Ser Scot A Ellison

Memory, Sorrow, and Thorn/The Heart of what was Lost/The Last King of Osten Ard

309 posts in this topic

1 hour ago, ylvs said:
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That Miri already was pregnant during the epilogue is very much possible. I'm currently reading the ARC and will keep an eye open for the birthyear of JJ.

I'm not gonna tell you anymore, Lord Varys. But rest asured that things are interesting.

I didn't know the word retcon (not a native speaker), but yes. It is exactly that. And I agree that the broken mask should have been adressed in HOWWL. I do not rememeber a loss of the Breathing Harp and the Well and cannot find it neither. Do you have quote?

 

Didn't Tad release somewhere a dramatis personae of the characters from the new book? I think I saw something like that quite some time ago.

A retcon is a term in fan circles referring to a change of facts in a fictional series/universe after the fact, more often than not by providing a different (or better) explanation to get rid of previously established canon.

By the way, I've just seen that the fall of Asu'a is supposed to become the theme of the next novella. That could be interesting. The non-existing discussing of the whole Nisses mystery from MST is still vexing me. How did that guy have the skills to break the Sithi spells if not from the Norns/Utuk'ku? What was the point of the book he was writing and why/how did he and Hjeldin meet the gruesome end they did?

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The early character list is here: http://www.tadwilliams.com/forum/viewtopic.php?pid=863118#p863118

Thanks for explaining but of course the all knowing interwebs already had provided me with an explanation for retcon.

The fall of Asua will indeed be the theme for the next novella. Told from the perspective of a Nabbanai envoy to the Sithi court. I fear that it won't help with clarification for the Nisses mystery though as all this of course happens quite some time after the fall of Asu'a.

Edited by ylvs

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@ylvs

Didn't Ineluki's defeat destroy the power of all the magical wells they were using to fuel the powerful spell, especially the fountain back in Nakkiga and the harp where Ineluki was 'living'?

I think that was addressed around the same time they were talking about Utuk'ku's utter defeat. Now, the whole silver mask business seems to have been part of a vision back in MST (I don't recall whether Likimeya or Aditu gave that information to Simon and the reader). Tad could go around that by making it just appear to be just a vision/image symbolizing her mental state at that time but it is still not all that convincing.

As to Nisses: A depiction of the fall of Asu'a certainly should feature both him and Fingil, and cast more light on the motivations behind the whole thing. I was pretty irritated by the new novel apparently actually seeing the Norns not being positive about the destruction of Asu'a. MST very much indicated that there was virtually no love left between the two peoples, especially when Utuk'ku decided to kill Amerasu.

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Like him being in the book in the first place?

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Lord Varys, this is the relevant quote for Utuk'ku's defeat imho:

Spoiler

“Are we sure?” Simon turned to Jiriki. “Do we know they’ve failed?”

“Isgrimnur has told how the Hikeda’ya ed when the tower fell—those that still lived. I am not sorry that he did not pursue them, for they are few now, and our kind give birth infrequently. Many died at Naglimund, and many here. The fact that they ed instead of ghting to the death tells much: they are broken.”

“Even after Utuk’ku wrested control of the Pool from us,” Aditu said, “we fought her still. And when Ineluki began to cross over, we felt it.” The long pause was eloquent. “It was terrible. But we also felt it when his mortal body— King Elias’ body—died. Ineluki had abandoned the nowhere-place which had been his refuge, and risked nal dissolution to enter back into the world. He risked, and he lost. There is surely nothing left of him.”

Simon raised an eyebrow. “And Utuk’ku?”

“She lives, but her power is destroyed. She, too, gambled much, and it was through her magics that Ineluki’s being could be xed in the tower during the moment when Time was turned withershins. The failure blasted her.” Aditu xed him with her amber eyes. “I saw her, Seoman, saw her in my thoughts as clearly as if she stood before me. The res of Stormspike have gone dark and the halls are empty. She is all but alone, her silver mask shattered.”

“You mean you saw her? Saw her face?”

Aditu inclined her head. “Horror of her own antiquity made her hide her features long ago—but to you, Seoman Snowlock, she would seem nothing but an old woman. Her features are lined and sagging, her skin mottled. Utuk’ku Seyt-Hamakha is the Eldest, but her wisdom was corrupted by sel shness and vanity ages ago. She was ashamed that the years had caught up with her. And now even the terror and strength she wielded is gone.”

I read nothing of master witnesses or houses of traveling beyond being destroyed for good. And I don't remember it neiter. Maybe you err here. Honestly, I sincerly hope you do because otherwise there would be a proper continuity error in TWC ...

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23 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

@ylvs

Didn't Ineluki's defeat destroy the power of all the magical wells they were using to fuel the powerful spell, especially the fountain back in Nakkiga and the harp where Ineluki was 'living'?

I think that was addressed around the same time they were talking about Utuk'ku's utter defeat. Now, the whole silver mask business seems to have been part of a vision back in MST (I don't recall whether Likimeya or Aditu gave that information to Simon and the reader). Tad could go around that by making it just appear to be just a vision/image symbolizing her mental state at that time but it is still not all that convincing.

As to Nisses: A depiction of the fall of Asu'a certainly should feature both him and Fingil, and cast more light on the motivations behind the whole thing. I was pretty irritated by the new novel apparently actually seeing the Norns not being positive about the destruction of Asu'a. MST very much indicated that there was virtually no love left between the two peoples, especially when Utuk'ku decided to kill Amerasu.

Utuk'ku's power was destroyed, but that doesn't mean the Witnesses (or all of them, anyway) lost their power; indeed, the text indicates that the Houses of Travelling Beyond, at least, may pre-date the Sithi/Norns in Osten Ard. Aditu tells Simon that Utuk'ku's power, and her mask, are broken. But this says nothing about the Master Witnesses themselves.

You are right that Hjeldin/Nisses could be discussed in The Shadow of Things to Come; Hjeldin's father Fingil would definitely be there (or be mentioned, depending on the POVs that are used in the novel). it's not 100% clear that Hjeldin and Nisses were around at the Fall of Asu'a, but it's certainly possible... or even probable. And it would definitely provide much-needed resolution to some fan theories regarding Nisses (and whose side he was actually on). Personally, I would love to see Hjeldin and Nisses in TSOTTC, because it could clinch those fan theories regarding Utuk'ku's plans, and how long she actually was plotting (five centuries). If true, it would also show her utter betrayal of the Sithi.

 

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On 2/12/2017 at 0:28 PM, ylvs said:

And looking at it now: what a lovely short list this is. I was one of those who compiled the appendix for TWC. I would have loved such a short list of peeps ...

Haha! Exactly. But I seem to recall more than 300 in the final version of the appendix. 

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2 hours ago, ylvs said:

Lord Varys, this is the relevant quote for Utuk'ku's defeat imho:

  Reveal hidden contents

“Are we sure?” Simon turned to Jiriki. “Do we know they’ve failed?”

“Isgrimnur has told how the Hikeda’ya ed when the tower fell—those that still lived. I am not sorry that he did not pursue them, for they are few now, and our kind give birth infrequently. Many died at Naglimund, and many here. The fact that they ed instead of ghting to the death tells much: they are broken.”

“Even after Utuk’ku wrested control of the Pool from us,” Aditu said, “we fought her still. And when Ineluki began to cross over, we felt it.” The long pause was eloquent. “It was terrible. But we also felt it when his mortal body— King Elias’ body—died. Ineluki had abandoned the nowhere-place which had been his refuge, and risked nal dissolution to enter back into the world. He risked, and he lost. There is surely nothing left of him.”

Simon raised an eyebrow. “And Utuk’ku?”

“She lives, but her power is destroyed. She, too, gambled much, and it was through her magics that Ineluki’s being could be xed in the tower during the moment when Time was turned withershins. The failure blasted her.” Aditu xed him with her amber eyes. “I saw her, Seoman, saw her in my thoughts as clearly as if she stood before me. The res of Stormspike have gone dark and the halls are empty. She is all but alone, her silver mask shattered.”

“You mean you saw her? Saw her face?”

Aditu inclined her head. “Horror of her own antiquity made her hide her features long ago—but to you, Seoman Snowlock, she would seem nothing but an old woman. Her features are lined and sagging, her skin mottled. Utuk’ku Seyt-Hamakha is the Eldest, but her wisdom was corrupted by sel shness and vanity ages ago. She was ashamed that the years had caught up with her. And now even the terror and strength she wielded is gone.”

I read nothing of master witnesses or houses of traveling beyond being destroyed for good. And I don't remember it neiter. Maybe you err here. Honestly, I sincerly hope you do because otherwise there would be a proper continuity error in TWC ...

I guess I'm wrong there. I must have jumped to conclusions (or rather created pictures in mind) on the basis of the lights going out in Nakkiga, and Utuk'ku losing all her power. A lot of her power was stored in those magical artifacts, no?

But I'm happy that I was wrong there. Is the silver mask issue addressed in TWC? Since Utuk'ku shows up, and you and Tad both should remember what happened to the mask she should no longer wear it, right?

Her as the new big bad certainly is interesting. This whole concept of an evil Galadriel was pretty interesting from the start, much more so than the whole Ineluki thing. And a lot about her background is still completely unknown.

Care to elaborate a little bit whether the new novella was relevant, especially as to the whole Norn politicking and apparent attempt by the Sithi to reach out to the Norns. Technically the only consequence of that can be that Utuk'ku is going to face some opposition/betrayal from amongst her own ranks. 

And what are your thoughts? What kind of jewel did Porto when they killed the giant? Is Suno'ku truly dead? If so, what was the point of her character in the first place? With whom did Ayaminu speak? Only Yaarike (very likely) or also with Suno'ku?

1 hour ago, Jiriki said:

You are right that Hjeldin/Nisses could be discussed in The Shadow of Things to Come; Hjeldin's father Fingil would definitely be there (or be mentioned, depending on the POVs that are used in the novel). it's not 100% clear that Hjeldin and Nisses were around at the Fall of Asu'a, but it's certainly possible... or even probable.

Not sure about Hjeldin, since I've no idea how old Fingil was at the time of the destruction of Asu'a. Could be that he only had his son Hjeldin thereafter. However, Nisses is described to have come from the far north (Black Rimmersgard) and his powers and knowledge enabled Fingil to break the spells of the Sithi. At least one point, I'm not sure in which book, either Stone of Farewell or early on in To Green Angel Tower. I expected this to be later on, either in Utuk'ku's POV or by either Pryrates or Cadrach. Little did I know that these people basically had no idea about anything...

Utuk'ku playing a very long game there would make a lot of sense. The new novella hinted at another layer about her past, with the whole stuff about her and her consort having different spouses/offspring once. She can easily enough have much more issues with the Sithi than just that business with the humans. And it would make sense to put Rimmersmen against the Sithi, and then later Ineluki against all humanity. Not to mention that he would have been used, at least by extension, also against his own people. 

1 hour ago, Jiriki said:

And it would definitely provide much-needed resolution to some fan theories regarding Nisses (and whose side he was actually on). Personally, I would love to see Hjeldin and Nisses in TSOTTC, because it could clinch those fan theories regarding Utuk'ku's plans, and how long she actually was plotting (five centuries). If true, it would also show her utter betrayal of the Sithi.

The open mystery there is what the hell his book was about. If Nisses was Utuk'ku's man why the hell did he write prophecies about the Storm King's eventual victory? Were they trying to create a creature like him? What caused his and Hjeldin's ugly deaths? There is no reason to assume that Utuk'ku would kill her servant, nor does it make any sense that Ineluki would kill a man whose prophecies would profit him in the future. Not to mention that he would have been unable to do so considering that he no longer had could hang out in Asu'a.

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9 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

I guess I'm wrong there. I must have jumped to conclusions (or rather created pictures in mind) on the basis of the lights going out in Nakkiga, and Utuk'ku losing all her power. A lot of her power was stored in those magical artifacts, no?

But I'm happy that I was wrong there. Is the silver mask issue addressed in TWC? Since Utuk'ku shows up, and you and Tad both should remember what happened to the mask she should no longer wear it, right?

Her as the new big bad certainly is interesting. This whole concept of an evil Galadriel was pretty interesting from the start, much more so than the whole Ineluki thing. And a lot about her background is still completely unknown.

Care to elaborate a little bit whether the new novella was relevant, especially as to the whole Norn politicking and apparent attempt by the Sithi to reach out to the Norns. Technically the only consequence of that can be that Utuk'ku is going to face some opposition/betrayal from amongst her own ranks. 

And what are your thoughts? What kind of jewel did Porto when they killed the giant? Is Suno'ku truly dead? If so, what was the point of her character in the first place? With whom did Ayaminu speak? Only Yaarike (very likely) or also with Suno'ku?

Not sure about Hjeldin, since I've no idea how old Fingil was at the time of the destruction of Asu'a. Could be that he only had his son Hjeldin thereafter. However, Nisses is described to have come from the far north (Black Rimmersgard) and his powers and knowledge enabled Fingil to break the spells of the Sithi. At least one point, I'm not sure in which book, either Stone of Farewell or early on in To Green Angel Tower. I expected this to be later on, either in Utuk'ku's POV or by either Pryrates or Cadrach. Little did I know that these people basically had no idea about anything...

Utuk'ku playing a very long game there would make a lot of sense. The new novella hinted at another layer about her past, with the whole stuff about her and her consort having different spouses/offspring once. She can easily enough have much more issues with the Sithi than just that business with the humans. And it would make sense to put Rimmersmen against the Sithi, and then later Ineluki against all humanity. Not to mention that he would have been used, at least by extension, also against his own people. 

The open mystery there is what the hell his book was about. If Nisses was Utuk'ku's man why the hell did he write prophecies about the Storm King's eventual victory? Were they trying to create a creature like him? What caused his and Hjeldin's ugly deaths? There is no reason to assume that Utuk'ku would kill her servant, nor does it make any sense that Ineluki would kill a man whose prophecies would profit him in the future. Not to mention that he would have been unable to do so considering that he no longer had could hang out in Asu'a.

 

You raise a good question about Ekimeniso's (Utuk'ku's husband's) past. The revelation that he had another wife/lover in HOWWL, and had at least one child from that pairing, was very interesting. We never heard about that in MS&T. Could that have anything to do with Utuk'ku's 2000+ year grudge with the Sithi, and specifically House of Year-Dancing? It seems possible. We know Utuk'ku and Jenjiyana of the Nightingales were fierce rivals. And of course, the tragedy with Drukhi/Nenais'u caused the Parting of the Two Families.

Regarding Nisses, if he was indeed the servant of Utuk'ku and Ineluki, maybe Utuk'ku felt he knew too much, and disposed of him, just as she dispatched her servants, the Talons: they were assassins who were never expected to return, and their death-songs had already been sung. If this is how she views her own people, disposing of a mortal servant would in no way be controversial. Indeed, we see something very similar in her handling of Ingen Jegger: he is her tool.

Regarding TWC details, I'm sworn to secrecy.

 

 

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I thought some more about the mask issue in HOWWL. Here's the thing: Utuk’ku does not appear in the novel so it it might very well be that the mask was indeed broken and maybe redone but we just did not hear about it. Plus as you said, Lord Varys we only have Aditu's vision as proof anyway. For the time being that is explanation enough for me.

*is easily mollified*

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On 14.2.2017 at 0:02 AM, Jiriki said:

You raise a good question about Ekimeniso's (Utuk'ku's husband's) past. The revelation that he had another wife/lover in HOWWL, and had at least one child from that pairing, was very interesting. We never heard about that in MS&T. Could that have anything to do with Utuk'ku's 2000+ year grudge with the Sithi, and specifically House of Year-Dancing? It seems possible. We know Utuk'ku and Jenjiyana of the Nightingales were fierce rivals. And of course, the tragedy with Drukhi/Nenais'u caused the Parting of the Two Families.

Unfortunately I'm not all that well-versed in the Gardenborn family trees. I just heard the German audio book quite some time ago. I remember the Drukhi thing, and also that Utuk'ku is Amerasu's (great-)grandmother? The German edition had some inconsistency there.

One would assume that Ekimeniso had a child prior to his marriage to Utuk'ku unless polyamory is a thing among them.

On 14.2.2017 at 0:02 AM, Jiriki said:

Regarding Nisses, if he was indeed the servant of Utuk'ku and Ineluki, maybe Utuk'ku felt he knew too much, and disposed of him, just as she dispatched her servants, the Talons: they were assassins who were never expected to return, and their death-songs had already been sung. If this is how she views her own people, disposing of a mortal servant would in no way be controversial. Indeed, we see something very similar in her handling of Ingen Jegger: he is her tool.

That is true, but there is still a lot of potential there. Nisses might have been Utuk'ku's pawn, but Ineluki wouldn't have known that, and he certainly had a lot of reasons to kill that guy no matter what.

I don't understand a lot of the stuff that happens early on in MST. Pryrates contacts Utuk'ku and Ineluki while he is in Hjeldin's Tower. Now, if he could do that somehow then Nisses might have been able to do it, too.

The really weird thing is that strange plot device that kept Ineluki outside of Asu'a the entire time. If Nisses power originates with the Norns he should not have had the power to banish a specific Gardenborn from that place. And who else could have done that? It would have taken quite some time to figure out who and what this Storm King thing was.

On 14.2.2017 at 0:02 AM, Jiriki said:

Regarding TWC details, I'm sworn to secrecy.

Oh, I wasn't asking about plot details. Just trying to gather whether you guys overlooked inconsistencies even I'm aware of. Surely you would have pointed out that mask conundrum to Tad if it was actually a thing.

On 14.2.2017 at 11:09 PM, ylvs said:

I thought some more about the mask issue in HOWWL. Here's the thing: Utuk’ku does not appear in the novel so it it might very well be that the mask was indeed broken and maybe redone but we just did not hear about it. Plus as you said, Lord Varys we only have Aditu's vision as proof anyway. For the time being that is explanation enough for me.

*is easily mollified*

Sure, it could go down that way. One could even interpret the whole thing as her greatest fear being to be seen without her mask, and in the moment of her great defeat that could have been a mental image she was sending out.

But if the mask was actually broken and she still wears it without explanation in the new series then this doesn't make much sense. And the idea that it was *repaired* would also stretch credibility somewhat.

I really look forward to this series now, considering that themes seem to explore on the very ancient stuff as well as about the future. That seems to be a good way to continue things. Originally I feared we might get some sort of evil foreign invasion plot, or the continuation of the 'magic disappears' story. Both wouldn't be all that interesting.

Although I certainly would insist that Hakatri should show up in the flesh now. Hell, even Ineluki doesn't have to be gone completely (we have no confirmation that his buddies are destroyed, have we?). We still have no idea what the point of his grand plan was? Rewind the time to watch his people die in Elias' body?

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Lord Varys,  I am really looking forward to discussing TWC with you.

Rest assured that we brought up all inconsistencies we noticed with Tad. From important ones like the mask down to minor ones as only once mentioned daughters of Isgrimnur being absent from a family gathering in Elvritshalla. I think we were quite thorough. We gave our best.

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17 minutes ago, ylvs said:

Lord Varys,  I am really looking forward to discussing TWC with you.

Rest assured that we brought up all inconsistencies we noticed with Tad. From important ones like the mask down to minor ones as only once mentioned daughters of Isgrimnur being absent from a family gathering in Elvritshalla. I think we were quite thorough. We gave our best.

I'm sure you did. I'm pretty sure you weren't mentioned by accident in the foreword to the new novella ;-).

I just hope Tad has gotten over his tendency to tell a lot of the plot through the eyes of the people who have no clue what the plot is about. Simon and others spent a lot of time with people who had no idea what was going on. That really slowed down the story to the extreme, at times. There is a reason why failed two times actually trying to read those books.

That tendency was there in 'Otherland', too, but not to such high a degree as in MST.

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For anyone who is interested here is the chapter titles:

Spoiler

Foreword

PART ONE: WIDOWS

Ch. 1 - The Glorious
Ch. 2 -  The Finest Tent on the Frostmarch
Ch. 3 - Brother Monarchs
Ch. 4 - Awake
Ch. 5 - An Aversion to Widows
Ch. 6 - Conversation with a Corpse-Giant
Ch. 7 - Island of Bones
Ch. 8 - A Meeting On Lantern Bridge
Ch. 9 - Heart of the Kynswood
Ch. 10 - Hymns of the Lightless
Ch. 11 - The Third Duke
Ch. 12 -The bloody Sand  
Ch. 13 - Lady Alva's Tale
Ch. 14 - Ghosts of the Garden    
Ch. 15 - Atop of the Holy Tree
Ch. 16 - A Layer of Fresh Snow
Ch. 17 - White Hand No Shadow
Ch. 18 - A Bad Book
Ch. 19 - The Moon's Token
Ch. 20 - His Bright Gem
Ch. 21 - Crossroad
Ch. 22 - Death Songs
Ch. 23 - Testament of the White Hand

PART TWO: ORPHANS

Ch. 24 - Terrible Flame
Ch. 25 - Example of a Dead Hedgehog
Ch. 26 - The Inner Council
Ch. 27 - Noontide At The Quarely Maid
Ch. 28 - Cradle Songs of Red Pig Lagoon
Ch. 29 - Brown Bones and Black Statues
Ch. 30 - The Slow Game
Ch. 31 - A High, Dark Place
Ch. 32 - Rosewater and Balsam
Ch. 33 - Secrets and Promises
Ch. 34 - Feeding The Familiar
Ch. 35 - The Man with the Odd Smile
Ch. 36 - A Foolish Dream
Ch. 37 - Two Bedroom Conversations
Ch. 38 - The Factor's Ship
Ch. 39 - A Grassland Wedding
Ch. 40 - Watching Like God

PART THREE: EXILES

Ch. 41 - Hern's Horde
Ch. 42 - Forest Music
Ch. 43 - Into Deeper Shadows
Ch. 44 - Charms and Tokens
Ch. 45 - A Nighttime Sun
Ch. 46 - River Man
Ch. 47 - Hidden Chambers
Ch. 48 - The Little Boats
Ch. 49 - Blood As Black As Night
Ch. 50 - Several Matters of State
Ch. 51 - Stolen Scales
Ch. 52 - Homecoming
Ch. 53 - Their Masterss' Folly
Ch. 54 - Voices Unheard, Faces Unseen

Afterword

 

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Posted (edited)

"Hern's Hoarde" and "Brother Monarchs" strongly suggest Hernystir will be important to the story I wonder if there will be conflict between Hernystir and Erkinland?

Edited by Ser Scot A Ellison

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