Heresy Project X+Y=J: Robert + Lyanna

[Ygrain]

2 hours ago, Rhaenys_Targaryen said:

That is not entirely true. We know that Ned and Cat spend the first year of their marriage apart. Seeing as how Robb appears to be been born around the time of the Sack (when exactly cannot be stated exactly), it would appear that roughly (cannot stress the word roughly enough) three months passed since war's end until Cat and Robb went to Winterfell.

So while we might not know exactly, we do have some general idea.

In other words, Cat arrives with a baby that can just about hold his head on his own, and supposedly sees there her husband's bastard who is somewhere between sitting on his own or even standing up. Or, with some leeway, Robb sitting and Jon trying his first steps.

Nah, not suspicious at all.

[Bael's Bastard]

On 3/16/2016 at 1:06 AM, TimJames said:

Wolfmaid, you did a good job characterizing Robert and Lyanna. 

Had Lyanna lived, I think she and Robert would have been happy together.

I think the relationship between Robert and Cersei is meant to give us an indication of what the marriage between Robert and Lyanna would have looked like. Obviously not identical, obviously sans the incest, and with the difference of Robert actually going into the marriage loving Lyanna to extents he didn't love Cersei. But before long, Lyanna would have ended up as unhappy as Cersei.

Cersei knew Robert didn't love her, that he loved another (dead) woman more than he loved her, and that screwed around on her. Lyanna would have known Robert loved her, that he loved no other woman more than he loved her, and knew he would have screwed around on her, just as he screwed around on the woman he didn't love. I am no Robert hater. I like the character (or parts of him). I just think Lyanna would have hated some of the same things about Robert and marriage to Robert that Cersei does.

[Sly Wren]

8 minutes ago, Bael's Bastard said:

I think the relationship between Robert and Cersei is meant to give us an indication of what the marriage between Robert and Lyanna would have looked like. Obviously not identical, obviously sans the incest, and with the difference of Robert actually going into the marriage loving Lyanna to extents he didn't love Cersei. But before long, Lyanna would have ended up as unhappy as Cersei.

Cersei knew Robert didn't love her, that he loved another (dead) woman more than he loved her, and that screwed around on her. Lyanna would have known Robert loved her, that he loved no other woman more than he loved her, and knew he would have screwed around on her, just as he screwed around on the woman he didn't love. I am no Robert hater. I like the character (or parts of him). I just think Lyanna would have hated some of the same things about Robert and marriage to Robert that Cersei does.

But we're shown some differences: one: Robert really tried to get Cersei to go hunting with him. Cersei thinks how he used to beg her to come, to join in and share in his life, but that since it was her "alone time" with Jaime, she refused. But even Cersei notes that he really did try.

But Lyanna was very fond of and good riding--the idea that she and Robert would have found common pursuits and interests seems a lot more likely. A much better chance for a workable marriage. 

[Bael's Bastard]

2 minutes ago, Sly Wren said:

But we're shown some differences: one: Robert really tried to get Cersei to go hunting with him. Cersei thinks how he used to beg her to come, to join in and share in his life, but that since it was her "alone time" with Jaime, she refused. But even Cersei notes that he really did try.

But Lyanna was very fond of and good riding--the idea that she and Robert would have found common pursuits and interests seems a lot more likely. A much better chance for a workable marriage. 

I think Lyanna would have ended up miserable in a marriage to Robert, however more likely Lyanna and Robert might been to find common pursuits or interests than Cersei and Robert. I don't think a Lyanna/Robert marriage would have been identical to Cersei/Robert, but that Lyanna would have ended up miserable all the same. 

[TimJames]

3 hours ago, Bael's Bastard said:

I think the relationship between Robert and Cersei is meant to give us an indication of what the marriage between Robert and Lyanna would have looked like. Obviously not identical, obviously sans the incest, and with the difference of Robert actually going into the marriage loving Lyanna to extents he didn't love Cersei. But before long, Lyanna would have ended up as unhappy as Cersei.

Cersei knew Robert didn't love her, that he loved another (dead) woman more than he loved her, and that screwed around on her. Lyanna would have known Robert loved her, that he loved no other woman more than he loved her, and knew he would have screwed around on her, just as he screwed around on the woman he didn't love. I am no Robert hater. I like the character (or parts of him). I just think Lyanna would have hated some of the same things about Robert and marriage to Robert that Cersei does.

That's an unfair comparison.

Eddard constantly states in the books that the Robert we see is vastly different than the one he knew fifteen years ago. I believe that Robert became the depressed addict we know after and as a direct result of Lyanna's death. 

So it is possible that if Lyanna wasn't abducted, or if she survived her imprisonment in Dorne, then Robert would have been a vastly different person. If Lyanna didn't die then who would Robert have to mourn?

A lot of people like to assume that "Bobby B" (you can tell someone's a Robert-Hater if they call him that) is, akways has been, and was always destined to be a fat abusive drunk without redeeming or otherwise deeper qualities.

But at the end of the day, he's not a simple character. Onions may arguably stink, but it would be foolish to deny that they have layers.

[Wall Flower]

1 hour ago, TimJames said:

That's an unfair comparison.

Eddard constantly states in the books that the Robert we see is vastly different than the one he knew fifteen years ago. I believe that Robert became the depressed addict we know after and as a direct result of Lyanna's death. 

So it is possible that if Lyanna wasn't abducted, or if she survived her imprisonment in Dorne, then Robert would have been a vastly different person. If Lyanna didn't die then who would Robert have to mourn?

A lot of people like to assume that "Bobby B" (you can tell someone's a Robert-Hater if they call him that) is, akways has been, and was always destined to be a fat abusive drunk without redeeming or otherwise deeper qualities.

But at the end of the day, he's not a simple character. Onions may arguably stink, but it would be foolish to deny that they have layers.

Well, I admit to not being a fan of Robert, although I wouldn't classify him as evil or a villain. I agree that Ned does think that he's not the man he was but that is often undercut by Ned's specific memories of Robert. For example, when he thinks that Robert would do as he wanted, as he always had; that Robert had always been a man who knew how to take his pleasures, a man of huge appetites; when he recalls how Robert would vow undying love to various women in the morning and forget their names by evening. When Ned goes on his KL brothel crawl and remembers Lyanna's words about Robert, the implication is that Ned thinks she may have been right.

I think it's naive to imagine that Robert would magically become a different man if only he had the love of a good woman - that's really the whole point of Lyanna's quote about him. It also leaves aside the fact that Lyanna may not have loved him in return and that she wasn't the Lyanna Robert imagined her to be. Robert loved Jon Arryn (in a somewhat different fashion!) but Jon's best efforts never succeeded in making a more responsible, less hedonistic man or King.

[wolfmaid7]

12 hours ago, Rhaenys_Targaryen said:

That is not entirely true. We know that Ned and Cat spend the first year of their marriage apart. Seeing as how Robb appears to be been born around the time of the Sack (when exactly cannot be stated exactly), it would appear that roughly (cannot stress the word roughly enough) three months passed since war's end until Cat and Robb went to Winterfell.

So while we might not know exactly, we do have some general idea.

Like i pointed out earlier in this thread or it may have been another one of the prospective threads this entire line of thought is a flawed one.Unfortunately,you like most of the proponents of the "popular timeline" have erred here because you misinterpreted Cat's statement to mean something it wasn't.Let's look at Cat's statement again in context:

"Many men fathered bastards. Catelyn had grown up with that knowledge. It came as no surprise to her, in the first year of her marriage, to learn that Ned had fathered a child on some girl chance met on campaign. He had a man’s needs, after all, and they had spent that year apart,...."(what year?The year she "FOUND OUT HE FATHERED A BASTARD")

The reference point that's ignored over and over again is that Cat "learned' that Ned had fathered a bastard.When did she learn this? During the first year of their marriage.Yes it is true they spent the first year of their marriage apart but that has nothing to do with Jon's conception or birth it on;y correlates to Cat's finding out that Ned fathered a bastard.

The fact that she uses 'chance met on campaign" should make it even more apparent how much this doesn't say anything about when Jon was concieved or born.Therefore,the whole line of thought using Robb or Cat's statement as any determinant to figure this out is flawed.

 

9 hours ago, Ygrain said:

In other words, Cat arrives with a baby that can just about hold his head on his own, and supposedly sees there her husband's bastard who is somewhere between sitting on his own or even standing up. Or, with some leeway, Robb sitting and Jon trying his first steps.

Nah, not suspicious at all.

I don't know how many times this arguement will be used but its a poor one. When are we going to stop imposing our 20th system on a fictional world that mimics medievel times.These people don't have Jean Piaget's theorie's in their libraries.They don't see things interms of milestones and childhood development.They have no concept of what's suppose to happen when and how in a child's developmental stage.Frack they don't know children have developmental stages and milestones.Its weak or strong and for a bastard anything that can be seen as positive will be turned into a negative.

Next,Cat has come into a strange place.The shit on the fan is just falling off it.She's has a new baby,new home she has to help set funerals to attend when exactly is she going to scrutinize Jon and why would she? What is she looking for?People in the end see what they want and expect to see.Jon has been labeled Ned's bastard he will be viewed as second son and there's a reason for that even if he's older than Robb.It's to keep him in his propoer place.This arguement like the above lay on flawed foundation.

8 hours ago, Bael's Bastard said:

I think the relationship between Robert and Cersei is meant to give us an indication of what the marriage between Robert and Lyanna would have looked like. Obviously not identical, obviously sans the incest, and with the difference of Robert actually going into the marriage loving Lyanna to extents he didn't love Cersei. But before long, Lyanna would have ended up as unhappy as Cersei.

Cersei knew Robert didn't love her, that he loved another (dead) woman more than he loved her, and that screwed around on her. Lyanna would have known Robert loved her, that he loved no other woman more than he loved her, and knew he would have screwed around on her, just as he screwed around on the woman he didn't love. I am no Robert hater. I like the character (or parts of him). I just think Lyanna would have hated some of the same things about Robert and marriage to Robert that Cersei does.

I don't agree with this.Cersie and Lyanna were two different people and Sly wren is right about Robert and Lyanna's compatability.I pointed it out as well in the essay.Both wild,willful and loved to ride there's no reason that they wouldn't get along.I see no reason why Robert would screw around on Lyanna? Everthying Robert wanted in a woman he got in Lyanna.Try as he did with Cersie,Cersie never forgave him for calling out Lyanna's name on their wedding night..She witheld her pussy,she was cold so he f**ked around.

8 hours ago, Sly Wren said:

But we're shown some differences: one: Robert really tried to get Cersei to go hunting with him. Cersei thinks how he used to beg her to come, to join in and share in his life, but that since it was her "alone time" with Jaime, she refused. But even Cersei notes that he really did try.

But Lyanna was very fond of and good riding--the idea that she and Robert would have found common pursuits and interests seems a lot more likely. A much better chance for a workable marriage. 

3 hours ago, Wall Flower said:

Well, I admit to not being a fan of Robert, although I wouldn't classify him as evil or a villain. I agree that Ned does think that he's not the man he was but that is often undercut by Ned's specific memories of Robert. For example, when he thinks that Robert would do as he wanted, as he always had; that Robert had always been a man who knew how to take his pleasures, a man of huge appetites; when he recalls how Robert would vow undying love to various women in the morning and forget their names by evening. When Ned goes on his KL brothel crawl and remembers Lyanna's words about Robert, the implication is that Ned thinks she may have been right.

I think it's naive to imagine that Robert would magically become a different man if only he had the love of a good woman - that's really the whole point of Lyanna's quote about him. It also leaves aside the fact that Lyanna may not have loved him in return and that she wasn't the Lyanna Robert imagined her to be. Robert loved Jon Arryn (in a somewhat different fashion!) but Jon's best efforts never succeeded in making a more responsible, less hedonistic man or King.

To the bolded Lyanna was right but again this premise is wrong because the fact is that we are dealing with two different women.He cheated on Cersie and it is plain why he did per his own words. She witheld her pussy and she was cold as ice....Lovely to look at but cold.The man wanted to ride,and have a woman squealing in his bed.......Cersie nada she was busy boinking her brother.

As to your statement about it being naive that Robert would change.Robert pre Cersie was never a cheater as a single man he did what most young men did.The point of Lyanna's quote and Ned's remembering it was relevant to one woman only and that was Cersie his relationship with Lyanna has nothing to do with his relationship with Cersie.

I think Lyanna and Robert were emotiionally intimately involved and that culminated with sex at Harrenhal during the tourney.Deciphering if they had a relationship or not is plain in Robert's behavior,words and feelings as well as the insider description and testimony. So unless Robert,i repeat unless Robert and every insider were completely out of touch with reality Lyanna and Robert were involved intimately.All we have to do is look at the language they use,look at Robert's behavior.

[corbon]

5 hours ago, TimJames said:

A lot of people like to assume that "Bobby B" (you can tell someone's a Robert-Hater if they call him that) is, akways has been, and was always destined to be a fat abusive drunk without redeeming or otherwise deeper qualities.

I think this is hyperbole rather than a deliberate straw man.
What people argue, based on the evidence, not data-less assumptions, is that Robert always was a man who allowed his excesses free reign. Drink, women, fighting, whichever excesses he could indulge he did. In his youth he was handsome, muscled like maidens fantasy etc. He had the same excesses then, they just didn't show up on his physique as they don't on an active young mans body. But over the years those appetites took a toll.

Robert tells Ned about life in KL and Ned reflects on how Robert was always that way:
Robert Baratheon had always been a man of huge appetites
...

At Harrenhal, Robert is drinking heavily while others are singing and dancing:
The storm lord drank down the knight of skulls and kisses in a wine-cup war.

At the Eyrie he starts food fights:
The king's melancholy melted away with the morning mist, and before long Robert was eating an orange and waxing fond about a morning at the Eyrie when they had been boys. "… had given Jon a barrel of oranges, remember? Only the things had gone rotten, so I flung mine across the table and hit Dacks right in the nose. You remember, Redfort's pock-faced squire? He tossed one back at me, and before Jon could so much as fart, there were oranges flying across the High Hall in every direction." He laughed uproariously, and even Ned smiled, remembering.
This was the boy he had grown up with, he thought; this was the Robert Baratheon he'd known and loved

He has a bastard in the Eyrie by the time he was 17:
Ned remembered Robert's first child as well, a daughter born in the Vale when Robert was scarcely more than a boy himself. A sweet little girl; the young lord of Storm's End had doted on her. He used to make daily visits to play with the babe, long after he had lost interest in the mother. Ned was often dragged along for company, whether he willed it or not. The girl would be seventeen or eighteen now, he realized; older than Robert had been when he fathered her.

He fucked an entire brothel while wounded and hiding from JonCon - and pining away for his lost love Lyanna, being raped by Rhaegar at the same time ([/s]):
They say King Robert fucked my mother when he hid here, back before the battle. Not that he didn't have all the other girls too, but Leslyn says he liked my ma the best." The girl did have hair like the old king's, Arya thought; a great thick mop of it, as black as coal. That doesn't mean anything, though. Gendry has the same kind of hair too. Lots of people have black hair."I'm named Bella," the girl told Gendry. "For the battle.

He impregnated a noble maiden on his brothers wedding bed on his brothers wedding night:
Robert's bastard. The one he fathered on my wedding night, in the very bed they'd made up for me and my bride. Delena was a Florent, and a maiden when he took her, so Robert acknowledged the babe. Edric Storm, they call him.
(Edric's age isn't clear to me but he's 3" taller and stronger than Davos' 12 year old son, so lets say Edric is at least 10 years old).

Then we have Robert's known 'adventures' in more recent times.
Plus we have what Lyanna said of him to Ned, which surely indicates she knew Robert didn't just have one relationship to make the baby Mya.

So all in all we have a consistent pattern of behavior shown to us from Robert. From his time in the Eyrie, to Harrenhal, to the war, to immediately after the war, to later life, there is no time when the evidence doesn't point to him being a man who drinks too much and fucks around.
Which does not mean he did not have good qualities as well, its just purest denial to ignore that he always had these particular bad qualities

[Makk]

I admit I haven't read all of this thread and I don't particularly like the concept. Has it been discussed that if it was L + R = J, why would Ned have gone to all the trouble in hiding Jon's lineage?  He didn't even tell Catelyn. This simply doesn't make sense to me.

[wolfmaid7]

42 minutes ago, corbon said:

I think this is hyperbole rather than a deliberate straw man.
What people argue, based on the evidence, not data-less assumptions, is that Robert always was a man who allowed his excesses free reign. Drink, women, fighting, whichever excesses he could indulge he did. In his youth he was handsome, muscled like maidens fantasy etc. He had the same excesses then, they just didn't show up on his physique as they don't on an active young mans body. But over the years those appetites took a toll.

Robert tells Ned about life in KL and Ned reflects on how Robert was always that way:
Robert Baratheon had always been a man of huge appetites
...

At Harrenhal, Robert is drinking heavily while others are singing and dancing:
The storm lord drank down the knight of skulls and kisses in a wine-cup war.

At the Eyrie he starts food fights:
The king's melancholy melted away with the morning mist, and before long Robert was eating an orange and waxing fond about a morning at the Eyrie when they had been boys. "… had given Jon a barrel of oranges, remember? Only the things had gone rotten, so I flung mine across the table and hit Dacks right in the nose. You remember, Redfort's pock-faced squire? He tossed one back at me, and before Jon could so much as fart, there were oranges flying across the High Hall in every direction." He laughed uproariously, and even Ned smiled, remembering.
This was the boy he had grown up with, he thought; this was the Robert Baratheon he'd known and loved

He has a bastard in the Eyrie by the time he was 17:
Ned remembered Robert's first child as well, a daughter born in the Vale when Robert was scarcely more than a boy himself. A sweet little girl; the young lord of Storm's End had doted on her. He used to make daily visits to play with the babe, long after he had lost interest in the mother. Ned was often dragged along for company, whether he willed it or not. The girl would be seventeen or eighteen now, he realized; older than Robert had been when he fathered her.

He fucked an entire brothel while wounded and hiding from JonCon - and pining away for his lost love Lyanna, being raped by Rhaegar at the same time ([/s]):
They say King Robert fucked my mother when he hid here, back before the battle. Not that he didn't have all the other girls too, but Leslyn says he liked my ma the best." The girl did have hair like the old king's, Arya thought; a great thick mop of it, as black as coal. That doesn't mean anything, though. Gendry has the same kind of hair too. Lots of people have black hair."I'm named Bella," the girl told Gendry. "For the battle.

He impregnated a noble maiden on his brothers wedding bed on his brothers wedding night:
Robert's bastard. The one he fathered on my wedding night, in the very bed they'd made up for me and my bride. Delena was a Florent, and a maiden when he took her, so Robert acknowledged the babe. Edric Storm, they call him.
(Edric's age isn't clear to me but he's 3" taller and stronger than Davos' 12 year old son, so lets say Edric is at least 10 years old).

Then we have Robert's known 'adventures' in more recent times.
Plus we have what Lyanna said of him to Ned, which surely indicates she knew Robert didn't just have one relationship to make the baby Mya.

So all in all we have a consistent pattern of behavior shown to us from Robert. From his time in the Eyrie, to Harrenhal, to the war, to immediately after the war, to later life, there is no time when the evidence doesn't point to him being a man who drinks too much and fucks around.
Which does not mean he did not have good qualities as well, its just purest denial to ignore that he always had these particular bad qualities

Corbon your still missing it or you are still arguing a point that's trying to spin a negative.

Robert liked f**king and drinking.Robert would have always liked f**cking and drinking.We know that the man had a huge appetite for sex and wine...perfect,mark of the Horned god.

Maybe this is true maybe its not but its to make a point. My husband was a ladies man high libido..loved f**cking,loved f**cking with said ladies.You know what hasn't changed him wanting to f**k a lot you know what has.He's doing it with one woman. See where i'm going with this.Robert as he said wanting to drink,ride his horse or some shit like that  and have a woman squealing in his bed didn't have to change.Nothing is wrong with him having a huge appetite nothing is wrong with him drinking and having fun.

I underline and bolded something because i don't know its relevance.

So he started food fights and? Ned cracked up about it and remembered thhose days fondly.

Ok he had a bastard when we was young,he has many bastards.Jon Snow is in good company then.

Really Corbon? I'm a bit suprised you're going along with the " they say Robert fucked my mother,well he fucked all the girls" rumor.Really Robert fucked an entire brothal of women while he was injured and hiding out...and Ned having shown up after all of this,hearing this knowing that Robert was bethothed to his sister kept speaking to him after this.Ned never mentions Robert openly shaming his sister. Fucking a brothal full of women while you bethrothed to my sister who i assured you would be faithful too didn't draw any anger against Robert.Hmmm.

At Harrenhal Robert drunk down the Knight of skull and kisses in a wine-cup war. Sooooo he beat "another" dude in a drinking game.Come on now don't make it sound as if nobody else was drinking.There was a lot of drinking at Harrenhal not only Robert.Tell the truth and shame the devil. I think you frogot a piece.

"Under Harren's roof he ate and drank with the wolves, and many of their sworn swords besides, barrowdown men and moose and bears and mermen. The dragon prince sang a song so sad it made the wolf maid sniffle, but when her pup brother teased her for crying she poured wine over his head. A black brother spoke, asking the knights to join the Night's Watch. The storm lord drank down the knight of skulls and kisses in a wine-cup war

Robert liked to drink and he loved to fuck......to which i say so what.Lyanna said anything about his drinking? She said anything about Robert having a hig libido.

She was concerned that she wouldn't be the only one he fucked.Not anthing about feelings mind you i wonder why? But that she wouldn't be the only one.

[corbon]

6 minutes ago, wolfmaid7 said:

Corbon your still missing it

I wasn't engaging you, or your points. We already quite clearly disagree. I don't see any logic or textual basis in your claims, and you see apparently no logic in mine, despite the clear textual examples.  Thats fine.
I was showing that TimJames' characterization of other readers was neither accurate as to people making "assumptions" (they make considered judgements based on evidence provided in the books - I know you don't agree with those particular judgements, but that doesn't make them un-evidenced assumptions) nor accurate as to what those "assumptions" were (I don't recall anyone, let alone lots of people, claiming Robert was always abusive, or always fat, or without redeeming or deeper qualities).

[wolfmaid7]

27 minutes ago, Makk said:

I admit I haven't read all of this thread and I don't particularly like the concept. Has it been discussed that if it was L + R = J, why would Ned have gone to all the trouble in hiding Jon's lineage?  He didn't even tell Catelyn. This simply doesn't make sense to me.

Yes it has been.

Jon wouldn't be safe in Kingslanding.His physical and emotional well being would be at risk.

As i said before its highly unlikely gven Lyanna's condition she would have time to really go in detail about what should happen to Jon.A simple "Promise me Ned Promise me...protect my son or keep him safe" would suffice.

Ned was the one who determined what protecting Jon looked like and Lannister presence around Robert would be enough to say hell no  especially after Tywin's display.

Over and over again GRRM has shown that Lannisters aren't afraid of killing children to futher their goals.How many of Robert's bastards did Cersie/Joff have killed.

And let's say Jon did grow up with Robert and Robert did legitimize him the stain of bastardry still remains

 

"The old High Septon told my father that king's laws are one thing, and the laws of the gods another. Trueborn children are made in a marriage bed and blessed by the Father and the Mother, but bastards are born of lust and weakness, he said. King Aegon decreed that his bastards were not bastards, but he could not change their nature. The High Septon said all bastards are born to betrayal”---Egg to Dunk.

 

“Bastard children were born from lust and lies, men said; their nature was wanton and treacherous. Once Jon had meant to prove them wrong, to show his lord father he could as good a true son as Robb Stark.” ---Jon Snow.

 

 “You know I cannot take him south. There will be no place for him at court. A boy with a bastard’s name . . . you know what they will say of him. He will be shunned (AGOT,Cat).

 

“If the gods frowned so on bastards, he thought dully, why did they fill men with such lusts? Ned.”

 

[TimJames]

30 minutes ago, wolfmaid7 said:

Really Corbon? I'm a bit suprised you're going along with the " they say Robert fucked my mother,well he fucked all the girls" rumor.Really Robert fucked an entire brothal of women while he was injured and hiding out...and Ned having shown up after all of this,hearing this knowing that Robert was bethothed to his sister kept speaking to him after this.Ned never mentions Robert openly shaming his sister. Fucking a brothal full of women while you bethrothed to my sister who i assured you would be faithful too didn't draw any anger against Robert.Hmmm.

Yeah, I don't think Bella is Robert's girl. Baratheons don't have curly hair, and Robert isn't the only Black Haired man on the planet. 

Plus the way Connington describes it, Robert was running from hiding place to hiding place mere seconds ahead of Royal Soldiers. Not enough time to sleep with a whole brothel. 

[wolfmaid7]

6 minutes ago, corbon said:

I wasn't engaging you, or your points. We already quite clearly disagree. I don't see any logic or textual basis in your claims, and you see apparently no logic in mine, despite the clear textual examples.  Thats fine.
I was showing that TimJames' characterization of other readers was neither accurate as to people making "assumptions" (they make considered judgements based on evidence provided in the books - I know you don't agree with those particular judgements, but that doesn't make them un-evidenced assumptions) nor accurate as to what those "assumptions" were (I don't recall anyone, let alone lots of people, claiming Robert was always abusive, or always fat, or without redeeming or deeper qualities).

Is there a rule or something that i couldn't answer to you??? Your right i don't see any logic to what you are saying but that doesn't mean that if you say something incorrect i can't jump in.

You just misrepresented the "evidence" you provided and i showed you exactly how.

1. You claimed Robert was drinking and getting drunk while everyone was singing and dancing.....That's not true as you left out the piece that indicated he wasn't.

2. You tried to make positive negatives by somehow insinuating that because Robert started a food fight in the Erie that's somehow bad.

 

3.I actually agree with you on Robert liking to f**ck and drink but i'm not saying that had to change only that the number of women he did it with did.And of all the things Lyanna was concerned about it wasn't his drinking or liking to f**k.It was the potential of not f**king her that was the problem.

So i'm a bit confused as to what textual evidence your logic is based on.Hey Corbon some people have those characterizations based on experiance.It happens and sometimes some get pull into the whole even if its not a true representation of all. I don't think he meant everyone.Its just the way we speak sometimes. 

[TimJames]

35 minutes ago, wolfmaid7 said:

Corbon your still missing it or you are still arguing a point that's trying to spin a negative.

Robert liked f**king and drinking.Robert would have always liked f**cking and drinking.We know that the man had a huge appetite for sex and wine...perfect,mark of the Horned god.

Maybe this is true maybe its not but its to make a point. My husband was a ladies man high libido..loved f**cking,loved f**cking with said ladies.You know what hasn't changed him wanting to f**k a lot you know what has.He's doing it with one woman. See where i'm going with this.Robert as he said wanting to drink,ride his horse or some shit like that  and have a woman squealing in his bed didn't have to change.Nothing is wrong with him having a huge appetite nothing is wrong with him drinking and having fun.

I underline and bolded something because i don't know its relevance.

So he started food fights and? Ned cracked up about it and remembered thhose days fondly.

Ok he had a bastard when we was young,he has many bastards.Jon Snow is in good company then.

Really Corbon? I'm a bit suprised you're going along with the " they say Robert fucked my mother,well he fucked all the girls" rumor.Really Robert fucked an entire brothal of women while he was injured and hiding out...and Ned having shown up after all of this,hearing this knowing that Robert was bethothed to his sister kept speaking to him after this.Ned never mentions Robert openly shaming his sister. Fucking a brothal full of women while you bethrothed to my sister who i assured you would be faithful too didn't draw any anger against Robert.Hmmm.

At Harrenhal Robert drunk down the Knight of skull and kisses in a wine-cup war. Sooooo he beat "another" dude in a drinking game.Come on now don't make it sound as if nobody else was drinking.There was a lot of drinking at Harrenhal not only Robert.Tell the truth and shame the devil. I think you frogot a piece.

"Under Harren's roof he ate and drank with the wolves, and many of their sworn swords besides, barrowdown men and moose and bears and mermen. The dragon prince sang a song so sad it made the wolf maid sniffle, but when her pup brother teased her for crying she poured wine over his head. A black brother spoke, asking the knights to join the Night's Watch. The storm lord drank down the knight of skulls and kisses in a wine-cup war

Robert liked to drink and he loved to fuck......to which i say so what.Lyanna said anything about his drinking? She said anything about Robert having a hig libido.

She was concerned that she wouldn't be the only one he fucked.Not anthing about feelings mind you i wonder why? But that she wouldn't be the only one.

Once again, VERY good points from The Wolfsmaid. You, madam, are a Polymath!

[wolfmaid7]

4 minutes ago, TimJames said:

Yeah, I don't think Bella is Robert's girl. Baratheons don't have curly hair, and Robert isn't the only Black Haired man on the planet. 

Plus the way Connington describes it, Robert was running from hiding place to hiding place mere seconds ahead of Royal Soldiers. Not enough time to sleep with a whole brothel. 

Yep i agree. The whole Bella as Robert's is a wash.and great point about Robert moving around so much during.

3 minutes ago, TimJames said:

Once again, VERY good points from The Wolfsmaid. You, madam, are a Polymath!

You know what's interesting when Howland said he drank with the wolves,he didn't separate them.I wonder if Lyanna was drinking too? Finally i'm sleepy so talk to you all again in a few hours.

[King Crow's Eye]

Hello wolfmaid,

Very interesting theory and I find your comparisons between Robert and Jon as something that cannot be overlooked. But there is one thing that gnaws at me about it all:

When Eddard arrived at the Tower of Joy to save his sister Lyanna, why were there still three Kingsguard knights present, if not to protect Rhaegar's child? They would certainly not protect the rebel lord's bastard child, right? If anything, why wouldn't they have taken Lyanna and the child to King's Landing as Aerys' hostages? Why stay and die while the royal family they have sworn to protect is actively being killed, unless to ensure the furtherance of the line? 

I haven't completely bought into either theory as of now, but let me know what you think...

 

I just wanted to add a quote here from Ned's dream:

"... Ser Gerold pointed out. “The Kingsguard does not flee."

“Then or now,” said Ser Arthur. He donned his helm.

“We swore a vow,” explained old Ser Gerold."

[Wall Flower]

Ok Wolfmaid, I must be crazy but I'll bite again. Are you seriously trying to suggest that Robert was celibate for years on end once he became betrothed to Lyanna - since the only time they appear to have been together to have sex was at Harrenhal? The man who told Ned that he was too hard on himself over (apparently) fathering a bastard and dishonouring his wife when they were apart. Why even bring Bella into it and have Arya reflect on her hair being the same as Gendry's (who we know is Robert's bastard) if we are just meant to dismiss the story as untrue? By the way, I don't think we know how long Robert was hiding in the brothel before JonCon's army arrived, only that he was moved around once they arrived and he was sufficiently healed to fight and nearly kill JonCon by the time Ned came on the scene.

Westeros is not under prohibition, everyone has wine with their food at a feast but that is not the same as drinking someone down in a 'wine cup war'. What Howland observes is Robert drinking his mate under the table while his betrothed is sniffling over another man's song. Where is the interaction of Robert and Lyanna as a couple that might lead to sexy times?

Lyanna says that Robert will never keep to one bed. As we've discussed before, I read that as meaning that she didn't think it was in his nature to be faithful, presumably because he liked variety and lost interest quickly (by evening as Ned says) once he'd run his quarry to ground. Robert is not a real person with a capacity for change, he's a literary creation who is shown to have lived down to Lyanna's assessment of him. 

 

[Ygrain]

13 hours ago, Bael's Bastard said:

I think Lyanna would have ended up miserable in a marriage to Robert, however more likely Lyanna and Robert might been to find common pursuits or interests than Cersei and Robert. I don't think a Lyanna/Robert marriage would have been identical to Cersei/Robert, but that Lyanna would have ended up miserable all the same. 

Common interests don't prevent people from cheating, nor do they make the cheated person feel any better for it. In fact, worse than if they had been indifferent towards the cheating spouse.

Plus, that comment from Ned how Robert never really knew Lyanna and saw only her beauty, not the iron underneath. Robert would have been for a very nasty surprise, had Lyanna confronted him about his whoring.

[corbon]

2 hours ago, wolfmaid7 said:

Is there a rule or something that i couldn't answer to you??? Your right i don't see any logic to what you are saying but that doesn't mean that if you say something incorrect i can't jump in.

I didn't say you couldn't answer, I explained what the purpose of my post was and indicated that I don't wish to discuss with you further. I'm not trying to be rude to you personally by refusing to engage, just we've been here before enough and we both know exactly what the other thinks. Frankly, I am content to let your arguments for your own case lie as in my opinion they show up your case just fine.

I'm not prepared to let your lies about me lie though.

2 hours ago, wolfmaid7 said:

You just misrepresented the "evidence" you provided and i showed you exactly how.

1. You claimed Robert was drinking and getting drunk while everyone was singing and dancing.....That's not true as you left out the piece that indicated he wasn't.

You lie. I showed Robert drank heavily at a party while others sang and danced. I didn't say that everyone sang and danced, or that no one else drank.
But Robert's principal action is to drink someone under the table. There is no misrepresentation here because he is drinking heavily and others are singing and dancing.

2 hours ago, wolfmaid7 said:

2. You tried to make positive negatives by somehow insinuating that because Robert started a food fight in the Erie that's somehow bad.

The point that was being made by me that Robert is a man of excess, and that he always was (the claim was made in the name post that I was answering that Robert's excesses started only after and as a result of losing Lyanna). Starting a food fight is a minor thing, but its an example of excess from a young age. He didn't suddenly change after Lyanna's loss. He was always a character of appetites, excess and little self discipline and it shows in every aspect of his life, even starting food fights.
I didn't make positives into negatives. In that case I just gave the quote with no commentary. Heck, I didn't even call it a negative. But even you instinctively understood that association and tried to claim I created it while somehow also claiming that starting a food fight is a positive.

Other than those two points, I don't wish to argue your interpretations or logic about Robert. I am happy people read them and make their own judgement, so long as they have also had opportunity to see the base text and not be limited to your particular spin..

2 hours ago, wolfmaid7 said:

Hey Corbon some people have those characterizations based on experiance.It happens and sometimes some get pull into the whole even if its not a true representation of all. I don't think he meant everyone.Its just the way we speak sometimes. 

I know it happens, I also have experience. And I don't think its unfair to point out inaccuracies the way I did.

22 minutes ago, Wall Flower said:

Ok Wolfmaid, I must be crazy but I'll bite again. Are you seriously trying to suggest that Robert was celibate for years on end once he became betrothed to Lyanna - since the only time they appear to have been together to have sex was at Harrenhal?

This is one of the least crazy things insisted...

22 minutes ago, Wall Flower said:

Westeros is not under prohibition, everyone has wine with their food at a feast but that is not the same as drinking someone down in a 'wine cup war'. What Howland observes is Robert drinking his mate under the table while his betrothed is sniffling over another man's song. Where is the interaction of Robert and Lyanna as a couple that might lead to sexy times?

Oh but you are not reading it right! You don't understand any of these things and its only your tremendous bias that causes you to misunderstand whats patently clear to those who have the secret codex to understanding[/s]