What was Rhaegar Targaryen thinking?

[King Viserys Targaryen IV]

10 minutes ago, purple-eyes said:

Because loyal kg will not abandon their order? you know, Robb's will would still work after his death.

His WILL, as KING.

Rhaegar was not a King and this is not a document enforcing his passage of rights, lands and money.

I am sure that Rhaegar did tell them to stay there and protect Lyanna and her child. But when does that order end? Will they guard her for ever? Till they die, till she dies?

They are not robots that follow an order till they are given a new order. They know what is happening in the world and what they must do.

At least one of them MUST go to their King if there are no King's Guard protecting the King. It is as simple as that. Otherwise they are Oathbreakers. Yet Ned finds them a shining example and they claim their Oath as why they are at the Tower. So they are not Oathbreakers...

So what does that leave? Only one thing. That they think the King is in that Tower.

Whether you want to argue that they are overlooking the fact that Jon is a bastard and are following him regardless or that Jon is Trueborn.

Either way, Those three King's Guard are saying that their King is in the Tower.

[UnmaskedLurker]

5 minutes ago, King Viserys Targaryen IV said:

His WILL, as KING.

Rhaegar was not a King and this is not a document enforcing his passage of rights, lands and money.

I am sure that Rhaegar did tell them to stay there and protect Lyanna and her child. But when does that order end? Will they guard her for ever? Till they die, till she dies?

They are not robots that follow an order till they are given a new order. They know what is happening in the world and what they must do.

At least one of them MUST go to their King if there are no King's Guard protecting the King. It is as simple as that. Otherwise they are Oathbreakers. Yet Ned finds them a shining example and they claim their Oath as why they are at the Tower. So they are not Oathbreakers...

So what does that leave? Only one thing. That they think the King is in that Tower.

Whether you want to argue that they are overlooking the fact that Jon is a bastard and are following him regardless or that Jon is Trueborn.

Either way, Those three King's Guard are saying that their King is in the Tower.

Once again, I agree with you -- but once again, I want to emphasize the issue of conflicting Oaths.

The KG take an Oath to protect the King and royal family, obey the King and protect his secrets. Assume for the moment that obeying Rhaegar is following an Oath -- while I believe actually that point is unclear -- for purposes here, I will assume it is following part of their Oath.

Prior to the deaths of Aerys and Aegon, the KG could follow all aspects of their Oath and stay at ToJ. Aerys has KG protection in the form of Jaime. Rhaegar told them to stay at ToJ -- which they are doing -- all parts of the Oath are being obeyed and followed. 

But once Aerys and Aegon are dead -- and Viserys is on DS without KG protection -- how are the KG fulfilling all of their Oath? The King does not have KG protection. But the KG tell Ned they are at ToJ due to their Oath. How can that make sense if the part of their Oath regarding protecting the King is not being followed? 

At a minimum -- there would be conflicting Oath obligations. How can they pound their chests about how they are following their Oath, when the first part of their Oath -- the part for which they are named (King Guard -- guard the king) -- is not being fulfilled? It just seems completely incoherent. Only if every part of their Oath is being followed (or at least no part is not being followed) can the statement make any sense. And every part of their Oath is being followed ONLY If the KG believe Jon to be King. And the KG will believe Jon to be King only if they believe Rhaegar and Lyanna were married (and likely only if they don't know about the naming of V as heir).

[purple-eyes]

25 minutes ago, King Viserys Targaryen IV said:

His WILL, as KING.

Rhaegar was not a King and this is not a document enforcing his passage of rights, lands and money.

I am sure that Rhaegar did tell them to stay there and protect Lyanna and her child. But when does that order end? Will they guard her for ever? Till they die, till she dies?

They are not robots that follow an order till they are given a new order. They know what is happening in the world and what they must do.

At least one of them MUST go to their King if there are no King's Guard protecting the King. It is as simple as that. Otherwise they are Oathbreakers. Yet Ned finds them a shining example and they claim their Oath as why they are at the Tower. So they are not Oathbreakers...

So what does that leave? Only one thing. That they think the King is in that Tower.

Whether you want to argue that they are overlooking the fact that Jon is a bastard and are following him regardless or that Jon is Trueborn.

Either way, Those three King's Guard are saying that their King is in the Tower.

 

If I were KG, I will of course choose to wait for lyanna die and then take jon to join rhaella and viserys, then work with William Darry to protect them on exile. So that I kept my duty towards crown prince as well as new heir viserys. 

And I think this is their plan. 

[redtree]

10 hours ago, King Viserys Targaryen IV said:

1: Yes, it was huge that he broke tradition, but how would have the King's Guard learned of this? This would not be something that they could send directly, as there is not a rookery at the Tower. And would this be something they would send to other Dorne Lords... that they basically just jumped the relation to the Dornes from being King?

And, fight it all you want, all three of the King's Guard being there is HUGE.

Even if they heard about Viserys, then that says something as well, it says they did not recognize Viserys as their King.

Either way, all three of the King Guard being at the Tower is MAJOR evidence of something. Either they knew Viserys was Aerys' heir and did not recognize it and think that bastard Jon was King OR Jon was Trueborn and they thought he was King.

2: The Oath was not limited to that.. but it is the PRIMARY part of the Oath. How can they possibly think to themselves, it is no big deal that Viserys is unguarded and that there are three of them protecting a bastard and a mistress instead?

Huge, but not huge enough to assume that there's a king in TOJ
Should they heard about Viserys, it came back to the order again. Gerold was ordered by Aerys to find Rhaegar yet he didn't come back to KL after he found him. Why ? Why would he stayed at TOJ unless Lyanna was a prisoner ? It was either Aerys's order or Rhaegar's. Still a big part missing
 

10 hours ago, King Viserys Targaryen IV said:

3: Yeah I am giving up on this one, no idea what you are talking about

Check last page and you find that you said that Rhaegar didn't tell Aerys where he was and i said that it's ridiculous. And then you posed these questions :
 

Quote

"Rhaegar didn't tell Aerys where he was, if he did why didn't Aerys command his men to bring Lyanna to the Capitol during the early part of the war? Seems like she would be a good piece to use against Ned and Robert?"

Do you know the answer to your own questions that you posed as an argument ? Guessing doesn't count
 

10 hours ago, King Viserys Targaryen IV said:

4: Were the Tyrells the only ones there? Were the Tyrells the only ones that Ned encountered since leaving King's Landing?

This is the instance again where you posed a question as a counter argument though i'm guessing you don't know the answer either because GRRM has never told about this pro_targaryen forces you mentioned who knew about Lyanna's whereabout but didn't tell Aerys or you're making up the answer. 
So, do you know the answer to these questions ? Quote it from the book please
 

10 hours ago, King Viserys Targaryen IV said:

5: I am not arguing about the validity of the marriage. Maybe it would have stood up, maybe not. I dont know. They only thing I am saying is that at some point Rhaegar and Lyanna had a ceremonyand married each other. That is it.Whether people recognize it or not we will see. But it looks like the the Three King's Guard recognized it.

Perhaps, still hasn't been revealed yet. If they did recognize the marriage it still wouldn't matter much to public, KG doesn't legalize bastard.
 

10 hours ago, King Viserys Targaryen IV said:

6: Again, obeying is like the fine print of the Oath. Really? They can ignore the primary part of the Oath as long as they are following a minor part in the time of a war when the King is unguarded?

Yet only 1 KG guarding Aerys, Jaime. Their duty is not only to protect the king but also to obey, they don't have to stick to their king at all time

[Jon's Queen Consort]

On 3/2/2016 at 9:53 PM, NervousFiend said:

Rhaegar Targaryen was a pretty smart man,

Obviously he wasn't.

On 3/2/2016 at 9:53 PM, NervousFiend said:

He read alot 

That doesn't make someone smart. 

 

Methinks that what Rhaegar did was his own example of the infamous Targ madness. He didn't thought that anyone would had an objection to his actions because he was entitled to everything he wanted to do.

[Jaime4Brienne]

He was thinking with his littlest head. (apologies if anyone else has said that...the thread is 14 pages long!)

[King Viserys Targaryen IV]

On 2/13/2016 at 8:29 PM, redtree said:

Yet only 1 KG guarding Aerys, Jaime. Their duty is not only to protect the king but also to obey, they don't have to stick to their king at all time

That was when there was 7 King's Guard.

Now there are only 3 and all 3 of them are at the Tower and 0 of them are with Viserys

[redtree]

2 minutes ago, King Viserys Targaryen IV said:

That was when there was 7 King's Guard.

Now there are only 3 and all 3 of them are at the Tower and 0 of them are with Viserys

Is this supposed to be a counter argument ?
Because my post is pretty clear, KGs doesn't have to stick with their king

[King Viserys Targaryen IV]

Just now, redtree said:

Is this supposed to be a counter argument ?
Because my post is pretty clear, KGs doesn't have to stick with their king

One of them has to be with their King, unless their King has told them something else.

If Viserys is their King, and they have not received an order from him....

[redtree]

6 minutes ago, King Viserys Targaryen IV said:

One of them has to be with their King, unless their King has told them something else.

If Viserys is their King, and they have not received an order from him....

Back to why the white bull didn't come back from Dorne, someone must ordered him to stick around either Aerys or Rhaegar. I thought i explain my argument pretty clear, 

[King Viserys Targaryen IV]

1 minute ago, redtree said:

Back to why the white bull didn't come back from Dorne, someone must ordered him to stick around either Aerys or Rhaegar. I thought i explain my argument pretty clear, 

That was BEFORE Rhaegar, Aerys and Aegon died. So Rhaegar told him to stay... that does not excuse them from their Oath which says to protect the King.

They can follow that order when there are 7 King's Guard and at least one of them is with the King, but not when there are now only 3 and NONE of them are with the new King.

I thought my argument was pretty clear.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

Quote

 

“Ser Willem Darry is fled to Dragonstone, with your queen and Prince Viserys. I thought you might have sailed with him.”

“Ser Willem is a good man and true,” said Ser Oswell.

“But not of the Kingsguard,” Ser Gerold pointed out. “The Kingsguard does not flee.”

“Then or now,” said Ser Arthur. He donned his helm.

“We swore a vow,” explained old Ser Gerold.

 

Seriously what more do we need to see that Viserys wasn't the King at this point?

[redtree]

23 minutes ago, King Viserys Targaryen IV said:

That was BEFORE Rhaegar, Aerys and Aegon died. So Rhaegar told him to stay... that does not excuse them from their Oath which says to protect the King.

They can follow that order when there are 7 King's Guard and at least one of them is with the King, but not when there are now only 3 and NONE of them are with the new King.

I thought my argument was pretty clear.

This is like beating a dead horse, i also said multiple times that to protect the king is not their only duty. 

The order of the events is Trident > Sack of KL > TOJ

They stayed after the Trident and they also stayed after Sack of KL. By your word, their primary duty is to protect the king yet they stayed at TOJ even when Aerys and the others were still alive. Now, i assume that they were smart enough to realize that after the Trident that the Targaryen were really close to being done and the Royals were in great danger but they didn't come back to KL to protect Aerys and Elia+her children did they ? Nope they stayed. Or did they just give up on protecting the reigning king Aerys and baby Aegon and thought "oh they're so screwed, let's stay here in the middle of nowhere and protect the new king", yeah i don't think so. It's more likely because they were ordered to stay

And at least one of them with the KG is also pretty assumptive, Jaime wanted to go but Rhaegar told him no because he wanted Jaime around as Aerys's "crutch" not because Jaime had to be there because the rules state as you said that "one of them had to be with the king". 
 

[King Viserys Targaryen IV]

29 minutes ago, redtree said:

This is like beating a dead horse, i also said multiple times that to protect the king is not their only duty. 

The order of the events is Trident > Sack of KL > TOJ

They stayed after the Trident and they also stayed after Sack of KL. By your word, their primary duty is to protect the king yet they stayed at TOJ even when Aerys and the others were still alive. Now, i assume that they were smart enough to realize that after the Trident that the Targaryen were really close to being done and the Royals were in great danger but they didn't come back to KL to protect Aerys and Elia+her children did they ? Nope they stayed. Or did they just give up on protecting the reigning king Aerys and baby Aegon and thought "oh they're so screwed, let's stay here in the middle of nowhere and protect the new king", yeah i don't think so. It's more likely because they were ordered to stay

And at least one of them with the KG is also pretty assumptive, Jaime wanted to go but Rhaegar told him no because he wanted Jaime around as Aerys's "crutch" not because Jaime had to be there because the rules state as you said that "one of them had to be with the king".

After the Trident, Aerys was still protected by a King's Guard and the rest of the Targaryen army and the cities Gold Cloaks.

These 3 could not foresee the treachery of Tywin that would lead to the fall of King's Landing.

The King was safe as far as they knew, and their presence would not have changed that.

And yes, Rhaegar wanted Jaime with Aerys, most likley he was worried about Tywin staying loyal as was Aerys.

 

If their job is not to be with the King, why are they called King's Guards? Technically every person in the land has sworn to obey their King, there 3 are no different, EXCEPT they swore an OATH to protect the King as well.

If one of them is not going to Viserys side, then that can only mean Viserys was not their King.

They knew where Viserys was, they knew who he was with (even pointing out that he was not a KING'S GUARD.

 

I dont know what else I can say. Nothing you say makes any sense if you cant even understand that the job of the King's Guard's job it to guard the King.

[redtree]

18 minutes ago, King Viserys Targaryen IV said:

After the Trident, Aerys was still protected by a King's Guard and the rest of the Targaryen army and the cities Gold Cloaks.

These 3 could not foresee the treachery of Tywin that would lead to the fall of King's Landing.

The King was safe as far as they knew, and their presence would not have changed that.

Safe ? Even Ned knew that after Rhaegar was declared death the victory was nothing but a sure thing. I don't think they were that stupid to assume that Aerys would be just OK after that. He roasted the enemy's father in a false trial and execute his brother in a cruel fashion, and called for their heads fgs. Hell even crazy Aerys knew after Rhaegar's death that the Targaryen was done. People with sense would've known that Aerys and the entire royals were in a grave danger.

18 minutes ago, King Viserys Targaryen IV said:

And yes, Rhaegar wanted Jaime with Aerys, most likley he was worried about Tywin staying loyal as was Aerys.

So, nothing about one of them had to be with the king then ?
 

18 minutes ago, King Viserys Targaryen IV said:

If their job is not to be with the King, why are they called King's Guards? Technically every person in the land has sworn to obey their King, there 3 are no different, EXCEPT they swore an OATH to protect the King as well.

Back to my previous post about Aerys and baby Aegon, too lazy to retype
 

18 minutes ago, King Viserys Targaryen IV said:

If one of them is not going to Viserys side, then that can only mean Viserys was not their King.

They knew where Viserys was, they knew who he was with (even pointing out that he was not a KING'S GUARD.

They didn't go to Aerys and Aegon's side too when they were in danger, so does that mean Aerys wasn't king ? They knew where he was and where baby Aegon was
 

18 minutes ago, King Viserys Targaryen IV said:

I dont know what else I can say. Nothing you say makes any sense if you cant even understand that the job of the King's Guard's job it to guard the King.

Ugh, read my previous post.

Disagreeing is one thing but not getting other people's argument and calling me not understanding while i've countered pretty much every point of your argument is quite another thing

[UnmaskedLurker]

53 minutes ago, redtree said:

Safe ? Even Ned knew that after Rhaegar was declared death the victory was nothing but a sure thing. I don't think they were that stupid to assume that Aerys would be just OK after that. He roasted the enemy's father in a false trial and execute his brother in a cruel fashion, and called for their heads fgs. Hell even crazy Aerys knew after Rhaegar's death that the Targaryen was done. People with sense would've known that Aerys and the entire royals were in a grave danger.

So, nothing about one of them had to be with the king then ?
 

Back to my previous post about Aerys and baby Aegon, too lazy to retype
 

They didn't go to Aerys and Aegon's side too when they were in danger, so does that mean Aerys wasn't king ? They knew where he was and where baby Aegon was
 

Ugh, read my previous post.

Disagreeing is one thing but not getting other people's argument and calling me not understanding while i've countered pretty much every point of your argument is quite another thing

The readers don't know when the KG found out the relevant information. For example, maybe they KG at ToJ only found out about the death of Rhaegar at the same time as the deaths of Aegon and Aerys. So that might be one explanation for why they did not return to KL after the death of Rhaegar. But even if they knew of Rhaegar's defeat earlier, Aerys had Jaime and was as safe as he could be in KL. The KG did not have a clear duty to return to KL because Aerys had these protections.

The conversation between Jaime and Rhaegar make is 100% clear that both Jaime and Rhaegar believed that at least one KG needed to stay behind. Here is the complete quote, in context:

 

Quote

 

The day had been windy when he said farewell to Rhaegar, in the yard of the Red Keep. The prince had donned his night-black armor, with the three-headed dragon picked out in rubies on his breastplate. "Your Grace," Jaime had pleaded, "let Darry stay to guard the king this once, or Ser Barristan. Their cloaks are as white as mine."

Prince Rhaegar shook his head. "My royal sire fears your father more than he does our cousin Robert. He wants you close, so Lord Tywin cannot harm him. I dare not take that crutch away from him at such an hour."

 

 

Note that Jaime never suggests that Aerys can be left without KG protection. Rather Jaime wants someone else -- Darry or Barristan -- to be the KG to stay behind. But clearly the rule that -- at least 1 KG must guard the King -- is understood by both Jaime and Rhaegar as the applicable rule. Jaime even says straight up "Their cloaks are as white as mine." So the need for at least 1 KG to stay behind to guard Aerys is a rule -- a clear and understood rule. Rhaegar's rationale is about why that KG who stays is going to be Jaime and not another KG -- no one is suggesting that all the KG can leave -- not Jaime and not Rhaegar. The context is what matters -- and here the context is explaining why Jaime is the KG being chosen to stay, but both understand at least one KG must stay behind.

As to your Aerys/Aegon discussion, I already addressed that point in this post above. Jaime was guarding Aerys -- he was in the RK at KL -- so he was about as safe as he could be. And more to the point -- their VOW was being maintained BECAUSE Jaime was still there. So maybe they did not hear about Rhaegar till the same time as Aerys and Aegon -- or maybe they simply were not violating their Vow by staying at ToJ. But that fact pattern is completely different than when they know that V is on DS without any KG protection -- but still indicate they cannot go to V due to a VOW. How does that work if V is king? How does a VOW prevent them from ensuring that the King has at least one KG protecting him -- which also is their VOW? And of course they considered Aerys to be King -- but he was under KG protection through Jaime and thus they had no obligation to leave ToJ to go to him. Your suggestion that the duty to guard the King is not a duty to ensure that at least one KG is protecting the King, whenever possible, simply does not hold up to the information provided in the series. And if that is not what that part of the vow means -- then what does it mean? How can they protect him with their lives if none of them is with him?

As to not getting the other's points -- or not addressing them -- I believe you are the one who has not really addressed the main point being made by KVT IV and by me. Essentially, the KG point out that V is on DS without KG protection -- and that they are at ToJ due to a VOW. How can the vow to obey the King supersede the vow to protect the King? We have shown how that obligation was being met for Aerys -- through Jaime. What do you think the vow to protect the King with the KGs' lives means if it does not mean that one of them, at least, must go to the new King to ensure he has protection. That vow is independent and also needs to be kept. So how can the KG say they cannot leave to go to DS to be with V -- which clearly would be in fulfillment of their vow if V is king -- due to a Vow which keeps them at ToJ. 

The other point I raised that you never addressed is even if the vow to obey the King is paramount in some way -- why don't the KG have an obligation to find out if the new King has new orders? The Brienne analogy is completely inapt. When Brienne is fulfilling her vow to Cat, there is no other person to whom Brienne's loyalties would transfer to consult for new orders after Cat's death. But on the death of Aerys, finding out what the new King wanted them to do would seem to be of crucial importance if they have a vow to obey the King.

 

[BRANDON GREYSTARK]

On Invalid Date at 0:16 PM, King Viserys Targaryen IV said:

How can you think Rhaegar raped Lyanna?

Why would Ned not be furious with him? Why would he not be furious with the King's Guard that kept Lyanna prisoner while she died after giving birth to Rhaegar's baby by rape?

Why would Ned return Dawn if Arthur was just a henchmen for the rapist Rhaegar?

Why would Lyanna ask Ned to protect her child if he was the result of Rhaegar brutally raping her and hold her prisoner? Why would Ned keep that promise instead of turning over the Dragon seed to Robert?

 

None of what happened AFTER the Tower of Joy makes sense of Rhaegar raped Lyanna and held her prisoner.

Even though most of Ned's thoughts are guarded , he seems never to waste time on the dead he never thinks of his mother and father nor of Lyanna or Brandon or the companions he lost during the war nor does he think about Aerys , and the only time he thinks about Rhaegar , is would Rhaegar would frequent brothels then decided that he wouldn't . He saves his anger for the living like those he do not like , like the Lannisters and Varys or those he doesn't trust like Petyr Baelish .

[BRANDON GREYSTARK]

On Invalid Date at 1:28 PM, Knight Of Winter said:

Irrelevant to most of the discussion above, but Rhaegar reminds me of a permanently stoned guy. He's utterly detached from the outer reality, lives inside his own world and and cool with everything.

• Rhaegar, everyone will be pissed of if you crown Lyanna as QOAB
• Nah, it's cool, bro.

 

• Rhaegar, dissapering with Lyanna will cause huge political crisis
• Don't worry, I've got in under control, bro

 

• Rhaegar, what happened to your plans to depose Aerys?
• Oh, that. Well, three headed dragon is more important

 

• Hey, here I am. What happened in the new months I was away?
• Civil war has happened.
• Oh, okay. So I'm gonna fight Robert and than I'll make some changes and than everything will be okay. Relax, bro

HA, HA, HA  , I love it !

[Graydon Hicks]

you  know, after going over this whole discussion thread, i just felt i had to bring up a few point that i feel most of the contributers are ignoring. my first opinion concerns what rheagar did at harrenhal, and what was going through his head. now, i agree with most folks on here that what rhaegar did was monumentally stupid. but not as stupid at the time as it became in hindsight later.

we can easily draw the conclusion from the textual sources, including the WoIaF, that rhaegar organized the tourney as a cover to bring together the nobility of westeros for a secret great council. now, we can look at the roster of attendants, we can notice a pattern: with the obvious exception of Jon arryn, most of the present nobles were the heirs and children of the greater houses of the realm, mace and robert were both young men then, recently raised to head their houses, and most of the others seem to be along the lines of brandon and ned stark, young heirs and second sons, just coming into their power and authority, just like rhaegar himself. most of their fathers could not attend, occupied as they were with their duties back at their house seats. and likely rhaegar wouldnt have really wanted them there, because even if they didnt agree with aerys's mad policies, they were likely too conditioned to habitually obey their king. but their children had yet to fall into those habits. rhaegar was likely hoping to build his coalition out of the younger men who would soon be in a place to make and follow through with the plans of Rheagar. aeyrs was not supposed to be present, infact thats why rheagar organised the tourney as a cover at all to have the council. aeyrs was so paranoid that he hadnt left the red keep in years. the cover was only so that nobility would have a legitimate public reason to be gathered, should any news of the gathering get back to aeyrs. but varys found out the plan and informed the king, who made the completely unanticipated move of leaving the security of the red keep to come to harrenhal. that caused rheagar to throw the plan out the window, and probably try and come up with a different means to try and gather support.

then we have lyanna. i seriously doubt that rhaegar had planned to give lyanna the crown. in all likelyhood, there is a fair chance that he had never even have met lyanna until that tourney. rheagar likely had known brandon and robert, maybe even have met eddard on occasion, but considering the general absence of the North from the main political field of southern westeros, his interaction with the northern families would have been far more infrequent compared the interaction with the families of westerlands, reach, or stormlands, so there would have been no real reason for him to have known lyanna pre-harrenhal. now, from multiple individuals in the books, we hear lyanna described as incredibly beautiful, several times from people who have used the same description for cersie. of course, memories tend to blur with time and bias, but with info we have, i would feel safe enought to say the lyanna could have been counted amoungst the top 10-20 beauties of the realm, up there with cersie. she seems to have shown that undeniable streak of Northern integrity so rare amongst the nobility south of the neck. we are reasonably certain that she was the knight of the laughing tree. i would guess that rheagar found out about the frey men bullying Howland Reed, maybe saw it happening or heard about it from others. from what descriptions we have a rhaegar, and considering who we know he considered his friends to be, i would guess that rheagar was on the chivalrous side, a true knight in most aspects. heh, think a beautiful, male brienne of tarth. he would have likely found to frey's actions to be dishonorable, worthy of admonishment, but he himself would not have felt the need to administer chastisement himself, likely due class perceptions: reed was a lesser house from the distant north, being bullied by an equally lesser house from the similarly distant northern riverlands, and it was not his place to interfere. then lyanna puts on the armor and proceeds to kick frey ass up and down the lists, which he would have approved of. he finds out the identity of the knight as lyanna, and is very impressed. now, most of yall seem to be in a heated debate about how can someone reputed to be so intelligent can do something so stupid as he did with crowning lyanna queen of love and beauty. that being book learned is not the same as intelligent. i do think that he was intelligent, but he was also a young man. and you forget that he was also described as melancholy, prone to go off on his own and "sulk", for lack of a better term. to me, all these descriptions, melancholy, musical, chivalrous, handsome, intelligent, young, scream ROMANTIC to me. this seems the kind of guy, smart and perceptive as he is, who has a tendency to act on his heart rather than head. he honors lyanna out of romanticism, not necessarily romantic interests, there is a difference. now, there would have been undoubtedly some romantic attraction, which would been natural, both them were youthful adults, still under certain chemical and biological impulses, and both were supposed to be very attractive. when he crowned her, he likely did so because he felt she deserved it out of her actions and beauty, not necessarily because he wanted to bone her at that moment.

now, i have to agree with several of you that import of the crowning did not reach its famous infamy until after the "abduction". the crowning, by itself, was scandalous, offensive, would have been the gossip of the realm for the next ten years, it was only with the hindsight of the abduction that folks would look back at the crowning and start thinking "HMMMM, maybe there was something more to rhaegar crowning that northern girl than we thought." the crowning was not an earthshattering event, just the impulsive action of a romantically inclined young man who could be an idiot at times, like all other young men. rheagar likely planned on having time, after the tourney, to appease those nobles that he offended, cause i seriously doubt that was his intention. like i said, he seems to have been a slight idiot at times, acting on his romanticist impulses sometimes without thinking first. we dont know enough about him pre-tourney to say whether this was a pattern of behavior common to him or not, im just basing this on what information we have so far from textual and thematic sources and drawing on real world analogues.

as for how offensive it was to the martells, i think that we can say that only reason it was offensive to them was because he was married to elia. to the dornish in general, rheagar honoring lyanna, and eventually whisking her away, even while still married, would have been fine. its just that he was married to elia in particular. to doran, and oberyn, elia was their sister first, mother of aegon and rhaenys second, and wife to rhaegar third. if it hadn't been their sister, in all likelihood, they might have even applauded his actions. the dornish have a very different view of relationships than the rest of westeros. in think it the rhoynish influences in their culture, but i digress.

another point i want to address was the presence of the kingsguard at the tower of joy. everyone has been going on about their Oaths and the technicalities of it. but i think many of you are forgetting these men, dayne, hightower, whent, werent just kingsguard tasked to protect rhaegar, but were also some of his closest friends, men he trained with, jousted with and against, the men who stood before the whole realm as what a knight should be, alongside barristan. jaime acts the arrogant super knight in front of others, but even he idolized these men as the standard by which a knight must be measureed, and he found himself lacking. dayne and the others werent simply holding to oaths which have been interpreted so many ways in this thread. they were protecting the lover/wife/ whatever of a man they likely loved like a brother.

[Graydon Hicks]

of course this is all subjective. we just have enough honest facts about rhaegar targaryen, even in terms of his appearance. it even leads to my thoughts about how much jon might resemble his father. oh, he's the stark coloring, which has has served to help keep him safe, but does he maybe have some resemblance to his father in smaller ways? like facial structuring? is jon's sullen nature from his father's famous melancholy? body structure: it looks like all the stark men seem to be on the brawny side, but jon seems to be a bit leaner, is that from rhaegar?