior." I don't see your phrasing of things as being necessarily in conflict with mine, but there could be significant differences. In my opinion, Barristan, Eddard, and just about all the lords and knights of Westeros would think of men when they use the term "warrior." They would find it unusual, for some fellows pretty near unthinkable, to conceive of the woman as the person with the sword and the man as the person in need of defense. Thus, I wold say that their concept of honor is quite likely to lead them to over-protect and underestimate women, at least certain women.

There are definitely differences among men and among different kingdoms. I don't want to go too far afield and discuss places like Dorne. Keeping things closer to the central points of this thread, I'll bring up Brynden Tully. When Cat arrives in the Vale, we get this exchange between her and her uncle:

"So, child. Tell me about this storm of yours."

"I have not been a child in many years, Uncle," Catelyn said, but she told him nonetheless.

Later, Ser Bryndan begins to hesitantly express his misgivings about Lady Lysa.

"I believe your sister intends to rule herself until her boy is old enough to be Lord of the Eyrie in truth as well as in name."

"A woman can rule as wisely as a man," Catelyn said.

"The right woman can," her uncle said with a sideways glance. "Make no mistake, Cat. Lysa is not you."

Neither the Blackfish nor the Lord of Winterfell would think adult women should be treated as infants. Both of them would agree that the right woman could rule under certain circumstances. I'm quite confident, however, that Brynden Tully would never address any adult male, close relative or otherwise, who had three sons and two daughters as "child." Catelyn corrects him the first time. But he continues to do this in AGoT and in ACoK. She makes no further comment on his choice of vocabulary. In a similar vein, I don't believe that Lord Eddard would say that it would be "the honourable course of action" for a wife to take responsibility for a husband's deeds.

Part of Ned's severely negative reaction to the proposal to assassinate Dany is her youth. How much different would it have been if she had been 25 and not pregnant? We can't know for sure. In my opinion, the difference would have been there, but not that great.

[SeanF]

I'm not sure whether or not there's much disagreement between us on these matters. It would depend on the exact meaning of phrases like "tendency to over-protect and underestimate females" and "dishonourable conduct on the part of a warrior." I don't see your phrasing of things as being necessarily in conflict with mine, but there could be significant differences. In my opinion, Barristan, Eddard, and just about all the lords and knights of Westeros would think of men when they use the term "warrior." They would find it unusual, for some fellows pretty near unthinkable, to conceive of the woman as the person with the sword and the man as the person in need of defense. Thus, I wold say that their concept of honor is quite likely to lead them to over-protect and underestimate women, at least certain women.

There are definitely differences among men and among different kingdoms. I don't want to go too far afield and discuss places like Dorne. Keeping things closer to the central points of this thread, I'll bring up Brynden Tully. When Cat arrives in the Vale, we get this exchange between her and her uncle:

Later, Ser Bryndan begins to hesitantly express his misgivings about Lady Lysa.

Neither the Blackfish nor the Lord of Winterfell would think adult women should be treated as infants. Both of them would agree that the right woman could rule under certain circumstances. I'm quite confident, however, that Brynden Tully would never address any adult male, close relative or otherwise, who had three sons and two daughters as "child." Catelyn corrects him the first time. But he continues to do this in AGoT and in ACoK. She makes no further comment on his choice of vocabulary. In a similar vein, I don't believe that Lord Eddard would say that it would be "the honourable course of action" for a wife to take responsibility for a husband's deeds.

Part of Ned's severely negative reaction to the proposal to assassinate Dany is her youth. How much different would it have been if she had been 25 and not pregnant? We can't know for sure. In my opinion, the difference would have been there, but not that great.

I felt exactly as Ned did towards the proposal to assassinate Daenerys, when I read it for the first time, despite growing up in a different world. At an emotional level, the proposed murder of a 14 year old girl just comes over as revolting, however strong the pragmatic arguments may be in favour of it (and unfortunately, Varys does make a number of good points, during the course of the discussion). In the unlikely event that I was in a similar position, I hope I'd say and do the same (telling Robert to do it himself, hear her last words, see her tears). Ethically, there's no real difference between a proposal to assassinate Daenerys, and a proposal to assassinate Viserys, but somehow it feels worse.

Moral philosophers make fun of the "yuck" factor, but sometimes I think the yuck factor can keep one from falling into real evil.

It's similar to my reaction to the use of torture in the series. One ought to view the torture of men and women as equally bad, from an ethical point of view. From an emotional point of view, I feel worse about the torture of women.

[Suzanna Stormborn]

DRAGON AND WOLF

DAENERYS TARGARYEN AND EDDARD STARK

PART I

THREAT FROM THE EAST

Interestingly, Robert is right about one matter. There is serious danger in the Targaryen-Dothraki marriage pact. In part, the king’s decision (and the small council’s) to proceed with the assassination is right for the wrong reasons. No one could have imagined that a “young girl” would bring dragons back into the world. In another way, though, Robert Baratheon and his advisers underrated a clear danger. The friends (or “friends”) of the Targaryens in Essos are not sincere or trustworthy, but they are rich and powerful. When they help arrange a marriage or provide room and board for two young people, they do so for a reason. This reason is most likely that they believe their actions will make them even more rich and powerful.

The fellows at the betrothal party in Pentos aren’t there just to drink wine of a superior vintage and dine on high quality dishes featuring Muenster and Gouda. There’s something in the deal for them. At the least, they want to be in the know. Possibly, they think they might profit from a Targaryen restoration. As readers, we know that a lot is going on in the east—there was a secret marriage contract agreed to by Oberyn Martell and Willem Derry and witnessed by the Sealord of Bravos, the Targaryen “girl” was given dragon eggs at her wedding, the cheese merchant is in active collusion with the spider, etc. It’s not necessary for the powers-that-be in King’s Landing to know these details. A reasonable amount of thinking would have led them to conclude that something more was involved with the Dany-Drogo arrangement than the marriage of a “girl” and a “savage.”

Lord Stark is an important government official, but he is new to the job of Hand. He doesn’t bear as much responsibility as the men who have been in the government for many years. These guys have been thoroughly taken in by a eunuch for whom they have no respect (or at least insufficient respect.) And they certainly do a poor job of analyzing things and considering their options. Robert accuses Eddard of giving lousy advice:

“So you would counsel me to do nothing until this dragonspawn has landed his army only my shores, is that it?”

That is not the only alternative. The small council should have done a lot more to find out exactly what the hell was going on. They should have considered the motives of the Assosi merchants. What men favor the Targaryens and why? Earlier, the king had told his Hand, “There are still those in the Seven Kingdoms who call me Usurper.” And do the Essossi notables have better, kinder names for Robert? What do they expect to get out of the deal? What sort of plots might they be hatching, and how far are they willing to go with their Targaryen support? All kinds of people in KL spend time spying on each other, betraying each other, screwing each other (usually figuratively, but sometimes literally). But in gathering intelligence concerning matters of critical importance to the realm, they put all their trust in a despised foreigner. In truth, there are powerful fellows at Drogo’s manse not only from Essos, but also from the Summer Isles and the Port of Ibben. The party was hardly a secret, and it wouldn’t have taken a master spy to get basic info.

Excellent Essay Parwan!!!

You are so good at cutting down to what's important in any situation. I completely agree with all that you said. I think it was very stupid of the lords of Westeros to not be more informed about what was going on in Pentos during GOT. For instance at Dany and Drogo's wedding, simply finding out the guest list would have been invaluable information. Like you said, maybe there are a few things Jorah told Varys that we dont know of, perhaps since Varys was working both sides he chose to withhold whatever he wanted from Robert and the Small council, actually this is almost certainly true. But like you said it is still the stupidity of Robert, Ned and small council to depend 100% on The Spider for all information on their enemies, he is a foreigner with questionable loyalties and motives at best.. At the wedding someone should have taken note on who brokered it and for what reason, like the green-haired Achon of Tyrosh's brother, hello!!!! This guy and his family have been involved with the Blackfyre's for years. They helped (with Aegon IV) facilitate the marriage between Dameon Blackfyre and Rohanne of Tyrosh, certainly Dameon's children had many connections to the Archon's family. The Archon's daughter was also a friend of Arianne, she was sent to live in Dorne as a child. Rohanne had 7 sons and 2 daughters with Dameon....... And now a few generations down the Archon's brother is hanging out with Illyrio (the later descendant of Dameon Blackfyre)! This information alone would have been paramount to the small council and Robert had they taken the time to look into it properly. What if Robert had realized that marriage was practically the beginning of the next Blackfyre rebellion?

[Seams]

Very interesting and thought-provoking, Parwan. I would not have approached the Dany/Ned connection from the angles you chose, which makes your analysis all the more interesting and challenging to me.

I don't see Ned as a guy who feels women in general are confined to traditional "feminine" roles or that they need protecting. His willingness to arrange secret sword fighting lessons for Arya, under the guise of dancing lessons, would be my first point in arguing for a more broad-minded view. Even though he was away in the Vale for a long time, he must have also known of his sister's tomboyish approach to life. As the warden of the north, he probably frequently interacted with Maege Mormont, so he knows that a woman can be both a mother and a lord and warrior.

Ned's failure to anticipate Cersei's counterattack after he confronts her about the paternity of her children has less to do with his attitude toward women, I think, and more to do with his naive expectation that others will act with honor. The motive of obtaining power is also outside his understanding: why would anyone want to be a king? He simply does not "get" the Lannister mindset about clawing toward power and toward the top of the heap, no matter what.

Since this essay focused on the differences between Ned and Dany, and you are waiting for the next essay to begin analyzing similarities, I will try to hold off on the similarities I find interesting. One shared aspect of their stories can be both compared and contrasted, however, and it is a major theme of the series, so it might be worth bringing up now: brotherhood. Dany and Ned's paths are set for them because of the actions of their brothers and so-called brother (Robert). Ned does not want to be Hand of the King, but he cannot turn down Robert's request. When he arrives at King's Landing, he discovers that Robert has spent the kingdom into deep debt. Dany does not want to obey her brother's order to be married off to a Dothraki stranger; she wants to find and return to the house with the red door. Furthermore, Ned wouldn't even be Lord of Winterfell, and Dany wouldn't be in exile with Viserys, if Brandon and Rhaegar hadn't chosen paths that led to their deaths.

But Brandon and Robert are not Rhaegar or Viserys: Viserys dies with his molten golden crown because he was greedy, impatient and because he roughly handled Dany. Robert is greedy and foolhardy, but his death is only part treachery, with a wild animal providing the coup de grace. (Robert did roughly handle Cersei, so maybe that is a parallel between him and Viserys.) Ned is oblivious about Robert's vulnerability until after the king returns from hunting already suffering with his fatal wound. Dany is complicit in Viserys' death after trying and failing to get him to change his ways and after realizing that her own baby is more important to her now than trying to please a brother who will never be pleased with her. Ned is put at risk because of Robert's death while Dany gains power after the death of Viserys.

Your good analysis of the spy efforts (or lack thereof) of the small council and Robert's regime are giving me lots of food for thought. Ned goes from the North, where he can spend time outdoors in the Godswood, to the closed rooms, "hold fast" and complicated secret tunnels of King's Landing. Dany learns to appreciate the Dothraki life out in the open and under the stars. Spies are not needed as much, perhaps, when everything is out in the open. Ned doesn't learn that lesson soon enough; Dany is learning that life in each conquered city is much more complex and perilous than was most of her interlude on the Dothraki Sea. It seems like the contrast between nature and city is an area rich for discussion in Ned and Dany's story lines.

[BearQueen87]

DRAGON AND WOLF

DAENERYS TARGARYEN AND EDDARD STARK

PART I

Parwan this was excellent. I am really looking forward to more since Dany and Ned are two of my favorite characters.

Eddard Stark is a good man in a male dominated society. Thus, it is not surprising that he has a strong tendency to over-protect and underestimate females. We see this when the king asks the Hand if he knows that Catelyn has taken the Imp prisoner. “I do,” Lord Stark replies. “My lady wife is blameless. All she did she did at my command.” This, of course, is a lie. No doubt, the Lord of Winterfell thinks the lie is justified because he is defending the honor of his lady. She is a dutiful wife.

Interesting point. When looked at with the rest of the Westerosi high lords, Ned's a bit more liberal in his approach to women (he wants Cat to prepare Robb to be the Lord of Winterfell while he goes South to be the Hand of the King) but when looked just on his own, Ned does have some of those classic male centric tendencies. You point out Cat and the above quote, but we could also use his own daughters: Arya is a bit of a mystery to him--too much like Brandon and Lyanna, his siblings. He thinks that Arya will marry a king someday and rule a keep and raise children, something Arya turns her nose up at and declares "No. That's Sansa." a daughter that Ned "understands" a bit more perhaps given that Sansa is more in line with traditional Westerosi ideals for young maidens, at least in AGOT.

Lyanna is another example. Ned helps arrange a marriage between her and Robert without regard for the fact that Lyanna doesn't really want to marry Robert. Lyanna is too independent, too much wild wolf blood in her and in Ned's eyes, that led her to an early grave.

Lord Eddard Stark seems incapable of realizing how perilous his position is. Attitudes like the ones Lord Stark displays can lead to trouble. And there is a great deal of trouble brewing for the Seven Kingdoms.

Ned constantly thinks that something will protect him--his relationship with Robert, Robert's last will and testament, his agreement with Cersei to take the black if he confesses to be a traitor. Ned often has trouble seeing things for what they are. Cat even reminds him once WRT Robert, "you knew the boy. But do you know the man?" (may be a paraphrase...). The will of a King is supposed to be binding and honored because it was from the king, but at the end of the day, it's a piece of paper and can easily be ignored or destroyed. Promises can be broken (something Ned Stark has a hard time doing and living with...it's one of the biggest themes of his very short arc).

She does not appear to know anything about the challenge of long winters or about the return of the Others. This ignorance is a disadvantage. Given that two potential leaders have equal inborn skills and weaknesses, the one who has better information will probably do a better job. However, it isn’t impossible to turn the argument on its head. The dragon queen isn’t as bad as some leaders and potential leaders. In matters like the severe decline of the Night’s Watch, she isn’t negligent. She just hasn’t acquired the facts.

This is a very good point. And its hard to say how Dany will rule or react once she gathers and acquires the facts. It could be that she does a poor job of handling the situation--it is a distinct possibility--but given that Martin's characters grow and evolve and more importantly, LEARN, I think it's far more likely that with the properly gathered facts and with others around to advise her (and not in a selfish way like Reznak and the Shavepate) Dany could do quite well in Westeros with the Long Winter and the Others. And, it really can't be stressed enough that, similar to in Slaver's Bay and slavery, this current situation of the rise of the Others and the coming of the Long Night has never been dealt with in living memory. Slavery has been around for a very long time with no one in living memory trying to overturn it, that we know of, and obviously no one was ever successful if they tried. The Others are so far removed from living memory that they are now myth instead of reality to most of Westeros, the NW being the exception and even Jeor Mormont admits to Jon Snow that the NW has forgotten their true purpose because of how long it has been.

My point is that I think it's unfair to say that Dany would do a poor job WRT the Long Night and the Others because of "inexperience" because no one has experience in these matters and those that do--like Jon and the men of the Night's Watch--are literally learning on their feet as it happens.

The “eight thousand years gone” argument, favored by the maesters and others, is full of holes. The idea that magic has departed from the world, pushed by pretty much the same group, would not be accepted by anyone who looked at the state of the world carefully and with an open mind.

Full of holes and full of agenda, if you want to believe that the higher up Maesters of the Citadel are planning something that will eradicate magic for good.

I am saying that he did not analyze the matter carefully and with an open mind. According to the law, Gared had to be executed. Okay, but the man was a ranger. If Ned didn’t know that Gared was one of the toughest and most experienced men of his sort, then it would not have been hard to find this out. How likely was it that the guy cracked so badly simply because of a wildling ambush? Not very likely at all. This is just one issue which, if well analyzed, would have shown that the trouble beyond the Wall was far more than the difficulties that could be caused by Mance Rayder.

Agreed. And unlike other Lords of Westeros, Ned has access to something--or rather someone--when situations like Gared arise: BEN. It might take a short time, but ravens go to the Wall from WF. We know because Ben is at WF for Robert's arrival, Ned has asked him to come. Why not put Gared in WF's prison for a short time and send for Ben (or just a letter) asking what is going on. And if Ben won't do because he's out on a mission, then why not Lord Commander Jeor Mormont even, a man of the North who, prior to taking the Black, was sworn to House Stark? Even if Commander Mormont says "execute him; he speaks nonsense" Ned should at least try to get into contact with the NW if only to say that he was open minded about everything the deserter was telling him.

That is not the only alternative. The small council should have done a lot more to find out exactly what the hell was going on. They should have considered the motives of the Assosi merchants. What men favor the Targaryens and why? Earlier, the king had told his Hand, “There are still those in the Seven Kingdoms who call me Usurper.”

Makes me wonder two things:

1) What exactly was Jorah telling Varys?

2) What was Varys passing along and what was he keeping to himself?

The small council has a spy who is not only inside the ranks of the new Khaleesi, but very close to her--more than a guard, instead he has become a friend and adviser. And yet....the small council seems to be lacking in information about what's going on. Now, a lot of that is probably due to Varys keeping silent and only feeding Robert bits and pieces but at the same time, no one bothers to learn more? They rely to much on Varys as someone (is it Ned himself...or Cersei?) says.

n addition to sharing in the collective deficiencies of his class and his government, Lord Eddard Stark has a special weakness. It’s the attitude I mentioned earlier—a tendency to over-protect and underestimate women. He doesn’t see Daenerys Targaryen as a threat. I don’t think it’s unfair to say that he probably can’t see her as a threat.

Ah yes. But I'd point out that Ned's attitude to Daenerys isn't just because she's a woman. It has a lot to do with the greatest secret Ned has under his hat: that for the past 14 years he has been housing and raising Rhaegar Targaryen's last living (probably legitimate) son, who goes by the name of Jon Snow. If Robert is eager to kill Dany because she is Rhaegar's sister and dragonspawn, whatever will King Bobby B do to Rhaegar's son?

They have an admirable but occasionally problematic tendency to “protect the children.

Yup. I look forward to reading your next essay because I think the above is probably their biggest similarity.

[BearQueen87]

I felt exactly as Ned did towards the proposal to assassinate Daenerys, when I read it for the first time, despite growing up in a different world. At an emotional level, the proposed murder of a 14 year old girl just comes over as revolting, however strong the pragmatic arguments may be in favour of it (and unfortunately, Varys does make a number of good points, during the course of the discussion). In the unlikely event that I was in a similar position, I hope I'd say and do the same (telling Robert to do it himself, hear her last words, see her tears). Ethically, there's no real difference between a proposal to assassinate Daenerys, and a proposal to assassinate Viserys, but somehow it feels worse.

Moral philosophers make fun of the "yuck" factor, but sometimes I think the yuck factor can keep one from falling into real evil.

It's similar to my reaction to the use of torture in the series. One ought to view the torture of men and women as equally bad, from an ethical point of view. From an emotional point of view, I feel worse about the torture of women.

I think that's true, and I think it goes with what Parwan was saying up above about women and children. They are often lumped together. You have "menfolk" and then you have "women and children" the latter including males if they are under a certain age. Men are supposed to be able to "handle" more because society (specifically male society) is supposed to protect women and children, a sentiment that is troubling except that you're right: violence toward women and child feels different than when we read/talk about it WRT men.

Very interesting and thought-provoking, Parwan. I would not have approached the Dany/Ned connection from the angles you chose, which makes your analysis all the more interesting and challenging to me.

I don't see Ned as a guy who feels women in general are confined to traditional "feminine" roles or that they need protecting. His willingness to arrange secret sword fighting lessons for Arya, under the guise of dancing lessons, would be my first point in arguing for a more broad-minded view. Even though he was away in the Vale for a long time, he must have also known of his sister's tomboyish approach to life. As the warden of the north, he probably frequently interacted with Maege Mormont, so he knows that a woman can be both a mother and a lord and warrior.

I would agree with the bolded but like I said in my own response to Parwan, it's like Ned doesn't "understand" Arya even though he grants her the sword lessons. He loves his child and wants her to be happy but he still thinks that she will marry a king and have babies: wife and mother, the two things a woman should be in Westeros.

It seems like the contrast between nature and city is an area rich for discussion in Ned and Dany's story lines.

WF and the Dothraki Sea are both on the "nature' side of things. Both are places where Ned and Dany, respectively, can be at peace because the rest of the world is "elsewhere." It's when they enter the city life that things begin to go awry, be it King's Landing or Qarth or the three cities of Slaver's Bay.

[Parwan]

I felt exactly as Ned did towards the proposal to assassinate Daenerys, when I read it for the first time, despite growing up in a different world. At an emotional level, the proposed murder of a 14 year old girl just comes over as revolting, however strong the pragmatic arguments may be in favour of it (and unfortunately, Varys does make a number of good points, during the course of the discussion). In the unlikely event that I was in a similar position, I hope I'd say and do the same (telling Robert to do it himself, hear her last words, see her tears). Ethically, there's no real difference between a proposal to assassinate Daenerys, and a proposal to assassinate Viserys, but somehow it feels worse.

Moral philosophers make fun of the "yuck" factor, but sometimes I think the yuck factor can keep one from falling into real evil.

It's similar to my reaction to the use of torture in the series. One ought to view the torture of men and women as equally bad, from an ethical point of view. From an emotional point of view, I feel worse about the torture of women.

A few comments:

• I also believe and hope I'd vote as Eddard and Barristan do.

This is some good writing on GRRM's part. Unfortunately, two of the least admirable characters make some good points. It's not just that I don't want to agree with them. I can really feel the unctuous nature of Varys's comments, the pseudo sincerity. Pycelle is interesting, unintentionally interesting: "Once I counseled King Aerys as loyally as I counsel King Robert now..." Yeah, right. As one reviewer said, that's one of those statements that's a lie, but not factually inaccurate. The man's advice was worth as much in both cases.

The scene pulls on me in other ways. Though I think I'd vote as Barristan and Eddard do, I'd make different arguments. I think my arguments would be "better," but this is a debatable matter. Just what does "better" mean? Could I really expect the two men to make arguments similar to the ones I'd use? They are men of their time and place. Lord Stark's points were weak, as I said above. I don't blame him too much though.

Eddard couldn't have had much hope that Varys and Littlefinger would vote with him. He was disappointed with Robert, and probably with Renly.

I don't think Dany would have voted to assassinate a pregnant enemy.

Very interesting and thought-provoking, Parwan. I would not have approached the Dany/Ned connection from the angles you chose, which makes your analysis all the more interesting and challenging to me.

I don't see Ned as a guy who feels women in general are confined to traditional "feminine" roles or that they need protecting. His willingness to arrange secret sword fighting lessons for Arya, under the guise of dancing lessons, would be my first point in arguing for a more broad-minded view. Even though he was away in the Vale for a long time, he must have also known of his sister's tomboyish approach to life. As the warden of the north, he probably frequently interacted with Maege Mormont, so he knows that a woman can be both a mother and a lord and warrior.

Ned's failure to anticipate Cersei's counterattack after he confronts her about the paternity of her children has less to do with his attitude toward women, I think, and more to do with his naive expectation that others will act with honor. The motive of obtaining power is also outside his understanding: why would anyone want to be a king? He simply does not "get" the Lannister mindset about clawing toward power and toward the top of the heap, no matter what.

Since this essay focused on the differences between Ned and Dany, and you are waiting for the next essay to begin analyzing similarities, I will try to hold off on the similarities I find interesting. One shared aspect of their stories can be both compared and contrasted, however, and it is a major theme of the series, so it might be worth bringing up now: brotherhood. Dany and Ned's paths are set for them because of the actions of their brothers and so-called brother (Robert). Ned does not want to be Hand of the King, but he cannot turn down Robert's request. When he arrives at King's Landing, he discovers that Robert has spent the kingdom into deep debt. Dany does not want to obey her brother's order to be married off to a Dothraki stranger; she wants to find and return to the house with the red door. Furthermore, Ned wouldn't even be Lord of Winterfell, and Dany wouldn't be in exile with Viserys, if Brandon and Rhaegar hadn't chosen paths that led to their deaths.

...

Don't forget the context: "Eddard Stark is a good man in a male dominated society." He has a relatively open minded attitude toward women and girls. For example, he definitely tries to do the right thing, as he sees it, with Arya. However, the qualifier "relatively" is important. I think BearQueen87's comments above on this issue are on target. This is a general problem, not one caused by the Lord of Winterfell. It can be a problem for men, especially when dealing with certain women. That was the case with Ned and Cersei.

The phrase "naive expectation" is not strong enough. Afraid you go too easy on Eddard in this case. Cersei is the daughter of Tywin Lannister, and she has confessed to multiple acts of treason. I don't think the Hand expected her to act honorably. I certainly don't think he had any basis for such an expectation. Even a man extremely set in his opinions, a man more convinced than Lord Stark is that women are "the weaker sex," should realize that not all of them are honorable. On the critical day, Eddard is irritated (even amazed) that the woman has not fled. Another factor in his behavior is his desire to protect children. This is related to his paternalistic view of ruling, which is related to his strong belief in the importance of the leader. More on these matters in the upcoming essays.

[SeanF]

I think that's true, and I think it goes with what Parwan was saying up above about women and children. They are often lumped together. You have "menfolk" and then you have "women and children" the latter including males if they are under a certain age. Men are supposed to be able to "handle" more because society (specifically male society) is supposed to protect women and children, a sentiment that is troubling except that you're right: violence toward women and child feels different than when we read/talk about it WRT men.

Somerset Maugham said he liked to travel on French or Italian liners, rather than British or American ones, because if the ship went down, there was no nonsense about women and children first.

I suppose in evolutionary terms, women and children are more essential to the future of any given society than men are. Children are obviously the future, and a handful of surviving men can impregnate lots of women, whereas the reverse is obviously not possible.

A few comments:

• I also believe and hope I'd vote as Eddard and Barristan do.

This is some good writing on GRRM's part. Unfortunately, two of the least admirable characters make some good points. It's not just that I don't want to agree with them. I can really feel the unctuous nature of Varys's comments, the pseudo sincerity. Pycelle is interesting, unintentionally interesting: "Once I counseled King Aerys as loyally as I counsel King Robert now..." Yeah, right. As one reviewer said, that's one of those statements that's a lie, but not factually inaccurate. The man's advice was worth as much in both cases.

The scene pulls on me in other ways. Though I think I'd vote as Barristan and Eddard do, I'd make different arguments. I think my arguments would be "better," but this is a debatable matter. Just what does "better" mean? Could I really expect the two men to make arguments similar to the ones I'd use? They are men of their time and place. Lord Stark's points were weak, as I said above. I don't blame him too much though.

Eddard couldn't have had much hope that Varys and Littlefinger would vote with him. He was disappointed with Robert, and probably with Renly.

I don't think Dany would have voted to assassinate a pregnant enemy.

Eddard learns a lot of unpleasant truths about his friend, during his time as Hand.

Renly's glib comments (and remember he's Master of Laws!) about wishing the killings had been done years ago demonstrated his unfitness to be King, in my view.

I'm pretty sure Dany would never have given such an order, had the roles been reversed. Dany can be very cruel towards people who she thinks deserve to suffer, but pregnant teenagers wouldn't be among them.

[BearQueen87]

A few comments:

• I also believe and hope I'd vote as Eddard and Barristan do.

This is some good writing on GRRM's part. Unfortunately, two of the least admirable characters make some good points. It's not just that I don't want to agree with them. I can really feel the unctuous nature of Varys's comments, the pseudo sincerity. Pycelle is interesting, unintentionally interesting: "Once I counseled King Aerys as loyally as I counsel King Robert now..." Yeah, right. As one reviewer said, that's one of those statements that's a lie, but not factually inaccurate. The man's advice was worth as much in both cases.

The scene pulls on me in other ways. Though I think I'd vote as Barristan and Eddard do, I'd make different arguments. I think my arguments would be "better," but this is a debatable matter. Just what does "better" mean? Could I really expect the two men to make arguments similar to the ones I'd use? They are men of their time and place. Lord Stark's points were weak, as I said above. I don't blame him too much though.

Eddard couldn't have had much hope that Varys and Littlefinger would vote with him. He was disappointed with Robert, and probably with Renly.

I don't think Dany would have voted to assassinate a pregnant enemy.

The phrase "naive expectation" is not strong enough. Afraid you go too easy on Eddard in this case. Cersei is the daughter of Tywin Lannister, and she has confessed to multiple acts of treason. I don't think the Hand expected her to act honorably. I certainly don't think he had any basis for such an expectation. Even a man extremely set in his opinions, a man more convinced than Lord Stark is that women are "the weaker sex," should realize that not all of them are honorable. On the critical day, Eddard is irritated (even amazed) that the woman has not fled. Another factor in his behavior is his desire to protect children. This is related to his paternalistic view of ruling, which is related to his strong belief in the importance of the leader. More on these matters in the upcoming essays.

Yes I think that's true. Ned doesn't expect her to act honorably, he expects Cersei to act like a mother (which, in Ned Stark's eyes, means taking the children and fleeing). Ned thinks he can count on Cersei's love for her children and a mother's desire to protect her offspring. What he fails to take into account is that while Cersei might claim to do a lot in the name of her children, her own agenda is always focused on herself and what she wants. It's like Ned can't understand that, perhaps largely because Cersei is a mother and is expected to act a certain way.

I'm pretty sure Dany would never have given such an order, had the roles been reversed. Dany can be very cruel towards people who she thinks deserve to suffer, but pregnant teenagers wouldn't be among them.

Agreed and it's largely because Dany has quite the empathetic streak. It's more than just sympathy for the plights of those she helps; she understands their situation because Dany feels as though she has been through it too.

[Kyoshi]

Don't really have anything to add. You guys left me with a lot to think about, though.

[Parwan]

Greetings.

I've had major access problems. I can get on the forums, but I can't post, quote, etc. It seems to be related to my computer. I'm using a different one now, and I have full access. I had some issues with my system (junk files mostly, but also a firewall problem). In getting these matters cleared up, something was changed so that Westeros doesn't properly recognized me. I may have to post from this computer. At any rate, I'll be a few days behind. However, I will get the second essay posted, by the end of the week, if not sooner.

[Parwan]

WOLF AND DRAGON

PART II

Daenerys Targaryen and Eddard Stark are similar in many ways. For instance:

Each rules in a basically secular manner.

Neither is either a born or a trained ruler.

They are paternalists.

They have some weaknesses in common.

As I said in essay 1, these two characters are creatures of their time and place. Since both are aristocrats from Westerosi houses, it's not surprising that they have some similarities, though I think that the similarities are stronger than would be expected simply on the basis of membership in the same social class.

I'll also continue to develop some main topics relating to the current situation of the 7K. There are connecting threads among these topics. Paternalism, dealt with in this essay, is connected to the tendency to place too much emphasis on the leader, to be considered in the last essay. The iron belief in the necessity of placing the "right" monarch on the throne has a connection to some serious problems with ignoring threats to the realm.

Secular Leadership

Ned

Few monarchs in ASoIaF are true believers. They mostly fit in the "religion has its uses" category. Does Lord Stark ever pray? The answer is "yes," but this is not something that we see him doing. It's something that others report in their POVs. In ACoK, Arya VI, we read: "Back in Winterfell, Arya had prayed with...her father in the godswood, but there were no gods on the road to Harrenhal..." Eddard's POVs do not present the lord on his knees, praising the gods. In the text, piety and religious observance appear to be more important to (some) highborn women than to highborn men. In Catelyn's very first POV, she finds her husband in the godswood. What is he doing there? He is cleaning his sword. Also, the faith of the North appears to be something like pantheism or even animism. There is no clergy, no sacred text, no one supreme being, or even an hierarchical pantheon.

Perhaps "secular" isn't exactly the right word for the Lord of Winterfell. He is the leader of the clan, head of the tribe, the great father...Ned's religion is fundamentally a matter of tradition: "This is our way, we are the blood of the First Men, and so on. The old gods fit into this scheme of things. A godswood is not a place for complicated liturgies, but it has its uses. In A Clash of kings, Jon II, we read--

"Jon said, 'My lord father believed no man could tell a lie in front of a heart tree. The old gods know when men are lying.'"

In AGOT, the Hand asks Cersei Lannister to meet him in the godswood. When she asks, "Why here?" he answers, "So the gods can see."

Common Attitudes toward Religion

There are many who express negative views toward religion in the story. For instance we have the cynical atheism of Jaime. When Catelyn says the Kingslayer will go to the lowest of the seven hells if the gods are just, he just chuckles.

"What gods are those, Lady Catelyn? The trees your husband prayed to? How well did they serve him when my sister took his head off?"

Others aren't so cynical, but doubts about the goodness and/or power of the spiritual beings are common. In Arya IX of ACoK, we find: "But the old gods had never helped him. Remembering that made her angry 'You should have saved him,' she scolded the tree." Perhaps the gods are perverse. Maybe they are lacking in power. Possibly they just don't have much interest in human affairs.

Dany

Daenerys can reasonably be classed as a skeptic, though this is not a well considered philosophy with her. She has little info on the religious matters. In ADwD, she tells Quentyn, "I never had a maester growing up." Only a brother. She didn't have a septon either. And I doubt that Viserys presented extensive lessons on the Seven Pointed Star. The queen is much like many other characters in her lack of confidence in the efficacy of prayer. In ADwD, after a discussion with Selmy concerning what to do about the enemy forces approaching Meereen--

"Dany closed her eyes. 'Gods' she prayed, 'you took Khal Drogo who was my sun-and-stars. You took our valiant son before he drew a breath. You have had your blood of me. Help me now, I pray you. Give me the widom to see the path ahead...'

The gods did not respond."

The queen also daydreams and speculates about religion. In her last POV of ASoS, she says she sometimes feels like a god when she is way up in the Great Pyramid. The young lady is not on an ego trip. She sees gods as lonely, confusing or otherwise less-than-magisterial. She feels sorry for some (the butterfly god), and puzzled by others (seven in one, according to some septons). The religion of the red priests presents difficulties of its own. "The red priests believed in two gods, she had heard, but two who were eternally at war...She would not want to be eternally at war."

That last bit could lead to interesting conflicts in the next book. Benerro and friends have significant power, and they see Daenerys as a messiah. However, the worshipers of R'hllor and the dragon queen have some important differences in philosophy.

Neither Born Nor Trained to Sit on a Throne

With both Eddard and Daenerys, we have a situation where a younger sibling had to take on the role usually reserved for an older brother. Both characters are quite aware of this.

Ned

In AGoT, Catelyn II, Eddard tells his wife, “It was all meant for Brandon. You, Winterfell, everything. He was born to be a King's Hand and father to queens. I never asked for this cup to pass to me.” The man was a good Lord of Winterfell, but KL was not his place. Would Brandon Stark have done any better as Hand of the King? That’s something we will never know.

Dany

In Daenerys’s first POV, it is clear she has been assigned a minor role in the business of ruling. Viserys states the way things are and the way they are going to turn out. Injustices have been done to the Targaryens, but he, the “true king,” will set everything right. He does the speaking, and his sister just has thoughts that don’t show any great confidence in herself, or even any connection to political power:

“‘The dragon remembers.’

And perhaps the dragon did remember, but Dany could not.”

Later in the same chapter:

“‘We will have it all back someday, sweet sister.’

All that Daenerys wanted back was the big house with the red door…”

We can know beyond a reasonable doubt that Viserys would have made a wretched king. How good a queen can Daenerys be? She didn’t start off too well in Meereen, but the story isn’t over.

Both Brandon and Viserys died horrible deaths at the hands of monarchs, and both deaths involved fire. Deanerys Targaryen, of course, is an even unlikelier ruler than Eddard Stark. She has some native skill and insight, but she has had no schooling in relevant subjects and is thus ignorant of important facts. For instance, as Dany’s army approaches Meereen, it is clear that she has little understanding of siege weapons and how they are made.

Paternalism

Paternalism is probably the best philosophy of rule among the lords of the Seven Kingdoms. There are a good many powerful men whose actions toward the people are far worse. Paternalistic attitudes seem to be common (though not universal) in the North. The Greatjon’s “Me and mine” phrase in his “The King in the North” speech indicates that he sees himself as a father figure. Certainly, the Lord of Winterfell takes this approach.

Our original view of Lord Eddard is through the eyes of his son Bran. In Cat’s first POV, she approaches her husband in the godswood. He immediately asks her, “Where are the children?” On the second page of Dany’s first POV, she hears the shouts of ragged children playing games. She wishes briefly that “she could be out there with them, barefoot and breathless and dressed in tatters.” These things prefigure the attitudes toward children that the two characters will display. Of course, this doesn’t prove that the two people will regard themselves as parents of their people, but it does fit with this philosophy.

Ned

I think there was a comment by one of Ned’s children that he once said a lord is like a father with many children. Maybe I only imagined this, or perhaps it was said only in the HBO version. At any rate, we have adequate information to make the case without that particular quote.

A Clash of Kings , Arya VII

“She remembered hearing her lady mother tell Father to put on his lord's face and go deal with some matter. Father had laughed at that.”

In A Clash of Kings, Bran VI, Theon demands that the castle be yielded to him. Maester Luwin advises Bran to do this: “A lord must protect his smallfolk.” The maester is speaking the words that his former lord would have used. Indeed, Luwin points out that Eddard had done what he could to gentle Theon, but it wasn’t enough.

Dany

Well before she is called “Mhysa,” Daenerys displays a maternal approach toward the people she rules. In the dessert, her small khalasar is in danger of perishing. “They are not strong, she told herself, so I must be their strength. I must show no fear, no weakness, no doubt.” Daenerys often makes statements like “A queen must know the sufferings of her people” and “A queen belongs not to herself but to the realm.” This queen’s attitude is not one focused on privilege and self importance and the “blood of the dragon.” It is more like noblesse oblige on steroids.

Modern people generally say that there is something wrong with considering adults to be children. That is not the way leaders in the 7K think. They largely believe that leaders are born, and that the determining factor is “the blood.” The best of them would probably say something like “A shepherd watches over the flock. The flock does not watch over the shepherd.”

Weaknesses

With both Eddard in King’s Landing and Daenerys in Meereen, it seems that we are looking at people out of their element. Some readers say that Dany is a good leader but not a good ruler. This is at least a plausible argument, though it could mean many different things and has been turned lots of different ways in various posts. Ned was a good Lord of Winterfell, but he couldn’t handle politics in the capital. It’s fair to say of his performance as Hand that “Eddard Stark was a good guy, but he really blew it.”

Both characters do a bad job of dealing with enemies. In important matters, they sometimes trust people who merit no trust at all. They fail to deal adequately with clear-cut acts of treason. Both have a strong sense of honor and duty. One way of looking at things is to say that Ned chose honor over duty, and Dany took revenge when she should have taken control. I’ve already written about the latter claim, and I’ll have a bit more to say about it here. The business about Ned, honor, and duty will be dealt with in essay 3.

Ned

The Hand of the King doesn’t trust anyone on the small council. At a crucial point, however, he puts his trust in some of the worst people on the small council. Ned is loyal to the king and the realm. But he fails to act against traitors. Indeed, he doesn’t even call treason treason. Clearly, some important men knew what Cersei and Jaime were doing for a good while. Yet these “loyal subjects” never said anything to the king.

Lord Stark has little regard for people like Pycelle and Baelish, especially the latter fellow. When LIttlefinger isn't smirking, he is insulting the Starks. His wife has a high regard for her former playmate. Eddard should have told her, "You knew the boy. The man is a stranger to you."

Still, the Hand of the King fails to act properly on his opinions and his perceptions. The story about how the dwarf acquired the knife used on Bran provides a fine example. LF, using his usual "diplomacy," says, "Do you Starks have nought but snow between your ears?...The Imp would never have acted alone." This means the Imp is a Lannister. He is loyal to his house. Yet, the bogus tale that the master of coin is presenting is that the Imp bet against the champion of House Lannister. We readers also know how close Tyrion and Jaime are. Surely, it wouldn’t have been hard for anyone doing even a half-assed investigation to establish this fact.

And things are even worse than that. The dwarf supposedly won the knife at a tournament, right? It was a public event, not some back-room card game. Bets at these events are made in such a way that large numbers of people overhear them. The Hand, however, makes no effort to check LF’s thin and unlikely story at all. He does not ask Varys; he does not ask Robert; he doesn’t ask anyone. Worse, he misses clear opportunities that just about fall in his lap. Right before the Hand’s Tourney, he convinces Robert not to fight in the melee. Then the king has some other things to say to him.

“Have you seen Mace Tyrell’s boy? The Knight of the Flowers, they call him. Now there’s a son any man would be proud to own to. Last tourney, he dumped the Kingslayer on his golden rump, you ought to have seen the look on Cersei’s face…Renly says he has this sister, a maid of fourteen, lovely as the dawn.”

Okay, Cersei was unhappy. Ned now has a “golden opportunity” to ask his friend Bob how Tyrion reacted his brother’s defeat. Later, in the Hand’s Tourney itself , Sandor Clegane unhorses Jaime. Thus, Lord Baelish loses a bet to Renly Baratheon. Sansa says that she knew the Hound would win.

"Littlefinger overheard. 'If you know who’s going to win the second match, speak up now before Lord Renly picks me clean,' he called to her. Ned smiled.

“'A pity the Imp is not here with us,' Lord Renly said. 'I should have won twice as much.'”

How could the Hand of the King miss the clear implication? It seems that he would almost have had to try not to see what Renly was saying. We have yet another reason to give Eddard the politician low marks. He not only failed to gather intelligence, he failed to reach out and take it when it was placed in front of him. Anyone who buys what LF is selling in the matter of the knife is purchasing very low quality baloney.

In Eddard’s last negotiation, his agreement to proclaim Joffrey king in order to protect his daughter, why did he trust Varys? He never liked the eunuch, a man he now knows (or should know) to be a traitor. The former Hand should have demanded a face to face meeting with the Queen Mother and a specific written guarantee from the king himself.

Dany

Dany doesn’t trust the Yunkai’i or even Hizdahr zo Loraq. But in the peace treaty, she puts her trust in the Yunkai’i. More incredibly, she puts her trust in Hizdahr to report accurately what the Yunkai’i say, and then puts her trust in words that she did not even hear directly from her enemies. Neither she nor any of her advisers are part of the negotiations. I supposed there is some kind of written agreement. However, indications are that Daenerys Targaryen took no part in writing it. She may not have even seen it until she signed it.

She is intent on instituting a new order. However, she does not deal adequately with the enemies of that order. In her effort to secure peace, she not only completely fails to punish first degree murder, she fails to see that, in doing this, she is also allowing traitors to go free. Indeed, she does not even declare that those who kill innocent citizens of their own city, while an enemy fleet is besieging that city, are traitors.

She started out by taking revenge. She never took adequate control of Meereen, even though the former rulers were completely beaten. Why do the Sons of the Harpy represent any sort of military threat? At least one of the queen’s men was killed by a crossbow. Why do the Sons of the Harpy even have projectile weapons? Many houses have members in the fleet besieging Meereen. How can such a thing be accepted? No executions are required. Land and titles can be redistributed. This is common practice. At a minimum, houses like Hazak, Merreq, and so on should be required to disown and disinherit any man serving on any ship in the fleet blocking trade and preventing the fisherfolk from sailing out into Slaver’s Bay. If any house fails to do this, it can go from being great to being small very quickly.

There are times when a leader must require that everyone clearly show which side he or she is on. If there is any doubt about the matter, the leader has to make clear that there will be severe consequences for those who don’t perform as expected. Maybe a sleazy character says he can pay a large group of guards to stand with you, and not with the Lannisters. Fine, this fellow should know that, when you march into the throne room, two of your most trusted men will be right next to him, with weapons at the ready. Perhaps there are foes outside your gates. Everyone inside had best know that “those guys out there aren’t your friends,” and if you work with them, things won’t go well for you. A certain small fellow in the story understands such things quite well:

“‘You won’t hear me shout out Joffrey’s name,’ he told them. ‘You won’t hear me yell for Casterly Rock either. This is your city Stannis means to sack, and that’s your gate he’s bringing down. So come with me and kill the son of a bitch!’”

Tyrion could have taught the Lord of Winterfell a thing or two. Maybe he'll have the opportunity to instruct the dragon queen.

A good many of Eddard’s weaknesses, like those of Dany’s, are related to personal characteristics which have positive aspects. We’ll get to these matters in the essay 3. We’ll also bear down hard on the idea that there is some “true king,” and that putting him (or her) on the throne is a matter of absolutely vital importance.

[SeanF]

Thanks. I'll comment when you're finished.

[SeanF]

https://meereeneseblot.wordpress.com/essays/

George Martin has praised Adam Feldman at a recent conference and says that he "gets it" in his essays about Daenerys in Mereen.

[Parwan]

Hallelujah!

I can post again. Naturally, it was only a minor technical glitch. I just couldn't figure out which setting to change. I'll finish essay 2 tomorrow (Saturday), and I'll post essay 3 by the end of next week.

[Parwan]

https://meereeneseblot.wordpress.com/essays/

George Martin has praised Adam Feldman at a recent conference and says that he "gets it" in his essays about Daenerys in Mereen.

Interesting. Do you have the exact quote from Martin?

[BearQueen87]

https://meereeneseblot.wordpress.com/essays/

George Martin has praised Adam Feldman at a recent conference and says that he "gets it" in his essays about Daenerys in Mereen.

Hmmm. Interesting.

Hallelujah!

I can post again. Naturally, it was only a minor technical glitch. I just couldn't figure out which setting to change. I'll finish essay 2 tomorrow (Saturday), and I'll post essay 3 by the end of next week.

Awww yay! Look forward to reading the essay tomorrow.