King_Slayer Posted September 14, 2015 Share Posted September 14, 2015 Doing another re-read and in AGoT's, p.563 (Bantam paperback), after Jon and Sam take their vows in the Weirwood grove North of the Wall and find Othor and Jafer Flowers (un)dead - the party returns to Castle Black and LC Mormont is informed by Bowen Marsh of the Kings death. The LC later summons Jon to his quarters to tell him of the news of his traitorous "father"... This is all well and good but something Jon says/thinks after he is dismissed by the LC is puzzling me... The passage is as follows: "The rest of the afternoon passed as if in a dream. Jon could not have said where he walked, what he did, who he spoke with. Ghost was with him, he knew that much. The silent presence of the Direwolf gave him comfort. The girls do not even have that much, he thought. Their wolves might have kept them safe, but lady is dead and Nymeria's lost, they're all alone." Ok, so it's the last two sentences that I'm hung up on. I know I'm gonna feel stupid when someone answers this but how did Jon know that Lady was dead and Nymeria lost? I can't recall anyone coming to the wall that would have been in the Kings company to have relayed this news, nor do I remember their being a raven or anything else in that regard. This is bugging me, any light shed on this is appreciated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nuncle Stark Posted September 14, 2015 Share Posted September 14, 2015 I just assumed he got a letter at some point by raven or something. I don't recall him having any warg dreams about it, so the explanation is likely mundane. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BowedBent&Broken Posted September 14, 2015 Share Posted September 14, 2015 people came north with lady's body to bury her in winterfell. before lady was killed, nym was ran off by aria. when the body came up to winterfel, i imagine the news of both wolves being gone reached the wall somehow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Wraith Posted September 15, 2015 Share Posted September 15, 2015 When in doubt Bloodraven did it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King_Slayer Posted September 15, 2015 Author Share Posted September 15, 2015 When in doubt Bloodraven did it. It's all so clear to me now... 😂😂😂 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TakashiMifune Posted September 15, 2015 Share Posted September 15, 2015 It's one of those easy-to-bullshit-your-way-out-of plot holes that authors love. :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShelbySmythe Posted September 15, 2015 Share Posted September 15, 2015 You just have to assume that Jon received a letter at some point, informing him of their deaths. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bright Blue Eyes Posted September 15, 2015 Share Posted September 15, 2015 It's almost half a year from Lady's death to Ned's death, more than enough time for a thousand letters to arrive. By courier, not by raven. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slant Posted September 15, 2015 Share Posted September 15, 2015 Jon knows because Ghost knows. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TakashiMifune Posted September 15, 2015 Share Posted September 15, 2015 Jon knows because Ghost knows. I take my 'plot hole' post back. This is the most likely explanation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
I Am TheSongOf IceAndFire Posted September 15, 2015 Share Posted September 15, 2015 people came north with lady's body to bury her in winterfell. before lady was killed, nym was ran off by aria. when the body came up to winterfel, i imagine the news of both wolves being gone reached the wall somehow. this or maybe its one of the first hints of his connection to ghost/ghost to the other wolves Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King_Slayer Posted September 15, 2015 Author Share Posted September 15, 2015 I could get on board with the Ghost "connection" theory except for one glaring fallacy (to me at least) in the logic behind this specifically: If this is/was the case why is Jon not surprised or freaked out that he knows this without any logical prompting considering that he's had no experience thus far in regards to warging or wolf-dreams. The fact that he doesn't/wouldn't find this odd is... well, odd. I don't feel like writing 4 paragraphs or an essay on this so I apologize if im being too vague. In addition, my problem/doubt in regards to Jon receiving a letter is pretty simple. It's not as if there are mail-men in Westeros and Winterfell for example is very isolated in comparison to... well, everything and the wall is exponentially more isolated than Winterfell. My point being - if you ride north of WF, the only destination on the KR is the Wall/CB and it is hundreds of miles from WF. So for Jon to have gotten a letter about something no one outside the family would find important or urgent, someone had to ride hundreds of miles just to deliver it. An argument could be that a lot of letters were being delivered but then that would mean that this "mail-man", in a time when the only form of communication was Ravens, went around picking up letters (in the North mind you, where everything is hundred of miles away from one another) to deliver to a group that consists mostly of criminals and who have, besides the fact, given up their families and relations prior to joining the NW. My point being that I can't imagine that much "mail" comes to the wall. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bright Blue Eyes Posted September 15, 2015 Share Posted September 15, 2015 In addition, my problem/doubt in regards to Jon receiving a letter Why? He's Robb's brother/Ned's son. He of all people will get his letters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King_Slayer Posted September 15, 2015 Author Share Posted September 15, 2015 Why? He's Robb's brother/Ned's son. He of all people will get his letters. I accidentally hit "submit" while in the process of explaining my reasoning. It should be more complete now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King_Slayer Posted September 15, 2015 Author Share Posted September 15, 2015 I could get on board with the Ghost "connection" theory except for one glaring fallacy (to me at least) in the logic behind this specifically: If this is/was the case why is Jon not surprised or freaked out that he knows this without any logical prompting considering that he's had no experience thus far in regards to warging or wolf-dreams. The fact that he doesn't/wouldn't find this odd is... well, odd. I don't feel like writing 4 paragraphs or an essay on this so I apologize if im being too vague. In addition, my problem/doubt in regards to Jon receiving a letter is pretty simple. It's not as if there are mail-men in Westeros and Winterfell for example is very isolated in comparison to... well, everything and the wall is exponentially more isolated than Winterfell. My point being - if you ride north of WF, the only destination on the KR is the Wall/CB and it is hundreds of miles from WF. So for Jon to have gotten a letter about something no one outside the family would find important or urgent, someone had to ride hundreds of miles just to deliver it. An argument could be that a lot of letters were being delivered but then that would mean that this "mail-man", in a time when the only form of communication was Ravens, went around picking up letters (in the North mind you, where everything is hundred of miles away from one another) to deliver to a group that consists mostly of criminals and who have, besides the fact, given up their families and relations prior to joining the NW. My point being that I can't imagine that much "mail" comes to the wall. Not to mention the fact that everyone in the NW isn't from the North so these "letters" would have to be collected from all over the 7 Kingdoma before making their way to the Wall. I also just find it hard to swallow that Robb would send a letter to the wall via foot when he has a Maester in his control. These are just my thoughts and I'm not trying to shoot down anyone else's theories btw. I want all of your thoughts, that's why I started the thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bright Blue Eyes Posted September 15, 2015 Share Posted September 15, 2015 I accidentally hit "submit" while in the process of explaining my reasoning. It should be more complete now. But it isn't reasonable. You write like people would actually be equal in Westeros. They aren't. Some people are worth more than others and they get all the benefits of their high station. And a Stark bastard is pretty much at the top of the list of these people. There may be two hundred people more privileged than Jon in entire Westeros. In the NW, only Benjen himself. Ned Stark cares about his daughters and their wolves. Cat Stark did. Robb Stark did. Bran Stark did. Sansa Stark did. Arya Stark did. And at least four of them would write Jon and have the means to have it delivered. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kienn Posted September 15, 2015 Share Posted September 15, 2015 We're told of multiple letters that Jon receives... It's in one of those. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King_Slayer Posted September 15, 2015 Author Share Posted September 15, 2015 But it isn't reasonable. You write like people would actually be equal in Westeros. They aren't. Some people are worth more than others and they get all the benefits of their high station. And a Stark bastard is pretty much at the top of the list of these people. There may be two hundred people more privileged than Jon in entire Westeros. In the NW, only Benjen himself. Ned Stark cares about his daughters and their wolves. Cat Stark did. Robb Stark did. Bran Stark did. Sansa Stark did. Arya Stark did. And at least four of them would write Jon and have the means to have it delivered. But it's reasonable to assume that Jon knows because Ghost knows and he doesn't question or even have an internal dialogue about something so incredibly out of the ordinary? You're welcome to your opinion, no one can deny you that but that's what it is - an opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King_Slayer Posted September 15, 2015 Author Share Posted September 15, 2015 We're told of multiple letters that Jon receives... It's in one of those. Ok, good catch. Where are we told this? I'm not questioning that it occurred, I'd just like to see for myself to see if I missed anything else in proximity to this textually. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kienn Posted September 15, 2015 Share Posted September 15, 2015 Ok, good catch. Where are we told this? I'm not questioning that it occurred, I'd just like to see for myself to see if I missed anything else in proximity to this textually.He gets a letter about Bran waking up. Your quote is also right after he receives the letter about Eddard's imprisonment. I think there's at least one other letter... We're not given the actual content of any of the letters so we can assume the info on the girls' wolves were in one. I think for the one about Bran waking Jon even thinks about how the rest of the letter doesn't matter, because at least Bran is awake. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.