Was Ned wrong by not telling truth to Robert about Lyanna's eloping?

[purple-eyes]

what a contorted point of view. Cersei screwed her brother and Dany screwed Dario before their weddings is your justification for them wanting it to work?

i think your level of bias in this argument is hurting your credibility. 

It is not great but still it is better than Robert screwed every woman in his reach and made 16 bastards after the wedding. 

Including banging woman in the wedding bed of his brother and banding his cousin who recently lost her husband. 

By the way, before the wedding they are technically single, it does look not very good, but why would it be a big moral problem?

 

 

[purple-eyes]

Cersei screwing her brother the morning of her and robert's wedding has everything to do with their early marital problems. She was not invested since day 1, she justified her actions by telling the Robert calling out Lyanna story. In her twisted mind it is justification, just like you are justifying it. 

Here's question, what did Robert deserve?

... A wife that screws dudes the day of their wedding???

I said already, before wedding they are technically still single. 

It does not look very good, but it is an arranged marriage with a technical stranger. 

I do not think it is that bad for cersei and dany to sleep with their lovers before wedding. 

At least at that time they felt this is the last moment and they wanted to be faithful after the wedding. 

 

[The scourge of westeros]

It is not great but still it is better than Robert screwed every woman in his reach and made 16 bastards after the wedding. 

Including banging woman in the wedding bed of his brother and banding his cousin who recently lost her husband. 

By the way, before the wedding they are technically single, it does look not very good, but why would it be a big moral problem?

 

 

because it shows that cersei had no intention of setting Jaime aside for bedding only Robert. Cersei has no room to complain when she was perpetrating before, during, and after their marriage. She only wanted Jaime or rhaegar, and probably would have continued screwing Jaime either way. 

She didn't even try, she lies to herself telling herself she did. At least Robert doesn't try to lie about his nature

[The scourge of westeros]

I said already, before wedding they are technically still single. 

It does not look very good, but it is an arranged marriage with a technical stranger. 

I do not think it is that bad for cersei and dany to sleep with their lovers before wedding. 

At least at that time they felt this is the last moment and they wanted to be faithful after the wedding. 

 

they could have screwed their lovers the day before, a week before, but screwing on the day.... That combined with the bedding ceremony of the wedding is literally asking to flip a coin for parentage of the "heirs". It's irresponsible on a marriage level, as well as on a political and national security level in this setting. 

Must really isn't even a question, that behavior is selfish in marriage and dangerous to the throne. 

[The scourge of westeros]

How many reasons do you need to say that kind of behavior is just irresponsible? Oh, and you want Ned to risk jon's life for this shit... Ok. 

...Good talk

[purple-eyes]

because it shows that cersei had no intention of setting Jaime aside for bedding only Robert. Cersei has no room to complain when she was perpetrating before, during, and after their marriage. She only wanted Jaime or rhaegar, and probably would have continued screwing Jaime either way. 

She didn't even try, she lies to herself telling herself she did. At least Robert doesn't try to lie about his nature

who said she did not have intention to be faithful to Robert at the beginning?

She was trying that until she was so disappointed and then decided she was going to give him horns. 

here is some quote

When her brother returned he asked her if she wanted Robert dead. "No," she had replied, "I want him horned." She liked to think that was the night when Joffrey was conceived.

 

She was disappointed then she horned him. not the other way. and this happened about one or two years after her wedding. 

 

 

[Anath]

Lyanna or no Lyanna, in the beginning Robert tried to be somewhat discreet about his infidelities. Ergo, he wasn't entirely comfortable with what he was doing. He just wasn't uncomfortable enough to stop doing it. Knowing about Lyanna wouldn't have changed a thing. It wouldn't have made him a faithful husband. And if he spent more time with Cersei, he'd get some better inkling about just how dangerous and warped she was which would hardly inspire husbandly devotion.

[purple-eyes]

they could have screwed their lovers the day before, a week before, but screwing on the day.... That combined with the bedding ceremony of the wedding is literally asking to flip a coin for parentage of the "heirs". It's irresponsible on a marriage level, as well as on a political and national security level in this setting. 

Must really isn't even a question, that behavior is selfish in marriage and dangerous to the throne. 

And what made you think they do not know about this and they do not do something to prevent pregnancy?

The fact is that neither of them got pregnant. 

seriously, if cersei wanted to get pregnant, she already had children with jiame long time ago. 

[The scourge of westeros]

Lol, well your girl is gonna manage to get herself and all her beloved children killed. 

[Wall Flower]

Lyanna or no Lyanna, in the beginning Robert tried to be somewhat discreet about his infidelities. Ergo, he wasn't entirely comfortable with what he was doing. He just wasn't uncomfortable enough to stop doing it. Knowing about Lyanna wouldn't have changed a thing. It wouldn't have made him a faithful husband. And if he spent more time with Cersei, he'd get some better inkling about just how dangerous and warped she was which would hardly inspire husbandly devotion.

To be fair, Robert's idea of discretion was waiting until he thought his wife was asleep before fucking his cousin in the same castle.

I'm not sure that Lyanna's feelings ever figured much in Robert's view of their relationship. If Ned had told Robert the truth (whatever that turns out to be), Robert would probably still be consumed by his one true love's betrayal of him and the fact that another man had stolen her away from him.  If his hatred turned towards Lyanna, the relationship with Ned might have suffered too.  To some extent, Lyanna was an excuse for Robert not to deal with his responsibilities and I'm not sure that would change.

Neither Robert nor Cersei were ever going to make good marriage partners.

[~~~~~~~~~~~~~]

Well, I did not watch show. 

I never said she wanted to love robert. 

but she was impressed by her royal wedding and liked her young and handsome husband. 

For an arranged marriage, this is not a bad start. 

At least Cersei did not want to screw up her marriage at that moment. She was not that disappointed in Robert either. 

That Lyanna's name is a big insult for her. It was very clear in the book. Even Ned knew about it and pitied her. 

No wife deserved this, either love marriage or arranged marriage. 

They had an arranged marriage of political importance.  Robert needed heirs to secure his throne.  Tywin wanted his daughter to be queen.  Rhaegar wouldn't have her, or, Aery's wouldn't let him have her, either way, Cersei wanted to be queen and Tywin wanted it for her.  Jaime fell for Aerys ploy and became a Kings guard ensuring he would never rise to royalty or carry on the name of Lannister at Casterly Rock.

Cersei made sure Robert had no children.  She is a bitch.  She made sure Jaime never became close to his children.  She is evil.  She made sure Jaime never had a chance to fall in love with another woman.  She started by murdering Melara (probably) and talked him into being a King's Guard so they could be close to each other.  It was all for her benefit.

As for wedding night's, well, I think Cersei felt some lust for Robert and it soured very fast after he called Lyanna's name.  You can't fight a ghost.  However, Cersei loved Rhaegar and lied to Jaime about it.  She wanted Rhaegar more than she ever wanted Jaime.  

Cersei got her feelings hurt on her wedding night and we're supposed to grieve and rage at the injustice?  Bologna.

Lying to Robert had to be done to protect Jon from him.  He clearly told Ned that he would kill every Targaryen and piss on their graves.  Ned promised his sister more than likely to protect her son.  Ned being honorable and loving his sister had to keep his promise.  It wasn't wrong.  People lie to protect children all of the time.

I am sure more of this story will come out and all of the reasons why it went the way it went.  I won't ever say Ned was wrong for protecting Jon from Robert, but the other side of that coin is, he protected Robert from a terrible hurt.  Lyanna was dead, what good would it do to tell Robert that she didn't love him?  Why would you hurt a grieving man like that.  You wouldn't unless you were heartless.  Like Cersei.  Who by the way planned the murder of her husband.

 

 

[~~~~~~~~~~~~~]

I said already, before wedding they are technically still single. 

It does not look very good, but it is an arranged marriage with a technical stranger. 

I do not think it is that bad for cersei and dany to sleep with their lovers before wedding. 

At least at that time they felt this is the last moment and they wanted to be faithful after the wedding. 

 

Before the wedding they are technically single.  So, pure of heart Cersei could fuck Jaime all she wanted to and still wear white and pretend indignation when she heard Lyanna's name called on her wedding night?  Oh please.  The woman was born with a heart only because the blood has to pumped by something, other than that it is an empty vessel.  She has no heart, no conscience.  She treats her children like shit.  

Cersei is bad news.  I've said it before, no one out bitches Cersei.

[purple-eyes]

They had an arranged marriage of political importance.  Robert needed heirs to secure his throne.  Tywin wanted his daughter to be queen.  Rhaegar wouldn't have her, or, Aery's wouldn't let him have her, either way, Cersei wanted to be queen and Tywin wanted it for her.  Jaime fell for Aerys ploy and became a Kings guard ensuring he would never rise to royalty or carry on the name of Lannister at Casterly Rock.

Cersei made sure Robert had no children.  She is a bitch.  She made sure Jaime never became close to his children.  She is evil.  She made sure Jaime never had a chance to fall in love with another woman.  She started by murdering Melara (probably) and talked him into being a King's Guard so they could be close to each other.  It was all for her benefit.

As for wedding night's, well, I think Cersei felt some lust for Robert and it soured very fast after he called Lyanna's name.  You can't fight a ghost.  However, Cersei loved Rhaegar and lied to Jaime about it.  She wanted Rhaegar more than she ever wanted Jaime.  

Cersei got her feelings hurt on her wedding night and we're supposed to grieve and rage at the injustice?  Bologna.

Lying to Robert had to be done to protect Jon from him.  He clearly told Ned that he would kill every Targaryen and piss on their graves.  Ned promised his sister more than likely to protect her son.  Ned being honorable and loving his sister had to keep his promise.  It wasn't wrong.  People lie to protect children all of the time.

I am sure more of this story will come out and all of the reasons why it went the way it went.  I won't ever say Ned was wrong for protecting Jon from Robert, but the other side of that coin is, he protected Robert from a terrible hurt.  Lyanna was dead, what good would it do to tell Robert that she didn't love him?  Why would you hurt a grieving man like that.  You wouldn't unless you were heartless.  Like Cersei.  Who by the way planned the murder of her husband.

 

 

Only being hurt by calling Lyanna's name?

How about those drunk raping, cheating, beating and humiliating?

Cersei was being bitchy and mocking him, so what? needs to be raped and beaten?

people were captured and sent to jail by 911 for violently abusing spouse, how many wives were captured by being bitchy and mocking husbands? 

 

Protecting Robert from being hurt?

I can partially agree that Ned lied to him to reduce the possibility that they can figure out that he is hiding a child of Rhaegar, but seriously? you call this as a protection for robert? By making him feel beloved by Lyanna and keeping falling into his own false dreams?

By your logic, doctors should also lie to patients and their family to protect them from being hurt. 

People deserve to know truth, even the truth hurts, especially on the romantic relationship. 

 

 

 

 

 

[Dragonheart]

I have a question. How do we know that Robert believed that Lyanna loved him? Does he say that somewhere in the book? His wedding with her was going to be an arranged one and arranged marriages was usually loveless. The text does not support that they had a close relationship beforehand, so it is likely that unless Lyanna told him that she was in love with him, it would be very bold of him to believe that she was.

 We know that Robert believed that he loved Lyanna but do we know that he believed that she loved him back? I really can't remember if the books give us this answer.

 

[purple-eyes]

I have a question. How do we know that Robert believed that Lyanna loved him? Does he say that somewhere in the book? His wedding with her was going to be an arranged one and arranged marriages was usually loveless. The text does not support that they had a close relationship beforehand, so it is likely that unless Lyanna told him that she was in love with him, it would be very bold of him to believe that she was.

 We know that Robert believed that he loved Lyanna but do we know that he believed that she loved him back? I really can't remember if the books give us this answer.

 

he is a proud man and he is maid's fantasy. Ned deeply loves him. Lyanna is pretty much a female Ned in his mind. 

I am sure he never thought lyanna disliked him. And our good old Ned probably did not tell him that lyanna complained about Mya either. 

[Dragonheart]

I just wonder if the text supports this. Because I think that this is relevant with what we are discussing here. Robert was a man of his time. He was aware about the specifications of the weddings of his society. He knew that most of the girls didn't love their fiancees before their wedding. They didn't even knew them before. So even if he believed that he was generally an eligible man, he should know that Lyanna didn't love him. 

 

[Anath]

Could Ned really tell Robert? Beyond the matter of Jon's safety, there's the not so small matter of House Stark's reputation. Robert getting to know means everyone getting to know for sure, beyond romantic suggestions. That would be a huge loss of face for the Starks. Really, they couldn't control even their own daughter but they claim they're entitled to control the North? It places quite a different spin on Brandon's death, Rickard's death and the deaths of those 200 men who were killed upon entering the Red Keep. All started because of a girl who just ran away. And let's not forget the fact that with everyone knowing, Ned himself would have to confront the likely truth about Lyanna's feelings - that she'd do it all over again, even knowing the outcome, as her "romantic" death holding what was most likely Rhaegar's roses showed. That while she might have said she was sorry, she wasn't this sorry. Ned is great at whitewashing the faults of those he loves. He seems to be one of the people who can only love "good" people, so he turns his back to their flaws, like he did with Robert. All in all, what good would telling the truth be? The matter went far beyond Robert and his feelings.

[Melisandre's White Pubes]

There are probably many people who suspect that Jon Snow is the child of Lyanna and Rhaegar based on the official story of what happened.  Even Ned probably knew that the secret was 100% safe.  Robert may have even known, but trusted Ned - but that's with the assumption that Jon is the product of rape.

This changes drastically when you change the story from "kidnapped and raped" to "eloped".  With that comes the possibility of Jon being legitimate.  Robert might trust Ned to keep a Targaryan bastard secret, but someone with a legitimate claim to the throne?  That could make Jon way to valuable to Robert's enemies for Ned to keep control of him.  And what if Ned dies and some other Stark tries to press a claim?

Best to let Robert believe that Lyanna was kidnapped and raped.

[~~~~~~~~~~~~~]

Its good to be King.

 

"Balls said the Queen, if I had two I'd be King."  In a nutshell, that's Cersei's problem.  She doesn't really want to be the Queen, she'd rather be a King.  

[purple-eyes]

 

Cersei wasn't raped and he slapped Cersei only once he never beat her.  Did you know that it was quite legal to beat your wife in Medieval times?  Actually it was legal in a lot of places until just recently and its legal still in some places.  Cersei did not like her marital duties but she was also aware that she had to lay with Robert or she could never say the children were his.  She put up with Robert in the bedroom just like a lot of other women do that have no interest in sex with their husband.  She had to share his bed to protect her relationship with Jaime which by the way, had Robert found out would have gotten her and Jaime beheaded for treason.  Protect her all you want, Cersei is the one who was breaking laws and hurting Robert not the other way around.  

I will never say that its okay for a man to beat his wife or any woman for that matter. Please don't use twisted logic to try and say that I think its okay to be abusive.

Doctors by today's standards can't keep information from their patients, that wasn't always true either.  You are applying today's rules to a society that doesn't play by today's rules.  You think that Robert deserved to know about Lyanna's feelings.  Well, had she lived I'm sure she would have told him herself.  She doesn't strike me as the sort of individual who would lead a man on.  Since she died, what purpose does it serve?  Robert clearly loved her and since death didn't stop that feeling, what is it that makes you think that knowing she didn't love him would have made Robert move on?  

The other thing I would like to add is that we don't know that Lyanna didn't love Robert.  That is a speculation.  We assume she loved Rhaegar but that has not been concerned.  

So, in Lyanna's own words, Love is sweet but it can't change a man's nature.  She does not say she wasn't in love with Robert, she was acknowledging that he more than likely would not remain faithful to her.  

Ned's other concern was protecting Jon from Robert's wrath.  This issue clearly weighed heavily on Ned but Ned put his family ahead of his honor in order to keep his promise to Lyanna.  If you delve a bit deeper, you might even see that Ned putting his family above his honor for Jon's protection is foreshadowing for his putting his family before his honor when he lied and said he was guilty before he was beheaded.  He did that to save Sansa's life even though he thought he was also saving his, his first consideration was saving Sansa and possibly Arya.

Nice try at trying to discredit Ned.  Good luck with making him a bad guy.

Sure, Robert had every right to abuse Cersei in that time. But this does not mean Cersei can not avenge. 

Slavers also had every right to abuse their slaves in that time, and we know what dany and they did to return it. 

The logic is, Cersei is not evil from day one for her marriage. She did not come to this marriage with a secret plan to give him three bastards. Robert's behavior made her want to revenge. 

Why did a woman want to risk her life and bear children for a man who treated her like this?

 

I never said ned is a bad guy. But good guy can also hurt their family and friends. 

To keep his promise to Lyanna, he deeply hurt his wife, and he also misguided his friend. 

Yes he had to do this to keep his promise, but these are still bad things towards Cat and robert. 

Sister is more important than his wife and his friend. (I am not saying this is not right, Lyanna and Ned had same blood, Cat and Robert had no blood tie with him. They are not very important. Cat died he can have more wife, Robert died he can have more friend. But Lyanna is his only sister. )