U.S. Politics: 2016 Election Goes To Overtime

[Boris the Blade]

4 minutes ago, Sullen said:

Eh... Not sure I'd agree with that, not sure downplaying the woes of those people through snarky hyperboles, many who didn't vote for Trump, is the best way to win them over, or to motivate them to support the party in the midterms.

So no snark and do not address bigotry in fear of hurting white people's feelings. Maybe white people need to just toughen the fuck up and get out of their little safe space of privilege eh? 

[Sullen]

1 minute ago, Dr. Pepper said:

I'm not sure who you think I am or why you think I'm involved in some effort to 'win' people back to the party.  My response these past few posts have been to those who first complain about the existence of identity politics and claim that this is why the Dems lost and then turn around and say we must focus on the identity politics of poor whites.  I'm merely commenting on that.  It's disturbing.  Does the Dem party need to do better at addressing economic inequality.  Um, YEAH.  Should they do it with such an intense focus on poor whites at the expense of everyone else so as to keep poor whites placated?  Um, NO.  

That's the thing, why the hell do you think that putting a focus on those specific working class whites means it's at the expense of other groups? Or that discussing the reasons why they refused to vote, or even voted for Trump, means endorsing that behaviour?

Again, Americans should stop with the bullshit tribalism. You can talk about the plights of working class Whites AND working class Blacks in the same breath, and addressing the issues of the one doesn't mean dismissing the ones of the other.

Shit, man, get your shit together.

[Dr. Pepper]

2 minutes ago, Sullen said:

That's the thing, why the hell do you think that putting a focus on those specific working class whites means it's at the expense of other groups? Or that discussing the reasons why they refused to vote, or even voted for Trump, means endorsing that behaviour?

Again, Americans should stop with the bullshit tribalism. You can talk about the plights of working class Whites AND working class Blacks in the same breath, and addressing the issues of the one doesn't mean dismissing the ones of the other.

Shit, man, get your shit together.

Um, that's what I'm saying!!  That's what pretty much everyone has been saying pre-election.  It's commentators, op-eds, other posters here post election who are arguing that Dems should no longer do identity politics unless it's just white identity politics.  

[Sullen]

2 minutes ago, Boris the Blade said:

So no snark and do not address bigotry in fear of hurting white people's feelings. Maybe white people need to just toughen the fuck up and get out of their little safe space of privilege eh? 

Yeah, that, exactly.

Treat others as you would be treated, don't punch down, don't be an asshole (especially if you want those people to vote with you).

Considering that I don't doubt that you take offense to the way some of them treat minorities, and that they suffer from economic woes, rampant drug problems, and are not privileged enough to get an advanced education, I'd say you fail the first two criterion, potentially all three.

[Sullen]

3 minutes ago, Dr. Pepper said:

Um, that's what I'm saying!!  That's what pretty much everyone has been saying pre-election.  It's commentators, op-eds, other posters here post election who are arguing that Dems should no longer do identity politics unless it's just white identity politics.  

Not really, that's the thing.

People aren't saying "Stop talking about the Blacks!", they're saying that one should talk about the White working class specifically as well, or abandon identity politics as a whole, because if they keep using identity politic rhetoric but fail to address the fear of the new Rust Belt worker bloc, the Republicans are sure to take advantage of it.

[Altherion]

1 hour ago, Triskan said:

I found this article to be largely convincing about how everyone's overreacting to what this election result means.  There was no white surge and not necessarily any serious rethinking required for the Dems other than just getting a better run DNC and better candidate at the top.  

Are you familiar with the idea of the last 50 Spitfires in the Battle of Britain? The demographics argument is a more long term version of this propaganda. It relies on a wide variety of assumptions. For example, how do you know that all of the minorities will stick with the Democrats? Trump was just about as insulting as possible towards Mexico and possibly other Latin American countries, but nearly a third of latinos still voted for him. There's no reason to believe Republicans cannot improve on that number further.

[Boris the Blade]

Just now, Sullen said:

Yeah, that, exactly.

Treat others as you would be treated, don't punch down, don't be an asshole (especially if you want those people to vote with you).

Considering that I don't doubt that you take offense to the way some of them treat minorities, and that they suffer from economic woes, rampant drug problems, and are not privileged enough to get an advanced education, I'd say you fail the first two criterion, potentially all three.

Yea exactly? Well you are apart of the problem. You would rather sweep their bigotry under the rug and not call them out on it. You rather act like it doesn't exist. That is how the US tries to deal with its deeply rooted racism and misogyny etc, look at how well that works out. 

You ever hear respect is earned not given? That is how I live my life. I'm not into that love my enemy hippy kumbaya bullshit. I have no issue punching down. I have no issue being an asshole to bigoted assholes. I'm not worried about winning them over since we never will. I realize they think certain people shouldn't have the right to live, so I am not going to be nice to them and worry about their feelings.

Progress, especially regarding civil rights, isn't made by appeasing the oppressors / bigots and being nice to them and asking please. It's done by turning shit on it's head and fighting it head on. 



 

[Boris the Blade]

Just now, The Great Unwashed said:

I'm not sure who you're confusing me with, but I'm not making excuses for any bigots. I'm merely saying that there is a group of people who happen to be white, poor, and who hail from rural areas who have real problems that they don't feel are being addressed by Democrats. All I'm saying is that it probably doesn't advance Democratic interests to call all these people bigoted assholes considering that many of them have voted Democratic in the past.

If they are bigots, which I am positive the majority are, they should be called what they are. 

[Sullen]

14 minutes ago, Boris the Blade said:

Yea exactly? Well you are apart of the problem. You would rather sweep their bigotry under the rug and not call them out on it. You rather act like it doesn't exist. That is how the US tries to deal with its deeply rooted racism and misogyny etc, look at how well that works out. 

You ever hear respect is earned not given? That is how I live my life. I'm not into that love my enemy hippy kumbaya bullshit. I have no issue punching down. I have no issue being an asshole to bigoted assholes. I'm not worried about winning them over since we never will. I realize they think certain people shouldn't have the right to live, so I am not going to be nice to them and worry about their feelings.

Progress, especially regarding civil rights, isn't made by appeasing the oppressors / bigots and being nice to them and asking please. It's done by turning shit on it's head and fighting it head on. 

I see, you keep dumping all of the Rust Belt who didn't want to vote for Clinton (or even those who did vote for her) with the racists, that's your choice.

Have fun fucking up your country by depressing the voter base you need to retake power, I'm sure Republicans will leave a nice mess for you to pick up in 8-12 years. I seriously hope your party ignores people like you and your minorities/working class don't have to live through a decade of Republican rule.

And yeah, I've often heard the old saying "Respect is earned, not given", it's on par with "I hate all races equally" as far as bullshit excuses to justify acting like an edgy asshole go.

[Dr. Pepper]

12 minutes ago, Sullen said:

Not really, that's the thing.

People aren't saying "Stop talking about the Blacks!", they're saying that one should talk about the White working class specifically as well, or abandon identity politics as a whole, because if they keep using identity politic rhetoric but fail to address the fear of the new Rust Belt worker bloc, the Republicans are sure to take advantage of it.

Some people have argued that.  I clearly wasn't commenting to them....

There are actually a diverse array of posters here.  There are some neo-nazis, 'gender preservationists', rape apologists, progressives, stupid people who think they are smart, smart people who act like they are stupid, funny people, perhaps a sullen one or two.  Not sure why you think everyone is saying the same thing.

[Sullen]

11 minutes ago, Dr. Pepper said:

Some people have argued that.  I clearly wasn't commenting to them....

There are actually a diverse array of posters here.  There are some neo-nazis, 'gender preservationists', rape apologists, progressives, stupid people who think they are smart, smart people who act like they are stupid, funny people, perhaps a sullen one or two.  Not sure why you think everyone is saying the same thing.

I apologize then.

I haven't seen any neo-nazis advocating for completely ignoring the woes of the Black community (granted, I'm not around too often), and I have no clue as to what a "gender preservationist" is supposed to entail, but if it was addressed to those people, then I suppose I shouldn't have intervened.

[Kalbear]

5 hours ago, Manhole Eunuchsbane said:

 So you're just going to lose to the party that doesn't ignore this demographic? Until it "grows the fuck up"? Or dies? I have to hope we can find some sort of middle ground here.

You're assuming that this is the reason that Clinton lost. That's sort of the faulty presumption. Rural white voters did not change insanely for Trump, nor did they turn out in incredible amounts. It is more accurate to say that Democrats did not vote at the same level. 

It's also really difficult to say that Clinton the candidate didn't have factors here.

Really, the umbrage taken is silly. 

[Castel]

26 minutes ago, Sullen said:

I apologize then.

I haven't seen any neo-nazis advocating for completely ignoring the woes of the Black community (granted, I'm not around too often), and I have no clue as to what a "gender preservationist" is supposed to entail, but if it was addressed to those people, then I suppose I shouldn't have intervened.

Some  don't directly argue it*, but an implicit argument from a lot of these right-wing deplorables is that there's a pie and the minorities are taking all of it, and it's odd to see progressives buying into it when we just saw an election (especially the Democratic primary) where a lot of things that drove it (debates over healthcare, debt-free college,TPP, $15 vs. $12 minimum wage) had little to do with  pandering to minorities. 

 

*You don't have to say "give nothing to the minorities"  if you have the tiny amount of sophistication necessary to consider anything given to them as a major loss in the zero-sum game you can bitch about. This is an old conservative trick. Along with the liberal use of the term "divisive"

[Kalbear]

5 hours ago, The Great Unwashed said:

How exactly are poor, rural whites not marginalized? My belief is that the poor are automatically marginalized simply by the fact of being poor. Stating your wish for poor whites to "die off" plays exactly into the stereotype of liberals that Republicans are pushing.

Also keep in mind that Trump voters were not particularly poor. They might have been rural, but they were certainly not poor as a rule. 

[Boris the Blade]

17 minutes ago, Sullen said:

I see, you keep dumping all of the Rust Belt who didn't want to vote for Clinton (or even those who did vote for her) with the racists, that's your choice.

Have fun fucking up your country by depressing the voter base you need to retake power, I'm sure Republicans will leave a nice mess for you to pick up in 8-12 years. I seriously hope your party ignores people like you and your minorities/working class don't have to live through a decade of Republican rule.

And yeah, I've often heard the old saying "Respect is earned, not given", it's on par with "I hate all races equally" as far as bullshit excuses to justify acting like an edgy asshole go.

Lol they don't need them. You being Canadian and not American, I'll forgive your ignorance there. 
They do need to deal with gerrymandering. Once they deal with that, 

People like me? People like me are making up the party and the ones that are protesting and the ones that are pissed the fuck off this country can't admit there is a racism issue and bigotry issue as a whole. 

LMAO, I don't make excuses for being an asshole. I am one at times. But I have zero reason to respect fucking bigots. You can't give me a reason to be nice to them and not hurt their feelings with out looking spineless and cowardly to me.

[Kalbear]

4 hours ago, Sullen said:

They voted Obama in twice, they supported Sanders, they were Democrat states for decades.

They could be won over again, the Democrats just need to fix their act.

"They" largely didn't. "They" largely didn't vote at all for a while. Or they've been voting Republican consistently for a decade or more. The story isn't about who did vote for Trump, the story is about who didn't end up voting at all. 

[Rippounet]

2 minutes ago, Boris the Blade said:

You can't give me a reason to be nice to them and not hurt their feelings with out looking spineless and cowardly to me.

I think we can though because this is false:

Quote

Progress, especially regarding civil rights, isn't made by appeasing the oppressors / bigots and being nice to them and asking please. It's done by turning shit on it's head and fighting it head on. 

If you look at history, fighting oppression or bigots "head on" achieves little in itself. Information and education are required to convince a significant proportion of people that change is necessary. Once this is done, sometimes, a little force (i.e. political or legal action) is necessary, but such force only breeds resentment and revolt if the first stage has not been properly completed.

I understand the frustration. But paradoxically, in the face of any major opposition, one must begin by being patient and learn to communicate. After all, in the grand scheme of things, the only alternative is armed conflict, and one is never certain of prevailing in one of those. In fact, the greater the opposition and the greater patience is required.
Sometimes, one must even be ready to accept the fact that progress on a specific issue will not come about in one's lifetime.
I know it's not easy... Believe me I know. But the loftier your goals and the more you have to avoid being insulting. Progress isn't something you can impose on people ; progress is something people have to be convinced of.

[Sullen]

12 minutes ago, Kalbear said:

"They" largely didn't. "They" largely didn't vote at all for a while. Or they've been voting Republican consistently for a decade or more. The story isn't about who did vote for Trump, the story is about who didn't end up voting at all. 

Re-read the thread, I'm not making excuses for people who voted for Trump, I mostly advocated for those who abstained, or even voted for Clinton. Those are the people who need to be convinced/motivated, and were so disenchanted with the status quo/the current state of the DNC that they held off their votes even in the face of Trump.

15 minutes ago, Boris the Blade said:

Lol they don't need them. You being Canadian and not American, I'll forgive your ignorance there. 
They do need to deal with gerrymandering. Once they deal with that, 

Oh, the old classic "Canadians can't understand American politics", it's not as if we lived less than an hour away from the border, regularly visited, shared your entire culture but for a few differences, have family and potentially lived across the border, and followed your news to the minute detail because one of your farts in our direction means a freaking tornado to us.

And how do you think you're going to deal with gerrymandering if the GOP can essentially put its foot down wherever it really matters?

23 minutes ago, Boris the Blade said:

People like me? People like me are making up the party and the ones that are protesting and the ones that are pissed the fuck off this country can't admit there is a racism issue and bigotry issue as a whole. 

You're not merely protesting, you're jubilating at the thought of all those people dying, and are willing to represent all of the people who refused to support Clinton as a Monolith of Deplorables.

So yeah, people like you are definitely a part of the problem.

26 minutes ago, Boris the Blade said:

LMAO, I don't make excuses for being an asshole. I am one at times. But I have zero reason to respect fucking bigots. You can't give me a reason to be nice to them and not hurt their feelings with out looking spineless and cowardly to me.

Mate, "Respect is earned, not given" is the definition itself of an excuse for your behaviour.

And if you seriously think there's no way not to look spineless or cowardly without being a massive ponce, then I honestly don't know what to tell you, cowboy.

Also, you do have a reason to be respectful to them: You want to win, and the most vulnerable are the ones hurting while you're losing, behave for their sake, if not for simply acting like a respectful human being.

[Manhole Eunuchsbane]

48 minutes ago, Kalbear said:

You're assuming that this is the reason that Clinton lost. That's sort of the faulty presumption. Rural white voters did not change insanely for Trump, nor did they turn out in incredible amounts. It is more accurate to say that Democrats did not vote at the same level. 

It's also really difficult to say that Clinton the candidate didn't have factors here.

Really, the umbrage taken is silly. 

Oh yeah, absolutely. I'm not saying the "rural white voter" was the reason. It was one factor of many.

And I agree also that Clinton, her campaign, and the DNC itself were huge factors. There is a ton of blame to go around.   

[Altherion]

1 hour ago, Boris the Blade said:

You ever hear respect is earned not given? That is how I live my life. I'm not into that love my enemy hippy kumbaya bullshit. I have no issue punching down. I have no issue being an asshole to bigoted assholes. I'm not worried about winning them over since we never will.

That is an interesting perspective... but how do you think this is going to end? The people you are attacking can match you, self-righteousness for self-righteousness, rage for rage, expletive for expletive. Do you believe that there is some power that is guiding history to go the way you want?