Bluetiger Posted February 3, 2017 Share Posted February 3, 2017 4 minutes ago, Pain killer Jane said: Nice catch! Didn't one of the Hightower Kings use the Ironborn to build the walls around Oldtown? Indeed... Quote But after Qhored, a slow decline began. The kings who followed Qhored played a part in that, yet the men of the green lands were likewise growing stronger. The First Men were building longships of their own, their towns defended by stone walls in place of wooden palisades and spiked ditches. The Gardeners and the Hightowers were the first to cease paying tribute. When King Theon III Greyjoy sailed against them, he was defeated and slain by Lord Lymond Hightower, the Sea Lion, who revived the practice of thralldom in Oldtown just long enough to set the ironmen captured during the battle to hard labor strengthening the city's walls. The growing strength of the westerlands posed an even more acute threat to the dominion of the driftwood kings. Fair Isle was the first to fall, when its smallfolk rose up under Gylbert Farman to expel their ironborn overlords. A generation later, the Lannisters captured the town of Kayce when Herrock the Whoreson blew his great gold-banded horn and the town whores opened a postern gate to his men. Three successive ironborn kings attempted to retake the prize and failed, two of them dying on the point of Herrock's sword. (TWOIAF) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LmL Posted February 3, 2017 Author Share Posted February 3, 2017 20 minutes ago, Pain killer Jane said: I completely forgot about the custom of burying a sacrifice at the foundations of a new construction. I think you are right on a member of Watch being killed as a sacrifice. The 79 sentinels could be sacrifices to the wall. And we have a twisted version of the sacrifice in Maegor killing the architects and builders of the Red Keep. This was what I was getting at when I proposed that the first greenseers to enter a weirwood tree might have been sacrificed to the tree. These might be the garths stuck in there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frey family reunion Posted February 3, 2017 Share Posted February 3, 2017 1 hour ago, Pain killer Jane said: I completely forgot about the custom of burying a sacrifice at the foundations of a new construction. I think you are right on a member of Watch being killed as a sacrifice. The 79 sentinels could be sacrifices to the wall. And we have a twisted version of the sacrifice in Maegor killing the architects and builders of the Red Keep. My general thought of the "kitchen" at Night's gate, was that it really isn't a kitchen, but the ovens were used instead to pass their sacrifices "through fire" to generate the magic needed for the Wall. That's why I found the parallels between the appearance of the Dome of the Rock and the Night's Gate's "kitchen" so interesting. The Dome of the Rock allegedly stands over the spot where Abraham almost sacrificed his son to God. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pain killer Jane Posted February 4, 2017 Share Posted February 4, 2017 On 2/2/2017 at 0:53 PM, LmL said: Well, first off, spirits in wood are spirits in a tree, a clear allusion to greenseers, right? Boiling wine would correlate to burning blood and fire transformation imo, such as when Mel's blood is on fire, searing and blackening her from the inside when she has her fire vision in ADWD. The moon is what tends to drown most often, with the sea usually = blood, such as when Sam of the moon face is bathed in bull's blood by his abusive father, when dream Ygritte melts in the dream hot pool in the dream godswood, turning it to blood, and many more. So I found this today. Quote The Drunkard's Tower, off in the bog where the south and west walls had once met, leaned like a man about to spew a bellyful of wine into the gutter. The Karstark sunburst hung from the Drunkard's Tower, beneath the direwolf -Catelyn VIII, aGoT The Karstarks took the Drunkard's Tower and the Umbers the Children's Tower, he recalled. Robb claimed the Gatehouse Tower for his own. -Reek II, aDwD What does it signify that the Karstark with their sunburst took the Drunkard's Tower? Perhaps since it is a black tower green with moss could it be alluding to Robert Baratheon, a black stag that is green horned lord? He was a drunk after all. And I found another reference to cannibalism associated with the towers. Quote Reek remembered the dungeons underneath the Dreadfort, the rat squirming between his teeth, the taste of warm blood on his lips. If I fail, Ramsay will send me back to that, but first he'll flay the skin from another finger. "How many of the garrison are left?" "Some," said the ironman. "I don't know. Fewer than we was before. Some in the Drunkard's Tower too, I think. Not the Children's Tower. Dagon Codd went over there a few days back. Only two men left alive, he said, and they was eating on the dead ones. He killed them both, if you can believe that." -Reek II, aDWD I just want to point out the cannibalism of the dead at the Children's Tower where the Umbers had claimed first on the march south. And I thought it interesting that Theon thinks of eating rats right before he is told about cannibalism at the Children's Tower and later on as the Prince of Winterfell, Lord Manderly wants to hear the song about the Rat Cook, a man punished by the Gods, turned into a giant rat (traitor) and forced to hunt down his children to eat them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LmL Posted February 5, 2017 Author Share Posted February 5, 2017 On 12/26/2016 at 2:09 AM, Blue Tiger said: Who shall become Bifrost's destroyer, the flamimg sword-wielding Sudr? New Azor Ahai, who will burn entire world? Belated response here, but something occurred to me. If the Wall is Bifrost, and also symbolizes Dawn, then when the Wall inevitably breaks, it will be like Dawn breaking. I've been wondering if the saying "break of dawn" "dawn broke in eastern sky" etc. might be something George is working with, because there are so many broken swords in the story. The flaming sword that will break the Wall will be a meteor, I would expect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pain killer Jane Posted February 5, 2017 Share Posted February 5, 2017 On 2/3/2017 at 11:20 AM, Frey family reunion said: My general thought of the "kitchen" at Night's gate, was that it really isn't a kitchen, but the ovens were used instead to pass their sacrifices "through fire" to generate the magic needed for the Wall. That's why I found the parallels between the appearance of the Dome of the Rock and the Night's Gate's "kitchen" so interesting. The Dome of the Rock allegedly stands over the spot where Abraham almost sacrificed his son to God. That's an interesting theory, care to show some evidence. I often found things alluding to the Abraham story especially if there is a stone at the Heart of Winter given the sacrifice of Craster's sons to the Others. I would even equate the Heart of Winter to the Valley of Gehenna/Tophet and the Elenei/Durran story as an aspect of the Dinah story (the castration/broken sword theme we keep seeing is a combination of the circumcision and slaughter of the men of Shechem by two of Dinah's brothers). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LmL Posted February 5, 2017 Author Share Posted February 5, 2017 1 minute ago, Pain killer Jane said: (the castration/broken sword theme we keep seeing is a combination of the circumcision and slaughter of the men of Shechem by two of Dinah's brothers). I would love it if you expounded on this point a bit Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pain killer Jane Posted February 5, 2017 Share Posted February 5, 2017 10 hours ago, LmL said: I would love it if you expounded on this point a bit Well the circumcision came about as compromise between the people of Shechem and Jacob. Shechem's prince wanted to marry Dinah after he had 'taken' her virginity. The King purposed his son marrying Dinah and then Jacob's sons taking some of the women of Shechem as brides to better integrate Jacob's tribe into Shechem. Jacob purposed that they should circumcised themselves as a sacrifice to his god in order for the marriages to go through. The men of Shechem complied but three days later during their convalescences were murdered by Jacob's sons Levi and Simeon. Then they proceeded to loot and pillage Shecham and captured the women. The broken sword/castration is the loss of fertility and in the series is combined with sacrifice as in the case of the Unsullied where their genitals are taken and then burned upon the alter of their primordial mother goddess. The circumcision was the punishment for taking Dinah's virginity before marriage and was a sacrifice showing respect for Jacob's god. The circumcision would still allow procreation and thus continued fertility but it still requires the mutilation their genitals. Levi and Simeon murdering the men is the further step that leads me to believe that castration was the goal of the circumcision punishment. They didn't want the people of Shechem to further procreate nor procreate with them. The story ends with Jacob blessing/cursing both his sons because the neighbors will hear about what they did to Shechem and think Jacob's tribe will try it with them. And can I say that this story has an element of broken guest rite and we know about broken guest rite and punishment having to do with fertility, i.e. the Rat Cook. I want to point out that the primordial mother goddess that the Unsullied worship may perhaps be Elenei/Nissa Nissa in that drowned woman/deliverer of punishment aspect that is represented by Lady Stoneheart. And Elenei's story begins with Elenei giving her maidenhead to Durran and her parents visiting vengeance and fury upon them. Not a one-to-one correlation but Dinah's story is called the Rape of Dinah but the actual wording suggests that she gave the prince her virginity willingly. I hope that helps. Edit: this probably the inspiration for Lyanna and Rhaegar. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Cruise Posted March 23, 2017 Share Posted March 23, 2017 Hey @LmL; Have you found anything pointing towards the shadow binders being analogs to undead greenseers? Ie: Undead versions of an eastern version of a greenseer? This just popped into my head listening to your asshai episode with History of Westeros. If what we need to enter the far north to fight the war for the dawn is an undead greenseer, it makes sense that to enter the Shadow we would need some undead version of an eastern greenseer? This of course implies Quaith is undead. Love to hear your thoughts. Thx! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LmL Posted March 24, 2017 Author Share Posted March 24, 2017 On 3/23/2017 at 11:06 AM, Tom Cruise said: Hey @LmL; Have you found anything pointing towards the shadow binders being analogs to undead greenseers? Ie: Undead versions of an eastern version of a greenseer? This just popped into my head listening to your asshai episode with History of Westeros. If what we need to enter the far north to fight the war for the dawn is an undead greenseer, it makes sense that to enter the Shadow we would need some undead version of an eastern greenseer? This of course implies Quaith is undead. Love to hear your thoughts. Thx! Yeah, you know, that's a good open question, whether or not all magic is using the same basic power. I tend to think yes, because the Wall is a hinge of the world which can still amplify mel's fire magic, even though you'd think the Wall would be a hinge for ice magic. The ones I really wonder about are the Warlocks, since the shade trees are like inverted weirwoods. The Warlocks are like blue shadows, kind of like Others. It's hard to say. As for shadowbinders... man I really don't know. I definitely think they are either undead or transformed. I agree it's the same principle as going into the Heart of Winter - mortals cannot do it. I do think it's possible the GEotD people were actual greenseers, but's that's a whole nother topic I hope to get to one day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.