Between Sansa and Daenerys, who would make the better ruling Queen?

[Kaibaman]

5 hours ago, Light a wight tonight said:

What she's learned is that there are a bunch of evil people in positions of power who will use and abuse you to further their own agendas. From the purge of the Starks in KL until she was abducted by Littlefinger she'd been an abused captive. She doesn't have a Jorah, Barristan, Strong Belwas, or Illyrio keeping her alive. You might review her actions during Barristan's attack on KL. Cersei wanted to have Ilyn Payne kill her (Cersei) and all her court ladies so that they couldn't be captured, but Sansa defused that situation. That's a form of leadership ability.

You could also say that all Dany has learned is to kill some people, then kill some people, then kill some more people. Fire and blood, and screw good governance.

So you're of the opinion that Dany is unfit to rule because all she is good at is winning battles and conquering cities. Well ok fair enough, as Renly pointed out good soldiers don't always make for good rulers. Then I suppose you are of the opinion that Robb was an even less capable ruler sine on campaign he pissed away most of his army for insanely dumb decisions? You know despite all of Dany's shortcomings at least she was smart enough not to marry whoever she sleeps with and lose the chance to make an alliance though marriage.

As for Sansa we have yet to see her lead men into battle or come up with battle plans and hold her nerve while overseeing a battle.

[Springwatch]

Sansa would be better, in most cases.

The way monarchs rule is crazy in these books - Dany, Robert, Joffrey, all sit on a chair and make snap judgements on any problem brought to them by any person - generals, peasants, whoever.

What's needed is a queen who says, "You know what? I'm not an all-wise, all-knowing demi-goddess. I can't do this on my own. Instead I will have ministers, military councils, expert committees, juries. And I will listen to them, and check up on them."

Second point, it depends on circumstances. If things are going well, if there are good institutions and good governance, you don't want revolutionary change. If there's constant civil war, a fearsome dragon queen might be the best option, but only then.

[khal drogon]

16 minutes ago, Springwatch said:

Sansa would be better, in most cases.

The way monarchs rule is crazy in these books - Dany, Robert, Joffrey, all sit on a chair and make snap judgements on any problem brought to them by any person - generals, peasants, whoever.

What's needed is a queen who says, "You know what? I'm not an all-wise, all-knowing demi-goddess. I can't do this on my own. Instead I will have ministers, military councils, expert committees, juries. And I will listen to them, and check up on them."

Second point, it depends on circumstances. If things are going well, if there are good institutions and good governance, you don't want revolutionary change. If there's constant civil war, a fearsome dragon queen might be the best option, but only then.

And what make you think Sansa will be all good? Only in wishful thinking?

Have you heard of the daying 'Known devil is better than unknown angel'. All I see from people who say Sansa will be better is just "Dany will be bad". Does that mean Sansa could not be worse? True answer we would know only when we see her near any ruling position.

[Britisher]

13 hours ago, Kaibaman said:

So you're of the opinion that Dany is unfit to rule because all she is good at is winning battles and conquering cities. Well ok fair enough, as Renly pointed out good soldiers don't always make for good rulers. Then I suppose you are of the opinion that Robb was an even less capable ruler sine on campaign he pissed away most of his army for insanely dumb decisions? You know despite all of Dany's shortcomings at least she was smart enough not to marry whoever she sleeps with and lose the chance to make an alliance though marriage.

As for Sansa we have yet to see her lead men into battle or come up with battle plans and hold her nerve while overseeing a battle.

I don't want to deviate off-topic too much but Robb was a very short-sighted, inconsiderate ruler with little political insight. He left his nation unprotected; he constantly blundered in all walks of diplomacy and worst of all his actions resulted in the deaths of tens of thousands of men for no reason other than vengeance for his dead father. His blunders are countless: refusing to kneel, marrying Jeyne Westerling, refusing to bargain Jaime (a warrior sworn to celibacy) for his LIVING SISTER and HIS HEIR Sansa (who could have potentially bought him the allegiance of Highgarden, the Eyrie or Sunspear) etc etc. That doesn't mean to say he was a bad person or a bad leader, but he was a bad ruler, which is what this thread is about.

[Springwatch]

9 hours ago, khal drogon said:

And what make you think Sansa will be all good? Only in wishful thinking?

Have you heard of the daying 'Known devil is better than unknown angel'. All I see from people who say Sansa will be better is just "Dany will be bad". Does that mean Sansa could not be worse? True answer we would know only when we see her near any ruling position.

No, that's not what I said.

I'm not saying Sansa has more talent to rule. The good thing about Sansa is that she doesn't have that total self-confidence - we see her doubts often - and so she is more likely to accept that there's limits to what one person can know and do. She will delegate. 

Rulers in the books have absolute power - there is a huge temptation to hubris, to be over confident in your own ability to make decisions. No-one can tell you "no". So King Robert empties the treasury; Joff and Cersei make bad, impulsive decisions, Rob marries Jeyne, Ned executes the watchman without properly questioning him. And so on. And Dany? Dany could be a good ruler. But she's certainly not afraid of making enormous decisions on her own, and ducks responsibility for the consequences, saying "If I look back I am lost". (!)

[WolfOfWinter]

Likely the one who can recognize more than one Westerosi sigil.

[khal drogon]

14 hours ago, Springwatch said:

No, that's not what I said.

I'm not saying Sansa has more talent to rule. The good thing about Sansa is that she doesn't have that total self-confidence - we see her doubts often - and so she is more likely to accept that there's limits to what one person can know and do. She will delegate. 

Rulers in the books have absolute power - there is a huge temptation to hubris, to be over confident in your own ability to make decisions. No-one can tell you "no". So King Robert empties the treasury; Joff and Cersei make bad, impulsive decisions, Rob marries Jeyne, Ned executes the watchman without properly questioning him. And so on. And Dany? Dany could be a good ruler. But she's certainly not afraid of making enormous decisions on her own, and ducks responsibility for the consequences, saying "If I look back I am lost". (!)

So Sansa seems to be a self doubting person. Is that quality enough to make Sansa a good ruler?All I see is stating "Dany is bad at X" and contrasting it with Sansa is better in X than Dany. Nothing about the qualities that was absolutely necessary. What about leadership skills, charisma, understanding military strategy, decision making, grasp of economics? What are Sansa's score in all these? Danaerys has experience in all these even if she don't excel. Sansa has none.

If Sansa could have advisors for everything of that then she would make a good puppet not a good ruler. 

And FYI, Daenerys self doubts much more often. An example is refusing to use dragons in Slaver's Bay on a fear of what it would do. If she was a person who don't fear about consequences she would have burnt Slavers bay and left for Westeros in the third book.

11 hours ago, WolfOfWinter said:

Likely the one who can recognize more than one Westerosi sigil.

Yeah that's the qualification of a good ruler?

[ShadowCat Rivers]

56 minutes ago, khal drogon said:

So Sansa seems to be a self doubting person. Is that quality enough to make Sansa a good ruler?All I see is stating "Dany is bad at X" and contrasting it with Sansa is better in X than Dany. Nothing about the qualities that was absolutely necessary. What about leadership skills, charisma, understanding military strategy, decision making, grasp of economics? What are Sansa's score in all these? Danaerys has experience in all these even if she don't excel. Sansa has none.

[...]

You seem to suggest that Sansa not ever having had a chance to show what she can do equals she can't do it. I hope you understand how flawed this logic is, especially when you are willing to give Dany a pass for her errors because she's learning.

If Sansa is not to be given a chance because tough shit, I want my ruler to have had an experience already and I don't care how / at what cost they've come to get it, then by the same logic one can as well reject Dany because tough shit, I am not willing to allow her repeat her mistakes and I don't care if mistakes are essential in learning.

Mind you, I am not suggesting that Sansa is being portrayed by the author as ruler/administrator material, but merely because that's not her arc. But I find it problematic to disregard her in such a way, for the same reasons that are used as excuses when the talk is about Dany.

[khal drogon]

On Saturday, September 17, 2016 at 3:48 PM, ShadowCat Rivers said:

You seem to suggest that Sansa not ever having had a chance to show what she can do equals she can't do it. I hope you understand how flawed this logic is, especially when you are willing to give Dany a pass for her errors because she's learning.

If Sansa is not to be given a chance because tough shit, I want my ruler to have had an experience already and I don't care how / at what cost they've come to get it, then by the same logic one can as well reject Dany because tough shit, I am not willing to allow her repeat her mistakes and I don't care if mistakes are essential in learning.

Mind you, I am not suggesting that Sansa is being portrayed by the author as ruler/administrator material, but merely because that's not her arc. But I find it problematic to disregard her in such a way, for the same reasons that are used as excuses when the talk is about Dany.

Don't get angry. Who said she won't become one? As of now she has shown none of those capabilities. All I ask is how could we judge her if she was never close to ruling herself? Because all I am seeing is Daenerys is judged for qualities and Sansa is assumed would be better though we haven't seen her having those qualities.

I know Sansa's arc is not about ruling. But when the question is about comparing her and Dany, what is the logic in assuming things so that she would look better than Dany? 

I give a lot of credit to Dany because she tries to be a better ruler. But it is not fair to diminish her by comparing her with an completely imaginary version of Sansa. All I am seeing her is people showing their hate by doing this. As it happens always with Dany. She is always judged with ridiculously high standards while others get a free pass.

And this comparison is pretty insulting of Dany because Dany is considered a failure even after she has tried to learn ruling and even after showing some necessary qualities is compared to a person who has shown none of the qualities so far. I have yet to see an unbiased comparison based on the qualities they show without any assumptions because that's the point of the thread. 

And if you think I am giving Dany free pass all I am doing is giving her credit for trying to learn and trying to point out that she has 'experience' which gives her an edge especially in this comparison which is overlooked and it all becomes about her failures.

[Springwatch]

@khal drogon Your reading of the books is good, but not your reading of other people's posts. They don't say what you think they do.

Dany has been ruling for just a few years, Sansa is unlikely to rule at all. Both characters have flaws, both are still developing. The thread just helps us discuss all the pluses and minuses, but it's not a zero sum game. Both may end up winners. I hope so.

[ShadowCat Rivers]

1 hour ago, khal drogon said:

Don't get angry. Who said she won't become one? As of now she has shown none of those capabilities. All I ask is how could we judge her if she was never close to ruling herself? Because all I am seeing is Daenerys is judged for qualities and Sansa is assumed would be better though we haven't seen her having those qualities.

I know Sansa's arc is not about ruling. But when the question is about comparing her and Dany, what is the logic in assuming things so that she would look better than Dany? 

I give a lot of credit to Dany because she tries to be a better ruler. But it is not fair to diminish her by comparing her with an completely imaginary version of Sansa. All I am seeing her is people showing their hate by doing this. As it happens always with Dany. She is always judged with ridiculously high standards while others get a free pass.

And this comparison is pretty insulting of Dany because Dany is considered a failure even after she has tried to learn ruling and even after showing some necessary qualities is compared to a person who has shown none of the qualities so far. I have yet to see an unbiased comparison based on the qualities they show without any assumptions because that's the point of the thread. 

And if you think I am giving Dany free pass all I am doing is giving her credit for trying to learn and trying to point out that she has 'experience' which gives her an edge especially in this comparison which is overlooked and it all becomes about her failures.

1. As I said in my first post in the thread, the OP's dilemma is not applicable, at least not without a deep plonge into assumptions. That's why I am personally not going to answer who would be better. My answer is, we cannot know.

2. You only see the unfairness in regards to Daenerys. The other side of the coin is to compare a character whose arc --so far-- has her deprived of practically any power, to a character whose arc's basic premise is being biven to handle an unmatched amount of power - and then, hold against the former that she has done nothing. How is that fair?

3. I am not into discussing which character is diminished/insulted more or more often by the fandom and how fairly or undeserved it is done. I'm just saying, it's not nice to defend your preference by belittling others'.

 

ETA - there's another version of 'imaginary Sansa' that's present in the thread; the assumption that Sansa would never become any good and therefore (good/bad/mediocre/whathaveyou ruler) Dany would be better because Sansa would be worse than her by default. So fair...

[Winter's Cold]

10 minutes ago, ShadowCat Rivers said:

2. You only see the unfairness in regards to Daenerys. The other side of the coin is to compare a character whose arc --so far-- has her deprived of practically any power, to a character whose arc's basic premise is being biven to handle an unmatched amount of power - and then, hold against the former that she has done nothing. How is that fair?

How can Sansa be more qualified for ruling than Dany when she has no experience actually ruling? It only makes sense to compare people who are rulers. When it comes to who would make the better ruling queen, Sansa's list of leadership decisions is blank while Dany's list has both pros and cons. 

[ShadowCat Rivers]

15 minutes ago, Winter's Cold said:

How can Sansa be more qualified for ruling than Dany when she has no experience actually ruling? It only makes sense to compare people who are rulers. When it comes to who would make the better ruling queen, Sansa's list of leadership decisions is blank while Dany's list has both pros and cons. 

You might want to read the relevant discussion. However, I will repeat my point by an examble: a person is a decent pianist but nothing special; another person has never had a chance to even sit the piano stool. The later might have the talent needed to be a virtuoso (or they might totally suck, or anything in-between, who knows). To answer "who would be the best pianist" (emphasis on the hypothetical) requires an assumption, generally biased, regarding the second person's abilities.

 

ETA, and no, ruling -like music- does not have a linear "learning curve" the same for all people; someone may start later than others and yet surpass them. Crude examble, because the nature of ruling and administration is far from objective and absolute, but I hope it gets the point through.

[khal drogon]

1 hour ago, ShadowCat Rivers said:

1. As I said in my first post in the thread, the OP's dilemma is not applicable, at least not without a deep plonge into assumptions. That's why I am personally not going to answer who would be better. My answer is, we cannot know.

2. You only see the unfairness in regards to Daenerys. The other side of the coin is to compare a character whose arc --so far-- has her deprived of practically any power, to a character whose arc's basic premise is being biven to handle an unmatched amount of power - and then, hold against the former that she has done nothing. How is that fair?

3. I am not into discussing which character is diminished/insulted more or more often by the fandom and how fairly or undeserved it is done. I'm just saying, it's not nice to defend your preference by belittling others'.

 

ETA - there's another version of 'imaginary Sansa' that's present in the thread; the assumption that Sansa would never become any good and therefore (good/bad/mediocre/whathaveyou ruler) Dany would be better because Sansa would be worse than her by default. So fair...

1. Glad about it.

2. That's the problem with the OP. It needs assumptions. I am not faulting Sansa for not getting any ruling experience but I am pointing out the fact why the comparison could not be made.

3. Glad you understand it.

4. If you are talking about me I never said it. I was pointing about the possibility of her being a poor ruler because we never know. If someone genuinely believe that she couldn't become one then he is wrong so as people who think the same about Dany. As of now we could only judge someone by what qualities they have shown.

[khal drogon]

1 hour ago, Springwatch said:

@khal drogon Your reading of the books is good, but not your reading of other people's posts. They don't say what you think they do.

Dany has been ruling for just a few years, Sansa is unlikely to rule at all. Both characters have flaws, both are still developing. The thread just helps us discuss all the pluses and minuses, but it's not a zero sum game. Both may end up winners. I hope so.

Even this post of yours is of the type like I said.

On Friday, September 16, 2016 at 1:53 PM, Springwatch said:

Sansa would be better, in most cases.

The way monarchs rule is crazy in these books - Dany, Robert, Joffrey, all sit on a chair and make snap judgements on any problem brought to them by any person - generals, peasants, whoever.

What's needed is a queen who says, "You know what? I'm not an all-wise, all-knowing demi-goddess. I can't do this on my own. Instead I will have ministers, military councils, expert committees, juries. And I will listen to them, and check up on them."

Second point, it depends on circumstances. If things are going well, if there are good institutions and good governance, you don't want revolutionary change. If there's constant civil war, a fearsome dragon queen might be the best option, but only then.

I see nothing but assumptions in this post about both Sansa and Dany. You even group Robert, Joff and Dany into a category though they are wildly different. I don't know how this post talks about plusses and minuses of characters you are trying to compare. 

[Light a wight tonight]

On 9/15/2016 at 7:11 PM, Kaibaman said:

So you're of the opinion that Dany is unfit to rule because all she is good at is winning battles and conquering cities. Well ok fair enough, as Renly pointed out good soldiers don't always make for good rulers. Then I suppose you are of the opinion that Robb was an even less capable ruler sine on campaign he pissed away most of his army for insanely dumb decisions? You know despite all of Dany's shortcomings at least she was smart enough not to marry whoever she sleeps with and lose the chance to make an alliance though marriage.

As for Sansa we have yet to see her lead men into battle or come up with battle plans and hold her nerve while overseeing a battle.

  Dany can win battles but can't govern, so why bring up Sansa not having been a battle commander? It's a totally irrelevant point.

[Kaibaman]

30 minutes ago, Light a wight tonight said:

  Dany can win battles but can't govern, so why bring up Sansa not having been a battle commander? It's a totally irrelevant point.

Being a good ruler sometimes requires you to be an expert at war as well. Now sure being the commander and chief of the army is not for everyone so Sansa can delegate those duties to someone more capable if ever she has to fight a war. But the point of Dany being a gifted commander helps her a lot because people are more inclined to follow and obey war heroes than they are the odd bureaucrat. Which is why even today all over the world military service is deemed a good place to kickstart one's political career as it helps them earn respect and recognition from their people.

Now for Sansa I don't know what gifts either administrative or military you think she has, but even if she is truly exemplary, people are not really going to follow her out of hand because apart from being a descendant of an ancient and famous house, she really doesn't have anything going for her. Why would anybody be inclined to follow her into battle and help fight to keep her in power?

[ShadowCat Rivers]

On 18/9/2016 at 11:14 PM, khal drogon said:

1. Glad about it.

2. That's the problem with the OP. It needs assumptions. I am not faulting Sansa for not getting any ruling experience but I am pointing out the fact why the comparison could not be made.

3. Glad you understand it.

4. If you are talking about me I never said it. I was pointing about the possibility of her being a poor ruler because we never know. If someone genuinely believe that she couldn't become one then he is wrong so as people who think the same about Dany. As of now we could only judge someone by what qualities they have shown.

Well, it may be the chosen wording, but what I got is that you were saying Dany would be better because reasons - experience mainly. Which, by elimination, implies that Sansa would be less than. Which is unfair.

But, glad to read it's not so.

 

10 hours ago, Kaibaman said:

Being a good ruler sometimes requires you to be an expert at war as well. Now sure being the commander and chief of the army is not for everyone so Sansa can delegate those duties to someone more capable if ever she has to fight a war. But the point of Dany being a gifted commander helps her a lot because people are more inclined to follow and obey war heroes than they are the odd bureaucrat. Which is why even today all over the world military service is deemed a good place to kickstart one's political career as it helps them earn respect and recognition from their people.

Now for Sansa I don't know what gifts either administrative or military you think she has, but even if she is truly exemplary, people are not really going to follow her out of hand because apart from being a descendant of an ancient and famous house, she really doesn't have anything going for her. Why would anybody be inclined to follow her into battle and help fight to keep her in power?

I guess that explains why most rulers, even today, are men.

[khal drogon]

On Tuesday, September 20, 2016 at 3:41 PM, ShadowCat Rivers said:

Well, it may be the chosen wording, but what I got is that you were saying Dany would be better because reasons - experience mainly. Which, by elimination, implies that Sansa would be less than. Which is unfair.

It isn't unfair but a valid point. One having experience will always have a better knowledge about ruling than the one who got zero experience. At this point Dany knows more about ruling than Sansa and that's a fact. I don't understand why that was unfair while you also understand that the comparison could not be made because Sansa never got the chance. This comparison is about how they are shown in the books not how they will be in a hypothetically levelled up field. I fault the comparison nothing more.

[ShadowCat Rivers]

7 hours ago, khal drogon said:

It isn't unfair but a valid point. One having experience will always have a better knowledge about ruling than the one who got zero experience. At this point Dany knows more about ruling than Sansa and that's a fact. I don't understand why that was unfair while you also understand that the comparison could not be made because Sansa never got the chance. This comparison is about how they are shown in the books not how they will be in a hypothetically levelled up field. I fault the comparison nothing more.

Look, you choose to answer an invalid present hypothetical by selecting another imaginary hypothetical where developement is frozen for Sansa so that you can answer it positively for your character. No, the relative advantage of experience is neither a straight deduction nor does it apply in perpetuity.

The only sincere answer if we are to chose one is "my favourite", by the reasoning "because I like her more". That's all.