Heresy Project X+Y=J: Robert + Lyanna

[The Wolves]

42 minutes ago, Laughing Storm Reborn said:

This is going to be abattle until the next book i'm gladly away from... it feels like hitting rock with rubber

Do not attach Jon with Bob, attach him with Rhaegar who´s attached to the MADDEST GUY IN THE STORY?!?... flawless logic

By the time of AGOT, everyone has blood from everyone else... heck Bob himself is 1/4 Targ

Nature vs Nurture

My logic is that I love the Targs and hate the Baratheons therefore I don't want Jon being the son of someone I really hate like Robert Baratheon. 

My point is that Robert had 16 bastards and 3 incest bastards thought they were his  trueborn kids his fans should go claim and make a case for them being his and leave Rhaegar's maybe kid alone. 

[TimJames]

On 3/14/2016 at 3:45 PM, The Wolves said:

My logic is that I love the Targs and hate the Baratheons therefore I don't want Jon being the son of someone I really hate like Robert Baratheon. 

While I love the Baratheons and consider The Targaryens to be Arrogant, Entitled, Race-Supremacist Inbreeders.

Therefore, Jon Snow being the descendant of Gentle Giant Warrior Robert is better than him being the descendant of Deceitful Prophecy-Obsessed War-Causer Rhaegar (and by extension Murderous "burn them all" Aerys).

In any case, Rhaegar's bloodline IS going to end. Aegon Targaryen (who might not even be Rhaegar's kid) is unmarried, hangs out with a Greyscale Patient, and has as a hobby trying to take control of Seven Kingdoms with only th help of the least effectual Sellsword Company in history ("The Golden Company failed every other attempt to take The Iron Throne, but I've got a good feeling about this time!" - Ageon). Jon Snow, meanwhile, does not want to have children. Finding out his biological father planned for him to be a bastard on purpose won't change that. 

If you don't have anything to contribute to this thread, than take your Robert-Hating and leave.

[TimJames]

Wolfmaid, you did a good job characterizing Robert and Lyanna. 

Had Lyanna lived, I think she and Robert would have been happy together.

[Wall Flower]

1 hour ago, TimJames said:

Wolfmaid, you did a good job characterizing Robert and Lyanna. 

Had Lyanna lived, I think she and Robert would have been happy together.

Unlike the Wolves, I don't hate all Baratheons - Robert's remaining bastards seem okay and I think that Stannis is far and away the best of the three brothers (despite his less than winning personality).

However, I think that the text is pretty clearly telling us that Lyanna didn't care for Robert, who   only had a superficial regard for her, and that Robert lacked the temperament or maturity to be a good husband. The author only gives us one quote from Lyanna about Robert, on the very night of her betrothal, and it shows her having doubts about his very nature and seeming unconvinced by Ned's attempts to reassure her. The only counter the OP has provided is the suggestion that the Knight of the Laughing Tree sigil referred to Robert but that seems tenuous and speculative rather than well substantiated.

If Lyanna had come to care for Robert in the period of their betrothal, we should have had some clue in the text. Instead everything points her in Rhaegar's direction. 

[Jon's Queen Consort]

On 13/3/2016 at 10:57 PM, wolfmaid7 said:

Let's look at your statement

1. Lyanna "hated Robert's unfaithfullness"

Can you point to him being ever unfaithful to her? And know that by that type of questioning that's achknowleding that there was something betwen them.Your also using and expression not exhibted by Lyanna at all.No hate.Concern yes.

2.As to her getting pregnant. Robert and Lyanna have a given that can't be prooven with anyone else.....Time.All of Robert's behavior and behavior of individuals familar with both parties i.e Ned Indicate that the feeling expressed by Robert was mutal. Unless you don't trust Ned's visual POV and believe Robert was in a relationship by his lonesome?

3. Just a point so Lyanna running off with a married guy with kids who she doesn't know at all reads like......?????

1. No and this is why I believe that Luanna is a hypocritical idiot. That doesn't mean that she didn't felt like it.

2. It'a all about timeline. When Lyanna gave birth, according to Jon's date of birth that GRRM has told us about, she had gone missing for more than a year. And if Robert's strong seed doesn't make a woman pregnant for more than 12 months I don't see how or where she could had conceive.

3. As I said  I believe that Luanna is a hypocritical idiot.

[wolfmaid7]

On 3/17/2016 at 8:01 AM, Jon's Queen Consort said:

1. No and this is why I believe that Luanna is a hypocritical idiot. That doesn't mean that she didn't felt like it.

2. It'a all about timeline. When Lyanna gave birth, according to Jon's date of birth that GRRM has told us about, she had gone missing for more than a year. And if Robert's strong seed doesn't make a woman pregnant for more than 12 months I don't see how or where she could had conceive.

3. As I said  I believe that Luanna is a hypocritical idiot.

Sorry i am taking so long to write back.To your first point.

1.Can someone and have people been hyprocrites in this story? Absolutely,but falling back on that assumption because the person's action is easy to explain that way doesn't cut it.Not in this story.If it seems contradictory to what we believe then maybe we should question that assumption.

2.We are having a discussion about the timeline presently and i think there's enough evidence to question.Jon's birth was based on what Dany believes." She was born 9 moons after they fled KL."

No one questions that because "everyone" believes Rhaella left KL at a certain time.Was it her though? My contention is no it wasn't.

a. Jamie doesn't see Rhaella.He expected it to be her but it wasn't and as i pointed out earlier i think its important to pay close attention to the scene set up that GRRM had Jamie witness and better yet the language he himself used when describing the departure.

The assumption overall is fruit of the poison tree,the fruit being Rhaella and her relationship to Dany and her movements where and when.

So in the end the timeline is not an issue.It is not set in stone given the variables we are talking about that would essentially mitigate its impact on Jon's timeline.

[Gaius Gracchus]

23 hours ago, wolfmaid7 said:

2.We are having a discussion about the timeline presently and i think there's enough evidence to question.Jon's birth was based on what Dany believes." She was born 9 moons after they fled KL."

No one questions that because "everyone" believes Rhaella left KL at a certain time.Was it her though? My contention is no it wasn't.

a. Jamie doesn't see Rhaella.He expected it to be her but it wasn't and as i pointed out earlier i think its important to pay close attention to the scene set up that GRRM had Jamie witness and better yet the language he himself used when describing the departure.

The assumption overall is fruit of the poison tree,the fruit being Rhaella and her relationship to Dany and her movements where and when.

So in the end the timeline is not an issue.It is not set in stone given the variables we are talking about that would essentially mitigate its impact on Jon's timeline.

The only evidence you provide of Dany not being born when believed is Rhaella being hooded? And that's sufficient evidence in your mind?

Earlier you said that you thought Dany was actually Rhaegar's child. As I pointed out in my last post, this is essentially impossible based on what Rhaegar told Jon Connington (among other reasons). That means she must still be Rhaella's daughter.

Let's take that as given. If she wasn't born after fleeing King's Landing, that means she must have been born in King's Landing. If that's the case, why was she not with Aegon and Rhaenys when King's Landing was sacked? You think they would have smuggled out the second daughter but not the heir? Why was nobody attending her birth? How did neither Barristan nor Jaime, both members of the Kingsguard, not realize that Rhaella was pregnant? The list of problems goes on and on. This does not make sense. 

In fact, even if the woman in the cloak Jaime saw wasn't Rhaella (and there's no good evidence to suggest it wasn't her), that still doesn't mean that Dany wasn't born on Dragonstone 9 moons after fleeing King's Landing. It just means that Jaime misinterpreted what he saw. 

One last thing, not related to Dany's birth. I'm pretty sure at some point in this discussion you mentioned that Rhaegar did not abduct Lyanna and actually had no knowledge of where she was. If that's the case, why were three members of the Kingsguard waiting outside the Tower of Joy? Whom or what were they guarding that could possibly be more important than helping win the war and guarding Rhaegar himself? This also makes no sense. 

Ultimately, what I'm looking for in your response is an answer to two questions.

1. When, where, and to whom do you believe Dany was born?

2. Why were Arthur Dayne and company guarding the Tower of Joy? 

[wolfmaid7]

3 hours ago, Gaius Gracchus said:

The only evidence you provide of Dany not being born when believed is Rhaella being hooded? And that's sufficient evidence in your mind?

Earlier you said that you thought Dany was actually Rhaegar's child. As I pointed out in my last post, this is essentially impossible based on what Rhaegar told Jon Connington (among other reasons). That means she must still be Rhaella's daughter.

Let's take that as given. If she wasn't born after fleeing King's Landing, that means she must have been born in King's Landing. If that's the case, why was she not with Aegon and Rhaenys when King's Landing was sacked? You think they would have smuggled out the second daughter but not the heir? Why was nobody attending her birth? How did neither Barristan nor Jaime, both members of the Kingsguard, not realize that Rhaella was pregnant? The list of problems goes on and on. This does not make sense. 

In fact, even if the woman in the cloak Jaime saw wasn't Rhaella (and there's no good evidence to suggest it wasn't her), that still doesn't mean that Dany wasn't born on Dragonstone 9 moons after fleeing King's Landing. It just means that Jaime misinterpreted what he saw. 

One last thing, not related to Dany's birth. I'm pretty sure at some point in this discussion you mentioned that Rhaegar did not abduct Lyanna and actually had no knowledge of where she was. If that's the case, why were three members of the Kingsguard waiting outside the Tower of Joy? Whom or what were they guarding that could possibly be more important than helping win the war and guarding Rhaegar himself? This also makes no sense. 

Ultimately, what I'm looking for in your response is an answer to two questions.

1. When, where, and to whom do you believe Dany was born?

2. Why were Arthur Dayne and company guarding the Tower of Joy? 

Is it the only no its not.I've seen people believe stuff on nothing at all.It is one among many which includes.

1.Dany's own memory

2.Visery's memory of the event

3.The entire Lemongate angle which has merit 

4.Rather uneccessary language and visual decription of a scene for something considered nothing.

My belief that Dany is Rhaegar's daughter is irrelevant to if the person under the hood is Rhaella or not..

If she's Rhaella's daughter it changes nothing because again the point is if the cloaked and hooded figure isn't her it means she could have left the city prior to Jamie's "sigthing of her."So based on that i can't take what you say as a given because the variable we are talking about is an unknown.

A note: Part of what you said doesn't make sense and i'm speaking of the second bolded.We are depending on hearsay that Rhaella was preggers with Dany when she left seeing as( and i doubt there was one-step early testing in Westeros).Jamie and Barristan would not know anything as she would not have been showing.Dany said she was just a quickening in her mom's womb when they left.That can't be verified.

All it takes is someone in authority or of some influence to say she is Rhaella's daughter.

To your last bolded i'm not sure how to answer that because it has nothing to do with Jon.

1.Were the KGs guarding someone? It didn't seem as they were guarding anyone.They were just 3 dudes standing outside a tower.Why? They were told to wait there,trying to figure out what to do or maybe there was someone inside who doesn't have to be Jon.So essentially no one to someone it just aint Jon.

Lastly, the two questions you are asking has nothing to do with who Jon's parents are.You are asking me questions based on a belief you already adhere to.So these questions are the wrong one to ask me.

 

[Gaius Gracchus]

17 hours ago, wolfmaid7 said:

My belief that Dany is Rhaegar's daughter is irrelevant to if the person under the hood is Rhaella or not..

If she's Rhaella's daughter it changes nothing because again the point is if the cloaked and hooded figure isn't her it means she could have left the city prior to Jamie's "sigthing of her."So based on that i can't take what you say as a given because the variable we are talking about is an unknown.

A note: Part of what you said doesn't make sense and i'm speaking of the second bolded.We are depending on hearsay that Rhaella was preggers with Dany when she left seeing as( and i doubt there was one-step early testing in Westeros).Jamie and Barristan would not know anything as she would not have been showing.Dany said she was just a quickening in her mom's womb when they left.That can't be verified.

All it takes is someone in authority or of some influence to say she is Rhaella's daughter.

To your last bolded i'm not sure how to answer that because it has nothing to do with Jon.

1.Were the KGs guarding someone? It didn't seem as they were guarding anyone.They were just 3 dudes standing outside a tower.Why? They were told to wait there,trying to figure out what to do or maybe there was someone inside who doesn't have to be Jon.So essentially no one to someone it just aint Jon.

Lastly, the two questions you are asking has nothing to do with who Jon's parents are.You are asking me questions based on a belief you already adhere to.So these questions are the wrong one to ask me.

 

Both these questions are incredibly relevant. The first because you need Dany's birth to be earlier for Jon to be Robert's son, the second because you claim Rhaegar didn't have any knowledge about Lyanna's abduction which raises the question as to what three members of the Kingsguard were doing mid-war standing outside a random tower if not to guard Jon/Lyanna. 

For one thing, as I already pointed out, unless Rhaegar lied to Jon Connington (why would he), Dany cannot be Rhaegar and Elia's daughter. Therefore, she must be Rhaella's daughter. If she did leave the city prior to Jaime sighting her, how does that change anything about when Dany was born? And what would be the point of lying about when she was born?

The second question also relates to Jon's birth... The common belief is that Rhaegar had them guarding the ToJ because Lyanna and Jon were in there. This makes sense because they would be guarding someone of royal blood. You posit that they were standing outside the ToJ to figure out what to do (for the entire war, apparently) or to guard someone else. Who else would they be guarding other than a Targaryen? All other Targaryens are accounted for. 

Additionally, this entire premise that they weren't guarding Lyanna is absurd. Look at Ned's chapter in GoT:

"'And now it begins,' said Ser Arthur Dayne...'No,' Ned said with sadness in his voice. 'Now it ends.' As [Ned and Arthur Dayne] came together in a rush of steel and shadow, he could head Lyanna screaming" 

Since it is clear that they were outside the tower that Lyanna was in, it follows that they were guarding Lyanna and Jon because even you don't doubt that Jon is Lyanna's child. Why would they guard Lyanna and her child if that child is a Baratheon? They could just enter the tower and take Robert's child hostage!

[wolfmaid7]

On 3/20/2016 at 4:37 PM, Gaius Gracchus said:

Both these questions are incredibly relevant. The first because you need Dany's birth to be earlier for Jon to be Robert's son, the second because you claim Rhaegar didn't have any knowledge about Lyanna's abduction which raises the question as to what three members of the Kingsguard were doing mid-war standing outside a random tower if not to guard Jon/Lyanna. 

For one thing, as I already pointed out, unless Rhaegar lied to Jon Connington (why would he), Dany cannot be Rhaegar and Elia's daughter. Therefore, she must be Rhaella's daughter. If she did leave the city prior to Jaime sighting her, how does that change anything about when Dany was born? And what would be the point of lying about when she was born?

The second question also relates to Jon's birth... The common belief is that Rhaegar had them guarding the ToJ because Lyanna and Jon were in there. This makes sense because they would be guarding someone of royal blood. You posit that they were standing outside the ToJ to figure out what to do (for the entire war, apparently) or to guard someone else. Who else would they be guarding other than a Targaryen? All other Targaryens are accounted for. 

Additionally, this entire premise that they weren't guarding Lyanna is absurd. Look at Ned's chapter in GoT:

"'And now it begins,' said Ser Arthur Dayne...'No,' Ned said with sadness in his voice. 'Now it ends.' As [Ned and Arthur Dayne] came together in a rush of steel and shadow, he could head Lyanna screaming" 

Since it is clear that they were outside the tower that Lyanna was in, it follows that they were guarding Lyanna and Jon because even you don't doubt that Jon is Lyanna's child. Why would they guard Lyanna and her child if that child is a Baratheon? They could just enter the tower and take Robert's child hostage!

My "belief" concerning why Rhaegar _ is irrelevant because that has nothing to do with Jon and his parentage.All that matters is disproving the individual Jamie saw being Rhaella.Based on literary verbage and the themes of this book regarding individuals concealing or being concealed;based on Viserys's account and Dany's memory that individual that Jamie saw was not Rhaella so you can't use that as a timeline to establish Jon's birth.

Your second point is circular reasoning because your essentially saying the KGs couldn't be there for no other reason except to guard Lyanna or guard baby Jon which is in dispute moment.Next there's no indication as to when the KGs got there.Their reply to Ned as to why they weren't where he thought they would be...They said "far away" so wherever they were it wasn't at the tower.So your statement about them standing there for the entire duration of the war isn't accurate.

I was just about to write a whole long bit about a Kamakazee move and or somebody else being there but it doesn't matter.Why because the KGs presence at the tower doesn't say who Jon's parents are. 

He could have Targ blood,Stark blood or Baratheon blood and all three are reasons why possibly he is being guarded( if he was there) its a confounder that's not unique because there are 3 options that could work.

You keep telling my about Rhaegar lying to Jon Con....About what exactly as it relates to this?

Lastly,and this has been argued against ad nauseam.Its a dream Ned is having.Its not literal something that every human can attest to and something that GRRM himself cautions his reader about....This is a dream.Meaning the elements in the dream can be symbolic and non sequential.So them occuring in the dream together doesn't mean that in real life they took place in the same space and or time.

Lets look at  the only two thing i have to bring up about the dream to indicate what i mean.

In GOTs when Ned is in the crypt awake remembering Lyanna's death he had this to say.

"Promise me, Ned. The fever had taken her strength and her voice had been faint as a whisper"

Now let's look at the piece you glady provided

"'And now it begins,' said Ser Arthur Dayne...'No,' Ned said with sadness in his voice. 'Now it ends.' As they came together in a rush of steel .........., he could head Lyanna screaming"

Tell me....What do you think is wrong here?

[Blushingfae]

On 3/23/2016 at 8:37 PM, wolfmaid7 said:

"Promise me, Ned. The fever had taken her strength and her voice had been faint as a whisper"

Now let's look at the piece you glady provided

"'And now it begins,' said Ser Arthur Dayne...'No,' Ned said with sadness in his voice. 'Now it ends.' As they came together in a rush of steel .........., he could head Lyanna screaming"

Tell me....What do you think is wrong here?

Nothing is wrong. She was in childbirth when the fight began, the baby was born during the fight. By the time Ned got to her, she was dying. None of the guards were able to help her with the birth, they were downstairs fighting.

[TimJames]

Storywise, I think I prefer Jon Snow being Rhaegar's Son.

The reason bastards are disliked is because people believe they are "tainted", that being conceived by weakness or adultery makes them treacherous or dishonorable. If Jon Snow was conceived by Rape, then that "taint" would be even worse.

However, while today children conceived of wedlock are not subject to ridicule, children conceived by rape are still treated as though they are tainted. The phrase "Rapist's Baby" is a derogatory term often used in modern times to suggest that having been conceived by rape makes a child guilty or undeserving of love or doomed to become like his father. 

So when someone conceived by rape saves the world with heroism, it tells the story of upbringing being infinitely more important than blood or conception circumstances (at least as far as personality is concerned). It forces us to accept a hero with origins that normally only get assigned to villains, to accept that it is an individual's actions and only his actions that defines him. 

[corbon]

10 hours ago, Blushingfae said:

Nothing is wrong. She was in childbirth when the fight began, the baby was born during the fight. By the time Ned got to her, she was dying. None of the guards were able to help her with the birth, they were downstairs fighting.

"I was with her when she died," Ned reminded the king. "She wanted to come home, to rest beside Brandon and Father." He could hear her still at times. Promise me, she had cried, in a room that smelled of blood and roses. Promise me, Ned. The fever had taken her strength and her voice had been faint as a whisper, but when he gave her his word, the fear had gone out of his sister's eyes.

Childbirth didn't take her strength, a fever did. The childbirth was likely days earlier as a fever takes time to rob strength and eventually kill.

Lyanna didn't scream at the ToJ. That was Ned's mind finding a place for Vayon Poole who was trying to wake him up. We know from their conversation about Robert's lechery that she called Ned 'Ned', not "Lord Eddard.

Their are aspects of the dream that are not 'real'. Ned's fellows were not wraiths. Lyanna didn't scream. There was no blood streaked sky, nor storm of blue rose petals. But the dream is still an old dream, and most of it is as it was in life.
Some people use these little dream unrealities to toss out any aspect of the dream they don't want to acknowledge. They ignore that Ned's very descriptor of the dream, the way he categorises this (old) dream as this particular dream, things which are not in the dream and thus not subject to dream-un-realities, tell us very clearly that this dream was about Lyanna in her bed of blood. They ignore that Ned assigning Vayon Pooles' interruption to Lyanna shows that his mind places her at the scene even if she never appears. But then, the qualities of their arguments have generally shown everyone exactly how much to respect their ideas...

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[wolfmaid7]

On 3/31/2016 at 8:22 AM, Blushingfae said:

Nothing is wrong. She was in childbirth when the fight began, the baby was born during the fight. By the time Ned got to her, she was dying. None of the guards were able to help her with the birth, they were downstairs fighting.

Yeah everthing is wrong with this its shows that Ned's dream is to be questioned because it is unreliable. I have no doubt there is truth in it and those truths are clear. Ned and a few others were in a fight at the tower Rhaegar called joy.Ned was present when Lyanna died in her bed of blood.Nothing tangible puts these two events happening at the toj at all or at the same time.

On 3/31/2016 at 4:21 PM, TimJames said:

Storywise, I think I prefer Jon Snow being Rhaegar's Son.

The reason bastards are disliked is because people believe they are "tainted", that being conceived by weakness or adultery makes them treacherous or dishonorable. If Jon Snow was conceived by Rape, then that "taint" would be even worse.

However, while today children conceived of wedlock are not subject to ridicule, children conceived by rape are still treated as though they are tainted. The phrase "Rapist's Baby" is a derogatory term often used in modern times to suggest that having been conceived by rape makes a child guilty or undeserving of love or doomed to become like his father. 

So when someone conceived by rape saves the world with heroism, it tells the story of upbringing being infinitely more important than blood or conception circumstances (at least as far as personality is concerned). It forces us to accept a hero with origins that normally only get assigned to villains, to accept that it is an individual's actions and only his actions that defines him. 

Hey if you prefer it story wise you prefer it story wise i cam't argue that.

On 4/1/2016 at 7:05 PM, corbon said:

"I was with her when she died," Ned reminded the king. "She wanted to come home, to rest beside Brandon and Father." He could hear her still at times. Promise me, she had cried, in a room that smelled of blood and roses. Promise me, Ned. The fever had taken her strength and her voice had been faint as a whisper, but when he gave her his word, the fear had gone out of his sister's eyes.

Childbirth didn't take her strength, a fever did. The childbirth was likely days earlier as a fever takes time to rob strength and eventually kill.

Lyanna didn't scream at the ToJ. That was Ned's mind finding a place for Vayon Poole who was trying to wake him up. We know from their conversation about Robert's lechery that she called Ned 'Ned', not "Lord Eddard.

Their are aspects of the dream that are not 'real'. Ned's fellows were not wraiths. Lyanna didn't scream. There was no blood streaked sky, nor storm of blue rose petals. But the dream is still an old dream, and most of it is as it was in life.
Some people use these little dream unrealities to toss out any aspect of the dream they don't want to acknowledge. They ignore that Ned's very descriptor of the dream, the way he categorises this (old) dream as this particular dream, things which are not in the dream and thus not subject to dream-un-realities, tell us very clearly that this dream was about Lyanna in her bed of blood. They ignore that Ned assigning Vayon Pooles' interruption to Lyanna shows that his mind places her at the scene even if she never appears. But then, the qualities of their arguments have generally shown everyone exactly how much to respect their ideas...

I actually agree with a little of what Corbon said ( and i'm speaking here to everyone) the only thing i disagree with is that childbirth had anything to do with Lyanna's fever. Also,a bit of a correction Ned said his" friends rode with him as they did in life" that's the context of that statement.Other than that it is still a dream an old one yes but subject to the nature of dreams.Some things may be real,or symbolic and the elements of these dreams need not take place in the same time or space.

I also disagree on the last because its is wrong logically.Ned's mind doesn't place Lyanna there its what you choose to believe.She was present in the dream yes, but it doesn't place here at the toj at all or at that point in time.

Ned's waking memory of the fight with the KGs doesn't place her there she is completely absent though every other detail is vivid.

Outside of Ned's dream which doesn't put here in the toj spatially or temporally in relation to the KGs fight.Put her there,lets see if "evidence" to that stick.

[TimJames]

On 4/3/2016 at 6:58 PM, wolfmaid7 said:

Hey if you prefer it story wise you prefer it story wise i cam't argue that.

I would also be happy if Jon Snow was Robert's Son, though a little bummed out if Jon Snow never has children of his own (meaning Robert and Lyanna's bloodline ends). But once I take the fandom into account, Jon Snow being Robert's Son would be absloutly wonderful. It would make so many fanatical RLJ Shippers lose their shit ... not that all RLJ shippers are fanatical, just that the ones who are act so arrogant about it. People claiming RLJ is canon, and verbally attacking anyone who says otherwise, gets old quickly. 

In any case, I only prefer Rhaegar as the father if Jon Snow's conception was under bad circumstances. I am absloutly repulsed by the idea of Jon Snow being a love child of Prince Irresponsible and Lady Hates-Her-Family and feel that such a scenario being true would ruin the book. 

Finally, you did a good job arguing your point. Good articulation, good evidence, and very polite too. If I was an english teacher, I'd give your thesis an A.

[wolfmaid7]

3 minutes ago, TimJames said:

I would also be happy if Jon Snow was Robert's Son, though a little bummed out if Jon Snow never has children of his own (meaning Robert and Lyanna's bloodline ends). But once I take the fandom into account, Jon Snow being Robert's Son would be absloutly wonderful. It would make so many fanatical RLJ Shippers lose their shit ... not that all RLJ shippers are fanatical, just that the ones who are act so arrogant about it. People claiming RLJ is canon, and verbally attacking anyone who says otherwise, gets old quickly. 

In any case, I only prefer Rhaegar as the father if Jon Snow's conception was under bad circumstances. I am absloutly repulsed by the idea of Jon Snow being a love child of Prince Irresponsible and Lady Hates-Her-Family and feel that such a scenario being true would ruin the book. 

Finally, you did a good job arguing your point. Good articulation, good evidence, and very polite too. If I was an english teacher, I'd give your thesis an A.

To be honest i would be happy if Jon was anybody else's son because i do have a personal bias against drunks.And Robert's behavior when Tywin laid Rhaegar's kids at his feet will forever leave a bad taste in my mouth.But that shouldn't play against what he was,how he felt and what was most likely the case with him and Lyanna.

For a longtime i did believe RLJ, hey i shamelessly admit to following the clues to that Red (Dragon) Herring.The clues to Robert and Lyanna fit more.

1.We have inside info into how Robert felt about Lyanna and these inside info gave us info regarding them which could be analyzed better.

2.The timeline actually works for them once you realize that Dany's origin is manifactured.

3. The Beltane at Harrenhall fits them like a glove and that is where Jon was concieved.

4. Not to mention there are plenty of parallels and clues linking Jon,Robert and Lyanna.

I love how GRRM does the mirroring between them and how he has time after time given us info dumps of Robert Jon's chapters.You see the same with Dany and the info dumps of Rhaegar in hers. They have been learning about their sires in each book.

 

Thank you on the props and thank you for being in the convo.

[TimJames]

12 minutes ago, wolfmaid7 said:

To be honest i would be happy if Jon was anybody else's son because i do have a personal bias against drunks.And Robert's behavior when Tywin laid Rhaegar's kids at his feet will forever leave a bad taste in my mouth.But that shouldn't play against what he was,how he felt and what was most likely the case with him and Lyanna.

For a longtime i did believe RLJ, hey i shamelessly admit to following the clues to that Red (Dragon) Herring.The clues to Robert and Lyanna fit more.

. . .

I love how GRRM does the mirroring between them and how he has time after time given us info dumps of Robert Jon's chapters.You see the same with Dany and the info dumps of Rhaegar in hers. They have been learning about their sires in each book.

 

Thank you on the props and thank you for being in the convo.

We all have personal bias; being able to admit them is admirable because it is rare. I too have a personal bias in regards to Robert Baratheon; around the time I first started reading the books I had lost a close family member to unnatural causes. I remembered how it affected me, and how it affected my family, and as a result was able to understand how Robert would try to seek solace in addictions and distractions. I'm sure I'd be less forgiving of Robert's mismanagement of the kingdom if I didn't have first hand experience with grieving.

His not being upset at the deaths of the Targaryen Children upset me at first. But when I opened a thread asking what Robert should have done, 3/4ths of the responses said Robert should have executed Gregor and Lorch (the direct killers) but let Tywin (the head conspirator) go scott free. 

It always upset me when people claim that Robert the same 15 years ago as he is when we meet him in the books. Robert having changed is literally the first thing Eddard noticed when he visited Winterfell. There's failure to notice details, then there's selective exclusion. 

No problem. It is easy to be part of intelligent conversations. 

[wolfmaid7]

2 hours ago, TimJames said:

We all have personal bias; being able to admit them is admirable because it is rare. I too have a personal bias in regards to Robert Baratheon; around the time I first started reading the books I had lost a close family member to unnatural causes. I remembered how it affected me, and how it affected my family, and as a result was able to understand how Robert would try to seek solace in addictions and distractions. I'm sure I'd be less forgiving of Robert's mismanagement of the kingdom if I didn't have first hand experience with grieving.

His not being upset at the deaths of the Targaryen Children upset me at first. But when I opened a thread asking what Robert should have done, 3/4ths of the responses said Robert should have executed Gregor and Lorch (the direct killers) but let Tywin (the head conspirator) go scott free. 

It always upset me when people claim that Robert the same 15 years ago as he is when we meet him in the books. Robert having changed is literally the first thing Eddard noticed when he visited Winterfell. There's failure to notice details, then there's selective exclusion. 

No problem. It is easy to be part of intelligent conversations. 

Yeah you are right about how grief could come into play with regards to his behavior latter on which certainly doesn't hinder the grand bastard maker from fathering the most popular bastard in the story.I agree with you on the perception of Robert now being the same as he was growing up.Ned clearly shot that notion to hell on several occassions recalling in delight at what he was but also when he saw moments of that Robert it made him happy.

 

[wolfmaid7]

On 1/6/2016 at 7:12 PM, sciteacher said:

The text absolutely supports what I say.

I'm not sure I completely understand your first point, but it seems you are pointing to his statement: Maester Luwin says bastards grow up faster than other children. I'm not sure what you think that means, but it doesn't mean they actually do age faster or that anyone tries to hold them back. It means that no one coddles and spoils them. They often aren't given the training and education the legitimate children are given. They can even be teased and taunted. As a result, they need to learn to stand up for themselves, the fend for themselves. They have to be savvy and mature.

Gilly and Dalla's babies were "of an age" --you'd have to watch them closely to figure out which was the older.

Sam and Gilly stood nearby. Her eyes were red and puffy, but the boy was in her arms, bundled tight. Whether it was her boy or Dalla's he could not be sure. He had only seen the two together a few times. Gilly's boy was older, Dalla's more robust, but they were close enough in age and size so that no one who did not know them well would be able to easily tell one from the other.

And a six month old versus a one year old?

A six month old is just beginning to sit up, they make sounds when they hear sounds (maybe not the same sound, there are many they can't make yet). They're just starting to sit alone and if you lift them up to their feet they will bounce, but they can't stand yet.  They'll look at you when you play games like peek a boo and smile, but they don't play back.

A one year old will hand you a book to get a story, they are walking, they follow simple directions (give me the spoon), they are beginning to speak at least trying to say words if not using a few. They play games (peek a boo) and help you dress them.

As far as how old Robb was when Catelyn returned to Winterfell, we don't really know. We know she came there "When the wars were over at last" and she says that she and Ned were separated for a year after their marriage.

Except according Cat Ned was very overprotective of Jon.He got the exact same treatment as his siblings;education,training.He even ate with them.The only difference is Cat's treatment of him.The quote you posted with Aemon and Gilly's baby goes to one of the points i made.Unless you are looking there's no way to tell.

Lastly,if we have no idea when Cat and Robb came to Winterfell put on top of that Cat settling in taking care of Robb dealing with all the crap of the rebellion who is going to focus on checking out babies to see who is bigger.Which doesn't matter because in truth a crap load of variables could affect how well they thrive.I don't these people are up to speed concerning the statges of development.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

On 4-4-2016 at 1:05 AM, wolfmaid7 said:

Lastly,if we have no idea when Cat and Robb came to Winterfell put on top of that Cat settling in taking care of Robb dealing with all the crap of the rebellion who is going to focus on checking out babies to see who is bigger.Which doesn't matter because in truth a crap load of variables could affect how well they thrive.I don't these people are up to speed concerning the statges of development.

That is not entirely true. We know that Ned and Cat spend the first year of their marriage apart. Seeing as how Robb appears to be been born around the time of the Sack (when exactly cannot be stated exactly), it would appear that roughly (cannot stress the word roughly enough) three months passed since war's end until Cat and Robb went to Winterfell.

So while we might not know exactly, we do have some general idea.