Heresy Project X+Y=J: Robert + Lyanna

[Kingmonkey]

4 hours ago, J. Stargaryen said:

What do you base this on? I'm recalling an SSM where GRRM talked about the rules of inheritance not really being set in stone, though I don't remember if he mentioned legitimized bastards or not. Even if not, I'd think the same sort of logic would apply; i.e., having a claim you could enforce was often just as, if not more, important than having the traditionally better claim.

The SSM will be this one: http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/The_Hornwood_Inheritance_and_the_Whents

It does indeed mention legitimized bastards, and the answer is indeed not set in stone. However we don't really need to make a guess on this one, because Ned lets us know what his assumptions are:

Quote

Cersei could not have been pleased by her lord husband's by-blows, yet in the end it mattered little whether the king had one bastard or a hundred. Law and custom gave the baseborn few rights. Gendry, the girl in the Vale, the boy at Storm's End, none of them could threaten Robert's trueborn children . . .

AGoT ch.30

We can conclude from this passage that even were Jon older, Ned would not assume that Cat would consider him to be a threat to her trueborn children. This is straight from the horses mouth on Ned's assumptions, which after all is the only thing that matters here.

Thus if Jon was significantly older than Robb, Ned could either tell the truth and in his own thinking it wouldn't really worry Cat, or he could take the risk that nobody would notice the age discrepancy and lie, at the price of making everyone believe he had dishonoured himself and Catelyn. 

We're really missing a reason why Ned would make this risky and costly lie. 

[J. Stargaryen]

14 hours ago, Kingmonkey said:

The SSM will be this one: http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/The_Hornwood_Inheritance_and_the_Whents

It does indeed mention legitimized bastards, and the answer is indeed not set in stone. However we don't really need to make a guess on this one, because Ned lets us know what his assumptions are:

We can conclude from this passage that even were Jon older, Ned would not assume that Cat would consider him to be a threat to her trueborn children. This is straight from the horses mouth on Ned's assumptions, which after all is the only thing that matters here.

Thus if Jon was significantly older than Robb, Ned could either tell the truth and in his own thinking it wouldn't really worry Cat, or he could take the risk that nobody would notice the age discrepancy and lie, at the price of making everyone believe he had dishonoured himself and Catelyn. 

We're really missing a reason why Ned would make this risky and costly lie. 

Thanks for finding that SSM.

Agreed on Ned's thoughts. I would only note, for the sake of clarity, that I was speculating about Cat's feelings on the matter of Jon being older. Given the choice, I think she'd prefer that Robb was older. However, I don't think this would have been a consideration for Ned.

[wolfmaid7]

I will answer these posts later,bear with me guys work has me a bit tied up.

[wolfmaid7]

On 4/17/2016 at 9:23 PM, J. Stargaryen said:

You're right that it certainly doesn't help your case. Because, if anything, it shows that black Baratheon hair wins out, as Robert, Stannis and Renly all had the black Baratheon hair.

Btw, the color chestnut is described as a medium reddish shade of brown. See also the in other fields section of the disambiguation page. - "reddish brown hair."

I'm not going to delve into the whole eumelanin and pheomelanin aspects of hair and genetics and how that translate into what hair color is expressed.The Eumelanin pigment only has two types (Black and brown) which represent the two most dominat hair colors on earth Black and Brown respectively.Understanding this would dismiss this whole "ish" shades in Chestnut etc.It matters alot when it comes to dark of the shade vs light of a shade.Which is why i was specific in saying "light hair" the Starks have dark brown hair .GRRM has established based on the vid that Westeros doesn't understand these things they go for the " blood will tell" ideology which is isn't always an accurate determinant in parentage and even their own ideology implodes in the case of Cersie's children.

The idea that Robert can "only" have black haired children is not an accurate statement because important variables are being ignored and a lot of it stems from the observation itself.

1.Ned's observation is specific to one group to begin with and that is the Lannister gold.

2.Ned's interpretation of what Jon Arryn's words meant.He went directly to the hair even though other info is given besides hair color.

3. From a thematic standpoint we have seen GRRM interchange seed with progeny before so that is something to keep in mind as a double entendre here.

4. Both Robert and Lyanna are dark haird individuals.

There is a belief that no matter what and who Robert is paired with means he will have a black and that will be true in most cases "most" on account of mixing with the Andals and Targs etc.However the Starks are different and they have a dominant hair color of their own second to black hair and without the generous mixing with those outside the North.

 

On 4/17/2016 at 0:58 AM, Julia H. said:

Chestnut is a shade of brown. 

A question on ASOIAF genetics versus real life:

How can it be explained, using real life genetics, that the Lannisters' golden hair always yielded before the Baratheons' black hair over the centuries, yet, it doesn't seem to be affected by the genes of other families the Lannisters have interbred with? How could the golden hair remain practically a Lannister trademark over centuries and centuries? And if it's such a strong gene (perhaps second only to the Baratheon gene), how is it possible that we don't see characters with Lannister hair but without the Lannister name - you know, characters descended from the Lannisters on the female line still preserving the golden-hair gene in their own families? The only such characters we see are Cersei's children and it soon turns out that everybody who pays attention to the matter realizes that they are fake Baratheons. The golden hair is strongly associated with the Lannister family in-world and only with them, historically as well as currently, which is only possible if this golden hair is inherited exclusively through the male line.

Real-life genetics doesn't work like that. Martin has his own fantasy rules for the genetics of his fantasy world, just as he has a way of breeding dragons and so on.

Read up on Eumelanin and Pheomelanin and keep westrosi racial and ethnic make up when you do.Keep in mind the Starks and their breeding habits. 

On 4/17/2016 at 3:20 AM, Seralei said:

I didn't read EVERYTHING you put, but I see two glaring problems with your theory.

 

1. Based on the timelines given in the books, Lyanna and Robert would have had to meet some few months after she was "abducted" by Raegar with Robert and then conceive Jon. To which she would then return to Raegar. Unless there is some hidden battle that was never brought up where she was rescued and recaptured, it doesn't make a lot of sense.

2. Besides Lyanna making Ned promise not to tell him there is quite literally NO reason for Ned to hide Jon's parentage to Robert. At the time of Lyanna's death Robert was still planning to marry her. The Lannisters played no part in anything. Based on what we know about Robert and his love for Lyanna, he would have made Jon his heir on the sole fact that Jon WAS Lyanna's mother. It would have been his way of keeping something of Lyanna's close to him. No matter who he married, Ned would know he would treat Jon like he was his sole heir.

The only real reason to hide Jon's parentage from Robert is because the father is someone he hated with every fiber in his being.

Great job on your research and it's easy to tell you put a lot of thought into this. But those two things are the biggest reasons why I believe your theory doesn't quite add up.

1. I believe you when you say you didn't read "everything." We have been debating the timelines for a while now and why it doesn't quite work.I guess i should ask you what are you using to determine the timeline for Jon's birth and we will go from there.If its along the lines of Dany's 9 moons in relation to GRRM's ssm and what Cat said and the notion that Rhaegar had anything at all to do with Lyanna's disappearance then that arguement is as solid as quicksand.

2. Can you point me to where it says Lyanna made Ned promise not to tell Robert?What Ned did regarding protecting Jon is his doing.Given Lyanna's state and just the natural processes of writing i don't think Lyanna gave Ned a itemized and specified list.A simple "protect my son and keep him safe" would have sufficed.But there is a reason for Ned to keep Jon from Robert and it has a lot to do with everthing you said.

a.You are right Robert would have made Jon his heir and there's nothing Ned could do about Jon being in KL had he known then what.

The Lannister's still would have been involved because Robert would have still married Cersie.Lannister's have proven themselves to be child murderers past and present.

Despite being legitimized the stain of bastadry would still be on Jon.

On 4/17/2016 at 1:37 PM, Rhaenys_Targaryen said:

No, we don't know what Ned told Catelyn, prior to this conversation. Catelyn had no idea who the mother was, and asked her husband about it, and was at that point forbidden to ask further about Jon, but that says absolutely nothing about anything that might have been said at an earlier moment. 

 

I suppose we just have to agree to disagree here.  

 

But her belief does matter. If whatever she was told and/or overheard from Ned's soldiers did not match with what she saw (which would have been the case if Jon was significantly older than Robb), she would have realised that, and it would have prevented her from being as certain about the issue as she currently is.

So the need is there for your theory to be abel to explain why Catelyn would not have noticed such significant differences between Jon and Robb that would have been there if Jon was so much more older than Robb as you propose here.

RT the part i bolded is not possible it was clear that was the first and only time Cat asked about anything to do with Jon's origin and she got shot down in the worst possible way.Ned never told her anything about Jon,that never happened.

Yeah we will have to,but that's cool.It will make things interesting when it all comes out in the end.

Her belief doesn't matter because Ned never told her who Jon's mother was.Its clear she doesn't know .When she was at RR before Robb went of to fight.Remember that statement " whoever Jon's mother was her identity died with Ned as well as his other secrets." I'm paraphrasing .So she can't realize something for which she had no basis because the one person who did know isn't speaking.

Which brings me to your last point.Cat was in a place of not knowing and as long as she didn't know and nobody ( Ned)was saying anything about Jon and his origin "easy peasy" for her and her kids.So you can't notice something for which you have no reference point.

Second and i pointed this out several times.When exactly would Cat have found time to "notice" Jon? Between getting a household together,seeing about Robb dealing with the aftemath of war funerals etc. By the time she really had time to "notice" Jon would Jon being older be the first thing that come to mind? And how different in size would he be to Jon at that time?

Cat doesn't know and isn't sure about when Jon was born because she has no information to base that on and we know she doesn't because Ned didn't tell her so if by some chance she thinks Robb was older it was wishful thinking.

On 4/17/2016 at 2:09 PM, sciteacher said:

Out of curiosity, why are you interested in proving Jon older?

You do realize that had Cat thought Jon to be older than Robb, she would have been elated. Robb was conceived in the first two weeks of her marriage, perhaps the first night.

I'm not interested in proving Robb as being older.I'm simply dispelling another false leg on which the timeline of Jon's conception and birth is built on.You can't use Cat's statement and arrival at WF to determine Jon's birth and you can't use Dany's "supposed" timeline either.You could if you want but i'm saying it would be based on faulty info.

1. Having to do with eager fans using info that shouldn't be used.

2.Characters given backgrounds and origin that make no sense with memories,accounts ...frack the weather.

On 4/17/2016 at 3:15 PM, J. Stargaryen said:

I'm not sure that's the case. Cat might have worried more, since that would make Jon Ned's first-born son.

Hypothetically speaking, let's say Ned legitimized Jon. The rules aren't really clear on where he would fit in the line of succession. One possibility is that he would be placed after all of Ned's trueborn children, or at least after all of the trueborn sons. But another is that he would be slotted in based on birth order. IF that was the case, then Jon would become Ned's heir were he older than Robb. And that would be a problem for Cat.

Not to mention, Cat doesn't seem to mind too much that Ned conceived a bastard after they were married, so much as the fact that he brought him to Winterfell and called him son.

Cat doesn't think this JStar come on now.Cat had no problem that Ned fathered a bastard period why drop in something that's out the window. She grew up knowing men fathered bastards." Starks were not like other men,Ned brought his bastard home and called him son for all the North to see." THAT is what he did that bugged her.Jon was there at WF.

[J. Stargaryen]

2 hours ago, wolfmaid7 said:

I'm not going to delve into the whole eumelanin and pheomelanin aspects of hair and genetics and how that translate into what hair color is expressed.The Eumelanin pigment only has two types (Black and brown) which represent the two most dominat hair colors on earth Black and Brown respectively.Understanding this would dismiss this whole "ish" shades in Chestnut etc.It matters alot when it comes to dark of the shade vs light of a shade.Which is why i was specific in saying "light hair" the Starks have dark brown hair .GRRM has established based on the vid that Westeros doesn't understand these things they go for the " blood will tell" ideology which is isn't always an accurate determinant in parentage and even their own ideology implodes in the case of Cersie's children.

This is irrelevant, since we know GRRM is playing fast and loose with genetics in the story. It makes no more sense than trying to explain the long seasons using real-world science.

2 hours ago, wolfmaid7 said:

Cat doesn't think this JStar come on now.Cat had no problem that Ned fathered a bastard period why drop in something that's out the window. She grew up knowing men fathered bastards." Starks were not like other men,Ned brought his bastard home and called him son for all the North to see." THAT is what he did that bugged her.Jon was there at WF.

Yes she does.

Quote

Many men fathered bastards. Catelyn had grown up with that knowledge. It came as no surprise to her, in the first year of her marriage, to learn that Ned had fathered a child on some girl chance met on campaign. He had a man’s needs, after all, and they had spent that year apart, Ned off at war in the south while she remained safe in her father’s castle at Riverrun. Her thoughts were more of Robb, the infant at her breast, than of the husband she scarcely knew. He was welcome to whatever solace he might find between battles. And if his seed quickened, she expected he would see to the child’s needs.
He did more than that. The Starks were not like other men. Ned brought his bastard home with him, and called him “son” for all the north to see. When the wars were over at last, and Catelyn rode to Winterfell, Jon and his wet nurse had already taken up residence. - AGoT, Catelyn II

Cat believes Ned fathered a child on some woman in the first year of their marriage. She's understanding though, since: "He had a man’s needs, after all, and they had spent that year apart." That year meaning the first year of their marriage.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

4 hours ago, wolfmaid7 said:

RT the part i bolded is not possible it was clear that was the first and only time Cat asked about anything to do with Jon's origin and she got shot down in the worst possible way.Ned never told her anything about Jon,that never happened.

Yeah we will have to,but that's cool.It will make things interesting when it all comes out in the end.

Her belief doesn't matter because Ned never told her who Jon's mother was.Its clear she doesn't know .When she was at RR before Robb went of to fight.Remember that statement " whoever Jon's mother was her identity died with Ned as well as his other secrets." I'm paraphrasing .So she can't realize something for which she had no basis because the one person who did know isn't speaking.

Which brings me to your last point.Cat was in a place of not knowing and as long as she didn't know and nobody ( Ned)was saying anything about Jon and his origin "easy peasy" for her and her kids.So you can't notice something for which you have no reference point.

Second and i pointed this out several times.When exactly would Cat have found time to "notice" Jon? Between getting a household together,seeing about Robb dealing with the aftemath of war funerals etc. By the time she really had time to "notice" Jon would Jon being older be the first thing that come to mind? And how different in size would he be to Jon at that time?

Cat doesn't know and isn't sure about when Jon was born because she has no information to base that on and we know she doesn't because Ned didn't tell her so if by some chance she thinks Robb was older it was wishful thinking.

And yet, Catelyn learned about Jons existence whilst she was still at Riverrun. Someone told her, and if that wasn't Ned (by letter), it would have been someone who had gotten info from Ned.

The passage in AGOT shows Catelyn asking about Jons mother for the first time, and she is from that moment forth forbidden to ask such a question, or questions like it. But that does not exclude her having learned anything before from Ned, however irrelevant it might have seemed at the time.

But also, Jon celebrates his nameday. Wouldn't Catelyn notice if her husbands bastard turned 14 before her own son did? I'd say that she would.

Regardless, Catelyn  is clear in her belief: Jon was conceived while Ned was off in the south fighting battles in the war. That is what she believes, she expresses absolutely no doubt about it. Does her belief make it so? Not necessarily, but as far as she is concerned, that's what happened.

 

So yes, Catelyn's beliefs do matter, in a way. If the children differ too much in development, (and I'm not just talking about size), with Jon being much further ahead, it seems almost impossible for her not to notice.

 

I also have a question for you, if you don't mind. I have no idea if his has been discussed earlier in the thread, and don't have the time to check. But at Harrenhal, Robert and Lyanna had long been betrothed. If she had gotten pregnant with his child, why did they not marry?

[wolfmaid7]

21 hours ago, J. Stargaryen said:

This is irrelevant, since we know GRRM is playing fast and loose with genetics in the story. It makes no more sense than trying to explain the long seasons using real-world science.

Yes she does.

Cat believes Ned fathered a child on some woman in the first year of their marriage. She's understanding though, since: "He had a man’s needs, after all, and they had spent that year apart." That year meaning the first year of their marriage.

I think it is relevant seeing as GRRM himself tells us that they don't understand DNA but they have their version which is "blood will tell" and again that will not work some of the time.I'm not trying to explain it with real world science.Its pretty simple we have limited information ( purposefully so) when it comes to who Robert fathered children on.The author was specific and deliberate in what he had characters observe.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9En4f_SHdx4

Let's look at that statement by Cat in its totality:

"Many men fathered bastards. Catelyn had grown up with that knowledge. It came as no surprise to her, in the first year of her marriage, to learn that Ned had fathered a child on some girl chance met on campaign. He had a man's needs, after all, and they had spent that year apart, Ned off at war in the south while she remained safe in her father's castle at Riverrun. Her thoughts were more of Robb, the infant at her breast, than of the husband she scarcely knew. He was welcome to whatever solace he might find between battles. And if his seed quickened, she expected he would see to the child's needs.He did more than that. The Starks were not like other men. Ned brought his bastard home with him, and called him "son" for all the north to see. When the wars were over at last, and Catelyn rode to Winterfell, Jon and his wet nurse had already taken up residence. - AGoT, Catelyn II

That bolded is the point of reference and should be the point of reference because it indicates first and foremost ambiguity by the author concerning "chance met on campaign"....................So you quantify that "chance met on campaign" for me .You can't because "chamce on campaign is sooo broad, based on the bolded the rest of the sentence makes sense. She doesn't mean that Ned fathered a child in the first year of their marriage.She means she "found out" the first year of their marriage that Ned had fathered a child.......Not in their first year but on campaign.

The Fisherman's daughter story falls in that to and it is a story more wildly known and it was when he went home to call his bannars.

Another interesting point.The second bolded.This indicates Cat isn't sure she is going by what she heard via the rumor vine.

The author wrote Cat to to display to thoughts here that isn't cohesive but it doesn't matter but serve as a distraction to the point that Ned didn't tell Cat anything about Jon's origin.

 

19 hours ago, Rhaenys_Targaryen said:

And yet, Catelyn learned about Jons existence whilst she was still at Riverrun. Someone told her, and if that wasn't Ned (by letter), it would have been someone who had gotten info from Ned.

The passage in AGOT shows Catelyn asking about Jons mother for the first time, and she is from that moment forth forbidden to ask such a question, or questions like it. But that does not exclude her having learned anything before from Ned, however irrelevant it might have seemed at the time.

But also, Jon celebrates his nameday. Wouldn't Catelyn notice if her husbands bastard turned 14 before her own son did? I'd say that she would.

Regardless, Catelyn  is clear in her belief: Jon was conceived while Ned was off in the south fighting battles in the war. That is what she believes, she expresses absolutely no doubt about it. Does her belief make it so? Not necessarily, but as far as she is concerned, that's what happened.

 

So yes, Catelyn's beliefs do matter, in a way. If the children differ too much in development, (and I'm not just talking about size), with Jon being much further ahead, it seems almost impossible for her not to notice.

 

I also have a question for you, if you don't mind. I have no idea if his has been discussed earlier in the thread, and don't have the time to check. But at Harrenhal, Robert and Lyanna had long been betrothed. If she had gotten pregnant with his child, why did they not marry?

Nothing in Cat's statement says she found out about Jon at RR.

He had a man's needs, after all, and they had spent that year apart, Ned off at war in the south while she remained safe in her father's castle at Riverrun. Her thoughts were more of Robb, the infant at her breast, than of the husband she scarcely knew. He was welcome to whatever solace he might find between battles. And if his seed quickened, she expected he would see to the child's needs."

She is speaking about what Ned might be doing ( as in cheating) in relation to her taking care of Robb.

Cat's belief doesn't matter it doesn't affect "facts" I'm not arguing her belief.Her belief is clear, she doesn't know xactly when her statement shows she doesn't know and that she's working on bits and pieces of info she heard here and there.So no again her belief has nothing to do with the fact that she has no factual basis for her info.

To which i will say again there is nothing in her statements that indicate she found out about Jon at RR.She could have,but one must ask ourself from a plot point what's the point ( if you believe Jon was brought to WF) of Ned bypassing RR going to WF and leaving his wife and new born only to have the show up any way?

Which brings me to me second point this whole development point and Cat noticing and i will repeat this again with a rhetorical question.When would Cat be in the mindset to notice Jon.We already got her mindset.When Ned was off at war she wasn't thinking of him she was thinking of her duties to Robb.

So what makes you think when she has Robb to deal with still,a new household to set,paying respects to the dead that she would notice Jon whereever in that "big ass castle" he may have been with his wet nurse.

Noticing Jon would be the furtherst from her mind until he was old enough to be about and she couldn't avoid him.

The question as to wouldn't Cat notice if Jon's birthday occured before Robb.So what nobody can't lie about that and it became a habit just celebrating Jon's birthday a fourthnight after Robb's

As to your last point about them not getting married...Umm 16 year old girl finds out she's pregnant.She and her bethrothed commited a cardnal sin and now she's preggers with a child born out of the marriage bed whom the gods would frown upon.A tomboy who realizes her clothes are no longer fitting right and her moon blood has stopped coming.Ned called he a child woman so he knew she had flowered already.

What are her choices and what do you think she's most likely to do?

1.Be mature face the music and tell her dad?

2. Hormones increasing the fear about what could happen caused her to pull an Arya and run? 

3. Let someone take the fall in a horrific way by crying rape?

You choose.I choose she freaked out about things that included religious and social implications for her and the child and bolted like a Bolton.

If i were her and thinking clearly which we know is not likely to be the case given her condition i would have told daddy so that he could send a letter to Robert and speed up the wedding.If i were thinking clearly. 

 

[Julia H.]

On 2016. 04. 20. at 6:43 AM, wolfmaid7 said:

 

Read up on Eumelanin and Pheomelanin and keep westrosi racial and ethnic make up when you do.Keep in mind the Starks and their breeding habits. 

 

From your response it seems to me that my question wasn't fully understood (which may totally be my fault). This is what I see:

1. The golden hair is strongly associated with Lannisters. Even Lann the Clever is said to have had golden hair. Now, Lann the Clever is obviously the stuff of legends, however, the legend itself wasn't invented yesterday and it strongly indicates that Lannisters have been associated with the golden hair for centuries. Ned's research also indicates that the golden hair has been in the Lannister family for centuries at least.   

2. We know that the gold has always yielded before the Baratheon black, but that doesn't mean that the golden hair is not "dominant" in its own way, since it has remained the prevailing hair colour in the Lannister family. Correct me if I'm wrong, but the only present-day Lannister who doesn't have the golden hair is Tyrion, whose appearance is exceptional in every possible way and he seems to be the exception that proves the rule rather than anything else.  We know that the Lannisters have interbred with other families over the centuries (probably with families of various hair colour), yet they have remained golden-haired. 

3. We also know that even though the Lannisters have been in Westeros for centuries (or millennia if we can believe the legends), interbreeding with other noble families, their golden hair, which has successfully resisted any influence coming into the family from the Westerosi gene pool, has not become the dominant / typical hair colour of any other family in Westeros.

All that suggests that the Lannister hair colour is inherited from fathers - as a result, it will typically coincide with the Lannister name - while is isn't normally inherited from Lannister mothers (or, if it is, then it must be somehow "weakened" outside the Lannnister family so that it will eventually disappear) - which would explain why it hasn't become a dominant hair colour in any other Westerosi families. 

In real life, hair colour is not inherited in this way, in real life hair colour can be inherited both on the mother's and the father's side. Could it be a mere coincidence in the Lannister family? Maybe. But it's a coincidence that's been happening for centuries at least. Not very probable in terms of real life probability theory, but perfectly acceptable in a fantasy world.

We know that it is not how genetics usually works in Westeros even, as we have read of plenty of characters who have inherited their mothers' hair colour. It is simply that we have a family in the book that is strongly and almost exclusively associated with a specific hair colour. The motif is not based on some subtle real life scientific explanation. It is due to plot reasons and plot symbolism. 

The parentage of Cersei's children is not at all the only reason why the golden hair of the Lannisters is important. Colours are regularly used as symbols in this story. Gold is a colour loaded with symbolism even outside the ASOIAF world - it is a symbol of wealth and power, but also a symbol of vanity and appearances, and it reflects the typical Lannister values. Gold is also associated with the sun (or fire, especially when coupled with red) and the South. It doesn't only appear in the hair colour, of course. It is there in the Lannister sigil, in all the gold of Casterly Rock, in Lord Tywin's proverbial faeces, in the motto that "a Lannister always pays his debt", in Jaime's golden armour and golden hand. The golden hair is one more way to reinforce the symbolism.

Similar symbolism can be found elsewhere in the novel as well, for example, in the case of the Starks. The typical Stark brown (hair) and grey (eyes) are the typical colours of direwolves (perhaps also the colour of earth and bronze - things associated with the First Men). Jon is often described as having the classic Stark look and is also strongly associated with the North. His mentors are all Northerners. His role in the story reflects traditional Stark values and responsibilities: Night's Watch, fighting the Others as well as the King-Beyond-the-Wall, staying in the North, weirwood associations etc. In contrast, Robb, of the Tully looks,  goes South and addresses the problems found in the South (while ignoring the threat surfacing in the North). He becomes not only King-in-the-North, but King in the Riverlands as well, his primary advisers are his Tully relatives, he remains entangled in the Southern game of thrones while losing his ancestral seat in the North.

Similarly, Sansa, who looks like her mother, goes South and starts a "Southern" life - growing into a proper Southern lady, marrying a Southerner, becoming a stand-in for her mother in Littlefinger's scheme , even losing her direwolf; while Arya, who looks like Ned and Jon, cannot find a place in the South and remains a true Stark at heart even as she is trying to be "no one" - she does not give up Needle (a gift from Jon Snow) and she kills a Night's Watch deserter, performing a traditional duty of a Stark lord. She symbolically returns to the North impersonated by Jeyne Poole. While Littlefinger promises Sansa essentially a Southern army to reconquer Winterfell, a whole Northern army goes to Winterfell to rescue "Arya". 

Regarding Bran and Rickon: In the case of Rickon, for the moment it is difficult to tell what his Tully colours indicate. It may be simply that "he is not the quintessential Stark of this story", but there may be more to it. The story hasn't finished yet, and Rickon is too young to have made his own choices. Bran, however... he has gone far to the North and he seems to be "rooted" firmly in Northern culture, but his "job" is not a traditional Stark job. Furthermore, his mentor is a Southerner, who is related to him through the Blackwoods, which is at least partially a "Southern" connection, as we see the Blackwoods in the Riverlands, right where the Tullys are. Like Robb, Bran is also involved in a conflict with Southerners - cf. his fall from the tower, thanks to Jaime Lannister, the assassin sent by Joffrey. Both Robb and Bran have serious issues with the Lannisters, and even though Bran does not go South to resolve these issues, he is seriously affected by them and he has to come to terms with the consequences. 

The "Stark look" and the "Tully look" symbolize, to a large extent, the direction the stories of these characters take, the values they represent and especially to what extent they emulate the Stark ideal. Similarly, the "Lannister look", as a symbol, has great information value for the reader. 

[J. Stargaryen]

On 4/21/2016 at 11:31 PM, wolfmaid7 said:

That bolded is the point of reference and should be the point of reference because it indicates first and foremost ambiguity by the author concerning "chance met on campaign"....................So you quantify that "chance met on campaign" for me .You can't because "chamce on campaign is sooo broad, based on the bolded the rest of the sentence makes sense. She doesn't mean that Ned fathered a child in the first year of their marriage.She means she "found out" the first year of their marriage that Ned had fathered a child.......Not in their first year but on campaign.

No, it doesn't. Read the underlined part of the followup sentence.

It came as no surprise to her, in the first year of her marriage, to learn that Ned had fathered a child on some girl chance met on campaign. He had a man’s needs, after all, and they had spent that year apart, Ned off at war in the south while she remained safe in her father’s castle at Riverrun.

While the bold might be ambiguous on its own, the followup clarifies the meaning. Ned having a man's needs means, Ned would reasonably want to have sex. A thought which, when combined with the previous sentence, falls within a specific window of time; the first year of their marriage, which they had spent apart.

As for your "chance met on campaign" argument, it's much ado about nothing, since Ned didn't join the fighting in the rebellion until the Battle of the Bells. Shortly after which Ned and Cat were married, thus beginning "the first year of [their] marriage." In other words, not difficult at all to quantify.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

On 21-4-2016 at 6:31 AM, wolfmaid7 said:

Nothing in Cat's statement says she found out about Jon at RR.

He had a man's needs, after all, and they had spent that year apart, Ned off at war in the south while she remained safe in her father's castle at Riverrun. Her thoughts were more of Robb, the infant at her breast, than of the husband she scarcely knew. He was welcome to whatever solace he might find between battles. And if his seed quickened, she expected he would see to the child's needs."

She is speaking about what Ned might be doing ( as in cheating) in relation to her taking care of Robb.

 

Many men fathered bastards. Catelyn had grown up with that knowledge. It came as no surprise to her, in the first year of her marriage, to learn that Ned had fathered a child on some girl chance met on campaign.

 She learned in the first year of her marriage that Ned had fathered a child. And that was they year they had spend apart, in other words, the year of her marriage that Catelyn was spending at Riverrun.

 

On 21-4-2016 at 6:31 AM, wolfmaid7 said:

Cat's belief doesn't matter it doesn't affect "facts" I'm not arguing her belief.Her belief is clear, she doesn't know xactly when her statement shows she doesn't know and that she's working on bits and pieces of info she heard here and there.So no again her belief has nothing to do with the fact that she has no factual basis for her info.

To which i will say again there is nothing in her statements that indicate she found out about Jon at RR.She could have,but one must ask ourself from a plot point what's the point ( if you believe Jon was brought to WF) of Ned bypassing RR going to WF and leaving his wife and new born only to have the show up any way?

See above. 

 

On 21-4-2016 at 6:31 AM, wolfmaid7 said:

Which brings me to me second point this whole development point and Cat noticing and i will repeat this again with a rhetorical question.When would Cat be in the mindset to notice Jon.We already got her mindset.When Ned was off at war she wasn't thinking of him she was thinking of her duties to Robb.

So what makes you think when she has Robb to deal with still,a new household to set,paying respects to the dead that she would notice Jon whereever in that "big ass castle" he may have been with his wet nurse.

Noticing Jon would be the furtherst from her mind until he was old enough to be about and she couldn't avoid him.

You mean, why would Catelyn be in the mindset to notice the direct competition her own son has? The "threat" to her son? Ned fathered a bastard, that was not a problem. But he brought the child back to his home, insistent on raising the child at Winterfell, and refused to speak of the mother, whom Catelyn concludes Ned must have loved deeply. That makes Jon a threat to Robb, and it would have been in the interest of Catelyn, with her clear opinion on the dangers bastards can present, to take note of this competition.

 

On 21-4-2016 at 6:31 AM, wolfmaid7 said:

The question as to wouldn't Cat notice if Jon's birthday occured before Robb.So what nobody can't lie about that and it became a habit just celebrating Jon's birthday a fourthnight after Robb's.

Which means that everyone believes that Jon was born after Robb, in other words, that he is younger than Robb. Supporting the earlier quotes.

 

On 21-4-2016 at 6:31 AM, wolfmaid7 said:

As to your last point about them not getting married...Umm 16 year old girl finds out she's pregnant.She and her bethrothed commited a cardnal sin and now she's preggers with a child born out of the marriage bed whom the gods would frown upon.A tomboy who realizes her clothes are no longer fitting right and her moon blood has stopped coming.Ned called he a child woman so he knew she had flowered already.

What are her choices and what do you think she's most likely to do?

1.Be mature face the music and tell her dad?

2. Hormones increasing the fear about what could happen caused her to pull an Arya and run? 

3. Let someone take the fall in a horrific way by crying rape?

You choose.I choose she freaked out about things that included religious and social implications for her and the child and bolted like a Bolton.

If i were her and thinking clearly which we know is not likely to be the case given her condition i would have told daddy so that he could send a letter to Robert and speed up the wedding.If i were thinking clearly. 

 

Sixteen year old girl finds out she is pregnant by the guy she is supposed to marry. He clearly wants to marry. Move up the wedding, and the child is born "in wedlock", with all problems solved.

If she choses to run away, that's one thing, but that would still place her running away a significant amount of time before the start of the Rebellion.. Brandon and Rickard did not notice her being missing for such a long period of time? 

[wolfmaid7]

I will come back to answer these in more detail and then i think we should move on to some other aspect.However i want to point something out that puts this whole Cat sitaution to rest.What eveyrone believes is eclipse by how everyone knows and the person...the only person who is in the know hasn't devulged anything about Jon for obvious reasons.

 

Now RT your assertion hedges on Ned sending Cat some letter at RR right? 

And from serveral talks here and elsehwere i know you believe Jon was born at the toj.Which means he found out about Jon then and there.So according to you he picks up Jon and he heads to WF so your implying that sometime after picking up Jon and heading to WF he sends Cat word.Its the only time she could have found out after the toj........Now you see the whole problem with this.You can't use Cat's info my friend.

Now going back to our favorite quote:

Many men fathered bastards. Catelyn had grown up with that knowledge. It came as no surprise to her, in the first year of her marriage, to learn that Ned had fathered a child on some girl chance met on campaign."

The above quote again proves my point and thank you for finally achknowledging that the first year of their marriage Cat "learned" about Jon not that it had anything to do with his birth.

Back to the quote,Cat arriving at WF and finding out about Jon then would fall within that time.

Additianally,my statement again still stands Cat has to much on her plate to be inspecting Jon and what is she inspecting him for? These people don't think in terms of Piaget.Its not going to be Jon's head is up Robb's is down aha Jon is older.Its going to be Jon's a bastard what do you expect. These people's go to reaction when a bastard is doing well or better than a trueborn is always to make a positive about them into a negative.Cat's doubts about Jon was always protected by Ned not legitimizing him.The moment Robb wanted to look at Cat's train of thought.When it comes to Jon she's always ....Never been sure.

Jstar: Again that doesn't prove when Jon was born,Cat's entire thought processes prove she doesn't know..there's no way she could know that...That's the point.Her beliefs are based on everything else besides the "the fact" of which she doesn't know because Ned didn't tell her.

Again i suggest we move on because neither side is buddging.Let readers make up their minds and let the books indicate the truth.Plenty more to talk about.

[wolfmaid7]

On 4/24/2016 at 7:03 PM, J. Stargaryen said:

While the bold might be ambiguous on its own, the followup clarifies the meaning. Ned having a man's needs means, Ned would reasonably want to have sex. A thought which, when combined with the previous sentence, falls within a specific window of time; the first year of their marriage, which they had spent apart.

As for your "chance met on campaign" argument, it's much ado about nothing, since Ned didn't join the fighting in the rebellion until the Battle of the Bells. Shortly after which Ned and Cat were married, thus beginning "the first year of [their] marriage." In other words, not difficult at all to quantify.

HA! Ned could have reasonably had sex before they were married indicated by the story of the "fisherman's daughter." According to some he did....and that puts Jon as being older than Robb.Which goes to a wider point.Nobody cares unless someone makes it care worthy.

The following clarifies that Cat doesn't know she is drawing her on conclusions based info she got there's no window of time.When Ned joined the fighting is much ado about nothing.The campaign started when Arryn called his banners.

And to my other point if you believe that Ned picked up Jon from the toj and took him to WF from there that proves my point even more.You do realize that don't you? What she believes has no bearing on when Jon was actually born.

You cannot use her statements to to determine Jon's cnception and birth because it doesn't compute even when you eyeball it.

You and alot of others over and over again said no other theory is viable  because of the timeline.That has been the single hinge thrown.I've shown quite clearly that is false.

 

Happy Beltane everyone!

[wolfmaid7]

 

Double post.

[wolfmaid7]

On 1/15/2016 at 1:38 PM, nanother said:

 

I was thinking along these lines ... I said it earlier that I get the impression that this 'spring ritual' went wrong ... maybe Rhaegar tried to usurp the role of the Horned God (who's the Usurper now?). For most of his life he posed as this saviour figure, tPtwP, arguably a Sun figure, even though in the end he decided it wasn't him after all.. He went against his own nature to become a warrior so that he can match the archetype. There's nothing to say he wouldn't try to pose as the 'Horned God' figure as well. He might have decided that as this mighty 'sun warrior', he was the prefect partner for the 'goddess' in a spring ritual. And booooom, he screws it up, and winter returns. Dunno, it's probably utter crackpot. I'm really out of my depth with this stuff.

The day reminded me that i missed answering this post.This is an author connection.As i stated in the essay he wrote the ritual as part of the story.The characters themselves have no idea they enating such a ritual,it is for us the readers as some would have recognized it for what it was. So the ritual didn't go wrong it as it was suppose to with eveyone playing the role they were to.

The tourney itself happening when it did.The atmopsphere remenicient of in mordern terms of couples going " A maying" hooking up in the woods and getting it on.

The figure of the goddess and horned god engaing in the sacred marriage.Except again they are not aware of such a thing they are just two people who got swept up in everything that was going on and had sex.

Rhaegar the poor sap Wicker man who ended up getting sacrificed because his ratting out Lyanna started a chain of events that led to his death.

 

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

On 30-4-2016 at 4:31 PM, wolfmaid7 said:

Now RT your assertion hedges on Ned sending Cat some letter at RR right? 

That's one of the possibilities, yes. But the quote is clear on the fact that she learned it while being away from Ned, or, in other words, before ever setting foot in Winterfell.

 

Quote

And from serveral talks here and elsehwere i know you believe Jon was born at the toj.Which means he found out about Jon then and there.So according to you he picks up Jon and he heads to WF so your implying that sometime after picking up Jon and heading to WF he sends Cat word.Its the only time she could have found out after the toj........Now you see the whole problem with this.You can't use Cat's info my friend.

If I had spend a year away from home, fighting a war, I would send word that I was coming home. Whatever Ned might have send along with such a message (if the message came from him), why could it not have contained a short statement announcing he had a bastard son?

But, Ned is not the only potential source of Catelyn's information. He reconciliated with Robert. Does that mean he went to KL before returning north? I do feel that the possibility is big. If the babe was there with Ned, anyone could have send word. Was Hoster in KL, for example? Or Brynden?

Nor do we know Ned's route of returning home. Did he visit KL? Did he accompany his army home? If so, where did he meet with them? A few short months appear to have passed between the end of the war and Catelyn's arrival at Winterfell. Presenting plenty of time for Catelyn to learn about Jon. Ned, or someone else, could have send word to Riverrun during each day of those few months.

 

Quote

Now going back to our favorite quote:

Many men fathered bastards. Catelyn had grown up with that knowledge. It came as no surprise to her, in the first year of her marriage, to learn that Ned had fathered a child on some girl chance met on campaign."

The above quote again proves my point and thank you for finally achknowledging that the first year of their marriage Cat "learned" about Jon not that it had anything to do with his birth.

Finally acknowledging? 

On 8-4-2016 at 8:41 PM, Rhaenys_Targaryen said:

Wolfmaid, you are correct to say that "It came as no surprise to her, in the first year of her marriage, to learn that Ned had fathered a child on some girl chance met on campaign." does not rule out that she believes that Ned conceived Jon prior to her marriage, at an earlier point in the war. 

My point still stands. The other parts of that quote ("he was welcome to whatever solace he might find between battles." and "He had a man’s needs, after all, and they had spent that year apart, Ned off at war in the south while she remained safe in her father’s castle at Riverrun.") are clear in showing that not only did she learn of the fact within the first year of her marriage, what she learned is that the conception occured during the first year of their marriage. A statement that Ned later repeats to Robert.

 

Quote

Back to the quote,Cat arriving at WF and finding out about Jon then would fall within that time.

No, because she is clear. The year she learned about it, they had spend apart. Ned would have been at Winterfell when she arrived (if he didn't come to Riverrun for her). Thus, when she learned about it, they were not together. In other words, she was not yet at Winterfell.

 

Quote

Additianally,my statement again still stands Cat has to much on her plate to be inspecting Jon and what is she inspecting him for? These people don't think in terms of Piaget.Its not going to be Jon's head is up Robb's is down aha Jon is older.Its going to be Jon's a bastard what do you expect. These people's go to reaction when a bastard is doing well or better than a trueborn is always to make a positive about them into a negative.Cat's doubts about Jon was always protected by Ned not legitimizing him.The moment Robb wanted to look at Cat's train of thought.When it comes to Jon she's always ....Never been sure.

 

Concerning his moment of birth? There's nothing in her statements that suggests even the slightest amount of doubt.

 

Ned having a bastard is not Catelyn's problem. It is the fact that Jon arrives before her (and Robb), the fact that he is kept at Winterfell,  and the fact that Nd calls him son that hurts her feelings. The fact that she believes it is Ned's love for Jon's mother that is making him treat Jon the way he does. A man might be more inclined to favor the child he has by the woman that he loves, over the child by the woman he had to marry in order to receive military support. I'll say it again, for Catelyn, with her clear opinion on the fear of what a danger a bastard son could present to a trueborn son, it would be in her interest to notice Jon. 

[nanother]

On 2016. 05. 01. at 9:24 PM, wolfmaid7 said:

The day reminded me that i missed answering this post.This is an author connection.As i stated in the essay he wrote the ritual as part of the story.The characters themselves have no idea they enating such a ritual,it is for us the readers as some would have recognized it for what it was. So the ritual didn't go wrong it as it was suppose to with eveyone playing the role they were to.

The tourney itself happening when it did.The atmopsphere remenicient of in mordern terms of couples going " A maying" hooking up in the woods and getting it on.

The figure of the goddess and horned god engaing in the sacred marriage.Except again they are not aware of such a thing they are just two people who got swept up in everything that was going on and had sex.

Rhaegar the poor sap Wicker man who ended up getting sacrificed because his ratting out Lyanna started a chain of events that led to his death.

 

Right, I wasn't very clear in that post. I realise the Beltane parallel is an author connection, but that doesn't mean there wasn't actual magic at work. I think my line of reasoning was that, in the ASoIaF world, if something looks like a magic ritual, there's a good chance that it is a magic ritual, regardless of whether the participants know it or not. In any case, we do know that seasons are magically influenced, so if an apparent spring suddenly turns back into a harsh winter, there's IMO a good reason to suspect some magical mishap behind it. And if someone is likely to recognise magic and rituals at Harrenhal then it's Rhaegar 'TPtwP' Targaryen. Well, there's also Howland (whose role in the events is rather mysterious!), but that's beside the point now. So, I still wonder if there's something up with that, but I still feel out of depth, and I'm not about to start researching the mythology and traditions of spring rituals. I'll just wait and see where Martin takes it.

Also, while I agree that the Beltane parallel is very strong as far as the timing and Robert and Lyanna's roles, I'm not too convinced about Rhaegar as the wicker man. For one, the 'sacrifice' happened more than a year, possibly closer to two, after the 'ritual', so the connection is very remote (although, it  kind of works in terms of him not playing his intended role at Harrenhal). Also, 'ratting out Lyanna' has to be the least convincing explanation for the crowning I've seen so far. "Able, determined, deliberate, dutiful, single-minded" Rhaegar has a sudden urge to play a juvenile (and malicious) joke on R&L, in public, in a politically already fragile situation? How is that any better than him falling in love? And no, having sharp wits don't automatically imply wit, although they often go together (Tyrion, Littlefinger; but: Sam? Very smart, but I wouldn't call him witty). Also, I'm not sure why you assume that theStarks knew the Bael story in the first place. Martin goes to some lenghts to establish that some tales are told differently on different sides of the Wall, and that there's no mention of Bael in official Stark history, or in post-rebellion Old Nan tales. I think the chances of Martin suddenly revealing that this particular tale was in fact well known to this particular generation of Starks are slim. So, this is one of the more problematic aspects of your theory. I really think the crowning needs a better explanation for this to work.

[wolfmaid7]

11 hours ago, Rhaenys_Targaryen said:

That's one of the possibilities, yes. But the quote is clear on the fact that she learned it while being away from Ned, or, in other words, before ever setting foot in Winterfell.

 

If I had spend a year away from home, fighting a war, I would send word that I was coming home. Whatever Ned might have send along with such a message (if the message came from him), why could it not have contained a short statement announcing he had a bastard son?

But, Ned is not the only potential source of Catelyn's information. He reconciliated with Robert. Does that mean he went to KL before returning north? I do feel that the possibility is big. If the babe was there with Ned, anyone could have send word. Was Hoster in KL, for example? Or Brynden?

Nor do we know Ned's route of returning home. Did he visit KL? Did he accompany his army home? If so, where did he meet with them? A few short months appear to have passed between the end of the war and Catelyn's arrival at Winterfell. Presenting plenty of time for Catelyn to learn about Jon. Ned, or someone else, could have send word to Riverrun during each day of those few months.

 

Finally acknowledging? 

My point still stands. The other parts of that quote ("he was welcome to whatever solace he might find between battles." and "He had a man’s needs, after all, and they had spent that year apart, Ned off at war in the south while she remained safe in her father’s castle at Riverrun.") are clear in showing that not only did she learn of the fact within the first year of her marriage, what she learned is that the conception occured during the first year of their marriage. A statement that Ned later repeats to Robert.

 

No, because she is clear. The year she learned about it, they had spend apart. Ned would have been at Winterfell when she arrived (if he didn't come to Riverrun for her). Thus, when she learned about it, they were not together. In other words, she was not yet at Winterfell.

 

 

Concerning his moment of birth? There's nothing in her statements that suggests even the slightest amount of doubt.

 

Ned having a bastard is not Catelyn's problem. It is the fact that Jon arrives before her (and Robb), the fact that he is kept at Winterfell,  and the fact that Nd calls him son that hurts her feelings. The fact that she believes it is Ned's love for Jon's mother that is making him treat Jon the way he does. A man might be more inclined to favor the child he has by the woman that he loves, over the child by the woman he had to marry in order to receive military support. I'll say it again, for Catelyn, with her clear opinion on the fear of what a danger a bastard son could present to a trueborn son, it would be in her interest to notice Jon. 

Let's go with your idea that Ned sent a letter to Cat.I'm going to go with your belief that Jon was at toj

1. The only point Ned could have sent his letter is after toj on the way to WF.Again this has no bearing on Jon's conception and birth.

2.So he mentions Jon do you really think Ned is going to go into detail? No way ! If he sent such a note( Cat never mentions Ned as the one who told her.Infact the tone of that sounds like its mode of transmission was not Ned).That note would be at best

" Cat i want you to know that i fathered a bastard on a girl i met ......i'm very sorry."

Again no indication at alllll that Ned was the source of this.

RT we aren't getting anywhere with this.Nothing and i mean nothing in Cat statement or Ned's statement to Robert indicates that Jon was born at a particular time. This all hedges on the assumption by two people -Robert and Cat.To say that Jon was born at a certain time based on Cat's belief and Robert's assumption doesn't make sense.

So again i will hold to my point that the percieved timeline held by some doesn't hold up and Jon could have been born way earlier and hidden.

The myth puts Jon's conception at Harrenhal.

the varied ideas about when and by whom Ned was suppose to have fathered Jon is something to keep in mind as further proof that Jon's origin isn't as simple as counting 9mths from Dany's believed birth.

Jon's own ludicrous statement of him being a babe in arms when this summer began which would actually put him at 4 -5 yrs ( can't believe GRRM and his editor's are that BAD at math) is a dead giveaway.

The fact that GRRM shows time and time again that people will believe whatever story a person it authority say or there's to much happening to notice crap is defintely something to consider.

 As to your later point.You are not thinking as a woman with a young baby who was born "so small",moving into a new home post war and trying to find her place.

You are speaking as a person knowing there's a mystery seeing signs of a mystery and trying to figure it out.

What would Cat be looking for in observing Jon? Let's say she notices something "off" about Jon which she did far from that woman's mind would be "Jon must be older than Robb." Maybe it would would be : 

"It was not Lord Eddard’s face he saw floating before him, though; it was Lady Catelyn’s. With her deep blue eyes and hard cold mouth, she looked a bit like Stannis. Iron, he thought, but brittle. She was looking at him the way she used to look at him at Winterfell, whenever he had bested Robb at swords or sums or most anything. Who are you? that look had always seemed to say. This is not your place. Why are you here?

And we can tell from Jon that there was a point he was better than Robb at most anything.Might that not be an indication he was farther along until Robb and he reached a certain age where that wouldn't be a factor?

I rest my case with this.

5 hours ago, nanother said:

Right, I wasn't very clear in that post. I realise the Beltane parallel is an author connection, but that doesn't mean there wasn't actual magic at work. I think my line of reasoning was that, in the ASoIaF world, if something looks like a magic ritual, there's a good chance that it is a magic ritual, regardless of whether the participants know it or not. In any case, we do know that seasons are magically influenced, so if an apparent spring suddenly turns back into a harsh winter, there's IMO a good reason to suspect some magical mishap behind it. And if someone is likely to recognise magic and rituals at Harrenhal then it's Rhaegar 'TPtwP' Targaryen. Well, there's also Howland (whose role in the events is rather mysterious!), but that's beside the point now. So, I still wonder if there's something up with that, but I still feel out of depth, and I'm not about to start researching the mythology and traditions of spring rituals. I'll just wait and see where Martin takes it.

Also, while I agree that the Beltane parallel is very strong as far as the timing and Robert and Lyanna's roles, I'm not too convinced about Rhaegar as the wicker man. For one, the 'sacrifice' happened more than a year, possibly closer to two, after the 'ritual', so the connection is very remote (although, it  kind of works in terms of him not playing his intended role at Harrenhal). Also, 'ratting out Lyanna' has to be the least convincing explanation for the crowning I've seen so far. "Able, determined, deliberate, dutiful, single-minded" Rhaegar has a sudden urge to play a juvenile (and malicious) joke on R&L, in public, in a politically already fragile situation? How is that any better than him falling in love? And no, having sharp wits don't automatically imply wit, although they often go together (Tyrion, Littlefinger; but: Sam? Very smart, but I wouldn't call him witty). Also, I'm not sure why you assume that theStarks knew the Bael story in the first place. Martin goes to some lenghts to establish that some tales are told differently on different sides of the Wall, and that there's no mention of Bael in official Stark history, or in post-rebellion Old Nan tales. I think the chances of Martin suddenly revealing that this particular tale was in fact well known to this particular generation of Starks are slim. So, this is one of the more problematic aspects of your theory. I really think the crowning needs a better explanation for this to work.

Magic at work at Harrenhal? Not that i could see,or not that the characters acted in such a way.In the story when something looks like a magic ritual its is achknowledged by the characters as such.This is something a bit different all together.I totally agree with you on the seasons being magically influenced but again when it comes to the characters how many know that or believe that this is just the way things have always been.

Rhaegar's death and his father's were fruit of the poison tree.Their deaths led to Robert's rise and the changing of a new era for Westeros.So it being a ways of from Harrenhall doesn't matter in this case.

Now my explanation for Rhaegar's crowning has nothing to do with Robert as Jon's father.It has no bearing on anyone having sex with Lyann and having Jon unless you already have a belief that Rhaegar is the father and thus you percieve a certain interpretation of the crowning as being relevant to that.In this case no..As i said in my essay you are welcomed to believ  in his actions being political,a a result of manipulation or as i see it Rheagar making a jest;which is in his character. He just did it with a bunch of people who are known to not have that kind of sense in humor as Baelish and Robert pointed out.That kind of jesting gets a bas rise out of them. 

You say you wouldn't call him witty?

Rhaegar took no interest in the play of other children. The maesters were awed by his wits, but his father's knights would jest sourly that Baelor the Blessed had been born again (asos,Dany.Chpt 8)

Its exactly what he was.

I assume the Starks know the story because it is directly tied to how their line survived.There is no way Ned and they never heard of this.This isn't just a random tale,proximity alone to the Wildlings also gives that away.Them believing and achknowleding the story is  a different matter.

[nanother]

On 2016. 05. 05. at 6:59 AM, wolfmaid7 said:

You say you wouldn't call him witty?

Rhaegar took no interest in the play of other children. The maesters were awed by his wits, but his father's knights would jest sourly that Baelor the Blessed had been born again (asos,Dany.Chpt 8)

Its exactly what he was.

I assume the Starks know the story because it is directly tied to how their line survived.There is no way Ned and they never heard of this.This isn't just a random tale,proximity alone to the Wildlings also gives that away.Them believing and achknowleding the story is  a different matter.

Surely you know the difference between wits, and wit? The first (which Rhaegar is said to have) is basically synonymous with intelligence, while the second is the ability to  play clever jokes, like the one you attribute to Rhaegar (well, it has a broader meaning, but that's how it's used most often). They're both used countless times in the books in those respective meanings. The very fact thet maesters were impressed by it should be telling. They're not famous for their sense of humour. Neither was Baelor the Blessed AFAIK. But what makes this 'joke' seem really out of character for Rhaegar is Barristan's description of him as dutiful and competent. To do somethig so potentially scandalous, he should need more reason than a sudden urge to be an asshole.

As for the Bael story, by your reasoning there's no way he wouldn't have been at least mentioned in the chronicles of Winterfell. Yet that's just what TWoIaF states: "there are questions as to whether he truly existed or not ... the old chronicles of Winterfell say nothing of him". It's firmly pegged down as wildling lore, both in the books and TWoIaF, and there's no indication that it was ever known in Winterfell, in fact we're told outright that it wasn't. Is it possible that the tale somehow made its way down to Winterfell just for Lyanna&co's sake, then got censured after the rebellion? Sure, possible, but it's extremely unlikely that Martin would go down that route.

[wolfmaid7]

9 hours ago, nanother said:

Surely you know the difference between wits, and wit? The first (which Rhaegar is said to have) is basically synonymous with intelligence, while the second is the ability to  play clever jokes, like the one you attribute to Rhaegar (well, it has a broader meaning, but that's how it's used most often). They're both used countless times in the books in those respective meanings. The very fact thet maesters were impressed by it should be telling. They're not famous for their sense of humour. Neither was Baelor the Blessed AFAIK. But what makes this 'joke' seem really out of character for Rhaegar is Barristan's description of him as dutiful and competent. To do somethig so potentially scandalous, he should need more reason than a sudden urge to be an asshole.

As for the Bael story, by your reasoning there's no way he wouldn't have been at least mentioned in the chronicles of Winterfell. Yet that's just what TWoIaF states: "there are questions as to whether he truly existed or not ... the old chronicles of Winterfell say nothing of him". It's firmly pegged down as wildling lore, both in the books and TWoIaF, and there's no indication that it was ever known in Winterfell, in fact we're told outright that it wasn't. Is it possible that the tale somehow made its way down to Winterfell just for Lyanna&co's sake, then got censured after the rebellion? Sure, possible, but it's extremely unlikely that Martin would go down that route.

Yeah i do ,enough to know that it isn't as you make it sound.It's intelligence yes,but it is the ability to use anything i.e words,ideas,props to create the type of humor that will make you groan and chuckle depending on the audience.That's what it means.

If Rhaegar did have anything to do with Lyanna's disppearence( I doubt that) dutiful and competent still wouldn't apply and thus Barristan's statement goes out the window.By the way him being dutiful and competent has no bearing on his wits as i showed above.And no matter how you slice it,or what you believe his motives were.....He would still be an asshole.

We seem to look at these people "only" through the lens of calculating and or manipulative.However,that's not all.Spring had just come people we singing,dancing,drinking making merry,laughing etc.Rhaegar was playing his harp in the midst of all this so he wasn't in a corner being ant-social.Robert and him while not best of friends were friends else Robert would not have deemed what he thought Rhaegar did  as treachery.

As to your second point that is simple enough.Why would such a humilating story be penned in Winterfell? I'm talking about word of mouth and them hearing that story.Which again is easy to determine if they heard it.

1. Ned and Brandon's reaction when Rhaegar crowned Lyanna.....Dead dead giveaway.

2.The fact that this story is known from  the Citadel to the Wall to the Wildlings...But Jon and Bran's generation don't know a simple tale such as this? Hmmm

You telling my Qhorin know this tale and Benjen never did? Nahhhhhh.

[nanother]

9 hours ago, wolfmaid7 said:

Yeah i do ,enough to know that it isn't as you make it sound.It's intelligence yes,but it is the ability to use anything i.e words,ideas,props to create the type of humor that will make you groan and chuckle depending on the audience.That's what it means.

If Rhaegar did have anything to do with Lyanna's disppearence( I doubt that) dutiful and competent still wouldn't apply and thus Barristan's statement goes out the window.By the way him being dutiful and competent has no bearing on his wits as i showed above.And no matter how you slice it,or what you believe his motives were.....He would still be an asshole.

We seem to look at these people "only" through the lens of calculating and or manipulative.However,that's not all.Spring had just come people we singing,dancing,drinking making merry,laughing etc.Rhaegar was playing his harp in the midst of all this so he wasn't in a corner being ant-social.Robert and him while not best of friends were friends else Robert would not have deemed what he thought Rhaegar did  as treachery.

As to your second point that is simple enough.Why would such a humilating story be penned in Winterfell? I'm talking about word of mouth and them hearing that story.Which again is easy to determine if they heard it.

1. Ned and Brandon's reaction when Rhaegar crowned Lyanna.....Dead dead giveaway.

2.The fact that this story is known from  the Citadel to the Wall to the Wildlings...But Jon and Bran's generation don't know a simple tale such as this? Hmmm

You telling my Qhorin know this tale and Benjen never did? Nahhhhhh.

Well, I can't argue with any of that. Or rather, it seems entirely pointless to try. Let me just say, I find your sig highly ironic. Your ability to think outside the box is amazing (and that's not sarcasm), but your debating strategies hurt your case more than they help it.

 

On the whole, your starting point for this theory is pretty solid - pointing out how Robert is introduced through Jon's eyes, the parallels, the clues that Robert and Lyanna might have had a substantial relationship, the Beltane stuff - those are all good reasons to want it to be true. But there's stuff like that for the Dayne theory, for the Mance theory and even for Benjen, so I wouldn't pin this down as the most likely theory based on just that. Your answers to the timeline problems and the genetic concerns only show that it's not entirely impossible (which is impressive in itself, and kudos for doing so), but they don't even come close to convincing me that it's a likely direction for Martin to go. Basically, "R"+L=J is a possibility, and a possibility I rather like, but, for now, I seriously doubt that it'll turn out to be The Answer.

And with that, I think I'm done participating in this thread - seems like it achieved most of what can be done with the information we currently have, so ATM I'm content to wait until the next book is finally released (hopefully), and gives us something more to work with. I'll certainly keep all these alternate parentage theories in mind for the full re-read I'm planning to do before Winds.