Dead or Somewhat Dead

[Curled Finger]

On 9/30/2016 at 11:01 AM, sweetsunray said:

I have a youtube account, but no channel. I still have to do the stuff to get it on ITunes (well I can test it, but am figuring out what else to do). But the Persephone podcast can be heard here: https://sweeticeandfiresunray.com/2015/10/07/persephone-of-the-winterfell-crypts/

Thanks so much sweetsunray.   I actually got to listen over the weekend.   Everything about it is entirely listenable.   I don't read much with my eyes anymore so this was quite a treat.   When is the next one due out?   You have a fandom waiting... 

[Sensenmenn]

10 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

I honestly don't think I've ever seen that before and I've been hanging around here for years.   Of course there are millions of posts I haven't read.   I created a topic once about the lack of original thinking about things.   I think this is brilliant.   If I knew how to give you an emogee you would have a page of thumbs up, Man.   Do us all a favor and put the whole idea out there in a topic.   It would be riveting.   

@Yaya--Level 5???

I don't have my books with me but i think the never born are broght up by old nan when she tells bran about the others.

[Curled Finger]

2 minutes ago, Sensenmenn said:

I don't have my books with me but i think the never born are broght up by old nan when she tells bran about the others.

I just searched and the term "neverborn" doesn't come up at all.   I'm not finding never born together either.   I think you have an original here. 

[Sensenmenn]

2 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

I honestly don't think I've ever seen that before and I've been hanging around here for years.   Of course there are millions of posts I haven't read.   I created a topic once about the lack of original thinking about things.   I think this is brilliant.   If I knew how to give you an emogee you would have a page of thumbs up, Man.   Do us all a favor and put the whole idea out there in a topic.   It would be riveting.   

@Yaya--Level 5???

I think level 2 because they don't realy die but are changed kind of like Melisandre.

[Curled Finger]

6 minutes ago, Sensenmenn said:

I think level 2 because they don't realy die but are changed kind of like Melisandre.

To Caster's babies perhaps.  But your neverborn, these things than may not even be the Others, are never truly born,  This is a metamorphosis rather than change of life force.   Still flabbergastered Sensenmenn.  I love this. 

[Marylou]

11 hours ago, Sensenmenn said:

The others don't reproduce from humans, they use human children to make never born which serve the others. The creatures in the GoT prologe are never born(crasters sons) we never see the others.

We agree on that the Others don't have sexy time/reproduce like humans. But IIRR there is no textual evidence for the Craster-babies, even though it is obvious the Others make them their own or create other Others. But there has to be another source, they can't confide themselves on Crasters offspring only  The wildlings never talked directly about baby-stealing. If something like this occured on a regular basis, I'm utterly sure someone would have talked about it. So, were do the Others get their supplies? We know so little about them, damn! 

Only thing I see is, we have to derive from what we know about the other magic stuff to get an idea of the Others reproduction. 

BUT we have some evidence that the Others are not asexual. The night kings bride and a dream Dany dreams. Don't remember if someone quoted it here or somewhere else.

Quote

Beneath her coverlets she tossed and turned, dreaming that Hizdahr was kissing her … but his lips were blue and bruised, and when he thrust himself inside her, his manhood was cold as ice.

Looks like an Other to me. Or Euron *creep*

By  the way, where did you get the term "neverborn"? How do you know these weren't Others, yet something close but not wights? Text evidence, please

 

[Marylou]

On 29.9.2016 at 3:00 PM, sweetsunray said:

You could regard it as such, but the manner in which he has the Stark kids survive and find strength in places like HoBaW, wintry Eyrie, in a cave so far North that one must feed on wights, and actually discover their magical powers in exactly such a setting, just like Ned's damnation in the dungeon of 8 people has already come half true, and Catelyn's new form of LS says there's more to it.

The reason I'm personally less interested in the literal death and resurrection is because George has indicated he's not writing magic in a scientific way. He won't explain how fire magic, or shadow magic of Asshai works. But that does not mean he does not use a certain logic and rules to it. I deeply suspect he uses mythologial logic instead. It gives him a framework, but without needing to go into magic x works y way (such as in the Wheel of Time series).

For example, the way I listed the survivors/resurrected/healed you notice immediately why Drogo would never have worked. Sure, MMD raised shadows dancing around a fire, but Drogo is not on a body of water, and he isn't being treated in some cave or a dungeon, or an area remotely tied to chthonic references. MMD may have used the right shadow-blood magic, but it was applied at the wrong location. Perhaps they should have dug a pit in the earth and have MMD perform it there? Certain magic (especially fire magic) seems necessary, but only in a chthonic location (underground, underworld, sea-river related). The sole person who accomplished a feat in being reborn/survive an otherwise certain death that is unrelated to subaquatic or subterranean locations was Dany in fire. Of course the Christian underworld is a hell of fire and brimstone. 

I don't think we are necessarily meant to "see" this as readers, but it is more what George uses as framework. Your interpretation is one on the story-level. I'm looking at the meta-level. Yours does not negate mine,nor does mine negate yours. 

First, great website, @sweetsunray. A lot of sweat put into this, chapeau.  

I have read a lot of these mythological theories over the years and a lot of this stuff is very compelling. But I see this as an entertaining "side-read", because all these different approaches confuse the shit out of me  

I don't agree that Drogos' resurrection didn't work because of the wrong place, it didn't work because his job was done. Although the thing with the caves is interesting. Even the shadow baby was born in a cave. But this was in the stormlands.  Hmmmm....

Altough I try to stay so close to the book as possible,  I totally consider some of the myth -stuff is mixed together to maintain some kind of framework, as you said.  Another reason why i am hesitant to plunge into  the "all is somehow mythological related" is that it destracts me from the factual stuff in the books. I too like to check out the symbolisms, always a very educational reseach.

 George stated several times that he is a big fan of english history and that he borrowed some ideas from the war of the roses. I have a hard time to believe that even GRRM would be able to handle a mix of real history, a mytholocical mash up of greek, roman, norse and whatever sources are out there, religion in it's many forms, big scale politics, psychology and behaviourism in the long run. He is a man with a vast imagination, so I don't think everything is borrowed. Or maybe this is what take him so long to write

 

There are no gods, no afterlife in Planetos, only magic - this is at least something I am convinced of.

[Marylou]

On 29.9.2016 at 2:55 AM, sweetsunray said:

Euhm, a "monster" has passed the Wall, in Gilly's arms, through the Blac Gate, tended by 2 nurses at CB. He's called "Monster" by Val

Jesus Mofo Christ, this gives me the CREEPS! How can it be that this is not discussed?! Shit, I have so many urgend stuff to do and now all I an think of is the Monster. It irritated me a lot that Val called her nephew 'Monster'. Can't be a coincidence. 

 

@Curled Finger  I have no solid proof that Qyburn is a mage. He probably isn't, but has certain knowledge. 

Marwyn at the Citadel is a mage for sure, and these guys have dealt with each other.

Quote

Ser Jorah Mormont spoke up. "A maester?"

"Marwyn, he named himself," the woman replied in the Common Tongue. "From the sea. Beyond the sea. The Seven Lands, he said. Sunset Lands. Where men are iron and dragons rule. He taught me this speech."

"A maester in Asshai," Ser Jorah mused. "Tell me, Godswife, what did this Marwyn wear about his neck?

Here is Qyburn talking about a special incident:

Quote

"Do you believe in ghosts, Maester?" he (Jaime) asked Qyburn.

The man's face grew strange. "Once, at the Citadel, I came into an empty room and saw an empty chair. Yet I knew a woman had been there, only a moment before. The cushion was dented where she'd sat, the cloth was still warm, and her scent lingered in the air. If we leave our smells behind us when we leave a room, surely something of our souls must remain when we leave this life?" Qyburn spread his hands. "The archmaesters did not like my thinking, though. Well, Marwyn did, but he was the only one."  Jaime VI a storm of swords

Quote

Leo yawned. "The sea is wet, the sun is warm, and the menagerie hates the mastiff."

He has a mocking name for everyone, thought Pate, but he could not deny that Marwyn looked more a mastiff than a maester. As if he wants to bite you. The Mage was not like other maesters. People said that he kept company with whores and hedge wizards, talked with hairy Ibbenese and pitch-black Summer Islanders in their own tongues, and sacrificed to queer gods at the little sailors' temples down by the wharves. Men spoke of seeing him down in the undercity, in rat pits and black brothels, consorting with mummers, singers, sellswords, even beggars. Some even whispered that once he had killed a man with his fists.

"When Marwyn had returned to Oldtown, after spending eight years in the east mapping distant lands, searching for lost books, and studying with warlocks and shadowbinders, Vinegar Vaellyn had dubbed him "Marwyn the Mage." The name was soon all over Oldtown, to Vaellyn's vast annoyance. "Leave spells and prayers to priests and septons and bend your wits to learning truths a man can trust in," Archmaester Ryam had once counseled Pate, but Ryam's ring and rod and mask were yellow gold, and his maester's chain had no link of Valyrian steel." Prologue a dance with dragons

These guys obviously have something in common And I say it is the "witchcraft" or at least the creepy side of alchemy.

 

The fact that MMD learned from Marwyn is another proof that blood magic has nothing to do with R'hllor, gods or being a priest. You "just"  have to know how it works, period.

[sweetsunray]

1 hour ago, Marylou said:

Although the thing with the caves is interesting. Even the shadow baby was born in a cave. But this was in the stormlands.  Hmmmm....

Caves and subterranean locations are an entrance passage into the underworld in the logic of myth (hence mytho-logic), and these entrances can of course be situated in terrestrial realm.

Quote

George stated several times that he is a big fan of english history and that he borrowed some ideas from the war of the roses. I have a hard time to believe that even GRRM would be able to handle a mix of real history, a mytholocical mash up of greek, roman, norse and whatever sources are out there, religion in it's many forms, big scale politics, psychology and behaviourism in the long run. He is a man with a vast imagination, so I don't think everything is borrowed. Or maybe this is what take him so long to write

Here's my own personal writing experience: you do research anyway (especially historical), you also review and rewrite stuff anyway. When I don't put too much symbolism in it, I'll be reviewing the language constantly, trying to make it more 'literary'. If I review 1st draft or 2nd draft to add in layers of allusions to myth, fairytales and symbolism I actually don't waste my time on writing the perfect sentence, and I'm more pleased with the result. And a symbolistic mind is prone to add lots of it in the 1st draft anyhow, especially if you have some ideas already. Let's say I have a garden scene with fruit, chances are it will already be Paradise Lost-esque. On a review, I'll only have to pick up Milton's book, flip through it to the relevant sections,think "Oh, these are nice!" and then find I might only have to tweak one sentence to make it a match. It takes less time to write in allusions to myth, tales and history for me than it does without it. It certainly takes less time to write it, than to analyse it, especially when you already soak up such forms of storytelling. That's my own personal experience. And it cannot be denied that GRRM isn't fond of symbolism. So, I completely disagree that GRRM cannot handle juggling history, myth, literature, etc. To me your argument sounds analogues to the clockwork argumentused against evolution.

Which is why I find it so relevant that in George's opinion one of the best 5 sci-fi-fantasy books written is Zelazny's Lord of Light, which incorporates lots of Hindu mythology in it. It's about human colonizers of another planet who have an incarnation machine, and pretend to be Hindu gods. They aren't gods, but they pretend to be to the colonized beings. Rh'lorr's title "Lord of Light" is a kudoz from George to Zelazny.

Quote

There are no gods, no afterlife in Planetos, only magic - this is at least something I am convinced of.

I never claimed they are "gods" or an actual afterlife in Planetos. These are meta-level logics, a framework. It is more storytelling-logic rather than story-logic, and never should be taken literary.

[Marylou]

22 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

To me your argument sounds analogues to the clockwork argument used against evolution.

*grinnig* No, I just think GRRMs story can't 'only' be seen as a complicated mash up of all the things numerated, altough I agree with 'it makes writing easier when you relate to existing history/myth...'. Sure he is framing his work with myth and history, but I don't believe that's all about  it. I'm cool with the fact that this is something you like to play with, but I have a slightly different approach.

I too see or better, believe to see borrowings and resemblances.  Varys for example, resembles the Hijras in India. Wrote about this before, but alas, nobody shared thoughts on this: Hindi references. Do you have an equivalent for Varys that might enlighten the castration story if we assume it's not the way it happended?

The musings about the "no gods in Planetos" are my own toughts, didn't hint at you with this

[sweetsunray]

2 minutes ago, Marylou said:

*grinnig* No, I just think GRRMs story can't 'only' be seen as a complicated mash up of all the things numerated, altough I agree with 'it makes writing easier when you relate to existing history/myth...'. Sure he is framing his work with myth and history, but I don't believe that's all about  it. I'm cool with the fact that this is something you like to play with, but I have a slightly different approach.

I too see or better, believe to see borrowings and resemblances.  Varys for example, resembles the Hijras in India. Wrote about this before, but alas, nobody shared thoughts on this: Hindi references. Do you have an equivalent for Varys that might enlighten the castration story if we assume it's not the way it happended?

The musings about the "no gods in Planetos" are my own toughts, didn't hint at you with this

If you mean that GRRM is still writing his own story, regardless of the inspiration, fully agreed. You can't predict the final outcome of an aSoIaF's character based on this. One character has links to numerous myths anyway, all with different themes, outcomes, etc. It's not a lay-out map, but framework. What is very useful about mytho-logic is that it gives you some meta-rules. Stories and myth have a meta-logic, a meta-magic of their own. If we read a fairytale where two riders come across a beggar, where one scoffs the beggar and nearly tramples him in a gallop, but the other shares his last food/money with them, then the beggar will not just turn out to be some poor sod, but some disguises benefactor. It's like a trope, but it isn't. It's a motif instead. There's no in-story magic that makes this beggar a benefactor, it's storytelling-magic so to speak. 

Haven't been able to spend much thought on Varys in relation to myth. I'll read your proposal

[Marylou]

@sweetsunray and to be honest: If I spend my time bathing in all the theories and mythology links - and I LOVE it, don't get me wrong  - I would never ever come out of my cave again, and who would resurrect poor Marylou?  It is indeed utterly interesting, I have big volumes of roman, greek, german and norse mythology in my bookshelf. Love the aegyptian stuff, too. Did you ever read "Sinuhe" from Mika Waltari? I love the book.

Totally agree with you now on the "framework thing" Got it slightly wrong at first  

[Yaya]

i've been doing some re-reading and ... does it read true that Bran did "die" ? 
do we ever really get that he was revived? 
am i missing some key page in my book or is my comprehension skill level lacking? 

can someone please confirm for me that Bran really died?

[ravenous reader]

2 hours ago, Yaya said:

i've been doing some re-reading and ... does it read true that Bran did "die" ? 
do we ever really get that he was revived? 
am i missing some key page in my book or is my comprehension skill level lacking? 

can someone please confirm for me that Bran really died?

Please quote passages where you feel it's intimated that Bran died.  I'm not following you.

[Curled Finger]

On 10/11/2016 at 5:27 PM, Yaya said:

i've been doing some re-reading and ... does it read true that Bran did "die" ? 
do we ever really get that he was revived? 
am i missing some key page in my book or is my comprehension skill level lacking? 

can someone please confirm for me that Bran really died?

No Yaya, it's not stated anywhere that Bran died.    There is a lot of he will die and he might die and finally, he's not gonna die, but we are never outright told Bran died.   I base my conclusion that he did die on his gaining consciousness when Lady is killed.   It is death paying for life, our very 1st example.   At the very least Bran regains consciousness from a comatose state.   What brought me to the conclusion was that Gregor is predicted to die many times (I should compare the number of times for both) then seemingly snaps out of his death too.   They were similar circumstances is all I really mean to say.   So Bran wasn't so much revived as his life is bought with the sacrifice of Lady and he suddenly regains consciousness whereas Drogo is more or less catatonic, maybe comatose, who knows--after the horse is killed.   The scenes are flipped on their heads so to speak.   But, we aren't told that Dany or Jon died either, are we? 

[Curled Finger]

On 10/3/2016 at 2:28 AM, Marylou said:

We agree on that the Others don't have sexy time/reproduce like humans. But IIRR there is no textual evidence for the Craster-babies, even though it is obvious the Others make them their own or create other Others. But there has to be another source, they can't confide themselves on Crasters offspring only  The wildlings never talked directly about baby-stealing. If something like this occured on a regular basis, I'm utterly sure someone would have talked about it. So, were do the Others get their supplies? We know so little about them, damn! 

Only thing I see is, we have to derive from what we know about the other magic stuff to get an idea of the Others reproduction. 

BUT we have some evidence that the Others are not asexual. The night kings bride and a dream Dany dreams. Don't remember if someone quoted it here or somewhere else.

Looks like an Other to me. Or Euron *creep*

By  the way, where did you get the term "neverborn"? How do you know these weren't Others, yet something close but not wights? Text evidence, please

 

I think the idea comes from Old Nan's story to Bran about The Long Night.   We know there are unnatural sacrifices when the Nights King rules the Wall and there are all those superstitions about not naming a child while still on the breast.  Jon makes the connection between Craster and the The Others.   And Old Nan tells how mothers smothered their babies during The Long Night.    So no, I don't think there is so much textual evidence as a really really cool extrapolation as to the nature of the sacrifice.  I think that term 'neverborn" sprang right from @Sensenmenn's incredible imagination and vocabulary.   And he's not nearly as excited about it as I am  

So, no Marylou, this is a brand new thing for us.   We will have to take it or leave it on faith alone until we know a whole lot more.  

To the bold, do you think the Others have to wait for Stannis' fires to burn brighter before they can make little Others? 

[Curled Finger]

On 10/11/2016 at 8:26 PM, ravenous reader said:

Please quote passages where you feel it's intimated that Bran died.  I'm not following you.

If you read back a few pages Yaya is keeping a list of categorical deaths for us.   She was only asking for text supporting Bran dying, she has maintained complete non bias in her reporting of our ideas here.   Bran is not stated to have died anywhere.  So you are on the same page as everyone else.   We are only discussing the nature of life after death in the story.  Some of us think there are a few characters who have died symbolically if not literally and return to life or consciousness with greater or new powers.   At the very least I think Bran needed the time and space between life and death for the 3EC to reach him.   

[ravenous reader]

2 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

If you read back a few pages Yaya is keeping a list of categorical deaths for us.   She was only asking for text supporting Bran dying, she has maintained complete non bias in her reporting of our ideas here.   Bran is not stated to have died anywhere.  So you are on the same page as everyone else.   We are only discussing the nature of life after death in the story.  Some of us think there are a few characters who have died symbolically if not literally and return to life or consciousness with greater or new powers.   At the very least I think Bran needed the time and space between life and death for the 3EC to reach him.   

Symbolic death is one of GRRM's HUGE themes.

I've written on it quite extensively myself, particularly in reference to Bran, here.

The trope that is used in reference to a greenseeing awakening is drowning; 'green sea'='green see.'

[Curled Finger]

OK, didn't want you to be mislead here.  Thanks for the tip.

16 minutes ago, ravenous reader said:

Symbolic death is one of GRRM's HUGE themes.

I've written on it quite extensively myself, particularly in reference to Bran, here.

The trope that is used in reference to a greenseeing awakening is drowning; 'green sea'='green see.'