Heresy Project X+Y=J: Robert + Lyanna

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

I don't think that's a fair characterization of Robert.Who Robert was is not who he became. He was a ladies man but prior to Lyanna he had no obligation to anyone. He was a man that exemplified battle, bedding and bear.It's his archetype and that's important. 

But he was merciful, gentle, charismatic and brave.We know who Robert is we know him at his best, vulnerable and at his worse.

He is a multidimensional character who we are very cognizant of his flaws and his strength

The bolded is correct. The man we see in AGOT is not the same man who fought in the Rebellion fifteen years before. 

Lyanna's statement, though, is about the man Robert was, not the man he would eventually become.

“Robert will never keep to one bed,” Lyanna had told him at Winterfell, on the night long ago when their father had promised her hand to the young Lord of Storm’s End. “I hear he has gotten a child on some girl in the Vale.” Ned had held the babe in his arms; he could scarcely deny her, nor would he lie to his sister, but he had assured her that what Robert did before their betrothal was of no matter, that he was a good man and true who would love her with all his heart. Lyanna had only smiled. “Love is sweet, dearest Ned, but it cannot change a man’s nature.”

Ned tells Lyanna that "what Robert did before their betrothal was of no matter"... Who Robert slept with before their betrothal, who Robert fathered children on before their betrothal, that shouldn't matter to Lyanna.

But Lyanna is clear. "Robert will never keep to one bed." And neither his love for her would be able to change that. 

So to state that

Robert could only keep to one bed if Lyanna was offering hers up for him.

Is directly against what Lyanna says.

Robert's smile? He is smiling with the idea of marrying his house to Ned's... Becoming family for real, just as had supposed to happen years ago. 

 

In your OP, Wolfmaid, you also state that

Consider,the questioner's query is based on the belief that certain info is accurate.First remember GRRM himself has made Jon’s parentage a secret. Putting clues in the series, his 98 letter and his tight lipped interviews on the matter. So in light of the preceding, why would he give it away with this ssm? I don’t think he did because he knew the conclusion which was going to be drawn would be false and that’s because Dany wasn’t born when she thought.We will spend pages on this i'm sure, but my hypothesis is based on clear anomalies below.

 

1. Jamie’s account of the Dragonstone departure.( The cloaked woman leaving for DS in the day)

 

 

2. Visery’s account of fleeing to Dragonstone.( Midnight flight from KL,and Black sails )

 

 

3. Dany’s memories.( Lemontree,Poleboats and grasslands).

Some will believe the above are something to question and some will believe nothing is there.This is a matter again of some viewing certain things as clues to which i'll say it will be settled by GRRM.But the above are considerably more than reasonable doubt to question Dany's name day.

I've already discussed with you how I don't see the account Jaime gives as contradicting the fact that Viserys went with Rhaella. But I wanted to draw your attention to something else atm.

 

I mentioned this on another of the threads about your project, though I can't recall which one, atm. But have you considered the following possibility: that either Viserys mixed up two stories into one when telling the story to Dany (either on purpose, or accidentally), or that Dany mixed up two stories that Viserys had told her years ago?

 

Because Daenerys tells us that Viserys was eight years old when he fled, and we know that that is incorrect. Viserys was born in 276 AC, and would have been 7 in 283 AC, when he and Rhaella fled KL to Dragonstone. Yet fleeing Dragonstone occured in 284 AC, the year Viserys turned 8. 

 

Darry and his men fleeing Dragonstone with the two Targaryen children even has the necessity of the black sails.. They would need the secrecy, they would need to sneak away without being spotted. They could use the black sails in the story. And, we know it was a flight during the night.

The garrison had been prepared to sell them to the Usurper, but one night Ser Willem Darry and four loyal men had broken into the nursery and stolen them both, along with her wet nurse, and set sail under cover of darkness for the safety of the Braavosian coast.

 

 

[wolfmaid7]

 

The bolded is correct. Thother man we see in AGOT is not the same man who fought in t'she Rebellion fifteen years before. 

Lyanna's statement, though, is about the man Robert was, not the man he would eventually become.

“Robert will never keep to one bed,” Lyanna had told him at Winterfell, on the night long ago when their father had promised her hand to the young Lord of Storm’s End. “I hear he has gotten a child on some girl in the Vale.” Ned had held the babe in his arms; he could scarcely deny her, nor would he lie to his sister, but he had assured her that what Robert did before their betrothal was of no matter, that he was a good man and true who would love her with all his heart. Lyanna had only smiled. “Love is sweet, dearest Ned, but it cannot change a man’s nature.”

Ned tells Lyanna that "what Robert did before their betrothal was of no matter"... Who Robert slept with before their betrothal, who Robert fathered children on before their betrothal, that shouldn't matter to Lyanna.

But Lyanna is clear. "Robert will never keep to one bed." And neither his love for her would be able to change that. 

So to state that

 

Is directly against what Lyanna says.

Robert's smile? He is smiling with the idea of marrying his house to Ned's... Becoming family for real, just as had supposed to happen years ago. 

 

In your OP, Wolfmaid, you also state that

 

I've already discussed with you how I don't see the account Jaime gives as contradicting the fact that Viserys went with Rhaella. But I wanted to draw your attention to something else atm.

 

I mentioned this on another of the threads about your project, though I can't recall which one, atm. But have you considered the following possibility: that either Viserys mixed up two stories into one when telling the story to Dany (either on purpose, or accidentally), or that Dany mixed up two stories that Viserys had told her years ago?

 

Because Daenerys tells us that Viserys was eight years old when he fled, and we know that that is incorrect. Viserys was born in 276 AC, and would have been 7 in 283 AC, when he and Rhaella fled KL to Dragonstone. Yet fleeing Dragonstone occured in 284 AC, the year Viserys turned 8. 

 

Darry and his men fleeing Dragonstone with the two Targaryen children even has the necessity of the black sails.. They would need the secrecy, they would need to sneak away without being spotted. They could use the black sails in the story. And, we know it was a flight during the night.

The garrison had been prepared to sell them to the Usurper, but one night Ser Willem Darry and four loyal men had broken into the nursery and stolen them both, along with her wet nurse, and set sail under cover of darkness for the safety of the Braavosian coast.

 

 

Just checking in but i will answer this when i get home.But there seems to be a conflating of the issue here.I'm not dismissing Lyanna "initial" feelings.I validated it its how she felt when she heard she was to marry him but that doesn't change the connotation of her statement. 

1.She knew that sleeping with Robert from the get was on the table.She was ok with that AND she believed he wasn't going to keep to one bed.And that's the point.We could argue up and down tge river about her initial feelings but that doesn't change that she knew and was ok that sex was on the table from the get.

2.  Secondly, and i pointed this out it was her feelings initially based on her familiarity with Robert.And it was natural but the point i showed is they had time.Time for Robert to prove her right and thus her initial feelings would be naturally subject to change or not based on their time.

this is what i will write more about when i get home but you confuse my meaning Jamie's info only contradicts one thing and its a big one....Who he thought left Kings landing.

Dany's birth rest on that woman being Rhaella and heading to Dragonstone.the clues do not support that.

Ok i have a little time o to continue with this post particularly the Viserys aspect.To answer your question the answer is no.I don't think Viserys is mixing up the events because there's really nothing to mix up.The first problem i have is this.

1. Its odd that you would ask me to consider that Viserys is mixing up events while simutaneously using those same events as proof that Dany was born when she said she was.Do you see the problem with that?

2. You are correct though in pointing out that Viserys is eight years old something i have referenced and said that events would have a sense of poetry about it. I.e Moonlight shimmering etc.But If we look pass the language there are solid things that can be gleaned from the info.

a. The haste in which they left

b. The fact that the ship that bore them flew black sails indicative of smugglers.And yes we have this talk before and why your reasoning doesn't hold up. You broadcast you are going to DS don't use your ships to go to DS instead use a smugglers ship to go to the very first place any sensible enemy would look? Why use a smugglers ship to go to a place everyone knows you will go to?

3.And there's Jamie's account which is not contradictory to elements given by Viserys it is more ancillary which is what i should have said.It continues the vein of what was said out loud not matching when you think about it. What Jamie was made to believe he saw wasn't what it was. He saw a decoy which means that Rhaella most likely already left KL and Viserys stayed close to his father as Aerys always until the end.

Martin  could have easily said Jamie saw Rhaella and not even write in tha who Jamie saw was cloaked and hooded. I happen to have a few medieval cloaks and gowns which i use to go to various Faires and they are of teh courtly class.I can'r express how much fabric is in those garments but i will tell you one thing the hooded cloaked doesn't reveal anything.You literally cannot see who is under it unless that person is right up inyour face.

GRRM didn't put that in there for nothing.

[Lord Fauntleroy]

I like this theory and want to believe it. It makes Rhaegar into a possible villain, who actually DID kidnap Lyanna. Maybe he was more like Aerion Brightflame or Viserys than we expect?

But I'm not totally sold. The timeline issues and Jon's apparent destiny as the ice dragon and/or song of ice and fire and/or third head of the dragon give more credence to Rhaegar as the father.

[Melifeather]

"Robert would swear undying love and forget them before evenfall," - AGoT p. 380

This from Ned, arguably, his best friend.

"The storm lord drank down the knight of skulls and kisses in a wine-cup war." -ASoS p. 340

At Harrenhal, Robert is getting drunk in the corner with his buddy, and not paying attention to his fiance.

 

 

I don't know if this post was directed at me or wolfmaid, but I was stating that the only objection Lyanna raised about Robert was that she didn't think he'd keep to one bed. She doesn't say anything else about his character.

 

Ah? Fidelity, or rather lack of, is not a feature of character?

Out of Maegor's six wives, five were not Targaryen, so this argument doesn't hold water.

 

Nor is there that she wouldn't.

On the other hand, we have multiple statements that wedding the woman you want to bed is the right thing to do.

 

I can't stand Cersei just fine but don't make Robert a poor victim of her shortcomings. His idea of fine life was battle, ale, and a girl in his bed. Cersei's coldness drove him away sooner rather than later, but he would have cheated on her anyway, because that's the kind of man he was, and always had been. He would have kept to Cersei's bed when Cersei was around, and if he travelled somewhere, he would have found another bedwarmer, because Seven forbid that he might deny himself his pleasures.

 

Of course he was. If you think about character X shortcomings and then you think that character Y wouldn't do that, you are comparing characters X and Y.

Fidelity is certainly a feature of character. I was just stating that it was the only feature Lyanna objected to, and if having her husband to herself was that important to Lyanna then she certainly wouldn't want to share Rhaegar.

I am so glad you brought up Maegor's wives:

Maegor's wives:

Ceryse Hightower - married 25 AC, died 45 AC - never had children

Alys Harroway - married 39 AC, died 44 AC after giving birth to deformed child with wings

Tyanna of Pentos - married 42 AC, died 48 AC - never had children

Elinor Costayne - married 47 AC, died ? - gave birth to a stillborn deformed baby with wings

Rhaena Targaryen - married 47 AC, died? - gave birth to two healthy Targaryen daughters.

Jeyne Westerling - married 47 AC, died 47 AC - died in childbirth when 6 months pregnant. Child was deformed with wings.

The brides that were not Targaryen gave birth to deformed children with wings. Interesting. It would seem that you need two Targaryens to give birth to live children free of deformities or wings, because just like Dany's Rhaego, a union with only one Targaryen has a high likelihood that it will produce a stillborn child that is deformed and has wings.

[wolfmaid7]

I likeiDany'smtDs theory and want to believe it. It makes Rhaegar into a possible villain, who actually DID kidnap Lyanna. Maybe he was more like Aerion Brightflame or Viserys than we expect?

 

But I'm not totally sold. The timeline issues and Jon's apparent destiny as the ice dragon and/or song of ice and fire and/or third head of the dragon give more credence to Rhaegar as the father.

the heads of the Dragon need not be all Targs.Paraphrasing GRRM. 

The timeline isn't an issue because its based off info that is faulty namely. 

1.Dany's believed birth.

[Luna Longmoon]

ILets take your "gripe" bit by bit for a second.

Ygrain your confusing yourself and what your asking makes no sense.Why would he have a beef with Robert for this when he already knows Robert's appetite himself. He knows how sexual Robert is,it would be crazy for Ned to think that Robert is going to wait how ever long before he and Lyanna gets married without having sex .he has no reason at all to ever be upset with Robert he himself have said.

" Robert has never been patient."

Robert has always been a man with a huge appetite who knew how to take his pleasure." 

So it's kind of silly to think he would then somehow expect Robert to somehow abstain???That is madness right there.You have better luck keeping water in a sieve.

Let's see a lithe girl like Lyanna who was tomboyish wouldn't show big as someone bigger than her would.She could hide in big clothes especially if she like dressing in guys clothing like Arya did. And Lastly,why would anyone notice if she bolts when she begins to show?

Ygrain you really grasping at some weird straws.Murder carries consequences if one is caught.It being a crime has nothing to do with you not being punished if no one knows you did said crime. Likewise Lyanna and Robert are protected from any consequences as long as no one knew and they kept there mouths shut.You know just like the other examples i gave in the rebuttal sections of a few people who actually were smart enough not to blab about their sexual escapades.

Another nonsense reply Ygrain i dare you to tell your husband/wife or boyfriend/girlfiend i'm no longer going to have sex with you and i expect you to be faithful.First of all you wouldn't tell them that because you wouldn't risk that they would step out on you. Here's a saying that's well knows " If YOU ain't sleeping with your man,bet your money someone else is."Secondly,that any person would expect someone to be deprived and do nothing to help is ridiculous and it further validates what i'm saying.What's a stupid thing to do is for anyone to expect Robert to go without,to make a match with someone who is already experianced and then pull the plug for X amount of time........Ygrain this fails completely.

What are you going on about with Cat? I never said such a foolish thing.So i can't answer you.

According to Jon in his first chapter of AGOT speaking to Benjen Luuwin says this: " Maester Luwin says bastards grow up faster than other children."

Think about this Ygrain. Tell me under what circumstances,what statement made would have merited this reply from Luwin? Someone noticed something about Jon asked a question and this was the response he gave to appease whether he believed it or not.It did its job.There's is an ideology about bastards that makes such things believeable.Its the Sealord's Cat all over again.Something is clear and a person in a postion of trust and authority gives a reason and it is believed.Simple as that.

No i'm not reading into something that not there.As to what notable event that happens to keep time and events......Ohhhh this is going to get good...I'm glad you asked that Ygrain.....The seasons or more specifically the Weather.Is the picture coming into focus better...*cough* Oak /Holly kings.

 

Welcome Goldenstorm wolf. I agree with you i would have probably been a while before Cat could bring herself to face her insult.A bit further in the Politics of Marriage section i referenced two quotes form GRRM about the importance of the royal and noble class to adhere to matches that were made for them because there was more at stake than their feelings/likes/dislikes etc.In some cases the match was a good one in others no.

Its something i will talk about a bit later when i'm done cooking dinner ( tofu fajitas anyone?) But the question to ask before we put Rhaegar with Lyanna is if he had anything to do with her disappearence? I do not believe Rhaegar was a scapegoat.He was guilty of blabbing about his cousin's woman but he was innocent of anything having to do with her going missing.

The key to that is both Brandon, Ned and Rhaegar's behavior and things they said and didn't say.

As i said i'll speak more on this in a bit.

OK, I'm intrigued, if Rhaegar is just the scapegoat, what is the theory on her disappearance and death? 

[Luna Longmoon]

However, just to point out that Arryns, Martells, Baratheons, Blackwoods, and others had successful babies wit) Targaryens so that doesn't' prove fatherhood one way or the other.

[wolfmaid7]

"Robert would swear undying love and forget them before evenfall," - AGoT p. 380

This from Ned, arguably, his best friend.

"The storm lord drank down the knight of skulls and kisses in a wine-cup war." -ASoS p. 340

At Harrenhal, Robert is getting drunk in the corner with his buddy, and not paying attention to his fiance.

 

You are 100% correct Robert would forget "them" all. But he always remembered the one that counted didn't he. 

"No sooner had those formalities of greeting been completed than the king had said to his host, “Take me down to your crypt, Eddard. I would pay my respects.” Ned loved him for that, for remembering her still after all these years (agot,Ned).

There's literally in the intimacy section of this essay like half a dozen quotes showing he hasn't forgotten Lyanna.The man named a ship after her instead of his present wife.What does that say?

Robert was having fun when it called for it,it doesn't mean he wasn't paying her any attention.Who was Lyanna hanging with? She wasn't dancing and crap like that she was hanging with the boys.

Read the parallels between Jon and Robert especally the one where both him and Robert were getting drunk at the feast.

 

On the other hand, we have multiple statements that wedding the woman you want to bed is the right thing to do.

 

I can't stand Cersei just fine but don't make Robert a poor victim of her shortcomings. His idea of fine life was battle, ale, and a girl in his bed. Cersei's coldness drove him away sooner rather than later, but he would have cheated on her anyway, because that's the kind of man he was, and always had been. He would have kept to Cersei's bed when Cersei was around, and if he travelled somewhere, he would have found another bedwarmer, because Seven forbid that he might deny himself his pleasures.

 

Of course he was. If you think about character X shortcomings and then you think that character Y wouldn't do that, you are comparing characters X and Y.

Ygrain you just don't get it do you.Ask Jon Snow if while he was bedding Ygritte if he was thinking about marriage or was it just how she made him feel when they were together.Ask Ygritte if Jon dishonored her.If she felt that he did.

Ask Jon during the feast for Robert how he liked the conversation.

"Down here on the benches, there was no one to stop Jon drinking as much as he had a thirst for. And he was finding that he had a man’s thirst, to the raucous delight of the youths around him, who urged him on every time he drained a glass. They were fine company, and Jon relished the stories they were telling, tales of battle and bedding and the hunt." 

He did actually, like father like son.Bonified Horned god.

Ask Robb and Jeyne Westerling if at the point they were shagging if such things mattered.Ask Brandon,Theon,Barbery.Ask Joffrey when he wanted to bang Sansa and get her preggers before they got married about crap like that.

You and i defer on the tone in which Ned said:

"He wondered if Rhaegar had frequented brothels; somehow he thought not."

Ygrain,the bolded was not a positive remark it was sarcasm which sometimes depend on tone of voice as in Ned's comment.

Lastly, please read the rebuttal section.I've already answered this. What society says and what happens behind the scene is another thing. 

OK, I'm intrigued, if Rhaegar is just the scapegoat, what is the theory on her disappearance and death? 

Just to sum it up Ned and Lyanna were behind Lyanna's disppearance.Maybe there were others involved (Howland) but those two were. Brandon was in the dark,Robert was in the dark.

I will hopefully in a few days or so write up that as a complimentary post.

 

 

[Ygrain]

You are 100% correct Robert would forget "them" all. But he always remembered the one that counted didn't he. 

"No sooner had those formalities of greeting been completed than the king had said to his host, “Take me down to your crypt, Eddard. I would pay my respects.” Ned loved him for that, for remembering her still after all these years (agot,Ned).

There's literally in the intimacy section of this essay like half a dozen quotes showing he hasn't forgotten Lyanna.The man named a ship after her instead of his present wife.What does that say?

It shows that he, in his unhappy life as king with Cersei as wife, pines for and puts on the pedestal the one that he cannot have.

BTW, I don't have the books at hand now, but isn't there a Queen Cersei ship, as well?

 

Ygrain you just don't get it do you.Ask Jon Snow if while he was bedding Ygritte if he was thinking about marriage or was it just how she made him feel when they were together.Ask Ygritte if Jon dishonored her.If she felt that he did.

Your point would be valid if Ygritte's culture valued virginity. It doesn't.

Ask Jon during the feast for Robert how he liked the conversation.

"Down here on the benches, there was no one to stop Jon drinking as much as he had a thirst for. And he was finding that he had a man’s thirst, to the raucous delight of the youths around him, who urged him on every time he drained a glass. They were fine company, and Jon relished the stories they were telling, tales of battle and bedding and the hunt." 

He did actually, like father like son.Bonified Horned god.

This is the only time in the books that we see Jon drink excessively, the only time that he indulges in such a conversation. Guess why.

 

Ask Robb and Jeyne Westerling if at the point they were shagging if such things mattered.

Guess why Robb married her immediately afterwards. He put her honour above his own just to do right by her, no matter the cost to him.

Ask Brandon,Theon,Barbery.Ask Joffrey when he wanted to bang Sansa and get her preggers before they got married about crap like that.

You must have missed the part where I said "the RIGHT" thing to do. Your examples are guys who wouldn't tell right from wrong even if you put labels on it.

You and i defer on the tone in which Ned said:

"He wondered if Rhaegar had frequented brothels; somehow he thought not."

Ygrain,the bolded was not a positive remark it was sarcasm which sometimes depend on tone of voice as in Ned's comment.

No. There is no sarcasm in the statement. He arrives at a conclusion about Rhaegar, based on what he knows or concludes about him. Absolutely nothing points toward sarcasm, this is your wishful thinking to change the meaning of the phrase.

Lastly, please read the rebuttal section.I've already answered this. What society says and what happens behind the scene is another thing. 

Your general statement has nothing to do with examples of particular characters. By insisting that Robert deflowered Lyanna, you are making him that sort of person who would commit an act that his best friend's family would totally disapprove of and that is NOT turned a blind eye to.

Oh, and as for repeated claim that Lyanna agreed with sex from the getgo: No, she didn't. You are inserting here modern concepts of relationship. In Lyanna's society and social rank, an agreement to betrothal was not consent to sex immediately but AFTER the wedding.

Just to sum it up Ned and Lyanna were behind Lyanna's disppearance.Maybe there were others involved (Howland) but those two were. Brandon was in the dark,Robert was in the dark.

I will hopefully in a few days or so write up that as a complimentary post.

ComplEment all you will, I am much anxious to hear how Ned in the Vale conspired with Lyanna at HH at the closest, and how come we don't see him showing any guilt over the deaths of his father and brother or letting Robert kill Rhaegar for no reason. Just don't forget to label it properly as "fanfiction".

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Ok i have a little time o to continue with this post particularly the Viserys aspect.To answer your question the answer is no.I don't think Viserys is mixing up the events because there's really nothing to mix up.The first problem i have is this.

1. Its odd that you would ask me to consider that Viserys is mixing up events while simutaneously using those same events as proof that Dany was born when she said she was.Do you see the problem with that?

2. You are correct though in pointing out that Viserys is eight years old something i have referenced and said that events would have a sense of poetry about it. I.e Moonlight shimmering etc.But If we look pass the language there are solid things that can be gleaned from the info.

a. The haste in which they left

b. The fact that the ship that bore them flew black sails indicative of smugglers.And yes we have this talk before and why your reasoning doesn't hold up. You broadcast you are going to DS don't use your ships to go to DS instead use a smugglers ship to go to the very first place any sensible enemy would look? Why use a smugglers ship to go to a place everyone knows you will go to?

3.And there's Jamie's account which is not contradictory to elements given by Viserys it is more ancillary which is what i should have said.It continues the vein of what was said out loud not matching when you think about it. What Jamie was made to believe he saw wasn't what it was. He saw a decoy which means that Rhaella most likely already left KL and Viserys stayed close to his father as Aerys always until the end.

Martin  could have easily said Jamie saw Rhaella and not even write in tha who Jamie saw was cloaked and hooded. I happen to have a few medieval cloaks and gowns which i use to go to various Faires and they are of teh courtly class.I can'r express how much fabric is in those garments but i will tell you one thing the hooded cloaked doesn't reveal anything.You literally cannot see who is under it unless that person is right up inyour face.

GRRM didn't put that in there for nothing.

Barristan describes Rhaegar defeating Simon Toyne in a tourney, even though the tourney described took place after Toyne's death. That doesn't mean that Barristan is completely wrong. He's simply mixing two (or more) tourney's into one, accidentally, when telling the story. All he tells Dany happened, just not at the same event.

Why wouldn't that be the same with Viserys? Viserys most definitly wasn't eight when he fled KL. The only way for that to be possible is to have him remain at KL for a year after Aerys's death, while Robert was there.

Fleeing in haste, and using black sails, as well as sailing at night, those are all key elements for the flight from Dragonstone to Braavos. As well Viserys's age.

It isn't Viserys's tale that tells us Daenerys was born 9 months after fleeing KL. That's Daenerys, all on her own. Viserys's stories have got little to nothing to do with that.

[Wall Flower]

It shows that he, in his unhappy life as king with Cersei as wife, pines for and puts on the pedestal the one that he cannot have.

BTW, I don't have the books at hand now, but isn't there a Queen Cersei ship, as well?

 

Your point would be valid if Ygritte's culture valued virginity. It doesn't.

This is the only time in the books that we see Jon drink excessively, the only time that he indulges in such a conversation. Guess why.

 

Guess why Robb married her immediately afterwards. He put her honour above his own just to do right by her, no matter the cost to him.

You must have missed the part where I said "the RIGHT" thing to do. Your examples are guys who wouldn't tell right from wrong even if you put labels on it.

No. There is no sarcasm in the statement. He arrives at a conclusion about Rhaegar, based on what he knows or concludes about him. Absolutely nothing points toward sarcasm, this is your wishful thinking to change the meaning of the phrase.

Your general statement has nothing to do with examples of particular characters. By insisting that Robert deflowered Lyanna, you are making him that sort of person who would commit an act that his best friend's family would totally disapprove of and that is NOT turned a blind eye to.

Oh, and as for repeated claim that Lyanna agreed with sex from the getgo: No, she didn't. You are inserting here modern concepts of relationship. In Lyanna's society and social rank, an agreement to betrothal was not consent to sex immediately but AFTER the wedding.

ComplEment all you will, I am much anxious to hear how Ned in the Vale conspired with Lyanna at HH at the closest, and how come we don't see him showing any guilt over the deaths of his father and brother or letting Robert kill Rhaegar for no reason. Just don't forget to label it properly as "fanfiction".

 

I always assumed that when Lyanna said that  'Robert will never keep to one bed' she meant that Robert would never keep to one bed - including hers. I never would have assumed that she was actually saying that she would have to put out if she wanted to be a dutiful betrothed and keep her man happy and faithful. It sounds like something I remember Jerry Hall saying in a women's magazine back in the 90's right before she found out that her significant other (Mick Jagger) was impregnating other women. Lyanna seems rather more dubious about love (or sex) keeping Robert on the straight and narrow. The fact that Robert remained highly promiscuous and very unfaithful to his wife would seem to bear out Lyanna's point of view. Cersei's coldness may have given him an excuse but it didn't change who Robert had always been.

 

We know that Robert wanted Lyanna and Rickard was definitely keen on the match but how do we know that Lyanna even fancied Robert or wanted to have sex with him ever? Just because Ned had a man crush on his best friend doesn't mean that Lyanna felt the same way. Lyanna was the one person who didn't get a say about her betrothal.

 

[wolfmaid7]

RT, and Ygrain i will reply to you both as usual when I get home.

[wolfmaid7]

Barristan describes Rhaegar defeating Simon Toyne in a tourney, even though the tourney described took place after Toyne's death. That doesn't mean that Barristan is completely wrong. He's simply mixing two (or more) tourney's into one, accidentally, when telling the story. All he tells Dany happened, just not at the same event.

Why wouldn't that be the same with Viserys? Viserys most definitly wasn't eight when he fled KL. The only way for that to be possible is to have him remain at KL for a year after Aerys's death, while Robert was there.

Fleeing in haste, and using black sails, as well as sailing at night, those are all key elements for the flight from Dragonstone to Braavos. As well Viserys's age.

It isn't Viserys's tale that tells us Daenerys was born 9 months after fleeing KL. That's Daenerys, all on her own. Viserys's stories have got little to nothing to do with that.

1. Erm Barristan's experiance is his experiance.His mistake is his mistake so to superimpose that on another and call that fact is not the way to go.The elements and circimstances are different. We have to look at the individual tale and judge it. I don't know where you got the idea that Viserys is mixing up events from because he isn't.He is simply retelling an event.And the author has given us clues about the event that he remembers. 

a.They fled KL as the usurper's army was advancing- Overall interp they got the hell outta dodge.

b.They left at night via a ship with black sails.

RT that is the basics we need to know that's something that is descriptive to the minimum and leaves no room for mistakes.

You are still not getting the point and it really is a matter of critical thinking to be honest.

The information that was released or spread was that:

a. The queen and Viserys were packed and sent to Dragonstone.

So far so good.We are on the same page there.Everyone thought they were going to DS.Even the rebels.

Common sense now . If you have a fleet of your own you do not use a pirate ship to smuggle your queen and heir to a place you broadcasted that you were going to and the place is also the first location anyone will look.Just use your own ship.

2. Jamie's accounts

a. The time period in between when he heard "Rhaella" screaming and the morning she left can't be determined.

b. He did not see the Queen he saw a figure cloaked and hooded and assumed it was her ging to DS.You all can't talk yourself out of that.

c.Viserys was not there that is an important ommission that a sensible person reading this series should pay attention to.

To your other point about what Viserys may or may not have told Dany.First off its even worse if the evidence is coming from her.I don't know how you can even use that.Seriously,wouldn't that make you question it more coming from someone whose vocabulary at the time might have been no more extensive than " goo goo ga ga?"

Dany said when looking back not to fondly of Viserys death and just thinking about him that it was him that provided the info for her backstory.I will look for that quote.

I'm sorry but these counters have nothing there.

It shows that he, in his unhappy life as king with Cersei as wife, pines for and puts on the pedestal the one that he cannot have.

BTW, I don't have the books at hand now, but isn't there a Queen Cersei ship, as well?

 

Your point would be valid if Ygritte's culture valued virginity. It doesn't.

This is the only time in the books that we see Jon drink excessively, the only time that he indulges in such a conversation. Guess why.

 

Guess why Robb married her immediately afterwards. He put her honour above his own just to do right by her, no matter the cost to him.

You must have missed the part where I said "the RIGHT" thing to do. Your examples are guys who wouldn't tell right from wrong even if you put labels on it.

No. There is no sarcasm in the statement. He arrives at a conclusion about Rhaegar, based on what he knows or concludes about him. Absolutely nothing points toward sarcasm, this is your wishful thinking to change the meaning of the phrase.

Your general statement has nothing to do with examples of particular characters. By insisting that Robert deflowered Lyanna, you are making him that sort of person who would commit an act that his best friend's family would totally disapprove of and that is NOT turned a blind eye to.

Oh, and as for repeated claim that Lyanna agreed with sex from the getgo: No, she didn't. You are inserting here modern concepts of relationship. In Lyanna's society and social rank, an agreement to betrothal was not consent to sex immediately but AFTER the wedding.

ComplEment all you will, I am much anxious to hear how Ned in the Vale conspired with Lyanna at HH at the closest, and how come we don't see him showing any guilt over the deaths of his father and brother or letting Robert kill Rhaegar for no reason. Just don't forget to label it properly as "fanfiction".

1. I think we got how unhappy Robert was about Cersie from the moment he was bitching about her and the wheelhouse.I also think the "Others take my wife" was a dead give away.No Ygrain the man was taken a back by that.It simple logic.If every woman drops her panties for you and your own wife won't you'd be wondering "what the frack to." And that again takes critical thinking if rejection was something Robert got before it really wouldn't be a big deal what Cersie does...

2. Yes there is a ship named Cersie,but Robert didn't name it.

3.To the part i bolded i scratched them out to emphasize how much of a mute point this is and no point you have. Ygrain it doesn't matter why these men slept with their women before marriage.They did which is the end result the undisputable point.There is always a reason why sex happens THAT IS THE POINT.

Be it honor,selfishness,i got hurt and i thought i might die,some deluded sense of i need to do this else the Wildlings will think i'm still a crow but secretly if i squint this way this red headed chick really didgs me and she's really really wants me to eff her or 200,000 years of freaking human nature....

Jon is the one that have that sense of restiction on him when it comes to honor but he still fracked her did!!

Guess what? No law or restriction can temper human nature for long and we will "f**k if the conditions are right.

4. Ygrain the statement by Ned is sarcastic you not being able to see that is your problem not mine.You trying to force a square peg in a round hole is why this assertion by you makes "no sense but nonsense"

5. My general statement is one of common sense and just reading what Lyanna is saying. The point remains and you can't undo that. For Robert to keep to one bed, Lyanna would have to put out and she knew that,that's why the statement was made.Plus that's is a BS statement, really? Modern concept of relationship.Ygrain please think before you say such things.In this culture a woman has pretty much two choices.I put out or get raped.If you like the boy or are just doing this for duty then its all good.

This was the culture underneath the expectation. There's literally dozens of examples in this story that has maidens having sex before they were married.But they still were married off the point is no man would dishonor a lady he considers his by talking about it and saying she was deflowered before etc.Societal expectaion didn't and doesn't stop that...Just look at Harwin's quote in full. Blood was running hot spring was in the air and boom.

 

6.To the bolded they should have thought of that before they made a match with Robert don't you think? Again a nonsense arguement.Robert's libido was well known.Ned knew it,Lyanna knew it and you bet Rickard knew it.Lyanna's maidenhead bought them alliance with a Stormlord. Furthermore,you should make statements that you have no proof of.You have no idea what Lyanna's family would or wouldn't approve of.

7.Don't worry when i do write it my fanfic will be a better job than pitching some BS like sayyyy Lyanna and Rhaegar conspired to meet near Harrenhal after a year,ran off and got married.

Sorry my friend your "counters" a good for firewood and not much else.

[Wall Flower]

Most of the people cited as having pre-marital sex were betrothed to other people or pledged to an institution. Jon was vowed to the Night's Watch when he slept with Ygritte, Robb to a Frey girl when he had sex with Jeyne Westerling, Brandon Stark to Cat when he deflowered Lady Barbery, etc. That would suggest that sex often happened in illicit relationships where love or desire conflicted with duty. Arranged marriages were generally about duty, not desire, unless you were lucky enough to be in a position to please yourself, like young Lord Baratheon. Lyanna wasn't in that position, her betrothal to Robert was arranged by her father and her conversation with Ned doesn't suggest that it was favourably received by her.

Rhaegar and Lyanna disappearing together isn't fanfic, it's what every-one in universe thinks happened (whether by consent or abduction).

[wolfmaid7]

Most of the people cited as having pre-marital sex were betrothed to other people or pledged to an institution. Jon was vowed to the Night's Watch when he slept with Ygritte, Robb to a Frey girl when he had sex with Jeyne Westerling, Brandon Stark to Cat when he deflowered Lady Barbery, etc. That would suggest that sex often happened in illicit relationships where love or desire conflicted with duty. Arranged marriages were generally about duty, not desire, unless you were lucky enough to be in a position to please yourself, like young Lord Baratheon. Lyanna wasn't in that position, her betrothal to Robert was arranged by her father and her conversation with Ned doesn't suggest that it was favourably received by her.

Rhaegar and Lyanna disappearing together isn't fanfic, it's what every-one in universe thinks happened (whether by consent or abduction).

Lyanna expressed her belief that Robert would cheat on her.She said nothing about not wanting to marry Robert.That was her only issue.An issue that she verbalized the night she found out she was to marry him.There was time enough for Robert to sink or swim and her feelings would be validated or not.

Rhaegar and Lyanna disappearing together is fanfic everyone inverse thinks he kidnapped her.

Brandon and LB were banging before Cat to be accurate and to repeat why these people did it don't matter the fact is it happens and it happens because it will always be something.

If you want to make a point about sex happening where love or desire conflicts with duty. As a noble woman like all the others who succumbed to human desires it was an expectation by society that she have sex on her wedding night......She didn't

 

[Ygrain]

1. I think we got how unhappy Robert was about Cersie from the moment he was bitching about her and the wheelhouse.I also think the "Others take my wife" was a dead give away.No Ygrain the man was taken a back by that.It simple logic.If every woman drops her panties for you and your own wife won't you'd be wondering "what the frack to." And that again takes critical thinking if rejection was something Robert got before it really wouldn't be a big deal what Cersie does...

For an umpteenth time: women were dropping their nonexistent pants when Robert showed interest. Like a spoiled brat: I ask, I get - WUT, no getting? But for this reaction, there must be asking first.

3.To the part i bolded i scratched them out to emphasize how much of a mute point this is and no point you have. Ygrain it doesn't matter why these men slept with their women before marriage.They did which is the end result the undisputable point.There is always a reason why sex happens THAT IS THE POINT.

Sheesh, of course it does matter! Motives always matter, and so does situation and society. Sex happens, and there are also reasons why sex DOESN'T happen.

i got hurt and i thought i might die

Dead wrong. The comfort sex happened after Robb received the news after the presumed deaths of Bran and Rickon.

some deluded sense of i need to do this else the Wildlings will think i'm still a crow but secretly if i squint this way this red headed chick really didgs me and she's really really wants me to eff her or 200,000 years of freaking human nature....

Deluded? Have you been reading the same books? Everything it takes, Jon Snow. Did it somehow escape you that Mance found out that Jon had been lying to him and that Ygritte stepped in with a lie that saved Jon's life at that moment? If Jon was killed, the mission wouldn't be completed. And yes, he found out he thoroughly enjoyed breaking his vows with her, but if not for the initial coercion, he wouldn't have. Just like Ned, who never cheated on Cat.

Jon is the one that have that sense of restiction on him when it comes to honor but he still fracked her did!!

No, Jon is not the only one. Robb was betrothed and he shouldn't have deflowered Jeyne, which is why he married her ASAP to do right by her. You ignoring these conditions doesn't change them.

 

Guess what? No law or restriction can temper human nature for long and we will "f**k if the conditions are right.

It must be a great surprise for you then that both in RL and in Westeros, there are still people who take their vows and duties seriously. Ask Ned.

 

4. Ygrain the statement by Ned is sarcastic you not being able to see that is your problem not mine.You trying to force a square peg in a round hole is why this assertion by you makes "no sense but nonsense"

Wolfmaid, the burden of proof is with you. You are the sole person in this forum whom I have ever seen to claim that the sentence is sarcastic. Please, state your reasons for this interpretation, and provide quotes to show when Ned is being sarcastic.

5. My general statement is one of common sense and just reading what Lyanna is saying. The point remains and you can't undo that. For Robert to keep to one bed, Lyanna would have to put out and she knew that,that's why the statement was made.Plus that's is a BS statement, really? Modern concept of relationship.Ygrain please think before you say such things.In this culture a woman has pretty much two choices.I put out or get raped.If you like the boy or are just doing this for duty then its all good.

Yes. Modern concept of relationship. In which people engage in sexual activities whenever they feel like it and there are no social restrictions on when it is supposed to be appropriate. There were zero expectations for Lyanna to engage in sex with her betrothed. There were zero expectations for Robert to expect that from her.

Please, show us where Brandon made a move on Cat, or that Robert wanted to shag Cersei before their wedding night

BTW, how do you suggest that Robert maintained the sexual relationship with Lyanna when she wasn't around after HH? Again, not a modern relationship, so there is no way a betrothed girl could go for a visit to her betrothed. Robert had never been to Winterfell, so how did Lyanna keep her bed the only one when she wasn't available? For a man like Robert, sex is the same need like food, drink and physical exercise, but you expect him to abstain just because Lyanna is unavailable for weeks/months? Really?

This was the culture underneath the expectation. There's literally dozens of examples in this story that has maidens having sex before they were married.But they still were married off the point is no man would dishonor a lady he considers his by talking about it and saying she was deflowered before etc.Societal expectaion didn't and doesn't stop that...Just look at Harwin's quote in full. Blood was running hot spring was in the air and boom.

And the story makes it abundantly clear that the woman is considered soiled even if nobody knows about it. 

Harwin is not the same social layer, and his statement is all concerned with Ned not soiling his honour while not giving a fig about Ashara's... but he is talking to Ned's daughter and some Dornish lady is of no interest to him.. 

BTW, remember what happened to Ashara? She was dishonoured. Nobody talked, but the condition showed. Dishonour is not just a concept, it is dire consequences for the woman if it becomes known in any way and her family doesn't have enough pressure to find her a suitable husband, like Hoster did with Lysa.

Plus, another consequence. Let's say that a betrothed girl gets pregnant with her man long before the date of the marriage. With commonfolk, no problem. With nobles, a huge one. Even if you make a very hasty wedding, people can still count to nine. Being born only six months after the wedding will automatically make everyone doubt the child's legitimacy because there is no way to prove that it is actually the lord's. Meaning, a younger sibling, conceived and born appropriately, may have a huge leverage for destabilizing the succession line, and that's not what you want to happen to your House. That's why there was such a huge pressure on girls to be maidens on their wedding night, so that the legitimacy of their children could not be questioned.

6.To the bolded they should have thought of that before they made a match with Robert don't you think? Again a nonsense arguement.Robert's libido was well known.Ned knew it,Lyanna knew it and you bet Rickard knew it.Lyanna's maidenhead bought them alliance with a Stormlord. 

WUT?!  You mean that Rickard was OK with his daughter being banged before the marriage? You can't be serious.

And, no, Ned didn't know it. You stated yourself that Ned never knew about Robert and Lyanna banging, so when Ned assures Lyanna that Robert will change his behaviour after the betrothal, he doesn't expect Robert to sleep with Lyanna instead of sleeping around.

 

Furthermore,you should make statements that you have no proof of. You have no idea what Lyanna's family would or wouldn't approve of.

Funny of you to say so. Please, show us a single example of a lord approving of his daughter having sex with her betrothed.

And please, leave Barbrey out of this, because this is the case of sex as a bait for making Brandon her betrothed.

Rhaegar and Lyanna disappearing together is fanfic everyone inverse thinks he kidnapped her.

Author's own work cannot be labelled as fanfic, no matter if the information is correct or not.

[Ygrain]

Don't worry when i do write it my fanfic will be a better job than pitching some BS like sayyyy Lyanna and Rhaegar conspired to meet near Harrenhal after a year,ran off and got married.

So, you will drop the Whent connection to both Rhaegar as well as the Tullys, the convenient location of weirwoods in the South and the like. Okay.

BTW, you still owe us that part about Ned's involvement in Lyanna's disappearance.

[Wall Flower]

Cat was betrothed to Brandon when she was only 12 and Brandon would have been about 15, so I think he was definitely having sex with Lady B during his betrothal. We know he wasn't having sex with Cat as she was a virgin when she married Ned (despite Littlefinger's less than classy boasting).

WRT Rhaegar and Lyanna, I only meant that there were certainly seen as being together whether by consent or otherwise. Only Robert and Bran specifically refer to rape.

I guess my point was that the narrative of love versus duty seems to better reflect an illicit relationship between Rhaegar and Lyanna (who were each pledged to other people) that Robert and Lyanna simply pre-empting an officially approved relationship. Why not just move the marriage forward when her pregnancy became apparent?

Lyanna and Robert are obviously literary creations not real people. I always took the fact that Lyanna was expressing doubts on the very night of her betrothal as a clue to her view of the match rather than an opinion she outgrew. It was always particularly noticeable to me that Ned talks a lot about Robert - how much he loves Lyanna, what a good husband he'll be - but nothing at all about Lyanna's feelings. In the world of Westeros, i don't think that Lyanna's feelings mattered in the arranging of her marriage - except perhaps to her.

 

 

[Black Crow]

Only Robert and Bran specifically refer to rape.

 

Strictly speaking yes, but as Bran wasn't around at the time somebody must have told him the tale.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

1. Erm Barristan's experiance is his experiance.His mistake is his mistake so to superimpose that on another and call that fact is not the way to go.The elements and circimstances are different. We have to look at the individual tale and judge it. I don't know where you got the idea that Viserys is mixing up events from because he isn't.He is simply retelling an event.And the author has given us clues about the event that he remembers. 

a.They fled KL as the usurper's army was advancing- Overall interp they got the hell outta dodge.

b.They left at night via a ship with black sails.

RT that is the basics we need to know that's something that is descriptive to the minimum and leaves no room for mistakes.

You are still not getting the point and it really is a matter of critical thinking to be honest.

The information that was released or spread was that:

a. The queen and Viserys were packed and sent to Dragonstone.

So far so good.We are on the same page there.Everyone thought they were going to DS.Even the rebels.

Common sense now . If you have a fleet of your own you do not use a pirate ship to smuggle your queen and heir to a place you broadcasted that you were going to and the place is also the first location anyone will look.Just use your own ship.

2. Jamie's accounts

a. The time period in between when he heard "Rhaella" screaming and the morning she left can't be determined.

b. He did not see the Queen he saw a figure cloaked and hooded and assumed it was her ging to DS.You all can't talk yourself out of that.

c.Viserys was not there that is an important ommission that a sensible person reading this series should pay attention to.

To your other point about what Viserys may or may not have told Dany.First off its even worse if the evidence is coming from her.I don't know how you can even use that.Seriously,wouldn't that make you question it more coming from someone whose vocabulary at the time might have been no more extensive than " goo goo ga ga?"

Dany said when looking back not to fondly of Viserys death and just thinking about him that it was him that provided the info for her backstory.I will look for that quote.

I'm sorry but these counters have nothing there.

I'm not superimposing anything.. I'm showing you that someone can mix up his memories and relive them in his mind as if they were one and the same event.. And if one person can do it, we can at least consider that another might have done so as well.

You are forgetting that Viserys was Daenerys's main source of info. Whether he remembered everything in the correct order in which it happened years and years later is one thing, but he would have remembered being crowned King (on Dragonstone), he will have remembered being with his mother, he will have remembered the castle he was staying at, and he will have remembered the fleet, and the garrison etc. 

And again, Jaime was describing Rhaella and Aerys's relationship, and how Rhaella suffered (paragraph 1), followed by the results of Aerys's treatment (paragraph 2, when she was leaving Dragonstone). Mentioning Viserys there, whether he was there or not, would be out of place.

Jaime doesn't mention Darry leaving for Dragonstone, yet we know he went with them. That Jaime doesn't mention him doesn't mean he didn't went. Same for Viserys.

Though Viserys wasn't her only source of info. For the first five years of her life, she had Darry to telll her stuff, as well. There would only be little of that time that she might still recall, but that doesn't mean that he didn't tell her anything, or that she never asked him either.

There is only one confirmed error in the tale. Viserys's age. Either Dany misremembers his age, which is possible, or the tale she was told was incorrect. So then, either Viserys would have told it wrong on purpose (possible, not that unlikely, but at the same time, perhaps unnecessary), or accidentally (equally possible, imo). And since so many of the elements of the story fit the flight from Dragonstone, it would be an easy solution, which requires so little, and fits nicely with the text. Unlike theories where Dany is not who she thinks she is, simply because she had a lemon tree under her window.