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Clegane'sPup

Mysterious footprints

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I see from the below quote Theon and company left WF out of the Hunter’s Gate in search of Bran & company.  Beyond the outer wall there were wolf tracks, Hodor’s heavy tread, and Reed kid footprints.  The tracks lead into the wolfswood.

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A Clash of Kings - Theon IV     They assembled by the Hunter's Gate as the first pale rays of the sun brushed the top of the Bell Tower, their breath frosting in the cold morning air. <snip>   Eleven men, two boys, and a dozen dogs crossed the moat. Beyond the outer wall, the tracks were plain to read in the soft ground; the pawprints of the wolves, Hodor's heavy tread, the shallower marks left by the feet of the two Reeds. Once under the trees, the stony ground and fallen leaves made the trail harder to see, but by then Farlen's red bitch had the scent.

Theon seized WF with less than 30 men. Assuming the WF citizens helped the little Stark lords, surely there would have been tracks and scent inside the castle walls? Osha carrying Rickon, Hodor carrying Bran, and the two Reed kids would need to go to WF's godswood to free the direwolves where Ser Rodrik had confined them.

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A Clash of Kings - Bran I     Ser Rodrik had confined the wolves to the godswood after Shaggydog bit Little Walder, but the stones of Winterfell played queer tricks with sound, and sometimes it sounded as if they were in the yard right below Bran's window.

Sooooooooo, leaving logic & common sense behind and considering the tracks and scent were outside the outer wall of WF --- are there any ideas how Bran and companions managed to materialize (poof) into the WF crypt?

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6 hours ago, Clegane'sPup said:

I see from the below quote Theon and company left WF out of the Hunter’s Gate in search of Bran & company.  Beyond the outer wall there were wolf tracks, Hodor’s heavy tread, and Reed kid footprints.  The tracks lead into the wolfswood.

Theon seized WF with less than 30 men. Assuming the WF citizens helped the little Stark lords, surely there would have been tracks and scent inside the castle walls? Osha carrying Rickon, Hodor carrying Bran, and the two Reed kids would need to go to WF's godswood to free the direwolves where Ser Rodrik had confined them.

 

Sooooooooo, leaving logic & common sense behind and considering the tracks and scent were outside the outer wall of WF --- are there any ideas how Bran and companions managed to materialize (poof) into the WF crypt?

Maybe they didn't attempt to "use" the dogs until they were outside. 

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10 hours ago, Clegane'sPup said:

I see from the below quote Theon and company left WF out of the Hunter’s Gate in search of Bran & company.  Beyond the outer wall there were wolf tracks, Hodor’s heavy tread, and Reed kid footprints.  The tracks lead into the wolfswood.

Theon seized WF with less than 30 men. Assuming the WF citizens helped the little Stark lords, surely there would have been tracks and scent inside the castle walls? Osha carrying Rickon, Hodor carrying Bran, and the two Reed kids would need to go to WF's godswood to free the direwolves where Ser Rodrik had confined them.

 

Sooooooooo, leaving logic & common sense behind and considering the tracks and scent were outside the outer wall of WF --- are there any ideas how Bran and companions managed to materialize (poof) into the WF crypt?

I think there is mention of a secret passage in and out Winterfell that only Bran knows. So they sent the wolves ahead to confuse the hounds and they came back using that passage

 

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21 hours ago, Clegane'sPup said:

I see from the below quote Theon and company left WF out of the Hunter’s Gate in search of Bran & company.  Beyond the outer wall there were wolf tracks, Hodor’s heavy tread, and Reed kid footprints.  The tracks lead into the wolfswood.

Theon seized WF with less than 30 men. Assuming the WF citizens helped the little Stark lords, surely there would have been tracks and scent inside the castle walls? Osha carrying Rickon, Hodor carrying Bran, and the two Reed kids would need to go to WF's godswood to free the direwolves where Ser Rodrik had confined them.

 

Sooooooooo, leaving logic & common sense behind and considering the tracks and scent were outside the outer wall of WF --- are there any ideas how Bran and companions managed to materialize (poof) into the WF crypt?

Osha planned ahead to mislead the search party that she knew was coming.  I could be wrong since it's been a while since I read those chapters but I thought they were purposely doubling back and crossing their trails.  

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11 hours ago, rotting sea cow said:

I think there is mention of a secret passage in and out Winterfell that only Bran knows. So they sent the wolves ahead to confuse the hounds and they came back using that passage

 

Bran's secret passage takes one from the south gate to the north gate (or vice versa).

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12 hours ago, rotting sea cow said:

I think there is mention of a secret passage in and out Winterfell that only Bran knows. So they sent the wolves ahead to confuse the hounds and they came back using that passage

 

 

1 hour ago, Widowmaker 811 said:

Osha planned ahead to mislead the search party that she knew was coming.  I could be wrong since it's been a while since I read those chapters but I thought they were purposely doubling back and crossing their trails.  

I like the idea that perhaps the secret passage/tunnel could have been used.

Quote

A Game of Thrones - Bran II      And he knew you could get inside the inner wall by the south gate, climb three floors and run all the way around Winterfell through a narrow tunnel in the stone, and then come out on ground level at the north gate, with a hundred feet of wall looming over you. Even Maester Luwin didn't know that, Bran was convinced.

In hindsight I get it that Theon and company went on a wild goose chase. That’s what needed to be done to move the story forward.

Adjusting my antennae, Bran told Osha about the passage in the wall? I sooooo want this mysterious passage Bran described to be used by someone.

Perhaps Lywin released the direwolves from the godswood. Osha stashed Bran and Rickon in the crypts before she, Hodor, the Reeds and the wolves made tracks out of WF.

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A Clash of Kings - Theon IV    Less than an hour later, the trail led down a slope toward a muddy brook swollen by the recent rains. It was there the dogs lost the scent. Farlen and Wex waded across with the hounds and came back shaking their heads while the animals ranged up and down the far bank, sniffing. "They went in here, m'lord, but I can't see where they come out," the kennelmaster said.

Ramsey aka Reek suggests the millers kids as a match for the the Stark kids,. After that is accomplished Ramsey/Reek goes off to get help. Rodrick is ambushed. WF is burned. And it is revealed that Bran & company have been hiding in the crypts.

Basically I’m just trying to stir up some chatter. No point to prove.

Theon said

Quote

A Clash of Kings - Theon IV     They assembled by the Hunter's Gate as the first pale rays of the sun brushed the top of the Bell Tower, their breath frosting in the cold morning air. <snip>    Eleven men, two boys, and a dozen dogs crossed the moat. Beyond the outer wall, the tracks were plain to read in the soft ground; the pawprints of the wolves, Hodor's heavy tread, the shallower marks left by the feet of the two Reeds. Once under the trees, the stony ground and fallen leaves made the trail harder to see, but by then Farlen's red bitch had the scent.

But less than an hour later

Quote

A Clash of Kings - Theon IV    Less than an hour later, the trail led down a slope toward a muddy brook swollen by the recent rains. It was there the dogs lost the scent. Farlen and Wex waded across with the hounds and came back shaking their heads while the animals ranged up and down the far bank, sniffing. "They went in here, m'lord, but I can't see where they come out," the kennelmaster said.

I’m asking anyone not you specifically, how did Hodor, the Reed kids and Osha get back into WF.

There is bound to be some tinfoil and argument floating around out there somewhere.

 

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10 hours ago, Clegane'sPup said:

Adjusting my antennae, Bran told Osha about the passage in the wall? I sooooo want this mysterious passage Bran described to be used by someone.

It is possible it has been already put in use, depending who the (un)hooded man is.

It is also possible it will be used to take WF if Bran is able to pass that information to Theon.

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4 hours ago, rotting sea cow said:

It is possible it has been already put in use, depending who the (un)hooded man is.

It is also possible it will be used to take WF if Bran is able to pass that information to Theon.

You understand the passage that Bran talked about only leads from one place inside Winterfell to another place within Winterfell, right? There maybe a passage that leads into Winterfell from the outside (and I believe there is), but the passage Bran describes doesn't lead to the outside. 

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Spit balling. This is what don't understand about Bran's secret passage that I so want someone to use.

WF is a double walled castle. In between the double wall is a moat. I would need to climb an outer wall and swim across a moat to gain access to the inner wall. Once I get to the inner wall I have to grapple again. A drawbridge serves as a deterrent when closed.

Quote

A Game of Thrones - Bran II      And he knew you could get inside the inner wall by the south gate, climb three floors and run all the way around Winterfell through a narrow tunnel in the stone, and then come out on ground level at the north gate, with a hundred feet of wall looming over you. Even Maester Luwin didn't know that, Bran was convinced.

I have tried unsuccessfully to get an understanding of Martin's descriptions of the WF gates. The South gate seems to be the main gate.

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4 hours ago, Clegane'sPup said:

Spit balling. This is what don't understand about Bran's secret passage that I so want someone to use.

WF is a double walled castle. In between the double wall is a moat. I would need to climb an outer wall and swim across a moat to gain access to the inner wall. Once I get to the inner wall I have to grapple again. A drawbridge serves as a deterrent when closed.

I have tried unsuccessfully to get an understanding of Martin's descriptions of the WF gates. The South gate seems to be the main gate.

The way I have it figured there is a possibility that the passage Bran talks about was originally an escape route for the family. When Theon, Holly and Freya were getting Jeyne out, I tried to figure out where they were at each step. From this I think the Great Hall and family living quarters are just inside the south gate. Just inside the north gate are the crypts. If, as is speculated, there is a secret passage that leads out of the castle in the crypts, then the secret passage out would be at the opposite edge of the castle from where the family lives. Bran's secret passage would allow the family to move from their living quarters to the escape passage while avoiding any fighting happening between the two locations. This is just my guess. Feel free to disagree.

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Posted (edited)

I'm not directly contributing help, so I apologize, but would someone care to reword what he's saying for me? I notice the "secret passage" every time I read the series. Something about the wording is just confusing!
 

Quote

 

It taught him Winterfell’s secrets too. The builders had not even leveled the earth; there were hills and valleys behind the walls of Winterfell. There was a covered bridge that went from the fourth floor of the bell tower across to the second floor of the rookery. Bran knew about that. And he knew you could get inside the inner wall by the south gate, climb three floors and run all the way around Winterfell through a narrow tunnel in the stone, and then come out on ground level at the north gate, with a hundred feet of wall looming over you. Even Maester Luwin didn’t know that, Bran was convinced.

Martin, George R.R.. A Game of Thrones: A Song of Ice and Fire: Book One (p. 75). Random House Publishing Group. Kindle Edition.

 

  1. So, the first bolded statement is fairly straightforward and believable when you remember that Winterfell castle is spread across several acres. Bran's saying that buildings/structures are on different elevations. So these buildings/structures can look the same height when you stand in front of them, but, relative to one another, they don't line up exactly.
  2. This is where I'm confused... Maybe it's the first part. IDoes he mean there's a passageway inside the stones of the inner wall that leads to the north gate? Along the way through this passage you climb three stories but when you exit at the north gate you exit at ground level? This would loop back to what he points out in the first bullet.

Sorry if this seemed obvious to everyone else, but his wording (specifically "inside") is odd/confusing. <_<

Something that could be helpful is that I don't believe that all the gates in the inner wall directly lead across the moat and to another gate. I want to say there is at least one gate when you cross the moat and have to walk the perimeter to another gate. Depending on the gates they used to get in/get out, it could help shed light on how they doubled back and evaded capture.

Edited by Traverys

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On 5/7/2017 at 11:05 PM, Foot_Of_The_King said:

Maybe they didn't attempt to "use" the dogs until they were outside. 

People are overthinking this.  Theon has already searched the castle, (obviously missing the crypts) and thinks that they have escaped.  Since Osha, Hodor and Rickon have been running all around the castle for years, what scent would the dogs key on.  They wouldn't have tried to use the dogs until they got a track outside Winterfell.  If the dogs got a track going back to the castle, they would assume that's the outgoing track.

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1 hour ago, Traverys said:

I'm not directly contributing help, so I apologize, but would someone care to reword what he's saying for me? I notice the "secret passage" every time I read the series. Something about the wording is just confusing!
 

  1. So, the first bolded statement is fairly straightforward and believable when you remember that Winterfell castle is spread across several acres. Bran's saying that buildings/structures are on different elevations. So these buildings/structures can look the same height when you stand in front of them, but, relative to one another, they don't line up exactly.
  2. This is where I'm confused... Maybe it's the first part. IDoes he mean there's a passageway inside the stones of the inner wall that leads to the north gate? Along the way through this passage you climb three stories but when you exit at the north gate you exit at ground level? This would loop back to what he points out in the first bullet.

Sorry if this seemed obvious to everyone else, but his wording (specifically "inside") is odd/confusing. <_<

Something that could be helpful is that I don't believe that all the gates in the inner wall directly lead across the moat and to another gate. I want to say there is at least one gate when you cross the moat and have to walk the perimeter to another gate. Depending on the gates they used to get in/get out, it could help shed light on how they doubled back and evaded capture.

Yes. Bran is saying there is a passageway inside of the inner wall. As you move through this passageway you will go up three staircases (they are probably not all together). This indicates that the north gate sits "three stories" higher than the south gate. It definitely relates back to the first statement about the ground not being leveled to construct Winterfell. As you say, Winterfell covers several acres and is a very large place. The distance from the south gate to the north gate is pretty large and such a passageway between the two places would be better built with several stairways rather than a long sloping floor, imo.

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Posted (edited)

31 minutes ago, bent branch said:

Yes. Bran is saying there is a passageway inside of the inner wall. As you move through this passageway you will go up three staircases (they are probably not all together). This indicates that the north gate sits "three stories" higher than the south gate. It definitely relates back to the first statement about the ground not being leveled to construct Winterfell. As you say, Winterfell covers several acres and is a very large place. The distance from the south gate to the north gate is pretty large and such a passageway between the two places would be better built with several stairways rather than a long sloping floor, imo.

Thanks for the clarification. I'm still not sure how that would necessarily be useful in the future, except maybe as a mean to flank/pincer an enemy occupying the castle. To accomplish that you would have to be able to get through the outer wall and inner gate, so I don't see how it would allow people to be sneaky. Even if the number of guards are limited, you always want people by a gate.

Edited by Traverys

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38 minutes ago, Traverys said:

Thanks for the clarification. I'm still not sure how that would necessarily be useful in the future, except maybe as a mean to flank/pincer an enemy occupying the castle. To accomplish that you would have to be able to get through the outer wall and inner gate, so I don't see how it would allow people to be sneaky. Even if the number of guards are limited, you always want people by a gate.

Like I said before, the only use I can see for it is to allow individuals to move from south to north (or vice versa) when there are combatants inside Winterfell (or if you wanted to move stealthily). If you look at the maps of Winterfell that have been done, it would be difficult to move in a north/south direction with fighting going on in Winterfell. I kind of suspect that Luwin took the boys to the crypts through this passage. As I pointed out, the two ends are near the living quarters in the south and the crypts in the north.

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28 minutes ago, bent branch said:

Like I said before, the only use I can see for it is to allow individuals to move from south to north (or vice versa) when there are combatants inside Winterfell (or if you wanted to move stealthily). If you look at the maps of Winterfell that have been done, it would be difficult to move in a north/south direction with fighting going on in Winterfell. I kind of suspect that Luwin took the boys to the crypts through this passage. As I pointed out, the two ends are near the living quarters in the south and the crypts in the north.

Not that this prevents them from using the passage to get to the crypts, but Maester Luwin wasn't privy to their escape or the plan. When they find him dying in the godswood he mentions he knew that the bodies were not Bran and Rickon's due to discrepancies (Bran's legs, off the top of my head).

So that would just leave Osha as the mastermind, which we already know she was the brains behind the false escape trail.

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1 hour ago, Traverys said:

Not that this prevents them from using the passage to get to the crypts, but Maester Luwin wasn't privy to their escape or the plan. When they find him dying in the godswood he mentions he knew that the bodies were not Bran and Rickon's due to discrepancies (Bran's legs, off the top of my head).

So that would just leave Osha as the mastermind, which we already know she was the brains behind the false escape trail.

You're right. I forgot it was Osha that helped them escape. Bran might have told Osha. We do know they got from the Great Hall to the crypts somehow without being seen. This passageway would have been good for that. Anyhow, it is possible that the importance of the secret passage was as an explanation given ahead of time as to how they escaped and also as a hint that other secret passages may exist.

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18 hours ago, sharkhawk said:

People are overthinking this.  Theon has already searched the castle, (obviously missing the crypts) and thinks that they have escaped.  Since Osha, Hodor and Rickon have been running all around the castle for years, what scent would the dogs key on.  They wouldn't have tried to use the dogs until they got a track outside Winterfell.  If the dogs got a track going back to the castle, they would assume that's the outgoing track.

Theon sent someone to check on the direwolves and whether Bran and Rickon were in their quarters.

I agree people scents would be spread over the WF landscape. There were actual foot & paw prints outside WF. That seems to insinuate that the wolves, Hodor and the Reed kids left WF and went into the wolfswood. Yet the whole gang is hiding out in the crypts when Ramsey torches WF.

Quote

A Clash of Kings - Theon IV     They assembled by the Hunter's Gate as the first pale rays of the sun brushed the top of the Bell Tower, their breath frosting in the cold morning air. <snip>    Eleven men, two boys, and a dozen dogs crossed the moat. Beyond the outer wall, the tracks were plain to read in the soft ground; the pawprints of the wolves, Hodor's heavy tread, the shallower marks left by the feet of the two Reeds. Once under the trees, the stony ground and fallen leaves made the trail harder to see, but by then Farlen's red bitch had the scent.

As to the over thinking thang, me thinks I said I was spit balling, not looking to prove a point. These frecking WF gates come into play again later in the story.

Quote

A Dance with Dragons - A Ghost in Winterfell   Winterfell's great main gates were closed and barred, and so choked with ice and snow that the portcullis would need to be chipped free before it could be raised. Much the same was true of the Hunter's Gate, though there at least ice was not a problem, since the gate had seen recent use. The Kingsroad Gate had not, and ice had frozen those drawbridge chains rock hard. Which left the Battlements Gate, a small arched postern in the inner wall. Only half a gate, in truth, it had a drawbridge that spanned the frozen moat but no corresponding gateway through the outer wall, offering access to the outer ramparts but not the world beyond.

Quote

A Dance with Dragons - Theon I    Ser Hosteen, assemble your knights and men-at-arms by the main gates. As you are so eager for battle, you shall strike our first blow. Lord Wyman, gather your White Harbor men by the east gate. They shall go forth as well."

I started out questioning how Bran & company managed to get into the crypts. Then talking about the secret passage. Now I've moved on to Theon's observations about the WF gates.

 

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18 hours ago, bent branch said:

Like I said before, the only use I can see for it is to allow individuals to move from south to north (or vice versa) when there are combatants inside Winterfell (or if you wanted to move stealthily).

Regarding moving stealthily: What if the lord of Winterfell was having an affair and didn't want his wife or others to know about it? I suspect the author wants us to compare this Winterfell secret passageway to those all around Maegor's Holdfast and the Red Keep. We know there was a way to bring a prostitute discretely into the sleeping chamber of the Hand of the King, but we don't know how often it was used before Tyrion lived there.

And where there is one passageway, how many others might there be? The Gendel and Gorne story implies that there might be many other hidden passages in the vicinity of Winterfell.

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On 5/9/2017 at 10:32 PM, bent branch said:

The way I have it figured there is a possibility that the passage Bran talks about was originally an escape route for the family. When Theon, Holly and Freya were getting Jeyne out, I tried to figure out where they were at each step. From this I think the Great Hall and family living quarters are just inside the south gate. Just inside the north gate are the crypts. If, as is speculated, there is a secret passage that leads out of the castle in the crypts, then the secret passage out would be at the opposite edge of the castle from where the family lives. Bran's secret passage would allow the family to move from their living quarters to the escape passage while avoiding any fighting happening between the two locations. This is just my guess. Feel free to disagree.

Thanks. I agree about the north gate and the crypts.

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