Heresy Project X+Y=J: Robert + Lyanna

[nanother]

2. Did I claim there was? No, so why you make this remark, I don't know. We do know that Darry was still present for the night Daenerys presumably was conceived, and that Darry marched with Rhaegar to the Trident, which would have taken about two weeks, since the journey in the opposite directions lasts just as long as that. And we can assume that Aerys would have send Rhaella away as soon as possible, to keep his new heir safe with one of his own (Rhaella) to watch over him.

<snip>

Yes, and in all of those cases, the absence of said person is noticed. That's the thing. If Rhaella left the Red Keep earlier than Jaime believes she did, those people who interacted with her every day (like her maids, and her servants) would have known about it.

And if Rhaella left at a later point in time, those same people will have known about it, because she'd still be in the castle.

That's my point.

First bolded: wasn't that a different Darry? There was a Ser Jonothor Darry in the KG, definitely died at the Trident ... Ser Willem being there is not something I heard before...

 

As for Rhaella leaving, yes, obviously. What I had in mind was Varys spiriting the real Rhaella away and placing a decoy at the same time, just before he was supposed to leave for DS. I don't necessarily believe he did that, as I said I can very well see that woman indeed being Rhaella, but he seems perfectly capable of pulling something like that off if he has a reason to.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

First bolded: wasn't that a different Darry? There was a Ser Jonothor Darry in the KG, definitely died at the Trident ... Ser Willem being there is not something I heard before...

 

As for Rhaella leaving, yes, obviously. What I had in mind was Varys spiriting the real Rhaella away and placing a decoy at the same time, just before he was supposed to leave for DS. I don't necessarily believe he did that, as I said I can very well see that woman indeed being Rhaella, but he seems perfectly capable of pulling something like that off if he has a reason to.

There were Willam (master-at-arms) and Jonothor (KG), yes. Jon stood guard with Jaime when Rhaella was being raped, and Jon left with Rhaegar for the Trident, where both died. Willam left for Dragonstone with Rhaella and Viserys.

 

The scenario you suggest is possible, but it wouldn't make Dany months older than we are told she is, and that seems to be what Wolfmaid is going for.

[Kingmonkey]

 

No its not about Robert's statement. Its about the characterization of Rhaegar compared to Baelor.You are right in saying that Rhaegar did change in order to probably fullfil the idealization of TPTWP.But i'm speaking of Baelor's idea about a woman how they should dress and act.Here is where i believe Rhaegar remained constant and is like Baelor and in flows with what he did to Lyanna at Harrenhal.Which was not about admiration but a form of mockery.

We know literally nothing about Rhaegar's ideas about women. Concluding that he was like Baelor in that respect because when he was a child, his preference to reading over playing lead people to joke that he was Baelor reborn is a huge jump. If, on the other hand, you are saying that Rhaegar had a propensity for locking maidens in towers, I would have to agree.

As to why think of Rhaegar then and there it was a sarcastic thought and  that in itself is an explanation given the surroundings.I don't know why Ned would think of Baelor when Rhaegar suits just fine and his (Rhaegar's) actions is an experiance that Ned shared by having been on the recieving end.

Sarcastic? I don't understand. Are you saying Ned thought Rhaegar WOULD frequent brothels? Sardonic, sure. Why Baelor instead? Because he's the exemplar. If you're randomly referencing someone  for no other reason that to pick out someone diametrically opposite to the person you're thinking of (which you appear to be claiming) you use the exemplar, not an example. For example if a kid is particularly bookish, you might joke that "he is like Baelor the Blessed reborn", rather than "he is like the reincarnation of my uncle Barry's best friend's brother, who was as bookish as Baelor."

To your question about the Crowning the answer is no.Because the Crowning in this story is a separate issue and it has nothing to do with the ritual directly.The Crowning just identifies Lyanna as the goddess figure.It doesn't matter who gives her the Circlet. In real life and a lot of Traditions its the high priest/ess who may be the head of the coven or her father.Its a declaration that says this maiden is a woman and fertile.

The fact that Rhaegar had the pole with Circlet on it again doesn't matter .First because while he matches two other archetypes at the ritual he doesn't match the horned god and as the ritual continues nothing he does indicates that he usuped Robert. He infact follows the arch of the Wicker man closely.

Secondly,Rhaegar couldn't steal Robert's role to crown Lyanna because that wasn't Robert's role he already did what he was suppose to do which was do the sacred marriage indicated by the maypole as already having taken place.Rhaegar's role and his second archetype is that of the chorus the one(s) to recite what happen. Though in life the reteeling of this is done in happiness and hope.Its not done hear for the same reason hence one of the difference.

I'm still finding this very hard to follow. You claim that Robert "already did what he was supposed to do which was the sacred marriage indicated by the maypole," yet the maypole is there in Rhaegar's hands. There is no evidence that Lyanna and Robert interacted at Harrenhal at all. Every part of the ceremony we have any evidence for is enacted by Rhaegar, what makes you think that Robert had already done it?

You don't understand the story hence the reason you would see Robert's death by bore as him failing.No actually.It was his time to set so his son to rise and it was a beautiful imagery presented by George.Robert's having worn green doublet with earth smudged to it symbolizing that the torch had been passed. The horned god is suppose to die and rise again same blood same line.So no i'm sorry it doesn't do anything for RLJ because Robert's end was suppose to happen and it happen by the hand of really no man.The hunt took him out.

"Don't understand the story" as in the mythic symbolism? Hold on there. I know you believe that you have a neo-Pagan hotline to what this stuff is really all about, but lets keep in mind this is a wide assemblage of barely connected symbolism largely syncretised in the 18th and 19th centuries. Even if your interpretation IS the true one, unless you can show that GRRM is following that same interpretation rather than any of the alternative interpretations, or indeed just taking bits and pieces from here and there (which is what he says he does), then that understanding of the story has zero relevance to this discussion.

It seems to me that you're forgetting a rather important point here, which is that Rhaegar and Robert absolutely did switch places. Robert got the throne intended for Rhaegar, Rhaegar got the woman intended for Robert. Robert makes this very point several times, and regrets the exchange.

Robert stole Rhaegar's throne at the Trident. Rhaegar stole Robert's woman at Harrenhal. 

This is all very compatible with the notion that Rhaegar supplanted Robert's position in the ritual -- which is exactly what appears to happen in what we have seen of the Tourney at Harrenhal.

Robert's boar hunt is an attempt to revert to type. He hates being the king. He wants to be the horned hunter, he wants to be Gwyn ap Nudd. Rhaegar's taken that from him though, so the hunt fails. 

Yes he would at the point in time of seeing Tywin lay dead children at Robert's feet.But i think you are missing the point i made.The Lannisters as i said just happened to be that face anyone with ambition for a daughter/neice/grandaughter would be a threat.A legitimized bastard would be Robert's heir and no woman married to Robert might take kindly to having her kids play second fiddle to a bastard.Hell even the Faith might have something to say about that.

This is your claim, but I showed two quotes detailing Ned's thoughts on the matter, and Ned did not think this way. It's Ned's thoughts that are relevant. It doesn't make sense to base a claim on an assumption about Ned's thoughts that we know to be incorrect.

Kingmonkey noooo Stannis wouldn't have known anything of a sort how? People would have told them that?Everything we hear is given to us second hand and its not much.Plus as i said Dany could still have been brought from somewhere else to Dragonstone and all else hold true. But the fact is we hear nothing about Rhaella and we certainly can't vouch for here being pregant at all because that's all hearsay.

Well of course people would have told him. Do you think he didn't ask after Rhaella and the kids after arriving at Dragonstone? Do you think he wouldn't have asked to see Rhaella's body, to confirm the story? Do you think he'd have just plucked the story that Rhaella's two children were spirited away at the last moment out of the air?

If Rhaella wasn't pregnant, why does everyone think she had a child? Why does everyone think that Dany was born on Dragonstone if she wasn't? 

ALL the evidence we have says this is what happen. Does that make it 100% certain? No. But it's still all the evidence. There is no evidence whatsoever that something different happened. So why on earth would you assume that something different happened?

Kingmonkey seriously though if that is all GRRM wanted to us to come away with he would have never took the time to describe Rhaella's garb.Jamie saw Rhaella clombing into the Royal wheelhouse and that would have been the end of it.But no he placed an element in meant to have us question if it was her.

So you're saying it wasn't Melisandre with Stannis at the meeting with Cat & Renly, either? Otherwise why would he have taken the time to describe her hooded garb? Are we meant to question who that was?

Cersie when she dressed up all hooded and passed of as a peasent girl or was it a wench to see Jamie.Jon snow having the NW members raise their hood so their face could be seen by the wildlings and this is just a couple.These are done so no one could see who is beneath.

Yes, they want to hide their faces. Which is what Rhaella would want to do too, if she was wandering around with a black eye or two.

And also a Hood and cloak is over kill for hiding bruises on her arms and thighs her medieval dress would be quite suffice. King monkey it wasn't her.

Maybe she had some bruises on her face too. Maybe she was just horribly ashamed by the whole thing. If you're going to claim it can't be Rhaella because of the hood, then apply the same standard elsewhere. Nobody in a hood can be the person they are supposed to be. Melisandre wasn't really Melisandre. 

Or, not.

Everyone believes she was born on Dragonstone because that is what they were led to believe.Were they all there? 

No, only some of them. Again, every single source gives this story. Not one single source gives a different story. Why believe the option with zero evidence rather than the option with very strong but inconclusive evidence? It just doesn't make sense.

[wolfmaid7]

Oops. I did miss a crucial word or two in that quote on re-read 

OK, my bad there, apologies.

However, I maintain that the argument before (including the paragraph I quoted) did more to distract from that conclusion than to lead to it (as far as I'm concerned). So I'm not at all surprised that people not actively trying to agree with you don't get past those 'wtf' bits. I made the effort, because I'm going several extra miles to compensate for any RLJ bias I might have.

Hence the reason for the "hold that thought,or i'll come back to that" all transisions to the point.That it was simple as two people getting caught up in the moment.An Nanother the paragraph in question taken out of its context changes it.That isn't my fault maybe it is bias just to do snippets without context something i fear happens a lot here.

The Knight of the Laughing Tree as a reference to Robert seems rather obscure - how would a reader arrive at that conclusion? The only statement about Robert by Lyanna that the author gives us is her expressing doubts about his fidelity on the very evening of her betrothal. Why would we assume that she changed her mind, when there doesn't seem to be any hint of that in the text?  Meera's KOLT story doesn't show them interacting as a couple - Lyanna is sniffling over Rhaegar's song, while Robert is engaged in a drinking contest with another man and then boasts about unmasking the KOLT (oblivious to the fact that it is Lyanna herself). Where is the author showing any closeness between them?

Isn't there a contradiction in your argument that Lyanna came to love Robert enough to give way to her passions but didn't trust her own betrothed enough to send word that she was pregnant. Would she really think it was better for her child to be unquestionably a bastard (and an unacknowledged one at that) rather than a child born a little too soon after the marriage?  When Lysa Arryn became pregnant out of wedlock, she seems to have hoped that her father would allow her to marry Littlefinger, while Ashara went home to her family and even old Barristan is aware of her 'dishonour' at Harrenhall and her pregnancy. Surely, Lyanna is in a much stronger position than either Lysa or Ashara if she is pregnant to her approved betrothed? Yet, you're arguing that Lyanna is the one who ran off in a blind panic.

As I said previously, I think that you're missing the irony of Robert saying that 'no woman wants Baelor the Blessed in her bed'. We know for sure that Cersei wanted Rhaegar in her bed, why not Lyanna?

So with the cloaked woman not being Rhaella, you're trying to cast doubt on Dany's date of birth to get round the author saying that she is 8-9 months younger that Jon? So what do you think happened to Rhaella and who's Dany? 

In any case, Dany's date of birth is only one pointer to Jon Snow's age. Why do people in Winterfell accept him as the same age as Robb? Why does no-one notice that he is actually up to a year older as he would have to be if conceived at Harrenhall? Cat mentions Jon still having a wetnurse when she arrived in Winterfell. If she noticed the wetnurse, why did she not notice Jon being older than Robb (rather than younger as she clearly think him to be)?

Where does Ned say that there were fresh roses at the TOJ?  He says that the room smelled of blood and roses but the only roses that are specifically mentioned are the ones that fall dead and black from Lyanna's hands. Most people interpret this as being the dried remnants of the Harrenhall crown, given to Lyanna by Rhaegar. In any case, the TOJ isn't in the desert - why can't there be roses there? 

 

Didn't say that TKOTLT was a reference to Robert i said the coat of arms on the shield is a joining of what was most loved about Robert to her love of Winterfell.Just as Jon suggested that she wed Tully to Stark on her arms.

Why should we assume that she changed her mind about his fidelity? Well as i said Lyanna and Robert had time on their side.Time in which Robert could mess up are we in agreement there? 

Ummm... the quote I used was what you put in your post. I was quoting you.

If what you said was not what you meant, then that's on you, not on me.

 

Again with the insults.

These kinds of comments don't help your arguments.

 

My "insult" have nothing to do with the arguements directly so again if you want to use that as a distraction go ahead.I never said the quote wasn't mine i said it was and i quote " a reply to Ygrain about some hypothethical situation in real life." I also said " i have no idea how it came to that because i wasn't asserting that Lyanna decided to sleep with Robert.

My problem with you is that i said this 6 times now 7 and you are still choosing to state this over and over.So what else do you want me to believe but that this is some tactic to distort what i said as if it is fact? Something should have clicked for you in the context because the context is wayyyyy different than what you propose.But that wouldn't have happened if you and a few others hear didn't take the paragraph "out of the greater whole."

Will have to agree to disagree on Lyanna running away - I think it's extremely unlikely. However, I don't think I've come across any theory that satisfactorily explains Lyanna's disappearance, so I'm not going to hold it against yours.

I'm also fairly sure that Rheagar was involved in some way - if not kidnapping then something else. Someone from the royal family certainly is: the three KG tied to Lya's fate via Ned's dream AND they're away from the royal family they were supposed to protect - don't think you can get around that any other way than assuming that either Aerys or Rhaegar commanded them to be there (with Rhaegar being more likely). If not for Lyanna herself, then for some other plot that Lya got caught up in (something to do with Ashara?)

We've seen a number of examples of people being smuggled in/out of the RK, or hiding in the RK, most of the time thanks to Varys's knowledge of the secret tunnels. No doubt he was already making use of those back then, and no doubt he was already making plots involving the Targaryen kids (he does claim tho have smuggled Aegon out). So, while I'd also be fine with the hooded-cloaked woman being Rhaella, I can very well believe that he was involving Rhaella in one such plot; although ATM I have a hard time seeing how that could work to make Dany older than she is.

If we want to assume that Jon was conceived at Harrenhal, then he's at least 9 months older than he's thought to be, probably closer to a year, or more, dunno exactly. So if we want to age up Dany to keep the age distance, she can't possibly be Rhaella's child - she'd have to have been born around, or before the supposed 'flight to Dragonstone'. If we still want her to be a Targaryen, then she'd have to be Aerys or Rhaegar's bastard, the mother maybe Ashara? Anyhow, from this point on, I don't see how 'Rhaella' not being Rhaella would matter in any of this. As long as Dany is not hers and was born before the 'flight', it doesn't seem to matter WRT Dany's age. Unless I'm missing something obvious?

I was thinking along these lines ... I said it earlier that I get the impression that this 'spring ritual' went wrong ... maybe Rhaegar tried to usurp the role of the Horned God (who's the Usurper now?). For most of his life he posed as this saviour figure, tPtwP, arguably a Sun figure, even though in the end he decided it wasn't him after all.. He went against his own nature to become a warrior so that he can match the archetype. There's nothing to say he wouldn't try to pose as the 'Horned God' figure as well. He might have decided that as this mighty 'sun warrior', he was the prefect partner for the 'goddess' in a spring ritual. And booooom, he screws it up, and winter returns. Dunno, it's probably utter crackpot. I'm really out of my depth with this stuff.

I agree with you that someone apart of the Royal family could be responsible. I peg Aerys for that.I disagree with you un the likelihood that Lyanna ran or way and was aided in that. The behavior of Ned and the others really is a kicker for this.

You are right the whole point in bringing up Jamie's recollection is to show that we can't assert that 

1. Rhaella was preggers and Dany is hers if the entire evidence is based on a figure Jamie assumed was the Queen.

Therefore,she is likely someone else's which is what i posted to you before. I said i think she is Rhaegar's child.

 

Ok back to the ritual what you and Kingmonkey are saying makes no sense this an author's connection thus Rhaegar and Robert aren't trying to match an archetype.They aren't trying recreate the grand rite or any ritual at Spring.So nothing is going wrong because no one is trying to usurp anyone .They are just living their lives and it happens to match the Beltane festival because that is what the author did.Not because the characters had some knowledge of this and were actively taking part in making this happen.

I think you are mixing several stories here. Baelor locked Daena (not Daenys) in the Maidenvault, and she escaped, yes. We know that, at least on one of the three occasions, she had help.

Daena's escapes would have lasted only a short period of time - she always returned to the Maidenvault. Rhaella sneaking off would hav ebeen for a period of nine months. Kind of difficult to have that go unnoticed.

What does Rhaella dressing up as a septa have got to do with anything?

 

1. Proud women (like royalties) are usually not that fond of showing injuries their husbands gave them to the whole wide world. Same thing applies for Rhaella.

2. Did I claim there was? No, so why you make this remark, I don't know. We do know that Darry was still present for the night Daenerys presumably was conceived, and that Darry marched with Rhaegar to the Trident, which would have taken about two weeks, since the journey in the opposite directions lasts just as long as that. And we can assume that Aerys would have send Rhaella away as soon as possible, to keep his new heir safe with one of his own (Rhaella) to watch over him.

Since you say "Rhaella", are you claiming that the woman raped by Aerys the night Chelsted was burned was not Rhaella either?
 

Is that not the trope? And besides, we have seen a girl running away from an unwanted marriage. Alys Karstark.

1. Who Rhaegar first married doesn't matter in regards to what Lyanna's station of birth is. She's one of the highest born girls in the realm, and girls of her station (and even of a lower station), have been known to be highborn enough to marry a prince or crown prince. Seems to me that their birth is of similar enough station.

2. And you very well know why Aerys said just that. Had Aerys not been jealous of Tywin, Cersei would have very much been on the table as a marriage candidate..

3. Your first sentence shows us clearly how highly these people all see themselves. Which kind of agrees with my point, but ok. Your second sentence makes no sense. 

Rhaegar referring to Jaime as a crutch doesn't mean a thing in regards to his station of birth. Jaime was a hostage, no matter which way you turn it, and Aerys was extremely paranoid. Rhaegar did not dare take his father's hostage with him, as Aerys would not want such a thing. Having Jaime as a hostage in the Red Keep was one of the few things making Aerys feel any bit secure. Hence, the use of the word crutch.

 

If Dany was not born on Dragonstone, where does Westeros get its info from? Somehow, the information spread from Dragonstone. And that would be the people who witnessed Rhaella give birth. Who saw their Queen Dowager pregnant for nine months, with their new King newly crowned (which would have been done in front of those present at Dragonstone).

 

Yes, and in all of those cases, the absence of said person is noticed. That's the thing. If Rhaella left the Red Keep earlier than Jaime believes she did, those people who interacted with her every day (like her maids, and her servants) would have known about it.

And if Rhaella left at a later point in time, those same people will have known about it, because she'd still be in the castle.

That's my point.

Rhaenys i think you are missing the points i'm making.

1.It doesn't matter why and how long Daena was missing .

a. The point is people use concealment for the preservation of themselves and others all the time.Its human nature and a theme in this story and important theme.

Rhaella dressing up as a Septon has to do with point (a)Its not a moral or social conundrum its preservation.

2. The clothes,regular clothes worn by women of the time are sufficient enough to hide any bruises.The cloak and hood was for hiding who got into the wheelhouse.From a literal and thematic standpoint in this story it fits with the others that did it for that reason.

3. Do we know that it was Rhaella that Jamie heard or did he assume it was her because it was her room?

4. Yeah we have seen a girl running away from and unwanted marriage but nothing in Lyanna's statement said she didn't want the marriage to Robert.We have seen in the case of Alys,Sansa,Dany and according to Barbrey Brandon all verbalizing not wanting marriages that were made for them. Nothing of a sorts came from Lyanna.

5. Yes it does matter Rhaegar's first marriage because it goes to the point Grrm is making.He a prince married a princes he didn't marry a lord's daughter.There is a separation there ,the Lords serve royalty they are servants to the Crown.I'm saying that that there is hierarchy involved that's the point and the royals are at the top of the pyramid.

6. Rhaegar's statement to Jamie reveal the way even Rhaegar had a sense of status and his place with respect to Jamie.This is about perception.

7.Where does westeros get the info that Dany was born on DS.It is an assumption based on her having been there.Her having been there is not prof that she was born there. As i said before the term babe in this story has been shown to speak of a child from a few months to 4yrs.So when Stannis arrived and he heard Darry took off with Viserys and the babe no one would take it upon themselves to even ask "by the way was the babe newborn or what?

We have accounts very ambiguous and sometimes illogical told to us by Dany whose info came from Viserys.

8. No actually in all those cases it wasn't realized they were missing.No one knew it was Cersie we knew because she told us in her POV.Nobody knew who was under the hooded cloaks of the NW men because Jon says their faces were hooded for the ver fact that they would remain a mysterious and intimidating.

9.I don't believe she left later that's why i didn't say it.

There were Willam (master-at-arms) and Jonothor (KG), yes. Jon stood guard with Jaime when Rhaella was being raped, and Jon left with Rhaegar for the Trident, where both died. Willam left for Dragonstone with Rhaella and Viserys.

 

The scenario you suggest is possible, but it wouldn't make Dany months older than we are told she is, and that seems to be what Wolfmaid is going for.

Its actually not because if as i say Rhaella left earlier who is to say she was pregnant? We assume that but we don't know that.

We know literally nothing about Rhaegar's ideas about women. Concluding that he was like Baelor in that respect because when he was a child, his preference to reading over playing lead people to joke that he was Baelor reborn is a huge jump. If, on the other hand, you are saying that Rhaegar had a propensity for locking maidens in towers, I would have to agree.

Sarcastic? I don't understand. Are you saying Ned thought Rhaegar WOULD frequent brothels? Sardonic, sure. Why Baelor instead? Because he's the exemplar. If you're randomly referencing someone  for no other reason that to pick out someone diametrically opposite to the person you're thinking of (which you appear to be claiming) you use the exemplar, not an example. For example if a kid is particularly bookish, you might joke that "he is like Baelor the Blessed reborn", rather than "he is like the reincarnation of my uncle Barry's best friend's brother, who was as bookish as Baelor."

I'm still finding this very hard to follow. You claim that Robert "already did what he was supposed to do which was the sacred marriage indicated by the maypole," yet the maypole is there in Rhaegar's hands. There is no evidence that Lyanna and Robert interacted at Harrenhal at all. Every part of the ceremony we have any evidence for is enacted by Rhaegar, what makes you think that Robert had already done it?

"Don't understand the story" as in the mythic symbolism? Hold on there. I know you believe that you have a neo-Pagan hotline to what this stuff is really all about, but lets keep in mind this is a wide assemblage of barely connected symbolism largely syncretised in the 18th and 19th centuries. Even if your interpretation IS the true one, unless you can show that GRRM is following that same interpretation rather than any of the alternative interpretations, or indeed just taking bits and pieces from here and there (which is what he says he does), then that understanding of the story has zero relevance to this discussion.

It seems to me that you're forgetting a rather important point here, which is that Rhaegar and Robert absolutely did switch places. Robert got the throne intended for Rhaegar, Rhaegar got the woman intended for Robert. Robert makes this very point several times, and regrets the exchange.

Robert stole Rhaegar's throne at the Trident. Rhaegar stole Robert's woman at Harrenhal. 

This is all very compatible with the notion that Rhaegar supplanted Robert's position in the ritual -- which is exactly what appears to happen in what we have seen of the Tourney at Harrenhal.

Robert's boar hunt is an attempt to revert to type. He hates being the king. He wants to be the horned hunter, he wants to be Gwyn ap Nudd. Rhaegar's taken that from him though, so the hunt fails. 

This is your claim, but I showed two quotes detailing Ned's thoughts on the matter, and Ned did not think this way. It's Ned's thoughts that are relevant. It doesn't make sense to base a claim on an assumption about Ned's thoughts that we know to be incorrect.

Well of course people would have told him. Do you think he didn't ask after Rhaella and the kids after arriving at Dragonstone? Do you think he wouldn't have asked to see Rhaella's body, to confirm the story? Do you think he'd have just plucked the story that Rhaella's two children were spirited away at the last moment out of the air?

If Rhaella wasn't pregnant, why does everyone think she had a child? Why does everyone think that Dany was born on Dragonstone if she wasn't? 

ALL the evidence we have says this is what happen. Does that make it 100% certain? No. But it's still all the evidence. There is no evidence whatsoever that something different happened. So why on earth would you assume that something different happened?

So you're saying it wasn't Melisandre with Stannis at the meeting with Cat & Renly, either? Otherwise why would he have taken the time to describe her hooded garb? Are we meant to question who that was?

Yes, they want to hide their faces. Which is what Rhaella would want to do too, if she was wandering around with a black eye or two.

Maybe she had some bruises on her face too. Maybe she was just horribly ashamed by the whole thing. If you're going to claim it can't be Rhaella because of the hood, then apply the same standard elsewhere. Nobody in a hood can be the person they are supposed to be. Melisandre wasn't really Melisandre. 

Or, not.

No, only some of them. Again, every single source gives this story. Not one single source gives a different story. Why believe the option with zero evidence rather than the option with very strong but inconclusive evidence? It just doesn't make sense.

I don't think its a huge jump at all thinking what the jokes were about had to do with him and women. There is a separation between his intelligence and what his father's knights joked about.

Kingmonkey you are still caught up on thinking that because the maypole was in Rhaegar's hand that it means that he was the one that was apart of the sacred marriage....It doesn't. He is just the chorus the one telling what happened.But unlike it being a joyous occassion in real it brings anger.

Even when you try to superimpose the ritual on the story he doesn't match up and you are trying to force Rhaegar to fit a mold he doesn't fit.Robert's boar hunt is the vehicle by which the horned god dies which is what he's suppose to do.Its not a failure it is making way for the next incarnation.That Robert went out by a Boar is actually pretty sweet because it was a horned animal that did him in directly.Something of the forest where he belongs.And your point about him not wanting to be King is spot on but translate the myth which was he better at? Everything that set him apart and stamps that archetype on him.A horned God.So you assuming that the symbolism is Rhaegar usurping Robert as horned god because he had the maypole "in his hand." is theproblem and a desparate attempt to have him fit.He has an archetype and he fits as the one telling what was done.But it wasn't done for praise or hope or jubilee.

Erm if the symbolism weren't there to be recognized then i wouldn't have recognized them.That's how i know what symbolism he's using.That's sense Kingmonkey no different than the several other people on this forum including you that he is following X and Y. I'm simply saying that i recognize the ritual and the elements.If it wasn't there i wouldn't have seen them. 

Kingmonkey i disagree  because of the tone in context It was said sarcastically and matter of fact that alone is a dead give away that it meant nothing more than that.And its easy to see why he would think that if he was speaking about men in general as he know them to be  and Rhaegar didn't seem to jive with that.And we see that foundation laid with what his father's knights thought.Now this being something that was said of him as a child or teenager doesn't mean that idea about him didn't follow into his adulthood.

Kingmonkey does the text give a time specific of Stannis's arrival on DS in relation to when Darry left? So no i don't thin that Stannis would have been asking to see any body. And as i said a few times now "babe" is a very expansive term in this story.Dany could have been 1 year and considered a babe.And i don't think Stannis would be asking any specifics about how old the child was.By the way i said i believe that Dany is Rhaegar's so i don't think Rhaella is the mother.

We know Melissandre was under the hood because everyone who saw her hooded was looking at her and talking i.e Davos and Jon. Secondly, come on now Kingmonkey give me s situation where Melissandre was fleeing from somewhere whereby concealment was even called for. You pulling my legs with that one are you

Why would Rhaella have a black eye? There is no reportsof Aery's beating Rhaella only that he liked rough sex when he burnt a man. Can you supply a text that he beat up the Queen?

Every source gives the story based on the belief that Rhaella went to Dragonstone with Viserys and there was a babe there so that had to be Rhaella's.That's it.

 

[nanother]

Hence the reason for the "hold that thought,or i'll come back to that" all transisions to the point.That it was simple as two people getting caught up in the moment.An Nanother the paragraph in question taken out of its context changes it.That isn't my fault maybe it is bias just to do snippets without context something i fear happens a lot here.

No. Please. You wrote what you wrote, regardless of what you meant, and even with context it's almost impossible not to 'misunderstand'. Own up to it and stop blaming everyone else of bias.

 

 “Robert will never keep to one bed,” It’s something that got overlooked the moment Lya uttered those famous words,and it got turned into she didn’t love Robert or want to marry him none of which is even hinted at. From her statement comes the realization, think about it now  that Lyanna knew she would have to and was willing to sleep with Robert from the get go (1)…..Say wuh Wolfmaidare you serious?(2) Keep in mind that Robert has been sexually active for a while and Lyanna knows that, do you think having that info she expected Robert to go without until they got married?Think about the little smile he gave Ned as well. Seriously! Did Robert abstain from sex after their betrothal, OR was he in fact “keeping to one bed-“Lya’s and he didn't have to abstain.(3) From her conversation with Ned she was already putting that on the table. Robert could only keep to one bed if Lyanna was offering hers up for him.Not at some "appropriate time" set by others, look at what Ned tells her in the context of her statement and the entire conversation:

So was there stipulation by Lyanna as to  when Robert would be keeping to one bed? No,which is part of the point sex would occur when it occurs whether they were married or just bethored .Additionally, Robert having a child before wouldn't be a big deal to Lyanna if she had no feelings for him(4).How many women have become step mothers to children of Lords in Westeros and have no gripe. Robert having a child with "some girl" affected her a bit more than it should.Lyanna was a tad jealous he had been with some girl and knocked her up.A little territorial are we?

<snip>

So,knowing Robert's appetite as Lyanna did,what are the odds that during the entire betrothal Robert never made "the move?"(5) He had sex with a 15yr old prostitute and got her preggers and he was an out of shape grown ass man at that time.Robert wasn't going to suffer from blue balls and Lyanna already knew ,accepted and was willing when it came to married or not that was part of the deal.Therefore,what do we think would happen given the variables of a willing girl and a virile male?

1. You suggest here that Lya was willing to sleep with Robert - regardless of any feelings, because she 'had to'

2. You knew full well you're making a provocative statement, so why act offended that people did get provoked?

3. You pose a (false, but nevermind) dichotomy - did Robert abstain, or did he keep to Lya's bed? And you make it very clear you don't think he abstained. So what are we supposed to think you're suggesting here? Bear in mind that Harrenhal was a loooong way into their betrothal (probably around 2 years at least?), so if that's when they first had sex then Robert either did abstain or didn't keep to any one bed up until then.

Reading on, we get some hints that it might not be the full picture,

4. you make an attempt to show Lya had some feelings for Robert

5. you allow for the 'move' to happen at a later point in their relationship,

but none of this counters the notion of Lya sleeping with Robert to make him keep to her bed. Your summary (that I missed/misread earlier) doesn't say anything about that either - only that they ended up loving each other, not that love came before the sex. I'm sure there are further clues in even wider context, but frankly, it's not the reader's job to hunt for clues as to how your argument might make sense after all, it's yours to write it in a way where it's easy to see.

Don't get me wrong, you made some good arguments, that really made me want to re-think Bob&Lya's relationship. This is just not one of them.

 

Re: Rhaella: there's no way Dany can be Rhaella's if she has to be sufficiently older to match Jon's age - Jon's aged up probably by close to a year, definitely at least 9 months, so Rhaella should have given birth while still supposedly in KL. So it's either Rhaella carrying a pregnancy to term without anyone noticing, or someone successfully posing as Rhaella for months, in the KL court where she was well known ... nope, I'm not buying either.

I can see the hooded-cloaked woman not being Rhaella, but I don't see that making a difference in terms of Dany being older. I can also see her indeed being Rhaella - frankly, hodded cloaks are pretty much what people wear for travelling. The raised hood is suspicious for sure, but can very well be just because of physical/emotional discomfort.

 

The Beltane thing: right, I was mixing up factual an metaphorical there. Methaphorically, we have a Horned God, a Floral/Winter Goddess, someone who maybe ought to be Wicker Man, but is also a Sun Warrior in their own in-world myth system. And a Spring ritual followed by the return of Winter, a War, the death of the Goddess (or is that supposed to happen?). Makes me think, something went wrong. Factually, yes people just lived their lives, however

1. that doesn't mean they didn't unknowingly enacted their magical roles (maybe not a perfect example, but think Jon stealing Ygritte, even though he never meant to).

2. for Rhaegar, myths, magic, and maybe rituals were everyday life. He was playing at being this propehsized warrior, denying his nature as the bookish boy. He was working on the three-headed dragon, whatever that means. He seems to have kept an eye out for signs and portents,  see how he decided Aegon had to be tPtwP after all; so he might very well have recognised Lyanna as his intended mythical/magical counterpart.

As I said, I'm far from confident on this, but I'm filing the notion away until I gain a better understanding of the matter.

 

[wolfmaid7]

No. Please. You wrote what you wrote, regardless of what you meant, and even with context it's almost impossible not to 'misunderstand'. Own up to it and stop blaming everyone else of bias.

1. You suggest here that Lya was willing to sleep with Robert - regardless of any feelings, because she 'had to'

2. You knew full well you're making a provocative statement, so why act offended that people did get provoked?

3. You pose a (false, but nevermind) dichotomy - did Robert abstain, or did he keep to Lya's bed? And you make it very clear you don't think he abstained. So what are we supposed to think you're suggesting here? Bear in mind that Harrenhal was a loooong way into their betrothal (probably around 2 years at least?), so if that's when they first had sex then Robert either did abstain or didn't keep to any one bed up until then.

Reading on, we get some hints that it might not be the full picture,

4. you make an attempt to show Lya had some feelings for Robert

5. you allow for the 'move' to happen at a later point in their relationship,

but none of this counters the notion of Lya sleeping with Robert to make him keep to her bed. Your summary (that I missed/misread earlier) doesn't say anything about that either - only that they ended up loving each other, not that love came before the sex. I'm sure there are further clues in even wider context, but frankly, it's not the reader's job to hunt for clues as to how your argument might make sense after all, it's yours to write it in a way where it's easy to see.

Don't get me wrong, you made some good arguments, that really made me want to re-think Bob&Lya's relationship. This is just not one of them.

 

Re: Rhaella: there's no way Dany can be Rhaella's if she has to be sufficiently older to match Jon's age - Jon's aged up probably by close to a year, definitely at least 9 months, so Rhaella should have given birth while still supposedly in KL. So it's either Rhaella carrying a pregnancy to term without anyone noticing, or someone successfully posing as Rhaella for months, in the KL court where she was well known ... nope, I'm not buying either.

I can see the hooded-cloaked woman not being Rhaella, but I don't see that making a difference in terms of Dany being older. I can also see her indeed being Rhaella - frankly, hodded cloaks are pretty much what people wear for travelling. The raised hood is suspicious for sure, but can very well be just because of physical/emotional discomfort.

 

The Beltane thing: right, I was mixing up factual an metaphorical there. Methaphorically, we have a Horned God, a Floral/Winter Goddess, someone who maybe ought to be Wicker Man, but is also a Sun Warrior in their own in-world myth system. And a Spring ritual followed by the return of Winter, a War, the death of the Goddess (or is that supposed to happen?). Makes me think, something went wrong. Factually, yes people just lived their lives, however

1. that doesn't mean they didn't unknowingly enacted their magical roles (maybe not a perfect example, but think Jon stealing Ygritte, even though he never meant to).

2. for Rhaegar, myths, magic, and maybe rituals were everyday life. He was playing at being this propehsized warrior, denying his nature as the bookish boy. He was working on the three-headed dragon, whatever that means. He seems to have kept an eye out for signs and portents,  see how he decided Aegon had to be tPtwP after all; so he might very well have recognised Lyanna as his intended mythical/magical counterpart.

As I said, I'm far from confident on this, but I'm filing the notion away until I gain a better understanding of the matter.

 

So i'm looking at my section,the entire section of "the clues to intimacy" again and i have to disagree with you. Its nothing to own up to or not it's what people chose to pick out. If others could read it and follow the flow and you and a few people can't then you can't and you took something else away. For instance the line about Lyanna being territorial is proceeded by she wouldn't or shouldn't have a problem with Robert fathering a bastard with "some girl" if she didn't have feelings for him. It urked her and in the vein of that same thinking. Let's switch it to a hypothethical situation with Rhaegar who had kids not by "some girl" but his wife and somehow you all don't see a disconnect with that?

Not that i can't see how you and some could have read it i understand that's why when Ygrain asked for clarification i told her it doesn't mean Robert was banging Lyanna presently it just means he grew to love her and when the right moment happened and i stold her specifically "Harrenhall." it happened it was intended to show a process beginning with the fact that they had history they knew each other and weren't strangers.

The point i made in the essay is that Lyanna already had feelings for Robert that's why she was upset about "some girl in the Vale"That's also why all the quotes came before so we could see such thing like behaviors etc.

But that's not my issue Nanother and its not the thing that's upseting me because when i clarified it with you that was the end of it we could move on from that.That's not what's provoking me,what's provoking me is that i told Ned's little girl 7 times now this is what it meant and why.......But she is still repeating something else......So you tell me wouldn't that urk you a bit?

So what's her intent behind going back to what she thought over and over if it was clarified? Are you doing that? 

Now to the Rhaella question i said to you now twice that i don't think she is Rhaella's daughter.I think she is Rhaegar's and definitely not by his mother.Let me ask you something what does Rhaella look like? Has anyone described her has the author? 

Aerys has had Rhaella more or less on lockdown for years since he believed she was cheating that's why she was having so much miscarriages.So what does the Aerys do have two Septons sleep with her .Viserys was kept away from Rhaella because Aerys even suspected the Queen of trying to harm him. He stayed with or had Viserys with him always.But then we have something strange at Harrenhall Barristan states the queen was not present but back at KL with Viserys.

Nothing is heard of her until Jamie mentions seeing her get into the Royal wheelhouse,which again he didn't see anything.

So overall it does make a difference because you can't say Rhaella was ever pregnant when ever she left KL.

 

I'll come back to the Beltane thing in a bit...got to run

 

[Kingmonkey]

On 17/01/2016 at 6:57 AM, wolfmaid7 said:

I don't think its a huge jump at all thinking what the jokes were about had to do with him and women. There is a separation between his intelligence and what his father's knights joked about.

He was a child at the time, I'm pretty sure it wasn't about his attitude to women.

On 17/01/2016 at 6:57 AM, wolfmaid7 said:

Kingmonkey you are still caught up on thinking that because the maypole was in Rhaegar's hand that it means that he was the one that was apart of the sacred marriage....It doesn't. He is just the chorus the one telling what happened.

I know you think it doesn't, what I don't get is WHY you think it doesn't. We see all the trappings of the sacred marriage associated with Rhaegar, and none of the trappings of the sacred marriage associated with Robert. So why do you assume the sacred marriage was with Robert, not Rhaegar?

On 17/01/2016 at 6:57 AM, wolfmaid7 said:

Erm if the symbolism weren't there to be recognized then i wouldn't have recognized them.That's how i know what symbolism he's using.That's sense Kingmonkey no different than the several other people on this forum including you that he is following X and Y. I'm simply saying that i recognize the ritual and the elements.If it wasn't there i wouldn't have seen them. 

 

The point you're missing is that the SAME symbolism is used in countless variant rituals, and has many different interpretations. When you insist that it means a particular thing, you are basing that on one particular interpretation of those symbols, without evidence that this is the interpretation that GRRM was using. Or indeed that GRRM would stick to one specific interpretation rather than picking and chosing bits here and there from different rituals and myths as he felt it suited his story, rather than adopting one particular thing wholesale.

On 17/01/2016 at 6:57 AM, wolfmaid7 said:

And we see that foundation laid with what his father's knights thought.Now this being something that was said of him as a child or teenager doesn't mean that idea about him didn't follow into his adulthood.

 

We know that it was said in an entirely different context. We also know that they "would jest sourly" about Rhaegar's bookishness "Until one day Prince Rhaegar found something in his scrolls that changed him." That suggests that the idea didn't follow him into his adulthood, because the jesting was until that time. It also tells us that the jesting was about his lack of interest in martial matters.

On 17/01/2016 at 6:57 AM, wolfmaid7 said:

Kingmonkey does the text give a time specific of Stannis's arrival on DS in relation to when Darry left? So no i don't thin that Stannis would have been asking to see any body. And as i said a few times now "babe" is a very expansive term in this story.Dany could have been 1 year and considered a babe.And i don't think Stannis would be asking any specifics about how old the child was.By the way i said i believe that Dany is Rhaegar's so i don't think Rhaella is the mother.

Soon enough after for it to have been considered that they had escaped him. Your 1 year-old babe thing still doesn't explain why everyone believes that she was born on Dragonstone. Ned gives her age as matching what it would be if she was born on Dragonstone as claimed, Alleras has a conversation about her specifically mentioning her being born on Dragonstone as claimed, and she's named Stormborn which also fits. 

So we're back to this. All the evidence I know points to Dany being born on Dragonstone shortly before Stannis' arrival there. What I'm still looking for is what evidence you have to the contrary. Not "could have"s. I'm happy to concede the possibility that everyone is wrong, what I still don't understand is WHY you think everyone is wrong. Just because something cannot be excluded as a possibility doesn't make it likely.

On 17/01/2016 at 6:57 AM, wolfmaid7 said:

We know Melissandre was under the hood because everyone who saw her hooded was looking at her and talking i.e Davos and Jon. Secondly, come on now Kingmonkey give me s situation where Melissandre was fleeing from somewhere whereby concealment was even called for. You pulling my legs with that one are you

I gave a specific example of the meeting between Cat, Stannis and Renly, where Melisandre is hooded, and is not known to the PoV character. Why did GRRM choose to have her hooded in that scene? You're proposing that hoods are indicative of people being someone other than who they appear to be, yet that surely does not apply in this situation. Therefore it's not a rule, and can equally not apply in the Rhaella case either.

On 17/01/2016 at 6:57 AM, wolfmaid7 said:

Why would Rhaella have a black eye? There is no reportsof Aery's beating Rhaella only that he liked rough sex when he burnt a man. Can you supply a text that he beat up the Queen?

We don't know the extent of her injuries, so it's a possibility. I gave other possibilities too.

On 17/01/2016 at 6:57 AM, wolfmaid7 said:

Every source gives the story based on the belief that Rhaella went to Dragonstone with Viserys and there was a babe there so that had to be Rhaella's.That's it.

Yes, but all you're saying here is that it isn't rock-solid. I don't have a problem with that. What I'm having difficulty with is not that it can be doubted, but WHY you doubt it. All the evidence, imperfect as it may be, points one way. Nothing points the other way. The mere fact that the evidence isn't conclusive doesn't in itself point the other way, so what's the reason for looking the other way?

[nanother]

Wolfmaid, sorry, I had trouble posting for some days, took time before it started bothering me enough to do something about it  (all I had to do is clear cache, in the unlikely case someone is still having this problem). Will answer your post later.

 

On 1/16/2016 at 0:04 AM, Rhaenys_Targaryen said:

We do know that Darry was still present for the night Daenerys presumably was conceived, and that Darry marched with Rhaegar to the Trident, which would have taken about two weeks, since the journey in the opposite directions lasts just as long as that. And we can assume that Aerys would have send Rhaella away as soon as possible, to keep his new heir safe with one of his own (Rhaella) to watch over him.

 

I have to get back to this. I got confused between the two Darrys first time 'round, now I'm confused for another reason. Dany's conception is supposed to be on the same day (well, night) Aerys burned Chelstead. As Jaime tells it, sounds like he appointed Rossart right away (although he doesn't outright say so, so there's some wiggle room):

Quote

“Everything was done in the utmost secrecy by a handful of master pyromancers. They did not 
even trust their own acolytes to help. The queen’s eyes had been closed for years, and Rhaegar was busy 
marshaling an army. But Aerys’s new mace-and-dagger Hand was not utterly stupid, and with Rossart, 
Belis, and Garigus coming and going night and day, he became suspicious. Chelsted, that was his name, 
Lord Chelsted.” It had come back to him suddenly, with the telling. “I’d thought the man craven, but the 
day he confronted Aerys he found some courage somewhere. He did all he could to dissuade him. He 
reasoned, he jested, he threatened, and finally he begged. When that failed he took off his chain of office                                               and flung it down on the floor. Aerys burnt him alive for that, and hung his chain about the neck of 
Rossart, his favorite pyromancer. The man who had cooked Lord Rickard Stark in his own armor. And 
all the time, I stood by the foot of the iron Throne in my white plate, still as a corpse, guarding my liege 
and all his sweet secrets. 
“My Sworn Brothers were all away, you see, but Aerys liked to keep me close. I was my father’s 
son, so he did not trust me. He wanted me where Varys could watch me, day and night. So I heard it 
all.”

And he supposedly was Hand for a fortnight, killed during the Sack, which was going on just as Ned arrived from the Trident. So that would imply Darry got up to the Trident, they fought a battle, then Ned rode down to KL in roughly two weeks. That means that either the travelling time is about half of what you (very reasonably) suggest, or there was a roughly two week gap between the two Hands, or Jaime is wrong and Rossart was Hand for closer to a month. Looking at the world book, it seems to say that Rossart was appointed after R&V were sent away, after the Trident:

Quote

BIRDS FLEW AND couriers raced to bear word of the victory at the Ruby Ford. When the news reached the Red Keep, it was said that Aerys cursed the Dornish, certain that Lewyn had betrayed Rhaegar. He sent his pregnant queen, Rhaella, and his younger son and new heir, Viserys, away to Dragonstone, but Princess Elia was forced to remain in King’s Landing with Rhaegar’s children as a hostage against Dorne. Having burned his previous Hand, Lord Chelsted, alive for bad counsel during the war, Aerys now appointed another to the position: the alchemist Rossart—a man of low birth, with little to recommend him but his flames and trickery.

So I guess I answered my own question - my initial assumption was wrong, there was a considerable gap between Chelsted and Rossart. Which might be an indication how accurate Jaime is when retelling past events - technically, it's all true, but the way he put it makes it very easy to draw the wrong conclusion..

As far as the Rhaella business is concerned, then, this means she was sent away about two weeks after Aerys raped her.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

3 hours ago, nanother said:

I have to get back to this. I got confused between the two Darrys first time 'round, now I'm confused for another reason. Dany's conception is supposed to be on the same day (well, night) Aerys burned Chelstead. As Jaime tells it, sounds like he appointed Rossart right away (although he doesn't outright say so, so there's some wiggle room):

And he supposedly was Hand for a fortnight, killed during the Sack, which was going on just as Ned arrived from the Trident. So that would imply Darry got up to the Trident, they fought a battle, then Ned rode down to KL in roughly two weeks. That means that either the travelling time is about half of what you (very reasonably) suggest, or there was a roughly two week gap between the two Hands, or Jaime is wrong and Rossart was Hand for closer to a month. Looking at the world book, it seems to say that Rossart was appointed after R&V were sent away, after the Trident:

So I guess I answered my own question - my initial assumption was wrong, there was a considerable gap between Chelsted and Rossart. Which might be an indication how accurate Jaime is when retelling past events - technically, it's all true, but the way he put it makes it very easy to draw the wrong conclusion..

As far as the Rhaella business is concerned, then, this means she was sent away about two weeks after Aerys raped her.

The Jaime quote is indeed vague, and especially since the World Book, I interpret it as Jaime naming the replacement. The World Book implies that Aerys waited for a while with naming a Hand - as to why, we can only speculate.

But traveling from the Trident to KL in a fortnight indeed makes more sense. Ned and the court do so in a fortnight in AGOT, and Criston Cole marches an army to Harrenhal from KL in nineteen days.. 

[nanother]

On 1/17/2016 at 9:10 PM, wolfmaid7 said:

Now to the Rhaella question i said to you now twice that i don't think she is Rhaella's daughter.I think she is Rhaegar's and definitely not by his mother.Let me ask you something what does Rhaella look like? Has anyone described her has the author? 

Right, sorry, that was me getting confused by your insistence that Rhaella looking pregnant or not mattered at that point. I still don't get it. So we agree, Dany is not Rhaella's. That means

1. Rhaella a) might have died giving birth to someone else at the time everyone thinks she did, or b) not

2. Rhaella a) might have gone to Dragonstone, or b) not 

2a) Rhaella might have gone somewhere else for whatever reason before she went to Dragonstone, or not

In all combinations of these possibilities, Rhaella would be either not pregnant, or about (maybe a little over) two weeks pregnant at the time she was supposed to leave. Even she wouldn't notice it that early, let alone anyone else suspecting she might be pregnant. In all combinations, a woman not looking pregnant and wearing a hooded cloak would be getting into the royal wheelhouse - the only question is whether she would have the hood up or not (up for sure if she's a decoy, maybe up, maybe down if the real Rhaella). In all combinations, the hooded woman't identity has no bearing on when Dany was born to some other woman, somewhere else. 

 

1a) + 2a) raises the question what happened to Rhaella's child and how it got replaced with Dany, but otherwise fits with known events

1b) + 2a) raises the question why everyone thought she gave birth, what happened to her if she didn't die in childbirth, and how Dany ended up with Viserys

1a) + 2b) raises the question what happened to Rhaella's child, why everyone thinks it all happened on DS during that storm, how did no-one notice she wasn't there at all, and how Dany ended up with Viserys

1b) + 2b) raises the question what happened to Rhaella, why was Viserys on DS but not her, how did no-one notice she was not there, why does everyone think she died in childbirth during that storm, and how Dany ended up with Viserys.

So basically I don't see why I should believe that Rhaella didn't give birth on Dragonstone, or at least that she didn't eventually go to Dragonstone, regardless of whose daughter Dany is and when she was born. 

 

On 1/17/2016 at 9:10 PM, wolfmaid7 said:

Aerys has had Rhaella more or less on lockdown for years since he believed she was cheating that's why she was having so much miscarriages.So what does the Aerys do have two Septons sleep with her .

Hahaha, that settles it, Dany is Rhaella's child by two septons! (yes I realise it's probably a typo and it was supposed to be Septas)

[wolfmaid7]

Hi guys, sorry i've been absent.Work related. I'm still working and my access to the forum is going to be sporadic as hell.But please carry on with the threads which are not over yet.We will do the wrp up threads when they have concluded.

[wolfmaid7]

On 1/21/2016 at 8:30 AM, nanother said:

Wolfmaid, sorry, I had trouble posting for some days, took time before it started bothering me enough to do something about it  (all I had to do is clear cache, in the unlikely case someone is still having this problem). Will answer your post later.

 

I have to get back to this. I got confused between the two Darrys first time 'round, now I'm confused for another reason. Dany's conception is supposed to be on the same day (well, night) Aerys burned Chelstead. As Jaime tells it, sounds like he appointed Rossart right away (although he doesn't outright say so, so there's some wiggle room):

And he supposedly was Hand for a fortnight, killed during the Sack, which was going on just as Ned arrived from the Trident. So that would imply Darry got up to the Trident, they fought a battle, then Ned rode down to KL in roughly two weeks. That means that either the travelling time is about half of what you (very reasonably) suggest, or there was a roughly two week gap between the two Hands, or Jaime is wrong and Rossart was Hand for closer to a month. Looking at the world book, it seems to say that Rossart was appointed after R&V were sent away, after the Trident:

So I guess I answered my own question - my initial assumption was wrong, there was a considerable gap between Chelsted and Rossart. Which might be an indication how accurate Jaime is when retelling past events - technically, it's all true, but the way he put it makes it very easy to draw the wrong conclusion..

As far as the Rhaella business is concerned, then, this means she was sent away about two weeks after Aerys raped her.

Well this is the kicker and a good point to start and its the point i've been raising. If we go by the assumption and ignore what to me anyway are the clues surrounding the inconsistencies become clear. So lets start a fresh with  the assumptions which are

• Dany was born 9 moons after their flight from DS.
• Dany was concieved when Aerys raped Rhaella the night Chelsted was burn

I bolded the first because a lot hedges on the individual that Jamie saw actually being Rhaella.I'm leaving out all the timing because it's all irrelevant if the person wasn't her and Jamie did not see Rhaella.He saw a cloaked and hooded figure getting into the Royal wheelhouse an assumed based on info he thought what was supposed to happen.

If it was not a clue it would have been simpler from an author sandpoint just to say Jamie saw Rhaella getting into the wheelhouse without adding that she was "cloaked and hooded" its not neccessary. Now you might saw its common to wear that while traveling and i'll reply evenmore reason not to mention something that is not out of the ordinary.

 

On 1/21/2016 at 11:39 AM, Rhaenys_Targaryen said:

The Jaime quote is indeed vague, and especially since the World Book, I interpret it as Jaime naming the replacement. The World Book implies that Aerys waited for a while with naming a Hand - as to why, we can only speculate.

But traveling from the Trident to KL in a fortnight indeed makes more sense. Ned and the court do so in a fortnight in AGOT, and Criston Cole marches an army to Harrenhal from KL in nineteen days.. 

Again none of this matters unless Rhaella was the one Jamie saw and from a literary standpoint and the themes in this story it was not her.By themes i mean the reason one would have to conceal themselves given a specific situation and for a purpose in relation to character and audience perception.

1. Fooling Jamie and others into thinking that the queen was being taken to Dragonstone at that time.

2. Audience/reader drawing the conclusion based on Jamie's info that Dany was of a particular age.

On 1/22/2016 at 1:36 PM, nanother said:

Right, sorry, that was me getting confused by your insistence that Rhaella looking pregnant or not mattered at that point. I still don't get it. So we agree, Dany is not Rhaella's. That means

1. Rhaella a) might have died giving birth to someone else at the time everyone thinks she did, or b) not

2. Rhaella a) might have gone to Dragonstone, or b) not 

2a) Rhaella might have gone somewhere else for whatever reason before she went to Dragonstone, or not

In all combinations of these possibilities, Rhaella would be either not pregnant, or about (maybe a little over) two weeks pregnant at the time she was supposed to leave. Even she wouldn't notice it that early, let alone anyone else suspecting she might be pregnant. In all combinations, a woman not looking pregnant and wearing a hooded cloak would be getting into the royal wheelhouse - the only question is whether she would have the hood up or not (up for sure if she's a decoy, maybe up, maybe down if the real Rhaella). In all combinations, the hooded woman't identity has no bearing on when Dany was born to some other woman, somewhere else. 

 

1a) + 2a) raises the question what happened to Rhaella's child and how it got replaced with Dany, but otherwise fits with known events

1b) + 2a) raises the question why everyone thought she gave birth, what happened to her if she didn't die in childbirth, and how Dany ended up with Viserys

1a) + 2b) raises the question what happened to Rhaella's child, why everyone thinks it all happened on DS during that storm, how did no-one notice she wasn't there at all, and how Dany ended up with Viserys

1b) + 2b) raises the question what happened to Rhaella, why was Viserys on DS but not her, how did no-one notice she was not there, why does everyone think she died in childbirth during that storm, and how Dany ended up with Viserys.

So basically I don't see why I should believe that Rhaella didn't give birth on Dragonstone, or at least that she didn't eventually go to Dragonstone, regardless of whose daughter Dany is and when she was born. 

 

Hahaha, that settles it, Dany is Rhaella's child by two septons! (yes I realise it's probably a typo and it was supposed to be Septas)

To the fusha bolded...spot on. A ruse has been perpetuated and a good one.

To your questions i think all of that could be answered via one cultural perception.That is the idea of a "babe" and how GRRM has given himself an out within the narratve.

1.Jon talking about the season in relation to his percieved age says he was "a babe in arms" the math puts him at 4-5 based on that statement.Hey we could knock GRRM's math skills but......

2. Robb's motivational speech to Cat when she wouldn't leave Bran's side. Rickon is three at the time and Robb says "he's only a babe he keeps following me around crying because he doesn't know what's happening." I am paraphrasing because i don't have my books but check it out.

So when Stannis says Darry made of with "the babe" and Viserys, Dany could have been three years old for all we know.It's all in the what would Stannis be prone to ask and it wasn't along the lines of how old was the babe.It to broad a term and easy for people to use inorder to cultivate a background story.

Plus remember that these people didn't have " First response ept test" and as far as we know DS had its own staff right?

Lets superimpose Ned's situation at its core on Rhaella.

People believe Ned is Jon's father because he said so and he is an authority figure who everyone thinks is honorable man.Has anyone question him thus far? Nope.Why ? Not looking for Jon to be anyone other than Ned's bastard.

Dany is said to be Rhaella's and Aery's daughter it was declared that way so it must be. Did anyone question it though there are reasons to do so? No.Why? Shit's going down,people on the run,realm in chaos.Other things to think about.

We see it again with Jon Re: Monster and Aemon.

If someone of importance says thus people will believe it because they have an invested reason to believe it and not question it.In most cases to question it isn't even a thought.

 

So in the end what we have with regards to Dany is what people think which is given life by what other people think or concocted because it serves an end.

Looking at this objectively we have an assumption based on info that isn't true.What isn't true is that Rhaella was the one getting into that wheelhouse.Thus,if we are using that notion as the standard to affirm that Dany was born 9moons after "they" fled KL like she was led to believe then the house of cards tumbled.

 

[Jon's Queen Consort]

So Lyanna who hated Robert unfaithfulness got pregnant by him and gave birth more than a year later? That is why I don't like heresy threads, they look like a bad fanfiction.

[wolfmaid7]

19 minutes ago, Jon's Queen Consort said:

So Lyanna who hated Robert unfaithfulness got pregnant by him and gave birth more than a year later? That is why I don't like heresy threads, they look like a bad fanfiction.

Let's look at your statement

1. Lyanna "hated Robert's unfaithfullness"

Can you point to him being ever unfaithful to her? And know that by that type of questioning that's achknowleding that there was something betwen them.Your also using and expression not exhibted by Lyanna at all.No hate.Concern yes.

2.As to her getting pregnant. Robert and Lyanna have a given that can't be prooven with anyone else.....Time.All of Robert's behavior and behavior of individuals familar with both parties i.e Ned Indicate that the feeling expressed by Robert was mutal. Unless you don't trust Ned's visual POV and believe Robert was in a relationship by his lonesome?

3. Just a point so Lyanna running off with a married guy with kids who she doesn't know at all reads like......?????

[Gaius Gracchus]

I enjoyed this thread immensely. Thank you for this. It's fascinating how the vast majority of people can disagree with your theory and you accuse them of bias! On the other hand, I didn't see you recognize that you might be biased in favor of your own theory once. What a world we live in. Anyway...

In order for this theory to be correct, too many characters need to have faulty recollections and there are just too many logical inconsistencies as a whole.

For example, pretty much all of Ned's evidence in support of Cersei and Jaime's betrayal is that all Robert's bastards look like him whereas Joff, Tommen, and Myrcella do not. If Ned already knows of one bastard who doesn't look like him, wouldn't he stop and think that it's possible this could have occurred with Joff and company as well? And no, Jon doesn't look like Robert.  

Another problem: A main premise of your theory is that Dany is 8 or 9 months older than commonly believed in order to get the dates correct. You claim that Viserys, among others, is unreliable. I believe you said Dany gave herself the name "Stormborn" rather than it being given to her. We see it first referenced in Dany's first POV chapter when Viserys and Dany are presented to Khal Drogo. This means that she supposedly gave this title to herself before her marriage to Khal Drogo when she was a timid, young girl. That seems pretty out of character for her at that point. 

On top of this, if she is 8 or 9 months older than commonly believed, that means she would've been born around when she's commonly believed to have been conceived. If this is the case, that means she was alive during the sack of KL, so why wasn't she in the nursery with Aegon and Rhaenys (especially if she's Rhaegar and Elia's child like you claim)? You're telling me that they decided to smuggle one child out (not the heir mind you, but the second daughter), and not the other two? The dates are also somewhat problematic if she's Rhaegar's daughter because that means she was probably conceived in 282 and we don't even know if Aegon was born by then (his birth is listed as 281 or 282).

Also, if Elia had been pregnant, how would nobody have known including both Jaime and Barristan! Or Doran and Oberyn! You don't think she would have written her family to tell them she's pregnant again? And if she's Rhaella's, once again, how would Jaime at the very least not have known? Furthermore, Jon Connington recalls that "After the birth of Princess Rhaenys, [Elia] had been bedridden for half a year, and Prince Aegon's birth had almost been the death of her. She would bear no more children, the maesters told Prince Rhaegar afterward." Is Jon Connington an unreliable narrator as well or was Rhaegar lying to Jon? If so, why? There is no evidence to suggest that Dany is Elia and Rhaegar's daughter other than your own imagination. 

In light of all that, isn't it simpler to just conclude that Dany was born when people say she was? 

There are plenty more holes like this that you have to ignore in order to accept your theory (Cat not recognizing Jon was 6 months older than Robb, everyone (including Barristan) believing Lyanna was abducted when she actually wasn't, etc. etc.). In light of that, when people don't support your theory, you probably shouldn't claim that they are the ones who are biased. 

[TimJames]

You do a good job characterizing Robert and Lyanna.

While I think don't think Jon Snow is Robert's son (I think he was concieved when Rhaegar raped Lyanna), if it turns out that Jon Snow IS Robert's son than I will be happy.

[The Wolves]

37 minutes ago, TimJames said:

You do a good job characterizing Robert and Lyanna.

While I think don't think Jon Snow is Robert's son (I think he was concieved when Rhaegar raped Lyanna), if it turns out that Jon Snow IS Robert's son than I will be happy.

I will rage if Jon turns out to be that loser's kid which is just not going to happen. 

I wish people would stop trying to make Jon into a punk ass Baratheon. 

[TimJames]

8 hours ago, The Wolves said:

I will rage if Jon turns out to be that loser's kid which is just not going to happen. 

I wish people would stop trying to make Jon into a punk ass Baratheon. 

Better a Badass Baratheon than an Arrogant Inbred Targaryen.

The Targaryens spent three centuries acting like their ethnicity made them better than everyone else. Somebody had to put them in their place. 

And calling Robert a Loser negates his accomplishments. Would a "loser" be able to win a civil war against both The Targaryens AND The Greyjoys? Would a "loser" be able to have a stable reign for fifteen years? Or how about choosing the best Hands, could a "loser" do that?

[The Wolves]

2 hours ago, TimJames said:

Better a Badass Baratheon than an Arrogant Inbred Targaryen.

The Targaryens spent three centuries acting like their ethnicity made them better than everyone else. Somebody had to put them in their place. 

And calling Robert a Loser negates his accomplishments. Would a "loser" be able to win a civil war against both The Targaryens AND The Greyjoys? Would a "loser" be able to have a stable reign for fifteen years? Or how about choosing the best Hands, could a "loser" do that?

The Baratheons are a bunch of bitches just crybaby emotionally stunted bitches we saw it with Robert, Renly and Stannis. Stop trying to put a Baratheon claim on Jon he's too good to be a Baratheon. 

And even with those accomplishments doesn't not make Robert a loser. He was a fat disgusting drunk who only had bastards and had his wife and Kingsguard fecking right beside him practically his whole reign than was murdered by his wife. He was a loser. Do not attach him to Jon. 

[Laughing Storm Reborn]

This is going to be abattle until the next book i'm gladly away from... it feels like hitting rock with rubber

5 hours ago, The Wolves said:

The Baratheons are a bunch of bitches just crybaby emotionally stunted bitches we saw it with Robert, Renly and Stannis. Stop trying to put a Baratheon claim on Jon he's too good to be a Baratheon. 

And even with those accomplishments doesn't not make Robert a loser. He was a fat disgusting drunk who only had bastards and had his wife and Kingsguard fecking right beside him practically his whole reign than was murdered by his wife. He was a loser. Do not attach him to Jon. 

Do not attach Jon with Bob, attach him with Rhaegar who´s attached to the MADDEST GUY IN THE STORY?!?... flawless logic

By the time of AGOT, everyone has blood from everyone else... heck Bob himself is 1/4 Targ

Nature vs Nurture