khal drogon Posted August 9, 2015 Share Posted August 9, 2015 Indeed the only major immoral thing she does not do in the show but does in the books is having those former slaves "questioned sharply". It's mostly minor scenes and lines though. In the books she wonders if the Gods are making fun of her after sending the bleeding star for her (and she believes the star is for her as any other character does) as she leaves a trail of corpses behind her along the Red Waste. In the show she snaps: "I SWORE I WOULD MAKE THEIR ENEMIES SCREAM HOW DO I MAKE STARVATION SCREAM?" I can't quite see the white-washing in this scene and countless more. I don't see the white washing either. The show makes her look way more worse. In the books the whole point of Arstan Whitebeard is to show she was not insane. The show skips that. Also the show has removed a lot of scenes where she shows compassion to her freedmen. In the books she visits them and helps the pale mare victims. In the show she executes one of them before everyone. In the books she opens the fighting pits when there was no other way. In the show she herself proposes Hizdahr and agrees to open the pits. We have to lose Barry in a alley fight for it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
khal drogon Posted August 9, 2015 Share Posted August 9, 2015 I mean, I suppose it's technically debatable but to me it seems highly unlikely that that action wasn't used to fuel pro-Harpy sentiment among the Meereenese. Even if all of the people who were crucified were guilty of the crucifying of the slave children (again highly unlikely given the high amount) it would still probably be used as a rallying point against Dany's rule. That said, I haven't seen the show past season 2 yet but it does seem like there isn't really any whitewashing of her character like there is with others (e.g., Tyrion, Cersei). What you said was totally possible but it was not explicitly stated in the books. Maybe they wanted to simplify the harpy plot but the end result it made Dany look worser. That was my point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThePrunesThatWasPromised Posted August 9, 2015 Share Posted August 9, 2015 You forgot to mention burning her slave alive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drogonthedread Posted August 9, 2015 Share Posted August 9, 2015 lol op lists the bad deeds done by dany in the show half of which never happens in the books and people cry she is the most whitewashed character after tyrion Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChillyPolly Posted August 9, 2015 Share Posted August 9, 2015 Am i the only one here that smells something bad about Daenerys? I re-watched the whole show from season 1 to 5. and I witnessed Dany's bad actions. 1. She sacrificed the life of her unborn child to save a rapist warrior, who raids villages, slaughters and rapes innocents. 2. She threatens Qart that if they don't let her in, she'd burn cities to the ground. (That's what the mad king said) 3. She was being a beggar to the Spice King. "I'm asking you to lend me ships to allow me to re-take the iron throne" 4. She promised to trade Drogon in exchange for the slave army. She broke the deal and had him burned. (No wonder nobody called her honourable). Clearly she stole the army. 5. She crucified innocent masters in Meeren. "You crucified my father, your grace". " Your father crucified innocent children" "My father spoke out against crucifying those children, he saw it as a criminal act and he was overruled". 6. When Drogon burned an innocent 4 year old child. Dany did no justice about it. Drogon maybe a special pet but he deserved to die for it. 7. "They can live in my new world or they can die in their old one" - Daenerys Targaryen. Adolf Hitler said the same thing. 8. Season 5. Dany feeds her dragons with the leaders of Meeren. "Maybe one of you are innocent but my dragons are hungry". She didn't even give a trial to know who deserved to die or not. 9. It seems she's been trying to rule Meeren and still failed. Without going into book details (some of which vary from the show details above) it is more or less the same in the books as the show. But your evidence does not necessarily show she will be a villain "by the end". What it seems to show is that she is a villain (more or less) RIGHT NOW. She is being what Viserys taught her a Targaryen should be, an entitled power-hungry "draconian" ruler. But will she change course before the end? Many foreshadowings suggest this is possible. For instance, the second mount (Drogon?) she will ride to dread, and the third mount she will ride to love, suggest she may ditch Drogon at some future point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Wraith Posted August 9, 2015 Share Posted August 9, 2015 Frankily there is no nice way to bring fire and blood, not to mention a horde of Dothraki and Ironborn to Westeros. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Blizzardborn Posted August 9, 2015 Share Posted August 9, 2015 Am i the only one here that smells something bad about Daenerys? I re-watched the whole show from season 1 to 5. and I witnessed Dany's bad actions. 1. She sacrificed the life of her unborn child to save a rapist warrior, who raids villages, slaughters and rapes innocents. 2. She threatens Qart that if they don't let her in, she'd burn cities to the ground. (That's what the mad king said) 3. She was being a beggar to the Spice King. "I'm asking you to lend me ships to allow me to re-take the iron throne" 4. She promised to trade Drogon in exchange for the slave army. She broke the deal and had him burned. (No wonder nobody called her honourable). Clearly she stole the army. 5. She crucified innocent masters in Meeren. "You crucified my father, your grace". " Your father crucified innocent children" "My father spoke out against crucifying those children, he saw it as a criminal act and he was overruled". 6. When Drogon burned an innocent 4 year old child. Dany did no justice about it. Drogon maybe a special pet but he deserved to die for it. 7. "They can live in my new world or they can die in their old one" - Daenerys Targaryen. Adolf Hitler said the same thing. 8. Season 5. Dany feeds her dragons with the leaders of Meeren. "Maybe one of you are innocent but my dragons are hungry". She didn't even give a trial to know who deserved to die or not. 9. It seems she's been trying to rule Meeren and still failed. <snip 1. She clearly did not know she was sacrificing her baby. And women have done stupid things for love since the beginning of time, as have men. 2. Show only, as far as I know. 3. Also the show. Though what's wrong with asking for a loan? 4. She paid for the army. He got the dragon. It's not her fault the dragon didn't want to be owned by an asshole who makes a fortune off of human misery and makes disgusting/misogynistic comments about his customers when he thinks they can't understand him. Kraznys deserved it. Don't try and argue otherwise. 5. Seriously, if you can't understand that a medieval story cannot be judged by 21st century morals and values, this is not the series for you. Tell me a better way to deal with people who would crucify 163 innocent children to deliberately taunt someone who has dragons and is coming their way. The masters of Meereen understand only cruelty and blood. Any other response from her would have been taken as weakness and led to even worse problems than the ones she ended up with. When you're dealing with that kind of people, you have to speak to them in a language they understand. 6. We have no actual proof that Drogon did any such thing. Drogon hunts to eat. Yet the skeleton was intact. Hmm, shouldn't there be bones missing or broken from the chewing? Besides which animals do not have any concept of things like moral, evil, etc. Justice is a human concept and does not apply to animals. Dany offered perpetual support to the little girl's family and ongoing remembrances for her life at the temples. It's generous, and does more to help the family than killing Drogon would have done. And really what makes you think anyone could kill Drogon when he's on the lose and can breathe fire? 7. Show line. 8. Show invention, and a stupid one at that. 9. Not necessarily. There's a really good series of articles about her peace being a lasting one but being sabotaged by someone else (Reznak/Hizdahr/other local jerk). And not being a fantastic ruler right out of the gate does not make anyone a villain. Sure she may turn into a villain, but that list doesn't give any reasons why. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
khal drogon Posted August 9, 2015 Share Posted August 9, 2015 ^^^ Well said. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Qhorin Halfhand and Yoren Posted August 9, 2015 Share Posted August 9, 2015 I don't think she is going be a clear hero or a villain. I see her as an anti-villain. Someone who mostly causes destruction and harm, but will also help in some occasions, specifically against the Others or maybe igniting reduction of Slavery in Essos that on the real long term might be beneficial despite the huge number of bodies and destruction/destabilization/devastation currently, though I imagine the books will be ambiguous about the future and won't give us the answer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balerion the kitten Posted August 9, 2015 Share Posted August 9, 2015 You forgot to mention burning her slave alive.Mmmm, its specifically noted how dany never treated her like a slave, instead treating her like a human. Asking MMD, instead of demanding. And funny, you've missed out the fact that this "slave" killed her husband and child. This "slave" destroyed her womb. This "slave" deceived her, acting nice and horribly abusing the trust dany placed in her. And that this "slave" took her revenge against dany, instead of drogo. Dany who tried to protect her and her life. But of course you never mentioned that Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balerion the kitten Posted August 9, 2015 Share Posted August 9, 2015 I'm also trying to confirm from book readers of what I've seen in the show. Maybe the show changed somethings to make her look bad?This forum has notorious dany haters, who will make her look like a two dimensional villain. And of course your post drawed them in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThePrunesThatWasPromised Posted August 9, 2015 Share Posted August 9, 2015 Mmmm, its specifically noted how dany never treated her like a slave, instead treating her like a human. Asking MMD, instead of demanding. And funny, you've missed out the fact that this "slave" killed her husband and child. This "slave" destroyed her womb. This "slave" deceived her, acting nice and horribly abusing the trust dany placed in her. And that this "slave" took her revenge against dany, instead of drogo. Dany who tried to protect her and her life. But of course you never mentioned that"Save him and I will free you. I swear it." Dany Game, 709 She uses Mirri's freedom as a bargaining chip. Interesting way of not treating her like a slave. Yezzan and other wise masters were decent to their slaves too... They were still slavers and as such their is nothing their slaves could visit upon them that wouldn't be justified. And none of that changes that Mirri didn't kill Drogo nor Rhaego, contrary to your wildly bias assertion. We've been through this a hundred times and all Dany fans have is that Mirri could see the future and/or induce Dany's labor from inside the tent. It's preposterous. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caspoi Posted August 9, 2015 Share Posted August 9, 2015 ThereIsSomethingAboutMirri@ even if she didn't she claimed that she did so why would you blame Daenerys? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThePrunesThatWasPromised Posted August 9, 2015 Share Posted August 9, 2015 Because Dany was a slaver, same as the hundreds she crucified for no less. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThePrunesThatWasPromised Posted August 9, 2015 Share Posted August 9, 2015 And no. She doesn't ever admit it, by the way. She didn't deny it, that's not the same as claiming to have done it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Blizzardborn Posted August 9, 2015 Share Posted August 9, 2015 Mmmm, its specifically noted how dany never treated her like a slave, instead treating her like a human. Asking MMD, instead of demanding. And funny, you've missed out the fact that this "slave" killed her husband and child. This "slave" destroyed her womb. This "slave" deceived her, acting nice and horribly abusing the trust dany placed in her. And that this "slave" took her revenge against dany, instead of drogo. Dany who tried to protect her and her life. But of course you never mentioned that No she didn't. The womb is fine. MMD's speech was just an elaborate F-you to Dany. Because Dany was a slaver, same as the hundreds she crucified for no less. Dany was not a "slaver." Slavers capture slaves and sell them. It's a business. Dany saved people from slavery. She never sold anybody. And don't even try to say MMD didn't kill baby Rhaego. That's utter BS. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Blizzardborn Posted August 9, 2015 Share Posted August 9, 2015 And no. She doesn't ever admit it, by the way. She didn't deny it, that's not the same as claiming to have done it. Yes actually in a way she does. She gave her reasoning for doing it. You don't give your reasoning for doing something you didn't do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThePrunesThatWasPromised Posted August 9, 2015 Share Posted August 9, 2015 I just provided a quote from Dany holding Mirri's freedom over her head to induce her to save the man who razed her village and got her raped 4 times because of Dany's ambition. Your eyes are shut. Dany is a nasty person. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
khal drogon Posted August 9, 2015 Share Posted August 9, 2015 "Save him and I will free you. I swear it." Dany Game, 709 She uses Mirri's freedom as a bargaining chip. Interesting way of not treating her like a slave. Yezzan and other wise masters were decent to their slaves too... They were still slavers and as such their is nothing their slaves could visit upon them that wouldn't be justified. And none of that changes that Mirri didn't kill Drogo nor Rhaego, contrary to your wildly bias assertion. We've been through this a hundred times and all Dany fans have is that Mirri could see the future and/or induce Dany's labor from inside the tent. It's preposterous. Mirri herself says this just before. And now you must save him, Dany said. Please You do not ask a slave, Mirri replied sharply, you tell her.No wonder you didn't mention it. Shows whose eyes were shut. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThePrunesThatWasPromised Posted August 9, 2015 Share Posted August 9, 2015 I didn't provide a quote that shows even more concretely that Mirri was a slave? Umm thanks for the assist? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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