Heresy Project X+Y=J: Robert + Lyanna

[wolfmaid7]

 Oh my gosh i just lost my entire reply

For an umpteenth time: women were dropping their nonexistent pants when Robert showed interest. Like a spoiled brat: I ask, I get - WUT, no getting? But for this reaction, there must be asking first.

Sheesh, of course it does matter! Motives always matter, and so does situation and society. Sex happens, and there are also reasons why sex DOESN'T happen.

Dead wrong. The comfort sex happened after Robb received the news after the presumed deaths of Bran and Rickon.

Deluded? Have you been reading the same books? Everything it takes, Jon Snow. Did it somehow escape you that Mance found out that Jon had been lying to him and that Ygritte stepped in with a lie that saved Jon's life at that moment? If Jon was killed, the mission wouldn't be completed. And yes, he found out he thoroughly enjoyed breaking his vows with her, but if not for the initial coercion, he wouldn't have. Just like Ned, who never cheated on Cat.

No, Jon is not the only one. Robb was betrothed and he shouldn't have deflowered Jeyne, which is why he married her ASAP to do right by her. You ignoring these conditions doesn't change them.

 

It must be a great surprise for you then that both in RL and in Westeros, there are still people who take their vows and duties seriously. Ask Ned.

 

Wolfmaid, the burden of proof is with you. You are the sole person in this forum whom I have ever seen to claim that the sentence is sarcastic. Please, state your reasons for this interpretation, and provide quotes to show when Ned is being sarcastic.

Yes. Modern concept of relationship. In which people engage in sexual activities whenever they feel like it and there are no social restrictions on when it is supposed to be appropriate. There were zero expectations for Lyanna to engage in sex with her betrothed. There were zero expectations for Robert to expect that from her.

Please, show us where Brandon made a move on Cat, or that Robert wanted to shag Cersei before their wedding night

BTW, how do you suggest that Robert maintained the sexual relationship with Lyanna when she wasn't around after HH? Again, not a modern relationship, so there is no way a betrothed girl could go for a visit to her betrothed. Robert had never been to Winterfell, so how did Lyanna keep her bed the only one when she wasn't available? For a man like Robert, sex is the same need like food, drink and physical exercise, but you expect him to abstain just because Lyanna is unavailable for weeks/months? Really?

And the story makes it abundantly clear that the woman is considered soiled even if nobody knows about it. 

Harwin is not the same social layer, and his statement is all concerned with Ned not soiling his honour while not giving a fig about Ashara's... but he is talking to Ned's daughter and some Dornish lady is of no interest to him.. 

BTW, remember what happened to Ashara? She was dishonoured. Nobody talked, but the condition showed. Dishonour is not just a concept, it is dire consequences for the woman if it becomes known in any way and her family doesn't have enough pressure to find her a suitable husband, like Hoster did with Lysa.

Plus, another consequence. Let's say that a betrothed girl gets pregnant with her man long before the date of the marriage. With commonfolk, no problem. With nobles, a huge one. Even if you make a very hasty wedding, people can still count to nine. Being born only six months after the wedding will automatically make everyone doubt the child's legitimacy because there is no way to prove that it is actually the lord's. Meaning, a younger sibling, conceived and born appropriately, may have a huge leverage for destabilizing the succession line, and that's not what you want to happen to your House. That's why there was such a huge pressure on girls to be maidens on their wedding night, so that the legitimacy of their children could not be questioned.

WUT?!  You mean that Rickard was OK with his daughter being banged before the marriage? You can't be serious.

And, no, Ned didn't know it. You stated yourself that Ned never knew about Robert and Lyanna banging, so when Ned assures Lyanna that Robert will change his behaviour after the betrothal, he doesn't expect Robert to sleep with Lyanna instead of sleeping around.

 

Funny of you to say so. Please, show us a single example of a lord approving of his daughter having sex with her betrothed.

And please, leave Barbrey out of this, because this is the case of sex as a bait for making Brandon her betrothed.

 

Author's own work cannot be labelled as fanfic, no matter if the information is correct or not.

I have no energy to rewrite this long thingSo i'll stick to two points i made ,short and sweet.

Ygrain your entire argument is null and void because you are thinking from the wrong pov hence the reason you keep bringing up what Ned,Rickard and Brandon would think.This is illogical.

1. Robert and Lyanna would not "speak" about what they were doing to anyone it is ridiculous and goes against the culture of a man of this time towards any woman he deemed 'his lady'.It would be equally ridiculous to assume that Ned would ask Robert or Lyanna about what they might be doing.He would dishonor her by doing that.He knew but he would never ask her about it.

2. What you are saying and have said is that Robert wouldn't sleep with Lyanna because of what her family would think ( assertion made null and void by the above) but somehow he wouldn't think about this with respect to cheating on her??? Again your arguement is like a Neutron star.

3. It doesn't matter why sex happen there's always going to be a reason for it .A ehem situation or environment is always present for human instinct to kick in.

4. I never said Robert and Lyanna continued sleeping together after the Tourney.I don't know where Robert went? Stormlands,Vale you take your pick.But he was in the Vale when Arryn called his banners.

5. Lyanna and Rhaegar running away "together" is fanfic.

So, you will drop the Whent connection to both Rhaegar as well as the Tullys, the convenient location of weirwoods in the South and the like. Okay.

BTW, you still owe us that part about Ned's involvement in Lyanna's disappearance.

First part i don't know what your talking about.

Second i actually don't "owe" you or anyone anything of the like it is a piece that is another interpretation of events that have nothing to do with "who" Jon's parents are but will provide insights into her death as i see it.A poster asked my thoughts on it and i'm choosing to answer.

Cat was betrothed to Brandon when she was only 12 and Brandon would have been about 15, so I think he was definitely having sex with Lady B during his betrothal. We know he wasn't having sex with Cat as she was a virgin when she married Ned (despite Littlefinger's less than classy boasting).

WRT Rhaegar and Lyanna, I only meant that there were certainly seen as being together whether by consent or otherwise. Only Robert and Bran specifically refer to rape.

I guess my point was that the narrative of love versus duty seems to better reflect an illicit relationship between Rhaegar and Lyanna (who were each pledged to other people) that Robert and Lyanna simply pre-empting an officially approved relationship. Why not just move the marriage forward when her pregnancy became apparent?

Lyanna and Robert are obviously literary creations not real people. I always took the fact that Lyanna was expressing doubts on the very night of her betrothal as a clue to her view of the match rather than an opinion she outgrew. It was always particularly noticeable to me that Ned talks a lot about Robert - how much he loves Lyanna, what a good husband he'll be - but nothing at all about Lyanna's feelings. In the world of Westeros, i don't think that Lyanna's feelings mattered in the arranging of her marriage - except perhaps to her.

 

 

I'll take the second point first because it is an excellent question and the answer lay in what GRRM tells us time and time again.Let's look at one of the connotations of the Bael story which is also echoed in the experiance of Daeron the singer.Both Lord Stark and Lord Rowan's daughter were very complicit in not only getting themselves shagged but in their choices after,bad choices.It was all about self preservation.Girls brought up in a culture that hold chasteness until marriage in high esteem and this is a shackle put on them by authority figures.

1. Daeron's girl when caught chose to name it rape than face the music.

2. LS daughter bolted she just had the extra headache of her being preggers.

Young girls who did stupid things when scared and a lot of people got hurt resulted when people tell a lie and not the truth. Those who have ears listen.

What might Lyanna's reaction to being preggers be? Is she going to think about it logically and say well the marriage can be moved up or is she going to think....What is daddy going to do? What is everyone going to think.I acted badly.

3. There is no text wrong or right that indicates that anyone thought Lyanna was complicit in any supposed abduction.

I'm not superimposing anything.. I'm showing you that someone can mix up his memories and relive them in his mind as if they were one and the same event.. And if one person can do it, we can at least consider that another might have done so as well.

You are forgetting that Viserys was Daenerys's main source of info. Whether he remembered everything in the correct order in which it happened years and years later is one thing, but he would have remembered being crowned King (on Dragonstone), he will have remembered being with his mother, he will have remembered the castle he was staying at, and he will have remembered the fleet, and the garrison etc. 

And again, Jaime was describing Rhaella and Aerys's relationship, and how Rhaella suffered (paragraph 1), followed by the results of Aerys's treatment (paragraph 2, when she was leaving Dragonstone). Mentioning Viserys there, whether he was there or not, would be out of place.

Jaime doesn't mention Darry leaving for Dragonstone, yet we know he went with them. That Jaime doesn't mention him doesn't mean he didn't went. Same for Viserys.

Though Viserys wasn't her only source of info. For the first five years of her life, she had Darry to telll her stuff, as well. There would only be little of that time that she might still recall, but that doesn't mean that he didn't tell her anything, or that she never asked him either.

There is only one confirmed error in the tale. Viserys's age. Either Dany misremembers his age, which is possible, or the tale she was told was incorrect. So then, either Viserys would have told it wrong on purpose (possible, not that unlikely, but at the same time, perhaps unnecessary), or accidentally (equally possible, imo). And since so many of the elements of the story fit the flight from Dragonstone, it would be an easy solution, which requires so little, and fits nicely with the text. Unlike theories where Dany is not who she thinks she is, simply because she had a lemon tree under her window.

RT ofcourse anyone can mix up memories that is a given that is why it is up to us the readers to see through the BS.GRRM has been telling us this through the whole series in different ways and the most profound is through Syrio's story to Arya. We have to use our senses people lie but tangible things don't.Viserys and Dany could have several flaws in their memories but the author has given us the things that can be measured to determine if its BS or not. 

His memories are part fanciful but there is truth and fact there and again i don't know how you can put up opposition against this while using the very same material you call flawed as fact in favor of Dany's current origin story.This is how you guys reasoning is flawed 1+ 1 is not 5.

Look the entire Jamie was thinking about Aerys and Rhaella's relationship is a mute point because it does'nt change fact.Jamie didn't see Rhaella he expected to see the Queen and that was the conclusion he drew but he didn't see her. He saw a cloaked and hooded figure and assumed it was Rhaella.You can try to talk around that but that is a fact.

RT do you know how many possibilities exist? And everyone one of them could happen but we aren't psychic GRRM knows that we can't stew around in the pool of possibilities.That is why GRRM chooses certain people to relay certain info by.

1. Ned could have told the other kids about Robert but the author chose Jon to reveal that through and make it specific to him(Jon) Robert centric void of Ned's own exploits.He who also kicked ass during RR.

2. Dany could have heard stories from Darry but the author chose to make sure Viserys is pinpointed as the source

 

[Ygrain]

1. Robert and Lyanna would not "speak" about what they were doing to anyone it is ridiculous and goes against the culture of a man of this time towards any woman he deemed 'his lady'.It would be equally ridiculous to assume that Ned would ask Robert or Lyanna about what they might be doing.He would dishonor her by doing that.He knew but he would never ask her about it.

And it is equally ridiculous to think that they would think that shagging is alright as long as they don't tell anyone. Compare Arys shagging Arianne - he knows that he has soiled himself, even though he never told anyone, and is concerned about her honour. That's why I brought up the example with murder which you didn't grasp - murder is murder even if you don't tell anyone, and that's why most people don't go around murdering anyone they dislike, because they know that murder is wrong, fullstop.

2. What you are saying and have said is that Robert wouldn't sleep with Lyanna because of what her family would think ( assertion made null and void by the above) but somehow he wouldn't think about this with respect to cheating on her??? Again your arguement is like a Neutron star.

In case it escaped you, those are two different things. Deflowering a maiden is a huge offense to her family. Sleeping around with commonborn girls won't make her family happy but it's what almost everyone does.

3. It doesn't matter why sex happen there's always going to be a reason .A situation or environment is always present for human instinct to kick in.

And surprisingly, there are people whose head rules their pants. That's what makes people different from animals.

4. I never said Robert and Lyanna continued sleeping together after the Tourney.I don't know where Robert went? Stormlands,Vale you take your pick.But he was in the Vale when Arryn called his banners.

So, you want us believe that Robert had a sexual relationship with Lyanna for a couple of days, and that made him stick to Lyanna's bed for, how long?

You do realize that this goes against your own argument that if you are not sleeping with your man, someone else is? Because in all those months they are apart, Lyanna is NOT sleeping with her man. In other words, even if this girl of not even fifteen made a pragmatic decision to bind her betrothed to herself by offering him the sexual pleasure of her own bed, the move would be totally useless because she wouldn't be able to continue the relationship for a prolonged period of time during which he would sate his sexual needs elsewhere. I really doubt that Robert would be satisfied with sex on the ravenmail.

 

5. Lyanna and Rhaegar running away "together" is fanfic.

Based on clues from the text, just like your own fanfiction of Robert and Lyanna sleeping together. Pot, meet kettle. Except, "wolfblood leading Lyanna to an early grave" is stated in the books black on white.

First part i don't know what your talking about.

That when you write fanfiction, you should stick to canon information. But, since you are writing AU, no biggie. I'm sure that you will come up with some explanation what Lyanna was doing ten miles from HH, even though it is NOT on the way to Riverrun to Brandon's wedding.

Second i actually don't "owe" you or anyone anything of the like it is a piece that is another interpretation of events that have nothing to do with "who" Jon's parents are but will provide insights into her death as i see it.A poster asked my thoughts on it and i'm choosing to answer.

Yes, you do owe us. It's insufficient to say "I think that Robert and Lyanna are the parents", you need to explain how it fits the information from the books, like the whole Rhaegar mess and the like.

And since so many of the elements of the story fit the flight from Dragonstone, it would be an easy solution, which requires so little, and fits nicely with the text. Unlike theories where Dany is not who she thinks she is, simply because she had a lemon tree under her window.

To which there is also an easy explanation aka "gardens of the mighty", possibly even the Sealord himself.

[SFDanny]

""R"'+L =J

By  Wolfmaid7

 

 

 

  Quote

“Robert will never keep to one bed,” Lyanna had told him at Winterfell, on the night long ago when their father had promised her hand to the young Lord of Storm’s End. “<snip>, but he assured her that what Robert did before their betrothal was of no matter, that he was a good man and true who would love her with all his heart. Lyanna had only smiled. “Love is sweet, dearest Ned, but it cannot change a man’s nature.”--GoT, pg. 379.

 

     

 

 

I wanted to point out the "snip" in your quote here, Wolfmaid. The quote should read this way,

"Robert will never keep to one bed," Lyanna had told him at Winterfell, on the night long ago when their father had promised her hand to the young Lord of Storm's End. "I hear he has gotten a child on some girl in the Vale." Ned had held the babe in his arms; he could scarcely deny her, nor would he lie to his sister, but he had assured her that what Robert did before their betrothal was of no matter, that he was a good man and true who would love her with all his heart. Lyanna only smiled. "Love is sweet, dearest Ned, but it cannot change a man's nature." (AGoT 318 US Hardback edition) bold emphasis added

The bolded part is what you decided to leave out in your distorted reading of the paragraph. I can't help but note that the part you left out helps strengthen the traditional reading of the text, and by that I mean by everyone but you. There is no wink, wink, nudge, nudge going on here. Ned is saying he wouldn't lie to his sister about what Robert will do as a husband, nor deny a baby he knew was a reality, and Lyanna tells him he is wrong about his friend. And she has the right of it. Robert never changes, and contrary to your assertions the author has given us Gendry and Bella to make sure we know he never changes. There is no "well, I had better get him into my bed now" on Lyanna's part, and Ned would be shocked to hear such a plan from his little sister. The fact she calls Robert by his first name probably does mean the two know each other, but it does not suggest a romantic relationship at all.

Of course no matter how much you distort the text here doesn't change the simple fact Lyanna is gone from any place she could reasonably meet with Robert during the time period Jon is conceived. This theory defines crackpot. It is fantasy, so why don't we just assume Robert has some special magical powers by which he can impregnate women over long distances. After all we know, "the seed is strong."

[Ygrain]

 

The fact she calls Robert by his first name probably does mean the two know each other, but it does not suggest a romantic relationship at all.

You have reminded me about my brother's friends when I was a teen (he is eight years older). I referred to them by their first names even though I barely knew them, I guess because that was how he talked about them.

Of course no matter how much you distort the text here doesn't change the simple fact Lyanna is gone from any place she could reasonably meet with Robert during the time period Jon is conceived. This theory defines crackpot. It is fantasy, so why don't we just assume Robert has some special magical powers by which he can impregnate women over long distances. After all we know, "the seed is strong."

She claims that Lyanna got pregnant at Harrenhal and that Jon was born way earlier than is usuall assumed, because Dany is not who she is and hence the 8-9 months period between their births refers to some other dates.

Somewhere along the ways, the logistic issues of this scenario got lost, and we need explanations for a lot of other connected issues, like:

- how Rhaegar became involved in the whole "abduction" mess

- where was Lyanna after HH and how she concealed her pregnancy

- where and how Lyanna disappeared if not with Rhaegar and why she never informed her family

- why the Starks thought that Rhaegar was responsible

- why Lyanna never returned to her family

- why Lyanna never informed Robert

- where Jon was the whole time and how he could be reasonably passed off for younger than Robb when he was way older

- who fathered that other child from Lyanna's "bed of blood" and what happened with it (and if there was even a time window that allowed for another conception so shortly after her first pregnancy)

And then there are, of course, issues connected to GRRM's way of writing, like the info dumps on a fourteen years old prince who never had any connection to any current major character, why Lyanna keeps being depicted with blue roses which have no connection to her child or lover, what's so crucial about Jon's parentage that is has to be kept not only from the book characters but from the readers, as well, and what is the payoff of him being Robert's illegitimate son when it gives him no special background (no "ice and fire", no claim to the throne), or what is the point of establishing Westerosi "genetics" that makes all of Robert's bastards look like him but have Jon look like Lyanna, and the like.

[wolfmaid7]

And it is equally ridiculous to think that they would think that shagging is alright as long as they don't tell anyone. Compare Arys shagging Arianne - he knows that he has soiled himself, even though he never told anyone, and is concerned about her honour. That's why I brought up the example with murder which you didn't grasp - murder is murder even if you don't tell anyone, and that's why most people don't go around murdering anyone they dislike, because they know that murder is wrong, fullstop.

In case it escaped you, those are two different things. Deflowering a maiden is a huge offense to her family. Sleeping around with commonborn girls won't make her family happy but it's what almost everyone does.

And surprisingly, there are people whose head rules their pants. That's what makes people different from animals.

So, you want us believe that Robert had a sexual relationship with Lyanna for a couple of days, and that made him stick to Lyanna's bed for, how long?

You do realize that this goes against your own argument that if you are not sleeping with your man, someone else is? Because in all those months they are apart, Lyanna is NOT sleeping with her man. In other words, even if this girl of not even fifteen made a pragmatic decision to bind her betrothed to herself by offering him the sexual pleasure of her own bed, the move would be totally useless because she wouldn't be able to continue the relationship for a prolonged period of time during which he would sate his sexual needs elsewhere. I really doubt that Robert would be satisfied with sex on the ravenmail.

 

 

Based on clues from the text, just like your own fanfiction of Robert and Lyanna sleeping together. Pot, meet kettle. Except, "wolfblood leading Lyanna to an early grave" is stated in the books black on white.

That when you write fanfiction, you should stick to canon information. But, since you are writing AU, no biggie. I'm sure that you will come up with some explanation what Lyanna was doing ten miles from HH, even though it is NOT on the way to Riverrun to Brandon's wedding.

Yes, you do owe us. It's insufficient to say "I think that Robert and Lyanna are the parents", you need to explain how it fits the information from the books, like the whole Rhaegar mess and the like.

 

To which there is also an easy explanation aka "gardens of the mighty", possibly even the Sealord himself.

 

I wanted to point out the "snip" in your quote here, Wolfmaid. The quote should read this way,

The bolded part is what you decided to leave out in your distorted reading of the paragraph. I can't help but note that the part you left out helps strengthen the traditional reading of the text, and by that I mean by everyone but you. There is no wink, wink, nudge, nudge going on here. Ned is saying he wouldn't lie to his sister about what Robert will do as a husband, nor deny a baby he knew was a reality, and Lyanna tells him he is wrong about his friend. And she has the right of it. Robert never changes, and contrary to your assertions the author has given us Gendry and Bella to make sure we know he never changes. There is no "well, I had better get him into my bed now" on Lyanna's part, and Ned would be shocked to hear such a plan from his little sister. The fact she calls Robert by his first name probably does mean the two know each other, but it does not suggest a romantic relationship at all.

Of course no matter how much you distort the text here doesn't change the simple fact Lyanna is gone from any place she could reasonably meet with Robert during the time period Jon is conceived. This theory defines crackpot. It is fantasy, so why don't we just assume Robert has some special magical powers by which he can impregnate women over long distances. After all we know, "the seed is strong."

SFDanny and Ygrain i will answer your posts more tommorrow night as i will be gone until then, but  as much as you all try you are failing miserably refutting this.Instead you all have chosen to say things that i've never said and leave out things that i did.

We have two competing thoughts here.

1. Lyanna's belief: That Robert despite love will cheat because that's his nature

2. We have Ned's statement that Robert would not only love her but that he will be true to her.

One is wrong and one is correct.

You all have got nothing and you will continue to produce nothing.But with my next post i will be sure of one thing...That both of you will look very bad and i will tell you exactly how i'm going to do it because you all do it all the time.

1. Show how you all distort and misrepresent posters quote.

2. That you have had no evidence at all presented since this essay was posted and it is becoming apparant by now.

3. That your reasoning is very off

Then and hopefully then we can move obn to other aspects of this essay.

[Ygrain]

SFDanny and Ygrain i will answer your posts more tommorrow night as i will be gone until then, but  as much as you all try you are failing miserably refutting this.Instead you all have chosen to say things that i've never said and leave out things that i did.

Try to be brief, please. If you think that you are being misinterpreted, it has a lot to do with your way of writing.

We have two competing thoughts here.

1. Lyanna's belief: That Robert despite love will cheat because that's his nature

2. We have Ned's statement that Robert would not only love her but that he will be true to her.

One is wrong and one is correct.

 

 

Wrong: we have THREE statements:

3. Robert would swear undying love and forget them before evenfall

From Ned, fourteen years after his first statement. Produced on the way from the brothel where he saw another of Robert's bastards.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

His memories are part fanciful but there is truth and fact there and again i don't know how you can put up opposition against this while using the very same material you call flawed as fact in favor of Dany's current origin story.This is how you guys reasoning is flawed 1+ 1 is not 5.

And I take everything from that story as truth until I find something that disproves that. Even though I suspect that the story is made up out of two events that got blended into one memory, I do believe that each of those statements is true.

 

The thing about Daenerys, though, is that her birth was a rather public event. If she was not born on Dragonstone during the storm, why was the fleet there, why did the garrison lie about her having been there, where did Rhaella's body suddenly come from (months after her death?)? All such things.. There are quite some problems with such a theory placing Dany's birth not only at another location, but also at a much earlier time. And meanwhile, the story as we are told is so easily explained, and symbolically as logically fits quite well.

For example...

To which there is also an easy explanation aka "gardens of the mighty", possibly even the Sealord himself.

I'd say a house owned by the Sealord of Braavos, as her memories describe a house, and the Sealord lives in something much larger than a house  But the fact that there was a lemon tree could logically imply that there was someone powerful involved.. Either an indication that the house (had) belonged to someone more powerful, or an indication that someone powerful had visited the house for secret reasons (Oberyn, to sign the contract).

 

 

Look the entire Jamie was thinking about Aerys and Rhaella's relationship is a mute point because it does'nt change fact.Jamie didn't see Rhaella he expected to see the Queen and that was the conclusion he drew but he didn't see her. He saw a cloaked and hooded figure and assumed it was Rhaella.You can try to talk around that but that is a fact.

It is a similar situation as the presenting of the crown of the Queen of Love and Beauty. Ned doesn't mention how Rhaegar gives Lyanna the crown, Yandel does. Does that mean that Ned didn't see it? No, he definitly would have seen it. Yet he doesn't mention it, for whatever reason.

 

My point is, that Jaime doesn't mention Viserys doesn't mean Viserys wasn't there. And that Rhaella had been cloaked doesn't mean she wasn't the person Jaime saw leaving. Especially considering that we don't get a hint that Rhaella was elsewhere.

[wolfmaid7]

1.And it is equally ridiculous to think that they would think that shagging is alright as long as they don't tell anyone. Compare Arys shagging Arianne - he knows that he has soiled himself, even though he never told anyone, and is concerned about her honour. That's why I brought up the example with murder which you didn't grasp - murder is murder even if you don't tell anyone, and that's why most people don't go around murdering anyone they dislike, because they know that murder is wrong, fullstop.

In case it escaped you, those are two different things. Deflowering a maiden is a huge offense to her family. Sleeping around with commonborn girls won't make her family happy but it's what almost everyone does.

And surprisingly, there are people whose head rules their pants. That's what makes people different from animals.

2.So, you want us believe that Robert had a sexual relationship with Lyanna for a couple of days, and that made him stick to Lyanna's bed for, how long?

3.You do realize that this goes against your own argument that if you are not sleeping with your man, someone else is? Because in all those months they are apart, Lyanna is NOT sleeping with her man. In other words, even if this girl of not even fifteen made a pragmatic decision to bind her betrothed to herself by offering him the sexual pleasure of her own bed, the move would be totally useless because she wouldn't be able to continue the relationship for a prolonged period of time during which he would sate his sexual needs elsewhere. I really doubt that Robert would be satisfied with sex on the ravenmail.

 

 

4.Based on clues from the text, just like your own fanfiction of Robert and Lyanna sleeping together. Pot, meet kettle. Except, "wolfblood leading Lyanna to an early grave" is stated in the books black on white.

That when you write fanfiction, you should stick to canon information. But, since you are writing AU, no biggie. I'm sure that you will come up with some explanation what Lyanna was doing ten miles from HH, even though it is NOT on the way to Riverrun to Brandon's wedding.

Yes, you do owe us. It's insufficient to say "I think that Robert and Lyanna are the parents", you need to explain how it fits the information from the books, like the whole Rhaegar mess and the like.

 

To which there is also an easy explanation aka "gardens of the mighty", possibly even the Sealord himself.

There are parts i will strke out because it really doesn't deserve and answer or its logic is already explained.

1.I really wonder if you think about this stuff before you say it.This first point you brought up only validates what i'm saying and it goes hand in hand with what i replied to the poster who brought up the love for duty or desire arguement.Arys no matter how he felt about Arianne's honor STILL DID HER.The consequences for him is that he had to wrestle with  what HE ALREADY did to her compared with his vows.How is this simple thing not sinking in

Its the same thing with Lord Rowin's daughter and Daeron.Daeron had no quams about screwing her but the onus to behave a certain way wasn't on him but her as a Lord's daughter.She knew that she shouldn't be shagging Daeron BUT SHE DID.THAT IS THE POINT.And ofcourse when what happened was revealed she had two choices own up to it and accept punishment or lie.

The Stark maiden same thing i'm 100% sure all that do's and don't went out the window when Bael was stroking the right cord.After it hits you.Its old as time ...Yaweh says don't eat something happens you eat.Then you get hit with the fat that you broke a rule and you hide.Simple as that.

sum: You point doesn't hold water because the text has shown over and over again that right or wrong,vow or no vow,duty or no duty people's desire aren't easily tamed.You don't think about the consequences until after the act is done.

2 No i'm saying as i said before in the essay that Harrenhal is "the thing' that made sex happen.Go back to Harwin's conversation with Arya at his description of the Tourney.The atmosphere people having a good time and lovers hooking up.Think about that in terms of the Grand rite.

3.Ygrain i meant to ask you this because it occured to me why you may not have gotten Ned's quote as sarcasm.I'm only asking this because you're doing that thing again in which you don't seem to grasp tone and phrasing that is common to Americans.The 'if you aint sleeping with you man,then someone is." phrase doesn't have anything to do with if you are separated because one party has duties that take him/her away from you. The foundation lay in parties not doing what Cersie did to Robert and that's witholding.

As i showed Lyanna had no intention from her statement of witholding from Robert . At the tourney would have solidified that for Robert that Lyanna being warm in that area wasn't going to be a problem.

4.Ygrain read the intimacy portion of this essay we have Robert's behavior's to evaluate He is the only person that we can be assured was expressing intimacy as told from him and as told from other's point of view.Including Lyanna i know you all hate to face that fact but its there in black and white. Robert could only keep to one bed if Lyanna had hers on the table and it had nothing to do with her meaning after they were married. Why because Robert is not a patient....His exact words about himself and Ned's exact words about him.

5.This is another example of how you guys don't think things through.If you buy the whole kidnapping tale i was unaware that the WB or the text said anything about what "direction" the 30 leagues lay? Was she ten miles N,S,E,W from Harrenhall.And that you believe that whole common story as is,why your interp has so much holes.Or are you going to tell me that Lyann spent close to a year at Harrenhall after all that crap went down.

 

I wanted to point out the "snip" in your quote here, Wolfmaid. The quote should read this way,

The bolded part is what you decided to leave out in your distorted reading of the paragraph. I can't help but note that the part you left out helps strengthen the traditional reading of the text, and by that I mean by everyone but you. There is no wink, wink, nudge, nudge going on here. Ned is saying he wouldn't lie to his sister about what Robert will do as a husband, nor deny a baby he knew was a reality, and Lyanna tells him he is wrong about his friend.

 

2.And she has the right of it. Robert never changes, and contrary to your assertions the author has given us Gendry and Bella to make sure we know he never changes. There is no "well, I had better get him into my bed now" on Lyanna's part, and Ned would be shocked to hear such a plan from his little sister. 

3.The fact she calls Robert by his first name probably does mean the two know each other, but it does not suggest a romantic relationship at all.

Of course no matter how much you distort the text here doesn't change the simple fact Lyanna is gone from any place she could reasonably meet with Robert during the time period Jon is conceived. This theory defines crackpot. It is fantasy, so why don't we just assume Robert has some special magical powers by which he can impregnate women over long distances. After all we know, "the seed is strong."

1.So lets get to what you are accusing me of. I didn't leave this part out.I left it out in that paragraph because it had nothing to do with what i was pointing out.But i quoted it below because it did have something to do with what i was saying.

Robert will never keep to one bed," Lyanna had told him at Winterfell, on the night long ago when their father had promised her hand to the young Lord of Storm's End. "I hear he has gotten a child on some girl in the Vale." Ned had held the babe in his arms; he could scarcely deny her, nor would he lie to his sister, but he had assured her that what Robert did before their betrothal was of no matter, that he was a good man and true who would love her with all his heart."

The bolded red part in context shows that Ned is simply not going to deny his sister or lie to her about the girl and the baby in the Vale SFDanny.Something made absolutely clear by the blue bolded as well.

2.Gendry was never Lyanna's problem he probably wasn't even Cersie's and Bella isn't Robert's if you had paid attention you might have gotten that.

This is where you misrepresent quotes. I said that Lyanna calling Robert by his first name meant she knew him.There are different levels of intimacy.In the intamacy section did you see me use that? No why because it had nothing to do with sex.

3. And lastly your timleine that you all are so attached to re: Jon IS WRONG because Dany wasn't born when you all or she thinks she is.As i've shown and something you all can't get around.....It wasn't Rhaella Jamie saw.

 

As i said you all don't have anything to bring against this and this is just a sprinkle of why you all are wrong.

[Pancakes1800]

I still don't understand why Dany was lied to about her birth.  Assuming that Dany is the daughter of Rhaella and Aerys(which she is) then why does it matter when and where she is born?

[J. Stargaryen]

I still don't understand why Dany was lied to about her birth. Assuming that Dany is the daughter of Rhaella and Aerys(which she is) then why does it matter when and where she is born?

Because she needs to have been in order for this theory to work.

[Ygrain]

There are parts i will strke out because it really doesn't deserve and answer or its logic is already explained.

1.I really wonder if you think about this stuff before you say it.This first point you brought up only validates what i'm saying and it goes hand in hand with what i replied to the poster who brought up the love for duty or desire arguement.Arys no matter how he felt about Arianne's honor STILL DID HER.The consequences for him is that he had to wrestle with  what HE ALREADY did to her compared with his vows.How is this simple thing not sinking in

Sigh. 

Yes, people often do things they are not supposed to do. And when they do it, they don't think it's okay to do it just because they don't talk about it. Arys is concerned both about Arianne and what her father will think if he finds out, and he only has a sexual relationship with her and Doran is a stranger to him, albeit one in a position of power. In your scenario, Robert does what he is not supposed to do to the woman he loves, to the man whom he loves better than his brothers, and to their family. Those would be inhibitions even to someone like Robert, even if no-one ever found out. We know that Ned eventually found out, though - yet the text doesn't indicate any issue.

- Or, to take your scenario a bit further:

Let us presume that Robert indeed never married after Lyanna's death, until Sansa reached puberty. Robert proposed, Ned agreed, Sansa was thrilled, just like she was about Joffrey, but was also worried the same way Lyanna had been because of Robert's reputation, and reached the same conclusion like her. So, in this scenario, would Robert be okay with banging Ned's young daughter? Would Ned be okay with it because he knew Robert?.

3.Ygrain i meant to ask you this because it occured to me why you may not have gotten Ned's quote as sarcasm.I'm only asking this because you're doing that thing again in which you don't seem to grasp tone and phrasing that is common to Americans.

"Somehow, he thought not" can indeed be used sarcastically, but for it to be a sarcasm, there would have to be context for it, and it's missing, as well as a reason. Why would Ned ridicule Rhaegar for not going to brothels, when he is being so disappointed with Robert for doing just that? And why does he even think of Rhaegar at all? - BTW, in your scenario, did Rhaegar even have sex with Lyanna at some later point?

Also, would you kindly elaborate on the points I posted above:

 

- how Rhaegar became involved in the whole "abduction" mess

- where was Lyanna after HH and how she concealed her pregnancy

- where and how Lyanna disappeared if not with Rhaegar and why she never informed her family

- why the Starks thought that Rhaegar was responsible

- why Lyanna never returned to her family

- why Lyanna never informed Robert

- where Jon was the whole time and how he could be reasonably passed off for younger than Robb when he was way older

- who fathered that other child from Lyanna's "bed of blood" and what happened with it (and if there was even a time window that allowed for another conception so shortly after her first pregnancy)

 

 

The 'if you aint sleeping with you man,then someone is." phrase doesn't have anything to do with if you are separated because one party has duties that take him/her away from you. The foundation lay in parties not doing what Cersie did to Robert and that's witholding.

So... if I am getting it right, you assert that because Lyanna had sex with Robert a couple of times during the HH tourney, he would be faithful to her? And she would expect him to be faithful to her? For months?

 

4.Ygrain read the intimacy portion of this essay we have Robert's behavior's to evaluate He is the only person that we can be assured was expressing intimacy as told from him and as told from other's point of view.Including Lyanna i know you all hate to face that fact but its there in black and white. Robert could only keep to one bed if Lyanna had hers on the table and it had nothing to do with her meaning after they were married. Why because Robert is not a patient....His exact words about himself and Ned's exact words about him.

Repeating the bolded doesn't make it any truer.

5.This is another example of how you guys don't think things through.If you buy the whole kidnapping tale i was unaware that the WB or the text said anything about what "direction" the 30 leagues lay? Was she ten miles N,S,E,W from Harrenhall.And that you believe that whole common story as is,why your interp has so much holes.Or are you going to tell me that Lyann spent close to a year at Harrenhall after all that crap went down.

Look at the map. HH is nowhere close to the road to Riverrun, it would be a detour. 

Lyanna may have stayed at HH after the tourney, may have been visiting prior Brandon's wedding. And they may have been hidden right under everyone's noses at the place where she disappeared from, just like the Stark daughter and Bael.

2.Gendry was never Lyanna's problem he probably wasn't even Cersie's

Well, someone sent the Goldcloaks for him, and someone also killed Barra's baby girl. 

and Bella isn't Robert's if you had paid attention you might have gotten that.

She most likely is.

3. And lastly your timleine that you all are so attached to re: Jon IS WRONG because Dany wasn't born when you all or she thinks she is.As i've shown and something you all can't get around.....It wasn't Rhaella Jamie saw.

Even if it wasn't Rhaella that Jaime saw, Viserys was old enough to remember his mother with a belly.

[Kingmonkey]

Arighty then its time for another essay in the series we are almost done one more to go and then a special essay by Feather and then the reflections thread.

Aren't we still missing SLJ, TLJ and NAJ essays?

On to this one, a couple of disagreements and a few questions raised that I think need some expansion or clarification.

But think about this.Why tell Jon stories about Robert's greatest achievement,exhalting Robert before Jon's eyes when you (Ned) are suppose to be his father? 

Bob is Ned's best friend, who he loves like a brother. Ned's far from boastful. Why wouldn't he tell his kids how great his bestie is?

You bring up the notion that it is meaningful that it is in Jon's chapters we see Robert particularly mentioned. I'm not sure this isn't an argument against the hypothesis. GRRM tends to sow clues at a distance.

 

GRRM has raised an important issue here about class structure and expectations of those who live in it. We also know that GRRM is known for playing with roles be it gender and or status to get a point across. In this case Lyanna is the stable boy and the peasant girl. She is nobility yes, royalty no and her status compared to Rhaegar is less.If we take GRRM's quotes contexually in conjuction with the below quotes there's no indication from Robert and Ned that Lyanna and Robert weren’t going to get married had she not died. Meaning Ned’s internal thought and even Robert’s words didn’t betray that they thought she did anything that put a stop to her marriage and in effect halting two others.

GRRM's point is about social class. Consider the parts of the text between your highlights, and let's switch it around.

almost always when there’s an arranged marriage, the girl doesn’t want it and rejects it and she runs off with  the stable boy instead. This never fucking happened.

almost always when there’s an arranged marriage, the girl doesn’t want it and rejects it and she runs off with  the stable boy instead. This never fucking happened.

Rhaegar is as far away from being the stable-boy as it is possible to get. He is higher status than Robert, not lower. 

Nor is it remotely reasonable to consider Lyanna, the oldest daughter of the lord paramount of the North, in that low social stratum. Lyanna is alongside Cat Tully, Cersei Lannister and Elia Martell (and possibly Janna Tyrell, not sure about her age/eligibility) as the most eligible women in the seven kingdoms. 

 “Robert will never keep to one bed,” It’s something that got overlooked the moment Lya uttered those famous words,and it got turned into she didn’t love Robert or want to marry him none of which is even hinted at. From her statement comes the realization, think about it now  that Lyanna knew she would have to and was willing to sleep with Robert from the get go…..Say wuh Wolfmaid are you serious? Keep in mind that Robert has been sexually active for a while and Lyanna knows that, do you think having that info she expected Robert to go without until they got married?Think about the little smile he gave Ned as well. Seriously! Did Robert abstain from sex after their betrothal, OR was he in fact “keeping to one bed-“Lya’s and he didn't have to abstain.From her conversation with Ned she was already putting that on the table. Robert could only keep to one bed if Lyanna was offering hers up for him.Not at some "appropriate time" set by others, look at what Ned tells her in the context of her statement and the entire conversation:

But she says that Robert will never keep to one bed. Future tense. As in after they are married. When Ned objects that things will change after the marriage, Lyanna tells him that "Love is sweet, dearest Ned, but it cannot change a man's nature." 

This is Lyanna refuting the idea that offering up her bed to Robert would make the blindest bit of difference. 

If you look a smidge deeper than the superficial belief that lance equates penis,lance dropping laurel in Lyanna's lap means sex and baby; the crowning itself is another representation in the Beltane ritual.If you identified Rhaegar's lance with the laurel dangling as a symbolic representation for the Maypole then you are correct.And it to is also part of the Beltane dialogue that signifies that the sacred marriage has happened the horned god and goddess have mated.This goes had in hand with what i presented before as proof that Lyanna and Robert were intimately involved.I would also like to point out an interesting fact of all the houses the Baratheon's via the female line of Elanai are the only ones to said to come from the line of gods.

While I find this part of the essay really fascinating, I also find it a bit confusing. While Robert clearly has horned god symbolism, it is Rheagar, not Robert, who crowns the may queen. Doesn't that make the sacred marriage between Rhaegar and Lyanna? Isn't Rhaegar actually supplanting Robert's de facto position as horned god by crowning Rhaegar? Or indeed, giving him horns in a rather different manner. 

So follow me here : A young girl mirroring Lyanna holding Robert’s bastard extracting a promise from Ned. I mean sometimes its in our faces.

Ned's reaction to this mirroring is that he contrasts Robert with Rhaegar. Why, if Rhaegar has nothing to do with it, does Ned suddenly think of him right then, when we are told (erroneously, but that's another matter) that Ned hadn't thought about him in years? If we are to believe that Ned doesn't think about Rhaegar much, what triggered this contrast, if there's no contrast to be made?

So what if he’s Robert’s bastard the man has several of them .Well, for any lord, lady, father, uncle ambitious for a daughter, niece to be Robert’s new bride Jon would be a threat if anyone knew including Robert because it is highly likely he would want him at court. In this case it would have been the Lannisters who would feel threatened if Jon were legitimized.The way the narrative works the Lannisters( Cersie) is still a threat to all Robert's children.

This presupposes that Ned would think that the Lannisters would be a threat to Robert's bastards, but in that case, why does Ned have so much difficulty with the idea that the Lannisters would be a threat to Robert's bastards 14 years later, when he's trying to figure out who killed Jon Arryn, and when he confronts Cersei with it?

There's also the prior example of Mya Stone, Robert's first bastard, living happily with House Royce. Why wouldn't Ned just think of how Robert behaved with Mya, and let him know he'd raise Jon in the north? Robert would surely be more than happy with that arrangement. 

 Consider,the questioner's query is based on the belief that certain info is accurate.First remember GRRM himself has made Jon’s parentage a secret. Putting clues in the series, his 98 letter and his tight lipped interviews on the matter. So in light of the preceding, why would he give it away with this ssm? I don’t think he did because he knew the conclusion which was going to be drawn would be false and that’s because Dany wasn’t born when she thought.We will spend pages on this i'm sure, but my hypothesis is based on clear anomalies below.

The identity of Jon's parents is the secret, the date of his birth is not. The time frame that GRRM gives us in this SSM is the same as what he's already given us, in a more round about way, in the text. Jon is said to have been conceived after Robb, a few months into the war. The war lasts a year, and Cat learns of Jon's birth while Ned is fighting the last battles of the war in the south. Dany is born almost nine months after the sack. We can draw the same conclusion that GRRM gives us here from the text, with a few weeks extra leeway at most. There's really no secret being revealed here at all.

 

1. Jamie’s account of the Dragonstone departure.( The cloaked woman leaving for DS in the day)

2. Visery’s account of fleeing to Dragonstone.( Midnight flight from KL,and Black sails )

3. Dany’s memories.( Lemontree,Poleboats and grasslands).

Some will believe the above are something to question and some will believe nothing is there.This is a matter again of some viewing certain things as clues to which i'll say it will be settled by GRRM.But the above are considerably more than reasonable doubt to question Dany's name day.

Viserys' memory of black sails makes perfect sense when you recall that they were indeed smuggled OUT of Dragonstone, at night. He's just got the memories of this mixed up. Or possibly GRRM did. It's rather a minor thing to hang two complicated theories on.

A for lemon trees, poleboats and grasslands: can you explain how this has any bearing on Dany's name day? These are all things that arguably hint that Dany's childhood may not have been exactly what we have been told it is, but none of it has any bearing as far as I can see on where or when she was born. She doesn't remember her birth; thus any inaccuracies in her memory have no bearing on her birth. These are questions of where she was at the age of perhaps 2-5, not of her birth.

Another point that seems to get skipped over when discussing these possible discrepancies, is that there is another source of information. In the prologe to ACoK, Stannis confirms the outline of the story we have from Viserys:

 I built a fleet at Robert's command, took Dragonstone in his name. Did he take my hand and say, Well done, brother, whatever should I do without you? No, he blamed me for letting Willem Darry steal away Viserys and the babe, as if I could have stopped it. 

prologue, ACoK

Who is that babe, if not Dany? Then we have: 

 "No," said Alleras. "It was Prince Rhaegar's young son Aegon whose head was dashed against the wall by the Lion of Lannister's brave men. We speak of Rhaegar's sister, born on Dragonstone before its fall. The one they call Daenerys.

"The Stormborn. I recall her now."

prologue, AFFC

 She's also referred to as Stormborn by Kevan and Arriane. 

This isn't just some confused story Viserys has told Dany, it's known across the seven kingdoms. 

And that, to me, is the biggest issue with this theory. There's a very good reason for believing that the timing of Dany's birth is exactly what we've been told. It's the standard history of events that's known everywhere. On the contrary, there is as far as I can see, no reason to think it might be something different apart from that a couple of people (one of them 7 at the time) have slightly vague memories of one day 14 years previously. 

[SFDanny]

The identity of Jon's parents is the secret, the date of his birth is not. The time frame that GRRM gives us in this SSM is the same as what he's already given us, in a more round about way, in the text. Jon is said to have been conceived after Robb, a few months into the war. The war lasts a year, and Cat learns of Jon's birth while Ned is fighting the last battles of the war in the south. Dany is born almost nine months after the sack. We can draw the same conclusion that GRRM gives us here from the text, with a few weeks extra leeway at most. There's really no secret being revealed here at all.

Thank you, and I will add one more time the knowledge about what is in the SSM in no way eliminates any of the theories overtly referenced in the books. Ned and Ashara, Ned and Wylla, and Ned and the Fisherman's daughter are all still alive as of the last book for the reader's consideration. Martin makes it very clear that Ashara is not, as he puts it, "nailed down" in Dorne. If Ashara could possibly have met Ned sometime during the war, then that much as well is also known for Wylla or the Fisherman's daughter. That is not to say there aren't many problems with any of the three scenarios. It only means one cannot eliminate them because of timeline and proximity questions.

Lyanna is clearly a different level of difficulty. The text gives us ample reason to believe she is in hiding, either by choice or by force, for what looks like around a year and a half, a time period overlapping the war itself, and therefore the number of people who could have met with her in the right time period is much smaller. When we are considering options like Robert, or Howland, or Lyanna's brothers we have to consider the difficulty of such a meeting. It has to be explained to even get to a point of serious discussion.

One last point on the SSM in question. It's important to look at it in terms of the what the questioner asks and why he/she does so. There is a background assumption going on here. That is, "how can Catelyn be so dumb?" Why does the questioner think her dumb? Because no one can really confuse a child conceived and born so late as it seems Cat must be doing with her own son's age? What Martin is telling us in his answer is that Robb and Jon are near each other in age, and Catelyn not being able to tell the age difference between Robb and Jon is understandable. He doesn't tell us which one is older, although he makes it clear in the story that throughout their lives Robb is said to be older, but said to have been born in the same year. So, no, Cat isn't dumb, Ashara isn't nailed to the floor in Dorne, Jon is "eight or nine months older" than Daenerys, and the mystery isn't given away by any of this information.

[Ygrain]

Ned's reaction to this mirroring is that he contrasts Robert with Rhaegar. Why, if Rhaegar has nothing to do with it, does Ned suddenly think of him right then, when we are told (erroneously, but that's another matter) that Ned hadn't thought about him in years?

This may sound like nitpicking but the quote goes "remembering Rhaegar". Remembering, as in perhaps actively recollecting, in contrast to the previous instances when Ned was reminded of Rhaegar.

[J. Stargaryen]

 

But she says that Robert will never keep to one bed. Future tense. As in after they are married. When Ned objects that things will change after the marriage, Lyanna tells him that "Love is sweet, dearest Ned, but it cannot change a man's nature." 

This is Lyanna refuting the idea that offering up her bed to Robert would make the blindest bit of difference.

This. "Robert will never keep to one bed" is incompatible with the notion that Robert would keep to one bed under certain conditions. I don't see any way around that. I don't think this disproves RB+L=J on its own, since one could probably just drop this whole argument in favor of they got frisky at HH, but it doesn't help, and there are still other problems.

While I find this part of the essay really fascinating, I also find it a bit confusing. While Robert clearly has horned god symbolism, it is Rheagar, not Robert, who crowns the may queen. Doesn't that make the sacred marriage between Rhaegar and Lyanna? Isn't Rhaegar actually supplanting Robert's de facto position as horned god by crowning Rhaegar? Or indeed, giving him horns in a rather different manner.

I'm in complete agreement with you here, and I don't see any way around the fact that it was Rhaegar who crowned Lyanna. I don't see how it can be used to argue that Robert, or Arthur Dayne, or Howland Reed for that matter, is the father. Once the phallic symbolism is acknowledged, which is implied in a Beltane interpretation, you're left with R+L. It's really as simple as Rhaegar's lance, and all that.

Btw, I really enjoyed the Beltane stuff too. (Hat tip to wolfmaid, and I believe FFR as well.) And when I looked into it myself, it became clear GRRM had included it, and other related ideas, in the text. For example, if you start reading about Beltane you might eventually read about tree worshipers, and tree spirits. As well as bonfires used to mimic the sun, which reminds me of the night fires R'hllorists burn. The night is dark and full of terrors.

Thank you, and I will add one more time the knowledge about what is in the SSM in no way eliminates any of the theories overtly referenced in the books. Ned and Ashara, Ned and Wylla, and Ned and the Fisherman's daughter are all still alive as of the last book for the reader's consideration. Martin makes it very clear that Ashara is not, as he puts it, "nailed down" in Dorne. If Ashara could possibly have met Ned sometime during the war, then that much as well is also known for Wylla or the Fisherman's daughter. That is not to say there aren't many problems with any of the three scenarios. It only means one cannot eliminate them because of timeline and proximity questions.

This is a good point, and maybe we should all take a cue from GRRM when he doesn't even bother to leave room for a theory to be possible.

[Dorian Martell]

Arighty then its time for another essay in the series we are almost done one more to go and then a special essay by Feather and then the reflections thread.

 

""R"'+L =J

By  Wolfmaid7

Syrio’s lesson to Arya is an important one to keep in mind when reading this series. It indicates how much of GRRM’s story focuses on observation and perception. What people see and why they see it determines what conclusion they draw. “We see the world not as it is, but as we wish it to be, or as we were conditioned to see it (Stephen Corey).” This is not only true of the characters in the story but of readers as well. This is no fairy tale or a Grimm tale but a realistic one which requires us to look a little deeper and pass the surface when it comes to human behavior and what we are being told and why.

As readers we sometimes ask ourselves the right questions  kind of i.e. ‘Why hasn't Ned thought of Rheagar in years if he’s Jon’s father’ when the question should be “has Ned ever thought and or talked about anyone in particular to Jon?” And moreover, how has GRRM constructed the narrative to convey this if it’s there? It’s a good question because deep down we know it’s unrealistic that Ned would be able to keep Jon’s father out of his thoughts, let alone FOR YEARS. That’s why we asked the question and knowing that we the readers aren’t clairvoyant absent Weirnet and glass candles, GRRM gives us the answers to the questions that we will be prone to ask in the text or he leaves the clues to lead us there. So what is the answer?

At times GRRM intentionally in certain characers first pov chooses  to give us revelations about that characters future arch and connections to the speaker. Jon, is the only one of the Stark kids whom Ned talked of Robert to and quite a bit that we are privy to. We see this method in the “story” content the author chooses to show us of Ned’s “fireside musings” with Bran. The stories that Bran calls to mind for instance, is intimately connected to his future arch.

This is not to say it was the only story Ned told Bran or that Bran was alone when he told it, but it’s what the author chose to have Bran alone convey.And with subsequent character POVs we see an increase in thses contents as the connection gets frequent and stronger. Likewise, Jon tells of Ned speaking about Robert to him and as we continue reading one realizes a lot of info dumps about Robert occurs in Jon’s chapters, more than any other prospect and together they are mentioned in other POVs together a fair amount of time. I shit you not check it out. But like Bran these aren't radom;the purpose it seems from a narrative view is to give insight about Robert to Jon but also to establish that there are links between them. We start with what Ned tells him, what he observes and what others tell him about Robert.How he was,is and how he’s changed.

But think about this.Why tell Jon stories about Robert's greatest achievement,exhalting Robert before Jon's eyes when you (Ned) are suppose to be his father? Don't forget Ned kicked ass during RR so shouldn't the stories be Ned centric instead of  Robert centric? It begins to make sense as to why; unable (by choice or promise) to tell the truth Ned did the next best thing. He told of Robert’s badassary to Jon, talking Robert up to him above everyone one else, ALL PRINCES( For those of you missing it,that includes Rhaegar as well). We also get Jon speaking to Benjen about Ned taking Robert to the crypts. So the author establishes Jon’s familiarity with a connection between Robert and Lyanna which is important on a personal level. Robert is not far removed from Jon. He’s better positioned to be identifiable to Jon as much as Rhaegar is far removed from him, but connected and identifiable to Dany for example.

So, you may have guessed by now that this theory postulates that Robert and Lyanna were Jon’s parents. This essay will delve into clues, symbolism, parallels, themes, events before and during Harrenthall that connects Robert and Lyanna romantically, Jon to both Robert and Lyanna and ultimately connecting all three. I apologize in advance, but the ToJ isn’t going to be discussed in this essay, it’s not going to tell us who Jon’s parents are imo from the clues i gathered.

                                                                  Where misconceptions begin ………….and should end

We could all agree that the above quote indicates that Lyanna had concerns about Bob’s ability to be faithful regardless of love. Noteworthy though is her familiarity with him, for she addresses him not as “Robert Baratheon” but “Robert” so he was no stranger to her. We should also note when the timing of this conversation took place; which was the night Lyanna found out she was to wed Robert. So consider, Robert and Lyanna knew each other prior to the arrangement and additionally, they were betrothed for a while before Lya went missing.

The WB pg.127 indicates that Robert and Lyanna had been “long” betrothed so there was time enough for this concern about Robert’s fidelity to be proven, or not.Furthermore this notion that Lyanna didn’t want the marriage is baseless.Nothing in her statement indicated this. She expressed a  belief,that Robert couldn't keep docking his cock in one port.This belief would be normal given Robert's past but I want you all to consider this when thinking about if Lyanna wanted the marriage or not. GRRM has showed us characters time and time again expressing not wanting a marriage. Sansa; Dany,Brandon,Alys all voiced not wanting to get married.It would be nothing and was for them to say that.Yet, Lyanna didn't .Her words didn't even go there in her talk with Ned.It was focused on one thing.

                                                                                                    The politics of marriage

GRRM has showed us outcomes of several arranged marriages in this series. E.g. Cat and Ned grew to love each other, when initially they didn’t. Dany and Drogo grew in love. Then we have Robert and Cersei, who were disastrous. No matter the outcome, all of these couples hooked up to secure alliances. It was expected of them and they understood the stakes involved. From the main text and the World book, we know alliances were made through;BraCat ,JoLys and RoLya.A power block on the rise.

Brandon the wild wolf despite how he felt about Barbrey was going to marry Cat. Like him Lyanna would know how important this alliance was to her family and her place in securing it as she was taught.

The take away from this: Duty to family, and if you’re lucky you just might grow in love. All this brings me to these two quotes from GRRM.

GRRM has raised an important issue here about class structure and expectations of those who live in it. We also know that GRRM is known for playing with roles be it gender and or status to get a point across. In this case Lyanna is the stable boy and the peasant girl. She is nobility yes, royalty no and her status compared to Rhaegar is less.If we take GRRM's quotes contexually in conjuction with the below quotes there's no indication from Robert and Ned that Lyanna and Robert weren’t going to get married had she not died. Meaning Ned’s internal thought and even Robert’s words didn’t betray that they thought she did anything that put a stop to her marriage and in effect halting two others.

Sum: Given GRRM’s quotes, along with the social, political and emotional stakes and ideologies involved in Westeros it’s unlikely that Lya bolted from her betrothal to Robert for Rhaegar. And it’s just as unlikely that Rhaegar ran off with or abducted her.

                                                                                                                A perfect match

One of the reasons Robert is dismissed as being Jon’s father is the image of Robert as this drunk, fat womanizer. Lyanna could never love him “for who could ever love a beast.” People forget that Robert, miles from ever having been perfect was a far cry from the man he’d become.

Note: The man Ned is describing as the perfect match for Sansa has all of Robert’s good qualities.Robert was a catch, to quote Ned “muscled like a maiden’s fantasy“ a gentle giant with a big heart.If fidelity wasn't an issue and it wasn’t, sparks would fly.Robert and Lyanna had a lot in common even down to their personalities.

About Lyanna:

About Robert:

 

                                                   Clues to an intimate relationship between Robert and Lyanna  

 Robert and Ned wouldn’t be dead for a while,so its fortunate for us we have a lot of firsthand information something no other prospect gives.What was said,done etc with regard to Lyanna and or Robert is not down to opnion and non inside information.It can be corroberated by us the readers.

We have actual information directly attesting to Robert’s feelings for Lyanna.We know he loved her and to try and argue against that at this point is being uneccessarily difficult.It is to Robert's actions and words among other things we must look to decipher the extent of any hypothetical relationship.

I added the visual smiley to show what that looked like as if to say the marriage itself isn't going to stop anything if its going to happen Ned.And one way or the other that would be right as we will see later down with what was going to happen had Sansa not been rescued.Moving on.

Pay attention to how Robert refers to getting Lya back safe “mine again” The idea of “mine” comes up a couple of times in this series and is one of endearment that speaks of emotional and or physical intimacy i.e.

So we moved from information given to us first hand and even looked at Robert's behavior as and indicator as to where his relationship lay and the above implies that is wasn't one-sided.Can that case be made stronger though?

 

I would say yes.It explains the behavior exhibited by Robert toward the statue told to us from Ned's pov and all these quotes show something that is not seen by any other prospect no matter much you go through the text……physical and emotional INTIMACY.

 

This quote given to us by Cersie is an interesting one and the arguement can be made that Robert could be grieving for the physically unrealized when it comes to Lyanna, which is the weakest of the arguments given the context and intensity, or he could have been reenacting what he did with Lyanna by calling out her name in bed screwing Cersie, too drunk to realize it wasn’t her.I hope you all see it though ?  What prompted Ned thinking about Lyanna,pale blue roses and wanting to weep....Robert having sex with "Lyanna"

 

 Let’s now look at another quote and its connotation.

 

What's good about Robert is that we know a lot about him and who he was via his intimates and what we have seen ourselves.Its been established that Robert isn't use to being denied.So its not a shock that he seems taken aback by Cersie withholding pussy.But Robert’s reaction itself is a clue ,Cersie was the only woman to be selfish with her "Punani", which in itself is a hint that Lyanna “didn’t guard her cunt from Robert” she wasn't cold towards him,which brings me to the only statement made by Lyanna concerning Robert. The ultimate tidbit.

 

 “Robert will never keep to one bed,” It’s something that got overlooked the moment Lya uttered those famous words,and it got turned into she didn’t love Robert or want to marry him none of which is even hinted at. From her statement comes the realization, think about it now  that Lyanna knew she would have to and was willing to sleep with Robert from the get go…..Say wuh Wolfmaid are you serious? Keep in mind that Robert has been sexually active for a while and Lyanna knows that, do you think having that info she expected Robert to go without until they got married?Think about the little smile he gave Ned as well. Seriously! Did Robert abstain from sex after their betrothal, OR was he in fact “keeping to one bed-“Lya’s and he didn't have to abstain.From her conversation with Ned she was already putting that on the table. Robert could only keep to one bed if Lyanna was offering hers up for him.Not at some "appropriate time" set by others, look at what Ned tells her in the context of her statement and the entire conversation:

So was there stipulation by Lyanna as to  when Robert would be keeping to one bed? No,which is part of the point sex would occur when it occurs whether they were married or just bethored .Additionally, Robert having a child before wouldn't be a big deal to Lyanna if she had no feelings for him.How many women have become step mothers to children of Lords in Westeros and have no gripe. Robert having a child with "some girl" affected her a bit more than it should.Lyanna was a tad jealous he had been with some girl and knocked her up.A little territorial are we?

As a comparison we see this with Arya when it came to Gendry:

Righhhht Arya it was nothing to you.

So,knowing Robert's appetite as Lyanna did,what are the odds that during the entire betrothal Robert never made "the move?" He had sex with a 15yr old prostitute and got her preggers and he was an out of shape grown ass man at that time.Robert wasn't going to suffer from blue balls and Lyanna already knew ,accepted and was willing when it came to married or not that was part of the deal.Therefore,what do we think would happen given the variables of a willing girl and a virile male?

The Coat of Arms worth a thousand words.

Remember I brought up paying attention to who GRRM chooses to convey info verbally or visually through? Let’s look at, IMO a set up and reveal by the author that begins in an Arya and Jon conversation. Keep in mind the TKOTLT story with this part. I think some good evidence has been put forth already that Lyanna is TKOTLT so i won't press that.

Sum: Lyanna wed what was well known and loved about Robert (his laughter) to what signified home (Weirwood heart tree) on her shield.If we peel back the the onion the picture emerges that there was mutual feelings between Robert and Lyanna and it wasn't this crazy epic love at firstsight BS.It was probably the most awkward thing ever given how they started out.....They knew each other through Ned was his best friend and her brother.

                                                        Mythic parallel and theme: Connections Robert, Lyanna and Jon.

Sex and love sounds good but it doesn't neccessarily mean pregnancy will occur but so this is where identifying a link will give credence to them having a baby.

GRRM incorporated several world mythologies in his story and some of these myths overlap in the lives of some of the characters but sometimes we get a gem that is very unique to certain characters and events. One such myth has very strong allusions that Jon’s parents are Robert and Lyanna.This isn't an exact match down to evey detail.It can't be there's stuff that happenes in real that isn't even there and other variations and diversions are present but the gist is still there and fits perfectly.

We look toward a ritual that was recreated by the author at Harrenhal. In many pagan traditions, Beltane the third holiday on the “wheel of the year” is a major fertility festival between spring and summer. Certain characters in this story are acting out or have acted out the Wheel of the Year as well as an important ritual called “The grand rite” aka “the sacred marriage”. Central to the Beltane ritual are two figures. The Horned god,a solar god whose dual aspect Oak(e.g. Cernunnous,Green man) and Holly king(e.g Corn king,Santa Claus) rules summer and winter respectively. In some traditions he is one person with two parts to his nature. He recieves a mortal wound,dies and is born again with the help of the goddess to continue the cycle. In other traditions the two aspects are brothers that are in an eternal war and they are killed in their turn to indicate which half of the year will be dominant and which brother is ruling. The Horned god is a natural hunter, warrior, fertile, virile and wild. He is life, death and rebirth.The masculine energy at the feast and is machismo personified. He has the honor of mating with the goddess who is also a dual deity floral/winter. At the “grand rite” couples hooking up is common but it is the above coupling that is important because from their union the horned god (Oak +Holly) is conceived anew birthed and hidden until the fullness of time has come for him to emerge.

The Players and how they line up                                                               

The above is a summary of Beltane, a snap shot of what goes on, who’s important. So how does that relate this story?Well GRRM has labled our players and the event for us.

Here George has given us the imagery of Robert as both aspect of the Oak and Holly.We get the bad ass  horned warrior in his youth and the jolly fat man with sparking eyes and rosy cheeks..bascally Santa

The maiden crowned with a halo of flowers is the typical imagery for the goddess at Beltane and this is what Lyanna represents.

The Wicker man a product of modern paganism based off *ehem* sketchy origin (blood sacrifice) but in a ritualistic context he is the working of sympathetic magic. The purpose is to change what the effigy represents and hinder its power. Both Rhaegar and Aerys would fit the Wicker man archetype.They represent an era,order, system that needed to be changed and was with their deaths.

Good times, good wine, ceremony, pageantry,some fighting  and sex.

If you look a smidge deeper than the superficial belief that lance equates penis,lance dropping laurel in Lyanna's lap means sex and baby; the crowning itself is another representation in the Beltane ritual.If you identified Rhaegar's lance with the laurel dangling as a symbolic representation for the Maypole then you are correct.And it to is also part of the Beltane dialogue that signifies that the sacred marriage has happened the horned god and goddess have mated.This goes had in hand with what i presented before as proof that Lyanna and Robert were intimately involved.I would also like to point out an interesting fact of all the houses the Baratheon's via the female line of Elanai are the only ones to said to come from the line of gods.

                                                                                                              Jon Snow     thou art the babe!!

 Going back to “Beltane at Harrenhal.”Based on the roles GRRM has placed everyone in, Lyanna and Robert did have a son that continues in the same arch of the horned gods Oak and Holly King archetype Ned’s chapter when Robert dies and Jon chapter when he gets the news flows directly into after each other.I put Robert's death scene because its the image of him as the Green man fallen that's important.Here's a couple of quotes to show the progression and passing of the torch so to speak.

In addition to the mythical connection between Jon Lya and Robert, let’s look at another visual by GRRM that further 

So follow me here : A young girl mirroring Lyanna holding Robert’s bastard extracting a promise from Ned. I mean sometimes its in our faces.

                                                                                             Parallels and connections Jon and Robert

Echoes and parallels between comparative subjects are best made with similar experiences and choices that are actually present vs what we think may have happened and there are a lot of comparative echoes of Robert and Jon’s experiences and nature.

Parallels and connections Jon and Lyanna

Why the secrecy if he’s Robert’s bastard?

So what if he’s Robert’s bastard the man has several of them .Well, for any lord, lady, father, uncle ambitious for a daughter, niece to be Robert’s new bride Jon would be a threat if anyone knew including Robert because it is highly likely he would want him at court. In this case it would have been the Lannisters who would feel threatened if Jon were legitimized.The way the narrative works the Lannisters( Cersie) is still a threat to all Robert's children.

 In addition to possible physical harm we have to think about the stigma. Legitimized or not the stain of bastardry remains as well as the belief about them. Except this would be throughout the realm.

Timelines and nameday throwaways

And now we come to it, the seeming spoke in the wheel ,the one thing when any prospect for Jon’s father is brought up they are immediately met with nope the timeline is wrong.I will state that i don't think the popular view is correct because it was derived from information that is incorrect.First,GRRM in his wisdom gave us sound sage advice below because it is in the story and narrative that the answers will be found without hurting heads trying to calculate every bit of movement which is flawed in its subjective interpretation.

Conventional thinking puts Jon’s birth 1 month give or take of the sack of KL (Citadel). I however believe that Jon is actually older than he or we think he is because the narrative supports it..He was veiwed and treated as younger than Robb because it was easier for everyone to think that way given Cat and Robb status. The social beliefs created an environment for this subterfuge to be successful but when you take all the bits together one gets the entire picture that Ned has been lying by omission and just letting people draw their own conclusions without giving anything away.

With these quotes we already see people’s perception is off. Cat it seems arrived at her own conclusions regarding when Ned had his moment and Ned never validated or refuted what she thought. Just like he never validated or refuted Cersie’s accusation. His conversation with Robert also adds nothing as to when Jon was conceived or born except that he dishonored himself and Cat in the sight of gods and men and that has more to do with him calling Jon his son for all to see. So how does one logically pin point when Jon was born from this.Ohhhh yes the "big tamale" The “major evidence” used to support Jon being born 1 month or so in relation to the Sack.So lets get to it then:

 Consider,the questioner's query is based on the belief that certain info is accurate.First remember GRRM himself has made Jon’s parentage a secret. Putting clues in the series, his 98 letter and his tight lipped interviews on the matter. So in light of the preceding, why would he give it away with this ssm? I don’t think he did because he knew the conclusion which was going to be drawn would be false and that’s because Dany wasn’t born when she thought.We will spend pages on this i'm sure, but my hypothesis is based on clear anomalies below.

1. Jamie’s account of the Dragonstone departure.( The cloaked woman leaving for DS in the day)

2. Visery’s account of fleeing to Dragonstone.( Midnight flight from KL,and Black sails )

3. Dany’s memories.( Lemontree,Poleboats and grasslands).

Some will believe the above are something to question and some will believe nothing is there.This is a matter again of some viewing certain things as clues to which i'll say it will be settled by GRRM.But the above are considerably more than reasonable doubt to question Dany's name day.

The Bastard contingency

So what does the narrative indicate with regards to Jon.Ned, whether he actively thought to do this or not ended up doing one of the best things he could do to maintain Jon’s secrecy and at the same time appease the more curious minds. The man denied nothing and acknowledged nothing whatever people thought and why they thought it became Jon’s cove.And we come back to what i mentioned at the start -perception v reality.Cat wanted her children’s place to be secure so she convinced herself he Jon was younger and more importantly that belief was superimposed on Jon.He believed it. 

This could be used two ways, (1) explain bastard children who were older being dubbed younger to ensure they have less of an opportunity to inherit. And or cover why they are a bit more mature by turning it into a negative against them.

 We also have Jon himself doing what I’m proposing happened to him, passing off an older baby for a younger one so their is precedence. Gilly’s baby and  Dalla’s .We don’t know if they are weeks apart, months or a year that’s not important in comparison to the blinders people put on when someone in authority says “thus is the case” Jon said Monster was Aemon and so he was. No one really paid attention to how they looked physically.Why would they,too much shit was happening around them.

“Her eyes were red and puffy, but the boy was in her arms, bundled tight. Whether it was her boy or Dalla’s he could not be sure. He had only seen the two together a few times. Gilly’s boy was older, Dalla’s more robust, but they were close enough in age and size so that no one who did not know them well would be able to easily tell one from the other. Jon ADWD. 

Sum: The basis for establishing Jon's nameday cannot be used as a definiative when it in itself is most likely false.Cat's belief is one based on the preservation of her children's status.We have an entire culture and social belief that acts as a protective shield for true born from Bastards born before.Lastly,we have precedence which indicates unless you are really looking nobody gives a s**t if i'm a person in authority and i say my child is a year when he's actually 2.3mths.He's that age. I dare you to call me a liar and risk your head. 

                                                             Points of contention that will come up and counters to them

1. Jon doesn’t have black hair like the rest of Robert’s bastards nor does he have Robert's muscular built.What's up with that?

     A. Gendry remembers that his mom had yellow hair

     B.   Barra’s mother ….Had light red hair

    First, I will say that the phrase “the seed is strong” isn’t limited or exclusive to hair color, jaw line and broad shoulders.Ned just happened to zero in on that one trait. What is being observed by Ned and told to us is the outcome between the black hairs of Baratheons with the gold hair of the Lannisters, only. Therefore its incorrect to exclude Jon based on his dark brown hair. Those of you familiar with genetics should get this.And i will add this we get no description of Cassana Eastermont but we do get a description of a kin of hers

 

2. Ned said Robert didn’t know Lyanna he only saw her beauty not the iron so Robert couldn’t have loved her “neener, neener.”

 

      A. Actually Ned said: “You never knew Lyanna as I did, Robert.”

In addition to the several quotes dismissing that notion we should understand context.Ned is simply pointing out the difference in their relationship with the same woman. His knowledge and intimacy as a sibling will be different to Robert’s knowledge and intimacy as the intended.Robert didn't see Lyanna's iron side because he probably did nothing to warrant it.

3. And how about Bella and Gendry if Robert loved Lya so much explain Bella and Gendry he sired them when Lyanna was missing.What do you say to that?

Well actually no i'm going to throw a wrench in that notion.

A.    This is a rumor that has its foundation in Robert’s reputation and the fact that he was at the Stoney Sept. You can tell this by the latter bolded perceived idea of Robert. Bella herself is not even buying this but it’s good for business pitching your banging one of Robert’s bastards.

B.    Given that Gendry was born in KL it would no doubt be some time after Robert had come there and made himself king. Logically, based on what was going on and considering the emotional hit Robert was about to take. He most likely went to a tavern in KL after he found out about Lyanna’s death and he never left.

4. I don't care she was willing and he was horny Robert and Lya wouldn’t have sex before they got married it’s against custom

    A. Righhhhhhht because no one else ever did or thought about it.Plus they would be stupid to blab don't you think?    

5.    Robert’s genes are just so strong and Jon has nothing from him.I aint buying it Wolfy.

Well if we get hung up on the hair,jaw and shoulder the obvious Bob trait you might miss it.

1.“Ours is the Fury.”

Robert's anger is well known and legendary and so is Jon's to the point that we the fans have nick named it i.e waking the Dragon or him going Berserker.That's Robert's temperment.They get angry very fast. As Theon said of Jon he is qick to percieve a slight...Just like Robert.There is several more examples but you all get the point it think.

The Seed is strong

So remember I told you to keep in mind that the above phrase means more than hair etc? “Seed” also means progeny/offspring,so reading this again with that in mind we have “the progeny/offspring” is strong.And yes George actually subs children for seed in the narrative i.e Arriane in the "Princess in tower" chpt refers to herself as her father's seed.

About Gendry

About Mya

About Edric

Of those we are sure are Roberts, his strength and physical features are stamped unto them. Jon exhibits exceptional strength as well but unlike the others in his case it is more noticeable because he doesn’t have the Baratheon built that would explain his physical strength. Which is IMO what GRRM intended to show as a contrast. You look at the others and because of their built its obvious they are strong no big deal.George removes the obvious physicality which makes his streangth pop.We as fans notice his strength and we talk about it because it shouldn't be .Look at all of them together.

We know what Jon did to poor Em.People...JON IS ROBERT'S BASTARD.

                                                                                                                                       PART 2

Rhaegar’s Pekong: Pekong is a form of social commentary with a hidden insult or shaming creatively, it can be an extreme form of teasing.

 

Rhaegar’s actions with the crowning  isn’t necessary for making a case for Robert as Jon daddy. I don’t believe they are linked directly. The crowning as i will show actually had more to do with her “state of purity” at the time.I think it important to explain IMO what Rhaegar’s actions at the Tourney were about, what it was saying and the consequences. It’s easy to think especially where roses are involved somehow it’s about romance or admiration. We see in the case of Loras and Sansa as well as the Bael story that doesn’t hold true always.There’s always another motive behind the scenes. The same here,it  had naught to do with admiration, love at first sight, politics(though politics could work) or prophecy. It was simply Rhaegar’s wit on steroids, shaming Lyanna for her behavior. What Rhaegar did had cultural significance to the Starks that should be taken into consideration. Given Rhaegar’s bookish nature it’s not unreasonable to think that he may have encountered the tale of Bael and the Stark maiden before and pulled it from his memory bank when he found out Lyanna and Robert had banged at the tourney.Ehhh the politics aspect.Its possible he was "advised "to do that without ever having known what that would mean in relation to the Starks who were visibly upset.Its possible someone else used Rhaegar's actions and made a power play of their own.This could also have been Rhegar's version of his cousin and his woman kissing underneath a tree and it backfired.For me it was a series of unfortunate events that "someone else" capitalized on, which started with Rhaegar when he went all Baelor the blessed and dissed Lyanna for un-lady like conduct.We'll talk more about this i'm sure.

There's a lot of interpretation with respect to the Bael the bard story and needless to say i don't agree with the common thinking on it.Or should i say there are aspects of the story really important that gets swept aside.I want to draw attention to one fact that when it came to Bael and the Stark maiden it takes two to tango.Sure Bael banged her to stick it to LS However,she was even more shady than Bael.Remember Daeron's ( another singer)story about his encounter with the Lord Rowan's daughter.This is for another essay but this is what kind of happened in Lyanna's case. Brandon's declaration is at the Red Keep is a big clue to that.

Fun fact: A girl’s Hymen before getting torn looks like an inverted flower? This is where the term “deflower” originated.

I think it’s important to see that there is a difference between a blue rose and a crown of blue roses and a baby. Also, But to add a little symbolism behind the crown its common in Beltane rituals as the adornment of the goddess in her maiden untouched form. We will continue in the vein that blue rose is linked to the Stark girl’s virginity in verse her unblemished state and sync that with the crown which is just a bigger emphasis on that state.Rhaegar laying the crown of blue roses in Lya's lap in front of her brothers calling back to that unfortunate tale implied that Lya was no maiden thus deflowering had already occurred. He gave her a symbol of what she no longer was ,so making her a maiden again.Now if the Stark boys saw this as an insult,and they clearly did how would Lyanna -coming from the same cultural background and household- interpret this gesture from Rheagar? We see a contrast with Sansa here and who reached out and took the rose from Loras However, Lyanna didn’t touch or grasp the crown and go all groupie.So what was she doing probably steering at it in shock and humiliation until Ned removed it and boy was he writhing inside.Though Ned wasn’t overtly expressive as Brandon, his description was very telling.

Note: Thorns have a few meaning in real and none positiive .As you know a thorny crown is tied to a rather famous event in our world as a mockery to Jesus the Christ. As the Romans mocked Jesus as King of the Jews with their Crown of thorns, Rhaegar’s gesture mocked Lyanna as a maiden. It was sharp and it was cruel…… It hurt.Worse for him his actions drew blood, first blood.

The blue bolded is how we know sex had happened it verifies the interpretation of what Rhaegar did and goes hand in hand with the myth. A tree was the original maypole .When couples went off "A maying" sky and green canopy were their tent and other things *ehem* hung from the branches.George could have just said  Rhaegar found nothing when they looked for TKOTLT but he chose this imagery and put it linguistically that way.

Another Fun Fact: A girl's hymen is also reffered to as her "shield"

Harwin’s paints a "festive" atmosphere at the tourney (keep in mind the great rite). Robert and Lya like a lot of other couples “hooked up” at the Tourney it simple as human nature and being horny in an atmosphere that warmed the blood. The obvious question is how did Rhaegar know? He guessed, a friend told him, someone saw ,he saw ,Robert drunk let it slip; take your pick.I'm thinking and its possible when Rhaegar found the shield that was his clue.So,on the last day of the Tourney he dropped the 411, a reference only the Starks would get. It was the truth cleverly wrapped, that alluded to a previous shame in Stark history.                        

                                                                                                                         Spot the Ghost Grass

This part is strictly for fun you don't have to read it or even play along ,but Ghost grassing is basically like confirmation bias.Nothing more to go on than i have to believe it first and that's how it will fit.Some of these i might consider to be confirmation bias,others maybe not.What do you guys think what would you guys choose from below?

-Ned lied to Robert about Jon being Ned’s and Wylla’s. The truth he hid, that Jon was Robert's by Lyanna

Seeing as Theon’s entire internal monologue consisted of Ned and Robert conquest of Pyke It’s so clearly  ironic as Ned was raising Robert's son.

-Robert’s son who the author cleverly had Thorne refer to as a wilding is on the Wall...Jon Snow

- Ned was nervous because Jon and Robert were in the same room for the first time. Robert knows Lya’s face intimately so there is a possibility he would have seen a bit of Lya in Jon. You know because Jon looks like Arya and Arya looks like Lyanna. By the way Jon your father went to visit your mother.

The real king,that black bastard,Robert's child. And Robert's black bastard is a thief to.He stole Tywin's chicken,Tourmond's gold band and Ygritte to.LMAO,I almost couln't  finish that one...I'm sorry.

He laughed like a drunk or a madman well look at that.Additionally,Jon may have had the somber face of the Starks but his father's joyfoul essence.Sam notes after Ygritte died that Jon seldom smiled.We see a few moments of him laughing with Sam,Grenn and the others and even Arya in connecting needle to him associated Needle with his smile.

In conclusion:  It has been said that clues in this series supports one man as Jon’s father. No other combination stands up against  it.You decide. I’ve shown that Robert and Lyanna most definitely were sexually involved and the clues highlighted could also support mutual love between them. Additionally the essay has showed connections between Robert/Jon, Lyanna /Jon and even found the common thread that connects all three thematically in and out of verse. The need for secrecy when it came to Jon was quite clear and still is relevant to the story emotionally, politically and magically if Jon is revealed to be the son of Robert Baratheon and Lyanna Stark.

Thank you all for reading and for participating.

This is slightly less plausible than the love child of  Optimus Prime and Megatron being the great other. 

[J. Stargaryen]

This may sound like nitpicking but the quote goes "remembering Rhaegar". Remembering, as in perhaps actively recollecting, in contrast to the previous instances when Ned was reminded of Rhaegar.

This is exactly what I think. If you want a good example of how you can be reminded of someone (almost) daily without really remembering them or thinking about them too much, just go to your Facebook page.

[nanother]

 

There is only one confirmed error in the tale. Viserys's age. Either Dany misremembers his age, which is possible, or the tale she was told was incorrect. So then, either Viserys would have told it wrong on purpose (possible, not that unlikely, but at the same time, perhaps unnecessary), or accidentally (equally possible, imo). And since so many of the elements of the story fit the flight from Dragonstone, it would be an easy solution, which requires so little, and fits nicely with the text. Unlike theories where Dany is not who she thinks she is, simply because she had a lemon tree under her window.

Sorry for going slightly off topic (I intend to eventually respond to the OP as well), but this reminds me that there's another error regarding Viserys's age, in TWoIaF. He's said to have been 7 years old during the lead-up to Harrenhal - yet he couldn't have been more than 5 if he was born in 276 as the very same WB states:

Indeed, certain of the king’s men had even gone so far as to suggest that Aerys should disinherit his “disloyal” son, and name his younger brother heir to the Iron Throne in his stead. Prince Viserys was but seven years of age, and his eventual ascension would certainly mean a regency, wherein they themselves would rule as regents.

TBH I can't see its significance, but it's weird that the same character's age would be messed up twice in the books.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Sorry for going slightly off topic (I intend to eventually respond to the OP as well), but this reminds me that there's another error regarding Viserys's age, in TWoIaF. He's said to have been 7 years old during the lead-up to Harrenhal - yet he couldn't have been more than 5 if he was born in 276 as the very same WB states:

Indeed, certain of the king’s men had even gone so far as to suggest that Aerys should disinherit his “disloyal” son, and name his younger brother heir to the Iron Throne in his stead. Prince Viserys was but seven years of age, and his eventual ascension would certainly mean a regency, wherein they themselves would rule as regents.

TBH I can't see its significance, but it's weird that the same character's age would be messed up twice in the books.

For now, I assume that is one of the errors in the earlier prints (especially since Yandel earlier describes Viserys's birth in 276 AC).. It would be nice if someone with a later print (4 or higher) could check to see whether it is still in there, but as of yet, I haven't come across anyone with a print containing the fixes of such errors. 

[Kingmonkey]

This may sound like nitpicking but the quote goes "remembering Rhaegar". Remembering, as in perhaps actively recollecting, in contrast to the previous instances when Ned was reminded of Rhaegar.

That's an interesting way to look at it, but it doesn't quite work. In Ned's previous chapter, we had "suddenly, uncomfortably, he found himself recalling Rhaegar Targaryen. Fifteen years dead, yet Robert hates him as much as ever. " Prior examples of Ned referring to Rheagar are references to the past, and he doesn't really think about him. There, your distinction makes sense. This one though strikes me as being a bit harder to explain.

I'd say the most likely explanation is that GRRM made a mistake in using these two so similar phrases. He obviously had this notion in his head that part of the story he wanted to tell was Ned being suddenly reminded of Rhaegar, that the events of the present day would resonate with the events of the rebellion in Ned's mind. He used it twice, after all. The question then is why he chose to use that particular device in this particular place. Waving it aside just doesn't work -- it's obviously an important point that GRRM is making, something he'd thought about.