Heresy Project X+Y=J: Robert + Lyanna

[Ser Leftwich]

Jon was slender where Robb was muscular, dark where Robb was fair, graceful and quick where his half brother was strong and fast. - AGoT p. 15

In the OP, the above quote is used to describe Jon as "strong and fast." That is incorrect, the "strong and fast" is describing Robb, not Jon. This was either deliberate or sloppy, either way, it really damages the argument.

[wolfmaid7]

Jon was slender where Robb was muscular, dark where Robb was fair, graceful and quick where his half brother was strong and fast. - AGoT p. 15

In the OP, the above quote is used to describe Jon as "strong and fast." That is incorrect, the "strong and fast" is describing Robb, not Jon. This was either deliberate or sloppy, either way, it really damages the argument.

It was not deliberate nor sloppy (what ever the frack that means) .I'll explain to you why it was done that way in a bit but lets exculde the "one" gripe you brought up there is like 5 description that speak of Jon having exceptional ability in that department and that somehow just went over your head???? As i said biased.

To get back to your point did you not see that i bolded Robb right ? The reason i bolded Robb was to contrast the two. It was also the same reason i made sure and bolded Em's description.These two are Jon's peers one way or the other and they have stature to go along with the strength.Both muscular and both strong there's nothing stand out about that.

Of the kids that we know are Robert's all of them have the stature to go along with the strength again nothing unique except they may be a bit young to display that power.But it makes sense to show not only the children who i would deem Jon's siblings without showing other's in his circle to highlight that for Jon it is an anomaly.

Jon's power is an anomally for him even as a Warg else this would be the same across the board for his siblings as well.

[wolfmaid7]

And now to get to something esle.

If the rebuttal you present caves under the rebuttal itself then you have a big problem and that is especially true of you Ygrain.

So this is what we have thus far.

Ygrain has put forth that Robert woudn't attempt to sleep with Lyanna out of respect for the family and love for Ned.However,she asserts that Robert, who according to her wouldn't sleep with Lyanna for the above reason would cheat on her.

Now somebody with a shred logic and sense tell me what's wrong with the above......If your honest.

Rhaenys Targ and others with respect to Dany's birth assert that Viserys made a mistake that he was 8yrs old yet what they use as proof is Visery's account to Dany.And it should be noted that if Dany was ever on DS it isn't proof she was born there nor does it specify what age she could be and still considered a babe.We have children 2,3,4 being called babes.But the kicker in this is arguing that Viserys made a mistake while using said mistake as proof in favor of the current thinking.....Someone with logic and sense tell me what's wrong with this......If your honest.

For 3 pages one issue no one seems to want to touch and it is understandable why.That is Jamie didn't see Rhaella leaving.And the author who could have simply wrote Jamie saw Rhaella leave and forget the whole "cloaked and hooded" getting into the Royal wheelhouse chose not to. I wonder why.When finally given and answer what was the reply? " Well it could have still been her" or " it doesn't make it so."

So Ygrain you really think before making the statement that i'm failing at understanding literary analysis? Really? If so gladly, i take that anyday over failing at exhibiting critical thinking skills and sheer logic.

Thus far i haven't heard anything intelligible to refute anything i've said except really horrid rebuttals from people to neck deep in denial to realize how silly the rebuttals are.( Not everyone some people asked really good questions)

Even what would be the simplest thing Robert's "gene" oh my gosh its like black paint over glasses you all don't even realize that Ned and Arryn were comparing Baratheon mating to only women with fair hair. That is the only thing GRRM showed us and i wonder why?

And even worse, it's there as evidence via the only Eastermont we are shown that they have Brown hair so anyone who took 1 genetics class can figure out what that means.

Sweeping arguements and what ever the hell Ygrain thinks she was trying to accomplish only yielded one thing...Nonsensical rebuttals that kick there own selves.

[The Ned's Little Girl]

Thus far i haven't heard anything intelligible to refute anything i've said except really horrid rebuttals from people to neck deep in denial to realize how silly the rebuttals are.

Just one more comment on this nonsense topic and then I am done.

It is perfectly possible for people to completely understand your point, your topic, your thesis - and still disagree with it. Just because someone disagrees with you does not mean they are "in denial" or dishonest.

Your arguments are worthless and have next-to-nothing to do with the text as it was written by GRRM. 80% of your theories are completely made up and the other 20% are simply your assertions that you provide in lieu of proof.

I refuse to further endanger my brain cells with this rubbish.

[Ygrain]

Ygrain has put forth that Robert woudn't attempt to sleep with Lyanna out of respect for the family and love for Ned.However,she asserts that Robert, who according to her wouldn't sleep with Lyanna for the above reason would cheat on her.

Now somebody with a shred logic and sense tell me what's wrong with the above......If your honest.

The former is breaking a highly tabooized social rule (deflowering a maiden), the latter is doing what is socially aceptable and it is what Robert has been doing all along. You not seeing the difference is not my problem.

For 3 pages one issue no one seems to want to touch and it is understandable why.That is Jamie didn't see Rhaella leaving.And the author who could have simply wrote Jamie saw Rhaella leave and forget the whole "cloaked and hooded" getting into the Royal wheelhouse chose not to. I wonder why.When finally given and answer what was the reply? " Well it could have still been her" or " it doesn't make it so."

 You must have missed the part about Rhaella coming out very badly from last rape, both in-book and in those last couple of pages, which very much explains why she wanted to be hooded.

So Ygrain you really think before making the statement that i'm failing at understanding literary analysis? Really? If so gladly, i take that anyday over failing at exhibiting critical thinking skills and sheer logic.

I take that as a compliment.

Thus far i haven't heard anything intelligible to refute anything i've said except really horrid rebuttals from people to neck deep in denial to realize how silly the rebuttals are.( Not everyone some people asked really good questions)

And have done a splendid job actually avoiding answers to questions you didn't like.

Even what would be the simplest thing Robert's "gene" oh my gosh its like black paint over glasses you all don't even realize that Ned and Arryn were comparing Baratheon mating to only women with fair hair. That is the only thing GRRM showed us and i wonder why?

And even worse, it's there as evidence via the only Eastermont we are shown that they have Brown hair so anyone who took 1 genetics class can figure out what that means.

That GRRM made his own version of genetics.

 

Sweeping arguements and what ever the hell Ygrain thinks she was trying to accomplish only yielded one thing...Nonsensical rebuttals that kick there own selves.

What have I accomplished? Let's see what your defence of your theory entails:

- assertions of events lacking any textual support

- rendering chunks of text untrue, bogus and the like, despite corroborating sources

- handwaving things that do not fit

- failing to provide a conscise alternative scenario that would fit with the events as described

- going for personal attacks instead of sticking to the point

 

Yeah, mission accomplished. Thank you very much for your cooperation.

 

 

[Chebyshov]

Oh for the love of gods, Martin is writing a work of literature, not some foolishly complicated Scooby Doo mystery. Look at the goddamn themes. R+L=J is the only scaffolding that actually makes ANY sense to Ned's actions in AGoT. His internalized guilt, his struggle with internal vs. external honor, his reaction to Robert's "dragonspawn" remark...everything. Jon's parentage is less of a "mystery" (it's something that lives entirely in subtext to the reader, sure), and more an integral thematic element to the story. And it's bad enough that we have all these hipster theories to deny the "obvious" (WHO CARES?), but ROBERT?

What would this do? Seriously? What would this do other than undercut every single theme in Ned's arc, or undercut every single thing we know about Robert and Lyanna's characterizations. Theories based on what is "technically not impossible" is just an illogical approach to literary analysis, I'm sorry.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

<Snp>

Hey Cheby! It's been a while  

[Chebyshov]

Oh just to previously add to my rant, if this was truly what Martin is going for, he went about it in an incredibly odd way, no?  

Hey Cheby! It's been a while  

Hey buddy! Still fighting the good fight, I see?

[nanother]

OK, I'll bite. 

And now to get to something esle.

If the rebuttal you present caves under the rebuttal itself then you have a big problem and that is especially true of you Ygrain.

So this is what we have thus far.

Ygrain has put forth that Robert woudn't attempt to sleep with Lyanna out of respect for the family and love for Ned.However,she asserts that Robert, who according to her wouldn't sleep with Lyanna for the above reason would cheat on her.

Yes, Ned Stark might see both of those things as dishonouring Lyanna. Clearly, he expects (or hopes anyway) Robert to change his ways after the betrothal (and NOT because he expects Lyanna to start shagging w him right away). OTOH, Robert sees nothing wrong with sleeping around after marriage during a military campaign, hell, even Cat doesn't - Ned's the only one who sees it as 'dishonouring' (and he might be playing it up, there). So I can see Robert making an honest good effort to restrain himself for Ned's (and Lyanna's) sake, but still not succeeding completely and permanently. However, just about anyone agrees that deflowering a maid outside marriage is dishonouring her. In a bethrotal pact -  well, it's betrothal, and not yet marriage, for a reason. It's a political deal where Lyanna's maidenhead is the merchandise, and it's not to be touched until both parties agree it's appropriate. Even Robert might be able to grasp this concept (granted, he might not), so he'd be more likely to make an effort and succeed. So, without looking back to the exact context, I ultimately don't see why anyone should be derided for suggesting this scenario.

 

Rhaenys Targ and others with respect to Dany's birth assert that Viserys made a mistake that he was 8yrs old yet what they use as proof is Visery's account to Dany.And it should be noted that if Dany was ever on DS it isn't proof she was born there nor does it specify what age she could be and still considered a babe.We have children 2,3,4 being called babes.But the kicker in this is arguing that Viserys made a mistake while using said mistake as proof in favor of the current thinking.....Someone with logic and sense tell me what's wrong with this......If your honest.

 

For 3 pages one issue no one seems to want to touch and it is understandable why.That is Jamie didn't see Rhaella leaving.And the author who could have simply wrote Jamie saw Rhaella leave and forget the whole "cloaked and hooded" getting into the Royal wheelhouse chose not to. I wonder why.When finally given and answer what was the reply? " Well it could have still been her" or " it doesn't make it so."

Here I'm leaning towards agreeing with you. To play the devil's advocate, Martin had to say something along the lines of 'her clothing obscured any injuries she might have had', because that's the context Jaime remembers. And hooded cloaks are pretty much the standard travelling gear (yes, I actually did a search for 'hood' and 'cloak').

The queen had been cloaked and hooded as she climbed inside the royal wheelhouse that would take her down Aegon's High Hill to the waiting ship, but he heard her maids whispering after she was gone. They said the queen looked as if some beast had savaged her, clawing at her thighs and chewing on her breasts.

OTOH ... the injuries listed would be concealed by just about any piece of clothing. Also, half the time when someone travels with hood up, it's to protect against the weather ... but in the other half, it's to conceal their identiy. Cat, riding back North; Edric Storm fleeing Dragonstone; Cersei visiting Ned (although her bruise is revealed when she throws her hood back, so that could go both ways); Sansa fleeing after the Purple Wedding.... Other notable hooded cloaked figures are Uncat and whichever witght want after LC Mormont; and Coldhands.

I'm stumped on the significance, though, in terms of making Dany older than she is thought to be. The facts: Viserys was at Dragonstone for some time - the only point of contention is when he got there. That Darry spirited him and some baby away, can also be considered fact. That someone believed to be Rhaella (including by her own son Viserys) gave birth and died during the big summer storm, seems also very hard to get around. Now, if that woman was Rhaella, then something must have happened to the child, and Dany had to be smuggled in its place somehow. In htis case I don't see why it'd matter when she left KL and whether she went elsewhere first. If it wasn't Rhaella giving birth on DS, but she went off to ... Dorne? ... to give birth to Dany, then Dany would have to be swapped for that other baby somehow. That seems more viable, but still a lot to explain. What happened to Rhaella? To that other baby? Also, if she's Rhaella's, she'd have to have been at least 6-7 months along to keep the age distance with Jon. It's possible for a pregnancy to go unnoticed for so long, but a bit weird considering it was a Royal pregnancy. Do you have a theory about the specifics of such an exchange?

[wolfmaid7]

OK, I'll bite. 

Yes, Ned Stark might see both of those things as dishonouring Lyanna. Clearly, he expects (or hopes anyway) Robert to change his ways after the betrothal (and NOT because he expects Lyanna to start shagging w him right away). OTOH, Robert sees nothing wrong with sleeping around after marriage during a military campaign, hell, even Cat doesn't - Ned's the only one who sees it as 'dishonouring' (and he might be playing it up, there). So I can see Robert making an honest good effort to restrain himself for Ned's (and Lyanna's) sake, but still not succeeding completely and permanently. However, just about anyone agrees that deflowering a maid outside marriage is dishonouring her. In a bethrotal pact -  well, it's betrothal, and not yet marriage, for a reason. It's a political deal where Lyanna's maidenhead is the merchandise, and it's not to be touched until both parties agree it's appropriate. Even Robert might be able to grasp this concept (granted, he might not), so he'd be more likely to make an effort and succeed. So, without looking back to the exact context, I ultimately don't see why anyone should be derided for suggesting this scenario.

 

 

Here I'm leaning towards agreeing with you. To play the devil's advocate, Martin had to say something along the lines of 'her clothing obscured any injuries she might have had', because that's the context Jaime remembers. And hooded cloaks are pretty much the standard travelling gear (yes, I actually did a search for 'hood' and 'cloak').

The queen had been cloaked and hooded as she climbed inside the royal wheelhouse that would take her down Aegon's High Hill to the waiting ship, but he heard her maids whispering after she was gone. They said the queen looked as if some beast had savaged her, clawing at her thighs and chewing on her breasts.

OTOH ... the injuries listed would be concealed by just about any piece of clothing. Also, half the time when someone travels with hood up, it's to protect against the weather ... but in the other half, it's to conceal their identiy. Cat, riding back North; Edric Storm fleeing Dragonstone; Cersei visiting Ned (although her bruise is revealed when she throws her hood back, so that could go both ways); Sansa fleeing after the Purple Wedding.... Other notable hooded cloaked figures are Uncat and whichever witght want after LC Mormont; and Coldhands.

I'm stumped on the significance, though, in terms of making Dany older than she is thought to be. The facts: Viserys was at Dragonstone for some time - the only point of contention is when he got there. That Darry spirited him and some baby away, can also be considered fact. That someone believed to be Rhaella (including by her own son Viserys) gave birth and died during the big summer storm, seems also very hard to get around. Now, if that woman was Rhaella, then something must have happened to the child, and Dany had to be smuggled in its place somehow. In htis case I don't see why it'd matter when she left KL and whether she went elsewhere first. If it wasn't Rhaella giving birth on DS, but she went off to ... Dorne? ... to give birth to Dany, then Dany would have to be swapped for that other baby somehow. That seems more viable, but still a lot to explain. What happened to Rhaella? To that other baby? Also, if she's Rhaella's, she'd have to have been at least 6-7 months along to keep the age distance with Jon. It's possible for a pregnancy to go unnoticed for so long, but a bit weird considering it was a Royal pregnancy. Do you have a theory about the specifics of such an exchange?

For the first part of your query it is 100% true culture dictates that the appropriate time for deflowering to take place is the marriage bed.We are on the same page there. The text indicates and i put the evidence upthread that it frequently doesn't happen.For one reason or the other there is a culture of noble women shagging outside of marriage. We see it several times in the text. We also see it is what Joff wanted to do with Sansa; shag her as soon as she had her moonblood and get her pregnant ofcourse he would have married her after he was sure she was pregant and i can see the logic in that.He'd be certain he married someone fertile and they could just play off the date no one would care because whose going to say something.

Which brings me back to Robert and Lyanna and why Ned would be upset and why that entire reasoning makes no difference or sense.Even if Ned suspected this is he going to ask Robert or Lyanna? You see the problem there? it would be innappropriate for him to ask that ;consider his response to Robert after Robert began to pry about Wylla. That's something you won't do because that in itself is a dishonor.

The next question is which one of the idiots, Robert or Lyanna is going to tell anyone they had sex at Harrenhall? Why would they do that? So you see why the question and the logic of Ned or any family member getting upset makes no sense? 

 

The Dany part i'll come back to later......Ygrain and NLG i'll get back to you later as well. For the record i don't have a problem with disagreements hell i welcome it but its got to make sense and the rebuttal with Robert and why he wouldn't shag Lyanna doesn't make sense to its core.The above reason for the 100th time.

They are protected by  " don't ask don't tell."

Until someone finds out which someone did.Then s**t might hit the fan.

[Pancakes1800]

The problem is you started out with 1 theory: Robert + Lyanna = Jon, but you have to change the story in order to get it to fit.  You have to change events and information that we are told in the text and you have to create your own events even if there's no textual evidence to say this event happened.  Then instead of 1 theory, you have 5, then you have 10.  How confident are you in this theory? If I made a bet with you that said if Jon is the son Rhaegar and Lyanna then you would owe me $1,000,000 and if Jon is the Robert of Lyanna then I would owe you $1,000,000, would you take it?

[wolfmaid7]

The problem is you started out with 1 theory: Robert + Lyanna = Jon, but you have to change the story in order to get it to fit.  You have to change events and information that we are told in the text and you have to create your own events even if there's no textual evidence to say this event happened.  Then instead of 1 theory, you have 5, then you have 10.  How confident are you in this theory? If I made a bet with you that said if Jon is the son Rhaegar and Lyanna then you would owe me $1,000,000 and if Jon is the Robert of Lyanna then I would owe you $1,000,000, would you take it?

Do you have that money to spare? If you don't have that money then don't bet.You don't know in my late teens i may have invested a lot of money in Google when it first came out.You never know.Could have a lot of land to oversees you just never know.So again if you don't have that money then i wouldn't suggest it.

This isn't about changing the story.I don't have to do that.The only thing i have to do is analyze what's being given as proof. This is also about recognizing the story that GRRM is writing, one that plays heavily on perception and utilizing the unreliable narrator.So do you accept what the story says or do you look at the story more deeply. 

The story says Ned is Jon's father....That's a done deal we should all just quite it and enjoy.We don't though because elements of that doesn't make sense.Its the same with this .Over and over Martin through characters in this story have told us over and over the importance of using our senses seeing what's there instead of what people tell us.

Dany says she was born during the worse Storm Westeros has ever seen. If true that should also be collaborated in the text somehow shouldn't.Somebody else should have brought that up in relation.People make mistakes that is very true but some things are soild as rock and you can tell events by them.

If someone says they saw something and then gives a description of what they really saw does it makes sense.What did they really see.

We hear the story was about winning Lyanna back because she got kidnapped yet none of the people who suppose to care about her acted as if that was the case.In fact when you look at what was said, she had nothing to do with the events except it seems getting Brandon to KL and even his words don't evoke that his sister was missing.

Ned leaves in a cold rage to go and fight the rest of the war( his internal monologue) and no mention of Lyanna?

And i'm changing the story you say? Really??? No i'm looking at it critically without blinders that's all. 

The truth is some people are in denial about the evidence because it doesn't fit their notion of what happen.

The evidence mythically and logically support this and no one has presented anything that says otherwise and i'm sorry but lillogical statements such as Ned wouldn't be ok with Robert having sex with Lyanna while they were bethrothed is the kind of thinking that really makes me laugh out loud.

Moreso because people who accuse others of not understanding text have no clue what is wrong with that statement.

By the way i'm 98% sure he's Robert's and Lyanna's

Rhaegar isn't even on the radar for this as the guy who did the deed. As a scapegoat yes ( the poor sod) but that's it.

 

 

[Pancakes1800]

Do you have that money to spare? If you don't have that money then don't bet.You don't know in my late teens i may have invested a lot of money in Google when it first came out.You never know.Could have a lot of land to oversees you just never know.So again if you don't have that money then i wouldn't suggest it.

This isn't about changing the story.I don't have to do that.The only thing i have to do is analyze what's being given as proof. This is also about recognizing the story that GRRM is writing, one that plays heavily on perception and utilizing the unreliable narrator.So do you accept what the story says or do you look at the story more deeply. 

The story says Ned is Jon's father....That's a done deal we should all just quite it and enjoy.We don't though because elements of that doesn't make sense.Its the same with this .Over and over Martin through characters in this story have told us over and over the importance of using our senses seeing what's there instead of what people tell us.

Dany says she was born during the worse Storm Westeros has ever seen. If true that should also be collaborated in the text somehow shouldn't.Somebody else should have brought that up in relation.People make mistakes that is very true but some things are soild as rock and you can tell events by them.

If someone says they saw something and then gives a description of what they really saw does it makes sense.What did they really see.

We hear the story was about winning Lyanna back because she got kidnapped yet none of the people who suppose to care about her acted as if that was the case.In fact when you look at what was said, she had nothing to do with the events except it seems getting Brandon to KL and even his words don't evoke that his sister was missing.

Ned leaves in a cold rage to go and fight the rest of the war( his internal monologue) and no mention of Lyanna?

And i'm changing the story you say? Really??? No i'm looking at it critically without blinders that's all. 

The truth is some people are in denial about the evidence because it doesn't fit their notion of what happen.

The evidence mythically and logically support this and no one has presented anything that says otherwise and i'm sorry but lillogical statements such as Ned wouldn't be ok with Robert having sex with Lyanna while they were bethrothed is the kind of thinking that really makes me laugh out loud.

Moreso because people who accuse others of not understanding text have no clue what is wrong with that statement.

By the way i'm 98% sure he's Robert's and Lyanna's

Rhaegar isn't even on the radar for this as the guy who did the deed. As a scapegoat yes ( the poor sod) but that's it.

 

 

Do I have that money? No, but I would still make the bet because I'm 100% confident I'd win.  For your theory to work, Jon and Dany both need to be a year older and yet nothing suggests this at all(I've read your theory, but I don't see it).  Making 2 characters a year older than they actually are is changing the story since you have to go out of your way to explain it.  Why nobody at Winterfell realized that Jon was a year older than Robb even though Jon might have been able to start walking before Cat even got to Winterfell?  You have to explain why Lyanna was at TOJ, how she died if not childbirth, etc.  If you want to believe this theory, go ahead, but you're going to be incredibly disappointed when it doesn't happen.

[Wall Flower]

Sorry, Wolfmaid, I can see you're very committed to your theory but like a lot of posters I'm pretty certain that Rhaegar and Lyanna are Jon's parents. You haven't really produced anything that would change my mind and have given us some rather convoluted explanations to try to fit the textual clues into your theory.

There is literally nothing in the text to suggest that Robert and Lyanna had sex other than your rather idiosyncratic interpretation of 'Robert will never keep to one bed' actually meaning 'I better shag his brains out if I want to keep the man I have no choice about marrying happy'. Meanwhile even Robert himself assumes that Rhaegar and Lyanna had a sexual relationship of some sort.  I'm still confused about what you think happened to Lyanna and why she would not simply tell her betrothed if she became pregnant to him at Harrenhall.

I agree that there are a lot of gaps in what we know about the disappearance of Lyanna and, for a time, Rhaegar. However, that doesn't mean that Robert being the father fills in any of those gaps.

As to why nobody seems to care about Lyanna during the rebellion - well look to how hard Robb tried to get his sisters back in the WOT5K. Once Aerys' murderous actions kicked in, the issue moved well beyond Lyanna. Robert and Ned were fighting a war for their lives and inheritance and in a sexist society like Westeros that takes first priority over missing girls. In any case, Robert specifically says that it was the girl he fought for, not the throne.

Even if Dany's birth proves to be other than what we believe, that still leaves the issue of Jon and Robb being considered to be 'of an age' from the time that Cat first arrived with her son in Winterfell (when Jon still had a wetnurse). You haven't really provided any convincing evidence to suggest that Jon could be significantly older than Robb - as he would have to be to have been conceived at Harrenhall.

The issue of the 'gold yielding to the coal' is relevant to show that Robert couldn't be the father of Cersei's children. However, all the bastards of Robert that we do meet are specifically noted to be like him, irrespective of what coloured hair their mother may have had.  Meanwhile, we know that one of Rhaegar's children looked like her mother.

So, thanks for generating some interesting discussion but still not convinced.

[wolfmaid7]

OK, I'll bite. 

Yes, Ned Stark might see both of those things as dishonouring Lyanna. Clearly, he expects (or hopes anyway) Robert to change his ways after the betrothal (and NOT because he expects Lyanna to start shagging w him right away). OTOH, Robert sees nothing wrong with sleeping around after marriage during a military campaign, hell, even Cat doesn't - Ned's the only one who sees it as 'dishonouring' (and he might be playing it up, there). So I can see Robert making an honest good effort to restrain himself for Ned's (and Lyanna's) sake, but still not succeeding completely and permanently. However, just about anyone agrees that deflowering a maid outside marriage is dishonouring her. In a bethrotal pact -  well, it's betrothal, and not yet marriage, for a reason. It's a political deal where Lyanna's maidenhead is the merchandise, and it's not to be touched until both parties agree it's appropriate. Even Robert might be able to grasp this concept (granted, he might not), so he'd be more likely to make an effort and succeed. So, without looking back to the exact context, I ultimately don't see why anyone should be derided for suggesting this scenario.

 

 

Here I'm leaning towards agreeing with you. To play the devil's advocate, Martin had to say something along the lines of 'her clothing obscured any injuries she might have had', because that's the context Jaime remembers. And hooded cloaks are pretty much the standard travelling gear (yes, I actually did a search for 'hood' and 'cloak').

The queen had been cloaked and hooded as she climbed inside the royal wheelhouse that would take her down Aegon's High Hill to the waiting ship, but he heard her maids whispering after she was gone. They said the queen looked as if some beast had savaged her, clawing at her thighs and chewing on her breasts.

OTOH ... the injuries listed would be concealed by just about any piece of clothing. Also, half the time when someone travels with hood up, it's to protect against the weather ... but in the other half, it's to conceal their identiy. Cat, riding back North; Edric Storm fleeing Dragonstone; Cersei visiting Ned (although her bruise is revealed when she throws her hood back, so that could go both ways); Sansa fleeing after the Purple Wedding.... Other notable hooded cloaked figures are Uncat and whichever witght want after LC Mormont; and Coldhands.

I'm stumped on the significance, though, in terms of making Dany older than she is thought to be. The facts: Viserys was at Dragonstone for some time - the only point of contention is when he got there. That Darry spirited him and some baby away, can also be considered fact. That someone believed to be Rhaella (including by her own son Viserys) gave birth and died during the big summer storm, seems also very hard to get around. Now, if that woman was Rhaella, then something must have happened to the child, and Dany had to be smuggled in its place somehow. In htis case I don't see why it'd matter when she left KL and whether she went elsewhere first. If it wasn't Rhaella giving birth on DS, but she went off to ... Dorne? ... to give birth to Dany, then Dany would have to be swapped for that other baby somehow. That seems more viable, but still a lot to explain. What happened to Rhaella? To that other baby? Also, if she's Rhaella's, she'd have to have been at least 6-7 months along to keep the age distance with Jon. It's possible for a pregnancy to go unnoticed for so long, but a bit weird considering it was a Royal pregnancy. Do you have a theory about the specifics of such an exchange?

Nanother i think i answered you right?

Oh for the love of gods, Martin is writing a work of literature, not some foolishly complicated Scooby Doo mystery. Look at the goddamn themes. R+L=J is the only scaffolding that actually makes ANY sense to Ned's actions in AGoT. His internalized guilt, his struggle with internal vs. external honor, his reaction to Robert's "dragonspawn" remark...everything. Jon's parentage is less of a "mystery" (it's something that lives entirely in subtext to the reader, sure), and more an integral thematic element to the story. And it's bad enough that we have all these hipster theories to deny the "obvious" (WHO CARES?), but ROBERT?

What would this do? Seriously? What would this do other than undercut every single theme in Ned's arc, or undercut every single thing we know about Robert and Lyanna's characterizations. Theories based on what is "technically not impossible" is just an illogical approach to literary analysis, I'm sorry.

If we look at the themes then no RLJ isn't the only one that makes sense not by a longshot thus you may need to extend a bit on what themes you think are there.It actually doesn't undercut any characterizations of Lyanna and Robert you all just say things like this and i swear its just to say it. What chracaterization would it undercut please enlighten.

What would this do to the story? It would explain Ned's behavior fit with the current narrative etc.

 

The former is breaking a highly tabooized social rule (deflowering a maiden), the latter is doing what is socially aceptable and it is what Robert has been doing all along. You not seeing the difference is not my problem.

 You must have missed the part about Rhaella coming out very badly from last rape, both in-book and in those last couple of pages, which very much explains why she wanted to be hooded.

I take that as a compliment.

And have done a splendid job actually avoiding answers to questions you didn't like.

That GRRM made his own version of genetics.

 

What have I accomplished? Let's see what your defence of your theory entails:

- assertions of events lacking any textual support

- rendering chunks of text untrue, bogus and the like, despite corroborating sources

- handwaving things that do not fit

- failing to provide a conscise alternative scenario that would fit with the events as described

- going for personal attacks instead of sticking to the point

 

Yeah, mission accomplished. Thank you very much for your cooperation.

 

 

Ygrain for the love of all that is precious your first point is irrelevant on the basis that:

1. Ned would never ask such a question

2. Robert nor Lyanna would be foolish enough to volunteer that info

3. The " taboo" doesn't stop deflowering a maiden from happening.We have how many examples of this in the story? 

There goes another bogus rebuttal.....Out the door>>>>>>

4. The Rhealla situation. Oh dear me "you see what i have to deal with mother" Ygrain a "cloak and hood" was over kill her dress alone would have suffice.Unless she was heading out in tank top and a "poom poom shorts" the normal dress would have been good enough.Plus Ygrain the time between Jamie hearing Rhaella getting raped to the time he thought he saw her was not specified.Jamie just said he saw the queen one time after that incident.

Another bogus arguement...Out the door.

Let's see what my theory entails.

1. Evidence despite your failing attempts to deny it.

2.Rendering chunks of text untrue.... Nahhhh not untrue just seeing the truth behind the BS.

3. Handwaving things that don't fit i have nooo clue what your on about.

4. I don't need to provide an alternative to events and i'm not sure what you are talking about either. So you may need to run that by me again.You could have asked and i just forgot to answer.

5. I've not attacked anyone personally if i did it wasn't meant to be just pointing out what i believe is a failure of using logic.

 

So what does that tell us hmmm 

[sciteacher]

 

Dany says she was born during the worse Storm Westeros has ever seen. If true that should also be collaborated in the text somehow shouldn't.Somebody else should have brought that up in relation.People make mistakes that is very true but some things are soild as rock and you can tell events by them.

I'm not sure why you bring up Daenerys' birth to discuss Jon's age--and refuse to answer posts about the comparison between Jon and Robb as well as the relevant timeline events: Ned and Catelyn's marriage, the end of the war, their arrivals at Winterfell, etc

but there are textural references as to Dany being born on Dragonstone during a horrible storm (other than the dozen or so where she styles herself that way)..

"We have these tales coming from the east as well. A second Targaryen, and one whose blood no man can question. Daenerys Stormborn.""As mad as her father," declared Lord Mace Tyrell. A Dance with Dragons - Epilogue

"No," said Alleras. "It was Prince Rhaegar's young son Aegon whose head was dashed against the wall by the Lion of Lannister's brave men. We speak of Rhaegar's sister, born on Dragonstone before its fall. The one they called Daenerys."

"The Stormborn. I recall her now." Mollander lifted his tankard high, sloshing the cider that remained. "Here's to her!" He gulped, slammed his empty tankard down, belched, and wiped his mouth with the back of his hand. "Where's Rosey? Our rightful queen deserves another round of cider, wouldn't you say?"

Armen the Acolyte looked alarmed. "Lower your voice, fool. You should not even jape about such things. You never know who could be listening. The Spider has ears everywhere." A Feast for Crows - Prologue

 

"At the far end of the world," said Mace Tyrell. "Queen of Slaver's Bay, aye. She is welcome to it."

"On that we can agree," Ser Kevan said, "but the girl is of the blood of Aegon the Conqueror, and I do not think she will be content to remain in Meereen forever. If she should reach these shores and join her strength to Lord Connington and this prince of his, feigned or no … we must destroy Connington and his pretender now, before Daenerys Stormborn can come west." A Dance with Dragons - Epilogue

[wolfmaid7]

Sorry, Wolfmaid, I can see you're very committed to your theory but like a lot of posters I'm pretty certain that Rhaegar and Lyanna are Jon's parents. You haven't really produced anything that would change my mind and have given us some rather convoluted explanations to try to fit the textual clues into your theory.

There is literally nothing in the text to suggest that Robert and Lyanna had sex other than your rather idiosyncratic interpretation of 'Robert will never keep to one bed' actually meaning 'I better shag his brains out if I want to keep the man I have no choice about marrying happy'. Meanwhile even Robert himself assumes that Rhaegar and Lyanna had a sexual relationship of some sort.  I'm still confused about what you think happened to Lyanna and why she would not simply tell her betrothed if she became pregnant to him at Harrenhall.

I agree that there are a lot of gaps in what we know about the disappearance of Lyanna and, for a time, Rhaegar. However, that doesn't mean that Robert being the father fills in any of those gaps.

As to why nobody seems to care about Lyanna during the rebellion - well look to how hard Robb tried to get his sisters back in the WOT5K. Once Aerys' murderous actions kicked in, the issue moved well beyond Lyanna. Robert and Ned were fighting a war for their lives and inheritance and in a sexist society like Westeros that takes first priority over missing girls. In any case, Robert specifically says that it was the girl he fought for, not the throne.

Even if Dany's birth proves to be other than what we believe, that still leaves the issue of Jon and Robb being considered to be 'of an age' from the time that Cat first arrived with her son in Winterfell (when Jon still had a wetnurse). You haven't really provided any convincing evidence to suggest that Jon could be significantly older than Robb - as he would have to be to have been conceived at Harrenhall.

The issue of the 'gold yielding to the coal' is relevant to show that Robert couldn't be the father of Cersei's children. However, all the bastards of Robert that we do meet are specifically noted to be like him, irrespective of what coloured hair their mother may have had.  Meanwhile, we know that one of Rhaegar's children looked like her mother.

So, thanks for generating some interesting discussion but still not convinced.

First off my goal is not to change your mind so that's out.

1. I think you are getting my statements mixed up with Ygrain's.I never said the 1st bolded statement nor was it ever my meaning so that's clearly you and Ygrain's assertion not mind.Robert isn't assuming any such thing.That was an emotional utterance." How many times do you thing he raped your sister,how many hundread of time."

Is not a statement of actuallity just demonizing Rhaegar on Robert's part.

2. Lyanna panicked and bolted.Had she gone to Brandon's wedding it would become very evident she was preggers.

3.Wall flower you all keep accusing me of doing magic with the text,but you all are blatantly ignoring what's there to be seen.Ned's words.

a. They rose against the Targs to stop the murder of children

b.They set out to win a crown

c. Brandon heading to the Red Keep and demanding Rhaegar come out and die not asking anything about his sister.

Using these three alone and nothing else how could you look at that and make the statement you did?

4. You are misquoting this is what Robert said

“The gods be damned. It was a hollow victory they gave me. A crown ... it was the girl I prayed them for. Your sister, safe ... and mine again, as she was meant to be.” 

So as you can see you are completely wrong.Robert at the time he killed Rhaegar didn't know Lyanna was missing.

5. Theon was said to be "of an age" with Jon and Robb as stated on the text....He was three years older.Of an age is subjective that's why it souldn't be used as definitive.

The issue of Robert and the hair wrong again. Why was it used to show that Cersie's kids couldn't be Robert's ? Because it shows Baratheon genes are dominat to those of fair hair.

Barra's mother had "light red hair." So nooooo.

And hair isn't the only determinant .

[wolfmaid7]

 

I'm not sure why you bring up Daenerys' birth to discuss Jon's age--and refuse to answer posts about the comparison between Jon and Robb as well as the relevant timeline events: Ned and Catelyn's marriage, the end of the war, their arrivals at Winterfell, etc

but there are textural references as to Dany being born on Dragonstone during a horrible storm (other than the dozen or so where she styles herself that way)..

"We have these tales coming from the east as well. A second Targaryen, and one whose blood no man can question. Daenerys Stormborn.""As mad as her father," declared Lord Mace Tyrell. A Dance with Dragons - Epilogue

"No," said Alleras. "It was Prince Rhaegar's young son Aegon whose head was dashed against the wall by the Lion of Lannister's brave men. We speak of Rhaegar's sister, born on Dragonstone before its fall. The one they called Daenerys."

"The Stormborn. I recall her now." Mollander lifted his tankard high, sloshing the cider that remained. "Here's to her!" He gulped, slammed his empty tankard down, belched, and wiped his mouth with the back of his hand. "Where's Rosey? Our rightful queen deserves another round of cider, wouldn't you say?"

Armen the Acolyte looked alarmed. "Lower your voice, fool. You should not even jape about such things. You never know who could be listening. The Spider has ears everywhere." A Feast for Crows - Prologue

 

"At the far end of the world," said Mace Tyrell. "Queen of Slaver's Bay, aye. She is welcome to it."

"On that we can agree," Ser Kevan said, "but the girl is of the blood of Aegon the Conqueror, and I do not think she will be content to remain in Meereen forever. If she should reach these shores and join her strength to Lord Connington and this prince of his, feigned or no … we must destroy Connington and his pretender now, before Daenerys Stormborn can come west." A Dance with Dragons - Epilogue

I did answer this though under " Timelines and nameday throwaways section" so what is it that you want me to answer again.

Dude Dany gave herself the name Stormborn based on what Viserys told her.And i'm not denying her name and i'm not denying that she maynot have been born during a storm to be honest.

I'm saying the Storm that Dany says she in was the worse storm in Westrosi history thus it  was a regional one right? Even if it was a bit exaggerated it was a bad one right? Therefore there should be a record of it right as it would have had an effect on the whole region and thus people would have some experiance to match it.........So Where's this Storm Sciteacher?Where's this worse stom in relation to everyone else?

Love the play on the name by the way!!!

[sciteacher]

I did answer this though under " Timelines and nameday throwaways section" so what is it that you want me to answer again.

   Love the play on the name by the way!!!

Thanks for the comment on my user name.

Let's simplify the relevant timeline events of Jon and Robb's birthdates.

Catelyn says Robb was conceived the night Ned "took her maidenhood", presumably their wedding night. She could only have been positive of that if he rode back off to war the following morning.

[Catelyn] remembered her own childish disappointment, the first time she had laid eyes on Eddard Stark. She had pictured him as a younger version of his brother Brandon, but that was wrong. Ned was shorter and plainer of face, and so somber. He spoke courteously enough, but beneath the words she sensed a coolness that was all at odds with Brandon, whose mirths had been as wild as his rages. Even when he took her maidenhood, their love had more of duty to it than of passion. We made Robb that night, though; we made a king together. And after the war, at Winterfell, I had love enough for any woman, once I found the good sweet heart beneath Ned's solemn face. A Storm of Swords - Catelyn V

Catelyn learned of her husband's "bastard" during the first year of their marriage. We don't know when or how she learned about John--it could have been by message or she might not have known until she rode into Winterfell.

Many men fathered bastards. Catelyn had grown up with that knowledge. It came as no surprise to her, in the first year of her marriage, to learn that Ned had fathered a child on some girl chance met on campaign. He had a man's needs, after all, and they had spent that year apart, Ned off at war in the south while she remained safe in her father's castle at Riverrun. Her thoughts were more of Robb, the infant at her breast, than of the husband she scarcely knew. He was welcome to whatever solace he might find between battles. And if his seed quickened, she expected he would see to the child's needs.

He did more than that. The Starks were not like other men. Ned brought his bastard home with him, and called him "son" for all the north to see. When the wars were over at last, and Catelyn rode to Winterfell, Jon and his wet nurse had already taken up residence. A Game of Thrones - Catelyn II

 

IF Jon had been born before Robb, it would mean he was conceived before Catelyn married Ned, Ned would not have dishonored her. So, Jon was born after Robb. Since Catelyn and Ned were apart for one year, Jon had to have been born within three months of Robb. Because Jon was at Winterfell when they arrive, he was more likely born within a month of Robb (to have been old enough to travel).

 

Being "of an age" is  fairly specific. It means being just about the same age.

Gilly's baby and Dalla's were also of an age (though that isn't specifically said--they are referred to as being "close in age") From text both you and I have cited, [Jon] was of an age with Robb.

 

By the way, I can't find any mention of Theon being "of an age" with Jon and Robb. As you say, Theon was three years older. All I can find is a reference to them being the only kids around close enough in age for Theon to pay attention to:

Only Robb and his baseborn half brother Jon Snow had been old enough to be worth his notice. A Clash of Kings - Theon I

[SFDanny]

I did answer this though under " Timelines and nameday throwaways section" so what is it that you want me to answer again.

Dude Dany gave herself the name Stormborn based on what Viserys told her.And i'm not denying her name and i'm not denying that she maynot have been born during a storm to be honest.

I'm saying the Storm that Dany says she in was the worse storm in Westrosi history thus it  was a regional one right? Even if it was a bit exaggerated it was a bad one right? Therefore there should be a record of it right as it would have had an effect on the whole region and thus people would have some experiance to match it.........So Where's this Storm Sciteacher?Where's this worse stom in relation to everyone else?

Love the play on the name by the way!!!

Where do you get the quote showing Daenerys gave herself the name "Stormborn"? I don't think so, Wolfmaid, it would be very odd for a young girl to come up with that on her own. Perhaps Darry came up with it when he spread the news of her birth, but the infant child had nothing to do with choosing the name, and the young girl didn't either, I'm pretty damn sure. Reference please?

As to the storm itself, this is what she says,

"No squall could frighten Dany, though. Daenerys Stormborn, she was called, for she had come howling into the world on distant Dragonstone as the greatest storm in the memory of Westeros howled outside, a storm so fierce that it ripped gargoyles from the castle walls and smashed her father's fleet to kindling." (ASoS 86 US Hardback Edition)

That there was a storm that destroyed the Royal fleet anchored at Dragonstone is a simple verifiable fact. Stannis built a rebel fleet to take Dragonstone because of the Royal fleet's existence. It makes no sense for Stannis to spend all the time he does in building rebel ships if there is no royal ships to stop the rebels from taking the island. The destruction of the fleet and Daenerys's birth upon Dragonstone on the night the fleet was destroyed, is an easily verifiable fact for Stannis to determine. Yet Stannis does not deny any of the facts of Daenerys's story. In fact he accepts them as true, and repeats them as facts himself. The storm itself is real history, as is the destruction of the fleet. Dany's birth on that night would have been witnessed by others as would the newborn during her stay on the island from the night of her birth until the night of her escape from Dragonstone with Ser Willem and Viserys.

So on the one hand we have easily verifiable facts with witnesses backing the story we have from Daenerys, and on the other we have complete conjecture based on what? Rhaella wearing robes when she left King's Landing and Daenerys's memory of a lemon tree? Wolfmaid, there is this huge gaping credibility gap in your story that you can't let yourself see. Wake up.