Fearing the Niqab

[DireWolfSpirit]

Hijab fashion is gaining traction on the runways as high end clothiers target the women of Arabia, Dubai and the Muslim consumer markets.

http://www.cnn.com/2016/01/07/fashion/dolce-gabbana-muslim-hijab-abaya/index.html

[ElizabethB.]

"How can an Islamist fundamentalist ideology of women even exist in modern society? 

Because of that moment when Islam becomes political. In the 1980s, people ignored the fundamentalist tendencies. Back then, people thought that it was a development that society would just have to bear. We bore it and ignored it until it began to impact us at home. One example is the stylization of the headscarf as something that enriches our multicultural society. That is nonsense. Headscarves are a sign of female oppression. Anyone who supports this particular image of women shouldn't be surprised when men in the same community view women who don't wear headscarves as "loose." "

http://www.dw.com/en/lale-akgün-muslim-migrants-need-to-accept-german-social-norms/a-18967945

[peterbound]

Seems like an easy fix all around.  The wearing of religious garb isn't only limited Moslems, Mormons also wear goofy ass underwear to indicate their covenant with god.  If it's a security issue, have her identify herself to a female officer before the ceremony and then be escorted in when the swearing in starts. Same could be done, in large groups, with anyone wishing to wear a face cover. 

As for identification to the PD. That's a no brainier.  If someone is asked to identify themselves they need to do so.  Remove the garb, identify, and then replace. 

 

I couldn't give a fuck less about this.  They want to live in the fucking middle ages, have a blast.  They have that right here, and they should be able to express it.  

[TerraPrime]

One example is the stylization of the headscarf as something that enriches our multicultural society. That is nonsense. Headscarves are a sign of female oppression. Anyone who supports this particular image of women shouldn't be surprised when men in the same community view women who don't wear headscarves as "loose."

As much as stay-at-home-mothers are.

So I suppose people who support women's right to choose to stay at home instead of working a job can't be expected to complain when others start to suggest that wives cannot be raped, eh?

Fantastic logic.

[NestorMakhnosLovechild]

 

As much as stay-at-home-mothers are.

So I suppose people who support women's right to choose to stay at home instead of working a job can't be expected to complain when others start to suggest that wives cannot be raped, eh?

Fantastic logic.

This is a difficult example because I am sure that it is true that a significant percentage of stay at home mothers have that decision impacted by some form of internalized sexism. At that same time, there are many possible, non-sexist explanations for why one parent, or specifically a woman, might stay home to shoulder the lion's share of child rearing responsibilities while the father earns the primary income. As just one example, if mom is only earning a minimum wage salary, the cost of childcare until the child enters a full-time, public kindergarten or first-grade program might make staying home the more cost-effective option.

In contrast, there are ZERO non-sexist explanations for the belief that women must cover, in whole or in part, their face at the risk of offending Allah. Any woman who wears a niqab IS oppressed, even if they are choosing to do so voluntarily. As the decolonialists might say, the ones who do so voluntarily are suffering from a colonized mind. It just so happens that it's religion, and not whitey, that's done the colonizing. 

 

[ElizabethB.]

 

As much as stay-at-home-mothers are.

So I suppose people who support women's right to choose to stay at home instead of working a job can't be expected to complain when others start to suggest that wives cannot be raped, eh?

Fantastic logic.

This text above has absolutely nothing to do with the article I posted and with it's wider context. 

[TerraPrime]

That has always been a difficult line to walk. Feminism is, imo, about self determination of women. I acknowledge that cultural customs and religious convictions will convince some people that actions like wearing head/face covering is the right thing to do, and that those people who follow those traditions are indeed being oppressed. But I also see plenty of Muslim women who are otherwise fairly independent - holding their own jobs, deciding whom to date, etc., who choose to wear head coverings as a way to honor their heritage or as they see, follow their faith. I see the same contradictions in Catholic women who'd still go to mass, even when the RCC is a massively sexist organization that imposes many rules that are anathema to feminist principles. We do not, as a rule, question whether white, western Catholic women are being oppressed, or not. I would like to extend the same courtesy to Muslim women.

 

There is obviously a gradation here. In countries that are more free and tolerant of outside influences, as in Turkey or Indonesia, I'd say that wearing head coverings is more likely a principled choice. In countries like Afghanistan or perhaps Iran, even if the women wearing the head coverings profess to choosing it on their own will, I'd still be a bit skeptical of how free that choice really is.

 

For Muslim women living in non-Muslim majority countries, like say Canada or United States, I'd say that the choice to cover one's head/hair/face ought to be assumed to be made of free will and self-determination, and not the opposite.

[NestorMakhnosLovechild]

That has always been a difficult line to walk. Feminism is, imo, about self determination of women. I acknowledge that cultural customs and religious convictions will convince some people that actions like wearing head/face covering is the right thing to do, and that those people who follow those traditions are indeed being oppressed. But I also see plenty of Muslim women who are otherwise fairly independent - holding their own jobs, deciding whom to date, etc., who choose to wear head coverings as a way to honor their heritage or as they see, follow their faith. I see the same contradictions in Catholic women who'd still go to mass, even when the RCC is a massively sexist organization that imposes many rules that are anathema to feminist principles. We do not, as a rule, question whether white, western Catholic women are being oppressed, or not. I would like to extend the same courtesy to Muslim women.

 

There is obviously a gradation here. In countries that are more free and tolerant of outside influences, as in Turkey or Indonesia, I'd say that wearing head coverings is more likely a principled choice. In countries like Afghanistan or perhaps Iran, even if the women wearing the head coverings profess to choosing it on their own will, I'd still be a bit skeptical of how free that choice really is.

 

For Muslim women living in non-Muslim majority countries, like say Canada or United States, I'd say that the choice to cover one's head/hair/face ought to be assumed to be made of free will and self-determination, and not the opposite.

There's a conflation of multiple separate issues going on here, the most significant of which is the relationship between "being oppressed" - whether externally or through the internalization of oppressive beliefs, and the question of whether one should be "allowed" to wear the niqab. I think it goes without saying that women should be allowed to wear the niqab, provided they are doing so voluntarily, in the minimalist sense of being voluntary, in that nobody is threatening physical violence against them for choosing not to do it.

That being said, the niqab is still inherently oppressive. Anyone who wears it is oppressed, provided they are wearing it consistent with the religious belief that women are obliged to cover themselves or else offend Allah. I don't have to "question" whether they are oppressed - I know it by virtue of the fact that I understand what the niqab is and what the religious justification is for it. Wearing the niqab - a very specific action, is not at all comparable to something general like "being a Catholic." Since "being a Catholic" doesn't necessarily entail a belief in all of the teachings of the Catholic Church. A better comparison would be between "being a Catholic" and "being a Muslim." Both leave a lot of room, at the margins, for creative interpretation. But, as a general rule, I DO assume that Catholic women are oppressed by the internalization of sexist religious beliefs, just like I DO assume that Muslim women are oppressed by the internalization of sexist religious beliefs. It just so happens that, on average, your average Muslim's beliefs about the role of women in society are significantly more odious and oppressive than your average Catholic's beliefs about the role of women in society.