What was special about Syrio Forel?

cpg2016 · June 20, 2017

On 6/16/2017 at 11:44 AM, LiveFirstDieLater said:

I don't think it's a mistake by GRRM. I think there are probably multiple way since to disguise yourself, including both glamors and "face wearing". We see Jaquen change his face in front of Arya without any physical tools... so it's possible.

Again, I think this is a result of GRRM not having his magic system sorted out. He's very upfront about his writing style, about how he develops plot elements as he goes.

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As for Ned giving the three common men to the Nights Watch... ya that's the point, I don't know why this is hard for you to get. Maybe I'm explaining poorly.

We do not know Syrio died... please show me that text if you disagree... but he did disappear after Ned gave away the 3 prisoners in the Cells.

You aren't explaining poorly. You just don't understand the timeline or the text (or... really anything about narrative and thematic structure, but that's another debate). There are three prisoners in the Black Cells while Ned is Hand of the King. Which means, Syrio is not in the Black Cells.

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I'm suggesting he took one of their place with the help of Varys/Rugen who has free access to the cells. No part of this is contradicted or even complicated by the men already being there. In fact Ned's order giving them to the Nights watch sets up the reasoning for the switch.

THERE IS NO REASONING FOR A SWITCH!!! You haven't even come up with an explanation as to why Syrio/Jaqen wants to go, IN A CAGE, with the Night's Watch. So why would Syrio/Jaqen do it? It doesn't make a lick of sense. He's already free, in his Syrio identity, to go wherever he wants. Why get himself locked in a cage? And again, why is Varys helping? Basically every character in the whole scheme needs a totally unrevealed motive, when there is a much simpler explanation. Syrio Forel died, because he was an unarmored man with a wooden sword facing a knight. A knight we happen to know is a particularly cruel asshole, at that. Why in the world is he risking death to get himself thrown in the Black Cells, so he can switch out with a prisoner, and join the Night's Watch (or head in that direction) when all he had to do was abandon Arya and be on his way? Why is he training Arya in the first place? He spends weeks doing so, which doesn't further his mission at all. At every single turn there are holes in this theory, and not one convincing reason to believe it except "it's possible". And to reiterate, why is Varys helping him get a body out?

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I certainly do not see any timeline issue, Syrio escapes from the Trant fight after buying Arya time... and with the help of Varys takes a prisoners place (we don't even know if Jaquen was a real person or just an identity).

Fine. If you assume every character has a hidden motivation and identity, fine.

But why? You have AT LEAST five questions to answer before your theory becomes even plausible, let alone likely.

1. Why is Varys helping Syrio/Jaqen?

2. What reason could Syrio/Jaqen have for joining the Night's Watch, or for going in that direction when we know he is heading to Oldtown?

3. If we have a reason for Syrio/Jaqen to head to the Riverlands and then turn around, then why doesn't he just volunteer for the Night's Watch and then do this on his own? Why get himself locked in a cage when it would be just as easy for him to volunteer? Hell, he could change his face in the night and leave the caravan and be totally fine.

4. Why is Syrio/Jaqen spending weeks or months training Arya when his mission lies somewhere else? He's an assassin, that is his only job.

5. How does he become a master swordsman, recognized as such by great lords? I doubt Ned hired some dude off the street to train his daughter; Syrio is coming with references beyond just "I was First Sword of Braavos"? He clearly is a very talented swordsman, as evidenced by AGOT Ch. 50, where he pretty effortlessly beats some guardsmen and then holds off a Kingsguard knight.

Once you've found an airtight answer to all of those question, you have a plausible theory and nothing more. You still have done absolutely nothing to prove your theory. And you haven't yet provided a good reason for ANY of them.

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And GRRM is exactly the kind of author to pull a got'ya scene... especially with a character death... are you kidding? (See Bran, Rickon, Arya, Jon, Tyron, Davos, Brienne etc.)

First off, every single one of those characters was revealed to be alive or relatively unharmed almost immediately after the "gotcha" scene. Those are all also POV characters (except Rickon, whose "death" was tied in to Bran's), meaning they have narrative importance, but we've already established you don't understand or respect that portion of the argument, so leave it alone.

It's just stupid to have this tertiary character, who has been "dead" for four books, suddenly be alive again. If GRRM followed his previous convention, we would have realized Syrio was Jaqen in ACOK or ASOS. If we never get his identity (and it's pretty clear that (a) he's not Syrio and (b) even if he was we won't be told) then it isn't a "gotcha" moment, it's just a stupid retcon.

Every other hidden identity has had plenty of clues to allow us to sort out the person's identity. And I cannot stress this enough, there are no clues about Jaqen/Syrio. You are confusing a "clue" with the fact that the author never said that Syrio was dead. We never hear that dozens of characters are dead. Why not claim that Gerion Lannister is actually Jaqen/Syrio? We never hear that he's dead, and if he became a Faceless Man, he can change his face. We have equally as much evidence for this theory as the Jaqen/Syrio one. In fact, there is less circumstantial evidence arguing against it!

We never hear that Arthur Dayne is dead; we only get the assertion that a cairn was built and that he would have killed Ned without Howland Reed. Maybe Syrio is actually Arthur Dayne, hmm?

See how stupid this is? Your only evidence thus far is the circumstantial evidence that GRRM never shows us Syrio's body, and that a Faceless Man is in the prisons. Since he is still a man, it makes FAR more sense than something went wrong on a contract of his, he got caught, and that was that, rather than that he wasted months of time masquerading as Syrio to teach Arya, only to be thrown into prison AFTER all that, to get in the Night's Watch caravan, when all he had to do was join it as himself, or join earlier, or whatever the hell your ridiculous motive for him is.

LiveFirstDieLater · June 20, 2017

1 hour ago, cpg2016 said:

Again, I think this is a result of GRRM not having his magic system sorted out. He's very upfront about his writing style, about how he develops plot elements as he goes.

You aren't explaining poorly. You just don't understand the timeline or the text (or... really anything about narrative and thematic structure, but that's another debate). There are three prisoners in the Black Cells while Ned is Hand of the King. Which means, Syrio is not in the Black Cells.

THERE IS NO REASONING FOR A SWITCH!!! You haven't even come up with an explanation as to why Syrio/Jaqen wants to go, IN A CAGE, with the Night's Watch. So why would Syrio/Jaqen do it? It doesn't make a lick of sense. He's already free, in his Syrio identity, to go wherever he wants. Why get himself locked in a cage? And again, why is Varys helping? Basically every character in the whole scheme needs a totally unrevealed motive, when there is a much simpler explanation. Syrio Forel died, because he was an unarmored man with a wooden sword facing a knight. A knight we happen to know is a particularly cruel asshole, at that. Why in the world is he risking death to get himself thrown in the Black Cells, so he can switch out with a prisoner, and join the Night's Watch (or head in that direction) when all he had to do was abandon Arya and be on his way? Why is he training Arya in the first place? He spends weeks doing so, which doesn't further his mission at all. At every single turn there are holes in this theory, and not one convincing reason to believe it except "it's possible". And to reiterate, why is Varys helping him get a body out?

Fine. If you assume every character has a hidden motivation and identity, fine.

But why? You have AT LEAST five questions to answer before your theory becomes even plausible, let alone likely.

1. Why is Varys helping Syrio/Jaqen?

2. What reason could Syrio/Jaqen have for joining the Night's Watch, or for going in that direction when we know he is heading to Oldtown?

3. If we have a reason for Syrio/Jaqen to head to the Riverlands and then turn around, then why doesn't he just volunteer for the Night's Watch and then do this on his own? Why get himself locked in a cage when it would be just as easy for him to volunteer? Hell, he could change his face in the night and leave the caravan and be totally fine.

4. Why is Syrio/Jaqen spending weeks or months training Arya when his mission lies somewhere else? He's an assassin, that is his only job.

5. How does he become a master swordsman, recognized as such by great lords? I doubt Ned hired some dude off the street to train his daughter; Syrio is coming with references beyond just "I was First Sword of Braavos"? He clearly is a very talented swordsman, as evidenced by AGOT Ch. 50, where he pretty effortlessly beats some guardsmen and then holds off a Kingsguard knight.

Once you've found an airtight answer to all of those question, you have a plausible theory and nothing more. You still have done absolutely nothing to prove your theory. And you haven't yet provided a good reason for ANY of them.

First off, every single one of those characters was revealed to be alive or relatively unharmed almost immediately after the "gotcha" scene. Those are all also POV characters (except Rickon, whose "death" was tied in to Bran's), meaning they have narrative importance, but we've already established you don't understand or respect that portion of the argument, so leave it alone.

It's just stupid to have this tertiary character, who has been "dead" for four books, suddenly be alive again. If GRRM followed his previous convention, we would have realized Syrio was Jaqen in ACOK or ASOS. If we never get his identity (and it's pretty clear that (a) he's not Syrio and (b) even if he was we won't be told) then it isn't a "gotcha" moment, it's just a stupid retcon.

Every other hidden identity has had plenty of clues to allow us to sort out the person's identity. And I cannot stress this enough, there are no clues about Jaqen/Syrio. You are confusing a "clue" with the fact that the author never said that Syrio was dead. We never hear that dozens of characters are dead. Why not claim that Gerion Lannister is actually Jaqen/Syrio? We never hear that he's dead, and if he became a Faceless Man, he can change his face. We have equally as much evidence for this theory as the Jaqen/Syrio one. In fact, there is less circumstantial evidence arguing against it!

We never hear that Arthur Dayne is dead; we only get the assertion that a cairn was built and that he would have killed Ned without Howland Reed. Maybe Syrio is actually Arthur Dayne, hmm?

See how stupid this is? Your only evidence thus far is the circumstantial evidence that GRRM never shows us Syrio's body, and that a Faceless Man is in the prisons. Since he is still a man, it makes FAR more sense than something went wrong on a contract of his, he got caught, and that was that, rather than that he wasted months of time masquerading as Syrio to teach Arya, only to be thrown into prison AFTER all that, to get in the Night's Watch caravan, when all he had to do was join it as himself, or join earlier, or whatever the hell your ridiculous motive for him is.

You are really passionate about this huh?

ok starting with the questions...

1. I believe both Varys and Illyrio are faceless men, and that Syrio/Jaquen/Alchemist/FacelessManOnBridge are one and the same. They are all in league. I could speculate on the grander plot if you want, involving Maesters, Eureon, Aegon, and Dany... but it can wait.

2. I don't remember Jaquen joining the Nights Watch? I do remember him being disguised as a prisoner in the black cells (that's indisputable right?). Since he is a highly effective assassin capable of incredible disguise, and ive never even heard it suggested that a facelessman could be caught (let alone that one was caught in Kings Landing), I would suggest he was there on purpose. Why do you think he was in Yoren's cart? I believe he was trying to get close to Ned, so he could fulfil Varys's promises to Ned and Illyrio that Ned would die. And actually I think he stopped by the Iron Islands and killed Balon Greyjoy before going to Oldtown and killing Pate.

3. This comes back to what is the explanation for Jaquen to be in a Black Cell. I'm suggesting that if Syrio was in league with Varys he might have gone to him after escaping Trant. Remember the Red Keep was on lockdown after/during the coup. Varys could easily have suggested (and helped facilitate as Rugen) him taking the place of one of the prisoners in the Black Cells scheduled to go North. Perhaps why the other two prisoners fear him so much. This makes way more sense to me than that a faceless man got caught.

4. It's unclear to me exactly what the mission of the Faceless Men is. Theories abound, but I would guess they are slightly more than just knives for hire. Of course if Arya had made an impression with Syrio it might be that he cared about her, or saw potential. As to why act as Arya's Dancing Teacher in the first place? I told you I think he was trying to get close to Ned.

5. There is no denying Syrio was good with a sword. But I'd expect Jaquen to be talented as well... either I'd expect to be better than Bron, who proves it's possible to defeat a fully armored knight. In fact, Syrio is rather contemptuous of the "iron dance of Westeros". Also, Syrio was not so famous that he was recognized. In fact the opposite, he could pass as a dancing teacher. He came very well recommended to Ned, but we don't know who recommended him (I'd suggest Varys). There is no evidence anyone else ever recognizes him, in fact it's not clear he and Ned ever meet in person. Trant and Cersei certainly just call him a dancing teacher. Only Arya ever knows him as "The First Sword of Braavos" in their private lessons.

Now I don't have proof (otherwise it wouldn't be a theory), but it's not as ridiculous as you make it sound. This isn't Benjen and Daario...

Syrio disappears just before Jaquen appears. And it's worth noting that the portion of the fight we see is remarkably similar to Bron's fight in the Vale (where we see less well armored combatant prevail). Jaquen shows the ability to change his appearance and still lacks any explanation as to why he was in the Black Cells. Both have a similar relationship to Arya (including the odd calling her a boy when they know who she is).

You might think it's stupid and you might be right, but I think it makes perfect sense for Arya's arc, especially since I believe she will have to choose between her loyalty to the Faceless Men and her identity as a Stark. The betrayal of having her mentor and guardian in Syrio and Jaquen having only been in Westeros to kill her dad in the first place would fit nicely. But of course that is getting pretty deep down the rabbit hole of speculation and personal opinion.

In conclusion... you really think a faceless man was caught and put in the Black Cells? What was he doing in Kingslanding in the first place? Do you have a more satisfying answer than that the master assassin was clumsy, got caught, and it just happened to be when all this was going on?

cpg2016 · June 20, 2017

44 minutes ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

1. I believe both Varys and Illyrio are faceless men, and that Syrio/Jaquen/Alchemist/FacelessManOnBridge are one and the same. They are all in league. I could speculate on the grander plot if you want, involving Maesters, Eureon, Aegon, and Dany... but it can wait.

I mean... okay. Why not Ned Stark, too? Or Arthur Dayne? Or Azor Ahai, who has been alive all this time as a Faceless Man?

And for what it's worth, I agree that the Alchemist, Balon's killer, and Jaqen are the same. I think he's a rogue FM working for Euron (who uses the dragon's egg to pay for Balon's killing, and then has Jaqen break into the Citadel to steal The Death of Dragons).

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2. I don't remember Jaquen joining the Nights Watch? I do remember him being disguised as a prisoner in the black cells (that's indisputable right?). Since he is a highly effective assassin capable of incredible disguise, and ive never even heard it suggested that a facelessman could be caught (let alone that one was caught in Kings Landing), I would suggest he was there on purpose. Why do you think he was in Yoren's cart? I believe he was trying to get close to Ned, so he could fulfil Varys's promises to Ned and Illyrio that Ned would die. And actually I think he stopped by the Iron Islands and killed Balon Greyjoy before going to Oldtown and killing Pate.

He didn't. There were three prisoners in the Black Cells, one of which was Jaqen. We know that while those three prisoners are in there, Syrio is free and walking around at the same time. So Syrio cannot physically be one of those three prisoners. Your theory seems to be that he allowed himself to be captured, so that he could be placed in the same cell, and replace one of those three, so that he could be placed into a cage, under armed guard, so that.... something. The motivation for this, as opposed to disguising yourself as, say... a random guy joining the Watch (which gets you in the same spot, minus the cage) is one of the many holes in your theory. Remember, Jaqen was this close to dying in that cage.

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Since he is a highly effective assassin capable of incredible disguise, and ive never even heard it suggested that a facelessman could be caught (let alone that one was caught in Kings Landing), I would suggest he was there on purpose.

Why not? We have no backstory; maybe he got caught sneaking somewhere he shouldn't. The Faceless Men tend to adopt personas of random people, so maybe some guards caught him lurking around the Red Keep for some purpose and threw him in prison. We KNOW the FM don't kill except their targets, so it makes perfect narrative sense that Jaqen is unwilling to kill a bunch of innocent guards just to escape. If he even can. Recall, we have no evidence that the Faceless Men are particularly strong, or skilled, or anything - just that they can look like anyone.

52 minutes ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

3. This comes back to what is the explanation for Jaquen to be in a Black Cell. I'm suggesting that if Syrio was in league with Varys he might have gone to him after escaping Trant. Remember the Red Keep was on lockdown after/during the coup. Varys could easily have suggested (and helped facilitate as Rugen) him taking the place of one of the prisoners in the Black Cells scheduled to go North. Perhaps why the other two prisoners fear him so much. This makes way more sense to me than that a faceless man got caught.

Right, but don't you see how many threads are needed to connect this? Nothing suggests Syrio escaped Meryn Trant. Nothing suggests Varys is in league with the Faceless Men. In fact, quite a lot suggests he's not, and has been playing his own game for like 20 years. And if the other two prisoners know who he is, why aren't they saying? They could buy a pardon with the knowledge that a Stark loyalist is running around; you think they'd try, even if no one believes them. None of this makes any sense. You could make this case for literally ANY SINGLE CHARACTER in King's Landing.

55 minutes ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

4. It's unclear to me exactly what the mission of the Faceless Men is. Theories abound, but I would guess they are slightly more than just knives for hire. Of course if Arya had made an impression with Syrio it might be that he cared about her, or saw potential. As to why act as Arya's Dancing Teacher in the first place? I told you I think he was trying to get close to Ned.

Um, then you aren't reading closely enough. They are a quasi-religious group of assassins. What gives you any indication they are more than an especially skilled group of assassins?

And why is he trying to get close to Ned? Varys, your supposed conspirator, has NO IDEA that Ned is going to make such a hash of things in the capital. Yes, he suspects it will come to war between Stark and Lannister eventually, but remember he's not pulling those strings, and he wants more time, not less. Almost any other noble would have acted as Renly suggested, and taken control of the city and Joffrey. Varys isn't a god, and he isn't omniscient.

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But I'd expect Jaquen to be talented as well...

Why? We have zero evidence that FM are skilled swordsmen. Zip. Zilch. None.

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Trant and Cersei certainly just call him a dancing teacher. Only Arya ever knows him as "The First Sword of Braavos" in their private lessons.

OK.... but go read AGOT Ch 50. He is described as killing five men, at once, with a wooden sword. He is very clearly one of, if not the most, talented swordsmen we see in the entire series.

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Now I don't have proof (otherwise it wouldn't be a theory), but it's not as ridiculous as you make it sound. This isn't Benjen and Daario...

Why not? We have just as much evidence that Brynden is Daario. Never seen in the same place at the same time. We are never told how long Daario has been in the Stormcrows. Maybe Benjen lost a tooth going to Essos, got it replaced in gold, dyed his beard, and viola!

You realize that theory requires far fewer moving parts to be true than Syrio-as-Jaqen.

For example, we can be nearly sure Varys isn't a Faceless Man. We know his story, and none of it involves years of training in the House of Black and White. Moreover, we know his motivations - he wants his "perfect prince" on the throne, and that's fAegon.

Again, you haven't given evidence. You've drawn connections because they are convenient, not because they make sense. It makes as much sense for Syrio to be Benjen. The absence of denial is not the presence of confirmation.

And once more, let us be clear - every other mystery, we are tipped off ahead of time. And by authorial intent. Jon's parentage is hinted at in Dany's vision. Fake Aegon's heritage is given away by his demeanor, and his eyes, and by the name of his "father". If Jaqen can be Syrio, merely because they were near the same place and the same time, then why can't ANY character be ANY other character on the same basis? What's the point of even having distinct characters? Why not make every character have multiple aliases? Again, Syrio-as-Jaqen serves no narrative or thematic purpose, so once you establish that GRRM is willing to be an idiot and have certain characters be other chracters for no reason, why not extend it to every other character?

Maybe Benjen is the Weeper? Perhaps Loras lied about killing Emmon Cuy and Robar Royce, and they're wandering around impersonating various characters? Once you accept that logic and evidence don't matter, and only circumstance and lack of denial are needed to validate a theory, almost anyone can be anyone.

Nevets · June 20, 2017

2 hours ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

1. I believe both Varys and Illyrio are faceless men, and that Syrio/Jaquen/Alchemist/FacelessManOnBridge are one and the same. They are all in league. I could speculate on the grander plot if you want, involving Maesters, Eureon, Aegon, and Dany... but it can wait.

If Syrio is really Jaquen, why didn't he show Arya Syrio's face at Harrrenhal when he changed faces for her. That would have definitely impressed her (and us). Also, what is he doing spending several months teaching her swordcraft, when he could be doing something much more useful, and why did he agree to go to Winterfell with them. I don't think that Ned or the North is that important, and, anyway, Ned wasn't going with them.

2 hours ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

2. I don't remember Jaquen joining the Nights Watch? I do remember him being disguised as a prisoner in the black cells (that's indisputable right?). Since he is a highly effective assassin capable of incredible disguise, and ive never even heard it suggested that a facelessman could be caught (let alone that one was caught in Kings Landing), I would suggest he was there on purpose. Why do you think he was in Yoren's cart? I believe he was trying to get close to Ned, so he could fulfil Varys's promises to Ned and Illyrio that Ned would die. And actually I think he stopped by the Iron Islands and killed Balon Greyjoy before going to Oldtown and killing Pate.

Master criminals get caught all the time. Often it is because someone betrays them, they make a mistake, or some cop gets incredibly lucky. Any of these could have happened to Jaquen. and, to be honest, from what I have seen of their operations in Braavos, they don't strike me as being more than very capable and careful operatives who can easily change appearances. Which means they can still get caught if they are unlucky.

2 hours ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

3. This comes back to what is the explanation for Jaquen to be in a Black Cell. I'm suggesting that if Syrio was in league with Varys he might have gone to him after escaping Trant. Remember the Red Keep was on lockdown after/during the coup. Varys could easily have suggested (and helped facilitate as Rugen) him taking the place of one of the prisoners in the Black Cells scheduled to go North. Perhaps why the other two prisoners fear him so much. This makes way more sense to me than that a faceless man got caught.

If Syrio can change his face that easily, then he can just as easily pretend to be Joe Beggar from Flea Bottom who decides that the NW is better than starving on the streets of KL. Which enables him to join Yoren's convoy as one of the 20 or so adult men who aren't confined. That way, he can easily do whatever he needs to do, and slip away with no difficulty.

3 hours ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

4. It's unclear to me exactly what the mission of the Faceless Men is. Theories abound, but I would guess they are slightly more than just knives for hire. Of course if Arya had made an impression with Syrio it might be that he cared about her, or saw potential. As to why act as Arya's Dancing Teacher in the first place? I told you I think he was trying to get close to Ned.

If he was trying to get close to Ned, then why did he have virtually no interaction with Ned during the time he was instructing Arya? And why would he agree to go with her and Sansa to Winterfell, when Ned is staying behind in KL. If you want to suggest ulterior motives for getting close to Arya, fine. But I don't see the point of that, either.

I do agree that the FM seem to be more than simply assassins. My guess is that they also gather intelligence and general information (reliable information on events being valuable in a place like ASOIAF-land). This could even be more important than killing people. Certainly, Arya's training seems more geared in that direction.

3 hours ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

5. There is no denying Syrio was good with a sword. But I'd expect Jaquen to be talented as well... either I'd expect to be better than Bron, who proves it's possible to defeat a fully armored knight. In fact, Syrio is rather contemptuous of the "iron dance of Westeros". Also, Syrio was not so famous that he was recognized. In fact the opposite, he could pass as a dancing teacher. He came very well recommended to Ned, but we don't know who recommended him (I'd suggest Varys). There is no evidence anyone else ever recognizes him, in fact it's not clear he and Ned ever meet in person. Trant and Cersei certainly just call him a dancing teacher. Only Arya ever knows him as "The First Sword of Braavos" in their private lessons.

Bronn had a real sword. If he had had a stick, Vardis would have wiped the floor with him. Similarly, if Syrio had had a real sword, Ser Meryn wouldn't have stood a chance.

3 hours ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

In conclusion... you really think a faceless man was caught and put in the Black Cells? What was he doing in Kingslanding in the first place? Do you have a more satisfying answer than that the master assassin was clumsy, got caught, and it just happened to be when all this was going on?

Actually, yes I do believe that. Actually, I think that he was placed in the black cells by none other than George R.R. Martin in order to advance Arya's story, and that Martin never gave any thought as to why he was there, nor did he expect anyone to care, or get thousands of others to care with them. (Remember, at this time the series was essentially unknown, as was the internet).

If you want an actual reason as to why he was in KL, it is a major city which certainly has many people willing to pay big money for either someone else's death or good intel.

The Mountain that Cries · June 20, 2017

I do believe that Syrio is himself a faceless man maybe even Jaqen H'gar. We have no clue who what or how he is defeated by Sr Meryn Trant or how the latter got into a black cell. I like to believe the faceless men know more about everything that is happening than we know. I also think Maester have been highly infiltrated by the faceless men.

LiveFirstDieLater · June 21, 2017

23 hours ago, Nevets said:

If Syrio is really Jaquen, why didn't he show Arya Syrio's face at Harrrenhal when he changed faces for her. That would have definitely impressed her (and us). Also, what is he doing spending several months teaching her swordcraft, when he could be doing something much more useful, and why did he agree to go to Winterfell with them. I don't think that Ned or the North is that important, and, anyway, Ned wasn't going with them.

Master criminals get caught all the time. Often it is because someone betrays them, they make a mistake, or some cop gets incredibly lucky. Any of these could have happened to Jaquen. and, to be honest, from what I have seen of their operations in Braavos, they don't strike me as being more than very capable and careful operatives who can easily change appearances. Which means they can still get caught if they are unlucky.

If Syrio can change his face that easily, then he can just as easily pretend to be Joe Beggar from Flea Bottom who decides that the NW is better than starving on the streets of KL. Which enables him to join Yoren's convoy as one of the 20 or so adult men who aren't confined. That way, he can easily do whatever he needs to do, and slip away with no difficulty.

If he was trying to get close to Ned, then why did he have virtually no interaction with Ned during the time he was instructing Arya? And why would he agree to go with her and Sansa to Winterfell, when Ned is staying behind in KL. If you want to suggest ulterior motives for getting close to Arya, fine. But I don't see the point of that, either.

I do agree that the FM seem to be more than simply assassins. My guess is that they also gather intelligence and general information (reliable information on events being valuable in a place like ASOIAF-land). This could even be more important than killing people. Certainly, Arya's training seems more geared in that direction.

Bronn had a real sword. If he had had a stick, Vardis would have wiped the floor with him. Similarly, if Syrio had had a real sword, Ser Meryn wouldn't have stood a chance.

Actually, yes I do believe that. Actually, I think that he was placed in the black cells by none other than George R.R. Martin in order to advance Arya's story, and that Martin never gave any thought as to why he was there, nor did he expect anyone to care, or get thousands of others to care with them. (Remember, at this time the series was essentially unknown, as was the internet).

If you want an actual reason as to why he was in KL, it is a major city which certainly has many people willing to pay big money for either someone else's death or good intel.

Why not show Arya?

Why would he show Arya Syrio's face? Setting aside the fact that it's still unclear what's the rules are surrounding the faceless men's disguise, and I don't think we've seen any of them reapply a disguise, nor do we know if the face Arya sees is a real face or a disguise... The faceless men are trying to convince her to give up being Arya Stark and to become no-one, just a girl. Appearing as Syrio wouldn't aid this goal in any way I see.

Ned's not that important:

Ned was hand of the King and the second most powerful man in the seven kingdoms. After Roberts death, there was every reason to believe he would be regent. If Ned wasn't such an honest guy who felt compelled to warn Cersei and pass on Renley's support he would have ruled the Seven Kingdoms. (But ya, heavy sarcasm here, a faceless man was probably in Kings Landing for some nameless unsung reason and at the same time Ned isn't important enough to warrant attention, really consistent).

Master Criminals get caught all the time:

This is contradicted by the remarkable confidence of everyone who ever mentions the faceless men saying they never fail.

why not Joe Beggar?

It might have been hard to get out of the red keep... maybe they didn't know if Yoren would just take anyone with him at this point. Meanwhile they knew Ned had already signed the orders giving the prisoners to the NW, and that he had agreed to admit guilt and go with Yoren himself. We could speculate endlessly about roads not taken... better to work with the info we have.

Why agree to go to Winterfell?

Now remember the timeline here, Ned plans to send his daughters home, confront Cersei, then give the crown to Stannis. If he had accepted Renley's help he might have succeeded. However, I don't think Varys intended to let that happen, it seems his intention was to brew chaos but keep a lid on it as long as possible. Anyway, the point is that by the point we see Syrio talk about Winterfell it's the same day as he coup and likely just a part of his cover. There are guards waiting at the ship to intercept Arya anyway.

Bron had a sword:

there were about a half a dozen swords lying around the room from the guards Syrio had already dispatched... and he doesn't need to kill Trant, all he has to do is not die.

Dues Ex Martin put a Faceless Man in the Black Cells:

Its certainly possible, but this is a guy who bothered to create backgrounds for the other two, far less important, prisoners. I guess this just hinges around how believable you think it is that he placed a face changing master assassin in a prison with no explanation.

cpg2016 · June 29, 2017

On 6/21/2017 at 4:33 PM, LiveFirstDieLater said:

Ned was hand of the King and the second most powerful man in the seven kingdoms. After Roberts death, there was every reason to believe he would be regent. If Ned wasn't such an honest guy who felt compelled to warn Cersei and pass on Renley's support he would have ruled the Seven Kingdoms. (But ya, heavy sarcasm here, a faceless man was probably in Kings Landing for some nameless unsung reason and at the same time Ned isn't important enough to warrant attention, really consistent).

Well there is strong evidence to say that the FM killed Balon. And Jaqen clearly has a mission to complete in Oldtown. So... there are many reasons for him to be in Kings Landing, which is the closest port of call from Braavos. Why risk a long trip by sea, which is extremely dangerous, when he can travel overland?

On 6/21/2017 at 4:33 PM, LiveFirstDieLater said:

This is contradicted by the remarkable confidence of everyone who ever mentions the faceless men saying they never fail.

Which is NOT to say that a Faceless Man never fails. The point is that they'll keep trying til they get their victim.

On 6/21/2017 at 4:33 PM, LiveFirstDieLater said:

Its certainly possible, but this is a guy who bothered to create backgrounds for the other two, far less important, prisoners. I guess this just hinges around how believable you think it is that he placed a face changing master assassin in a prison with no explanation.

Because an explanation isn't germane to the story. We don't know why Rorge or Biter were in there, either. What Jaqen was doing is unimportant to his story.

Look, GRRM is obviously a good writer. So when you make up a crazy theory, ask yourself what purpose it serves narratively. Just about every other plotline furthers a point he's trying to make. This one does nothing, and he's not a "gotcha!" kind of author. Jon's identity is a thematic refutation of the "born to be a hero" storyline. Yes, he's a head of the dragon, but he doesn't know it - he earns his heroism through his actions, not because he has prophetic plot armor (as Rhaegar believed).

LynnS · June 29, 2017

On 2017-06-14 at 1:12 PM, ravenous reader said:

That's an interesting notion. In that case, I'd speculate one would have to be a 'Faceless Man' oneself in order to see through the guise of another Faceless Man, analogous to how one skinchanger can sense another, even when he or she is 'hiding' in the body of a skinchanging host.

I think it likely that Syrio is an identity used by the faceless men dispatched by the many-faced god to bring her into the fold.

Quote

A Clash of Kings - Arya IX

"The debt is paid," Arya agreed reluctantly. She felt a little sad. Now she was just a mouse again.

"A god has his due. And now a man must die." A strange smile touched the lips of Jaqen H'ghar.

"Die?" she said, confused. What did he mean? "But I unsaid the name. You don't need to die now."

"I do. My time is done." Jaqen passed a hand down his face from forehead to chin, and where it went he changed. His cheeks grew fuller, his eyes closer; his nose hooked, a scar appeared on his right cheek where no scar had been before. And when he shook his head, his long straight hair, half red and half white, dissolved away to reveal a cap of tight black curls.

Arya's mouth hung open. "Who are you?" she whispered, too astonished to be afraid. "How did you do that? Was it hard?"

It seems to me that the faceless men are not bound by one identity at a time; but emulate the many-faced god by concealing more than one identity; discarding faces when their time is done in exchange for one on hand or a new face that they collect.. We see this with the taking Pate's face and identity. Perhaps with this sort of blade:

Quote

A Clash of Kings - Arya IX

"You swore. The gods heard you swear."

"The gods did hear." There was a knife in his hand suddenly, its blade thin as her little finger. Whether it was meant for her or him, Arya could not say. "A girl will weep. A girl will lose her only friend."

I imagine that poor Pate is completely unrecognizable after the Alchemist is finished with him, relieved of his identity.

The notion that Syrio is a faceless man came up several years ago and we don't know what actually happened to him after Arya leaves him. He may well have been taken prisoner or given himself up to be placed in the Black Cells with the three promised to the Watch. One of whom he replaced causing Rorge and Biter to fear him...

The Faceless Men are not just assassins; they collect information with eyes to see and ears to hear. It would be a simple thing for Syrio to present himself to Ned and offer his services and credentials of First Sword of the Sealord of Braavos. Syrio may have known about the prisoners Ned gave over to the Watch. What a convenient way to escape.

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A Clash of Kings - Arya II

Look with your eyes, Syrio had said, listen with your ears.

A Clash of Kings - Arya II

"A man does not choose his companions in the black cells," the handsome one with the red-and-white hair said. Something about the way he talked reminded her of Syrio; it was the same, yet different too. "These two, they have no courtesy. A man must ask forgiveness. You are called Arry, is that not so?"

What was it that Jaqen did to cause Yoren to keep him in chains? I suspect an identity switch and dead body without a face in the Black Cells. Syrio is dead.

Quote

A Clash of Kings - Arya IX

She had been avoiding the Lorathi since Weese's death. Chiswyck had been easy, anyone could push a man off the wallwalk, but Weese had raised that ugly spotted dog from a pup, and only some dark magic could have turned the animal against him. Yoren found Jaqen in a black cell, the same as Rorge and Biter, she remembered. Jaqen did something horrible and Yoren knew, that's why he kept him in chains. If the Lorathi was a wizard, Rorge and Biter could be demons he called up from some hell, not men at all.

cpg2016 · June 29, 2017

2 hours ago, LynnS said:

It seems to me that the faceless men are not bound by one identity at a time; but emulate the many-faced god by concealing more than one identity; discarding faces when their time is done in exchange for one on hand or a new face that they collect.. We see this with the taking Pate's face and identity. Perhaps with this sort of blade:

This is exactly right. That is why they need to be "no one", because No One can take on Anyone's identity.

It should be noted, though, that FM don't take on personalities. They assume a face and a name and not much more, it seems, because their magical powers don't make them omniscient plot ninjas. They're skilled actors and assassins. But Syrio is living as Syrio for years, presumably, and as a former First Sword of Braavos has a lifetime of skills that a FM can't just magically pick up along with a face.

2 hours ago, LynnS said:

The notion that Syrio is a faceless man came up several years ago and we don't know what actually happened to him after Arya leaves him. He may well have been taken prisoner or given himself up to be placed in the Black Cells with the three promised to the Watch. One of whom he replaced causing Rorge and Biter to fear him...

But this makes absolutely no narrative sense! Why is he going to prison just to make it into the Watch's recruit caravan? Why not just volunteer? It's not unheard of for the Watch to receive volunteers, and he wouldn't have to risk burning to death in that case.

2 hours ago, LynnS said:

The Faceless Men are not just assassins; they collect information with eyes to see and ears to hear. It would be a simple thing for Syrio to present himself to Ned and offer his services and credentials of First Sword of the Sealord of Braavos. Syrio may have known about the prisoners Ned gave over to the Watch. What a convenient way to escape.

No, it isn't. He's got to have credentials or Ned isn't trusting him with his daughter. And furthmore, and again I cannot stress this enough, Syrio Forel is the real deal! He knows how to use a sword; he defeats several Lannister guardsmen with a wooden sword, which is highly impressive. We have no indication that the FM are particularly skilled swordsmen, and given the years of training it takes, I doubt they are. Unless your position is that Syrio/Jaqen was embedded into the Sealord's retinue decades previously, all so he might be called on to teach the yet-unborn Arya, who would have to be a tomboy with a sword, whose father has to allow her to defy social norms, and who has to be named Hand (Ned, that is). All of these are highly improbable.

2 hours ago, LynnS said:

What was it that Jaqen did to cause Yoren to keep him in chains? I suspect an identity switch and dead body without a face in the Black Cells. Syrio is dead.

What did Rorge and Biter do? They committed horrific crimes. Which is why they were in the Black Cells. If Jaqen was caught killing someone, he'd be thrown in there too.

And he sounds similar to Syrio becauise they are both Braavosi. Of course they have the same accent, despite the fact that Jaqen wears the face of a Lorathi.

And if Yoren knew Jaqen had been killing people and switching faces with them, don't you think that would be something worthy of mentioning?

Syrio is dead. That is all there is to it. There is no evidence other than stupid circumstantial evidence to say he's alive. The same evidence could say that Arthur Dayne was a Faceless Man and was impersonating Ned Stark all these years, so Arya could be born and brought to Kings Landing to be trained by Jaqen-as-Syrio.

There is no narrative or thematic reason for Syrio to be Jaqen, and a TON of reasons for him not to. Syrio is Arya's first mentor, the one who teaches her to keep her eyes open and see people as they are. He's why she survives. Jaqen is there to bring her into a totally different world, and the Faceless Men in general teach her to have agency and how to deceive others. Having Jaqen be Syrio adds nothing to the story; it's a stupid "gotcha!" moment of the type GRRM doesn't do. Again, if this constitutes "evidence" for Jaqen being Syrio, then any character who has died who we haven't literally seen their body rotting, can be a Faceless Man. Maybe Robb Stark isn't dead. Whose to say? We never saw his body with his head, it was probably a Faceless Man and they dressed up fake-Robb in Robb's armor and now he's wandering around doing stuff. See how stupid that is? It is equally valid.

LynnS · June 30, 2017

11 hours ago, cpg2016 said:

Having Jaqen be Syrio adds nothing to the story; it's a stupid "gotcha!" moment of the type GRRM doesn't do.

Let's dispense with the need to characterize things you don't agree with as 'stupid'. We don't know what skills are learned by assassins other than they are so deadly they are feared by all. It doesn't make any sense to me that they wouldn't be adept in all forms of martial arts and perhaps some are more specialized than others. The FM work primarily in the shadows, so it seems unlikely to me that Jaqen would be 'caught' doing anything unless he wanted to be caught. He'd be useless as a FM otherwise, a liability to the brotherhood to be so careless.

Arya is one of the 'prentice boys' of Old Nan's story along with Jon and Bran. The many faced god has to bring her under his influence using the faceless men. It isn't happenstance that Jaqen is in the Black Cells waiting transport with Yoren or that he crosses paths with Arya. He's probably capable of escaping his chains and his prison anytime. He is observing and testing Arya. Later manipulating her with the three deaths that are owed to his god.

If you want to discuss this further, fine. Less sarcasm next time.

cpg2016 · June 30, 2017

3 hours ago, LynnS said:

Let's dispense with the need to characterize things you don't agree with as 'stupid'. We don't know what skills are learned by assassins other than they are so deadly they are feared by all. It doesn't make any sense to me that they wouldn't be adept in all forms of martial arts and perhaps some are more specialized than others. The FM work primarily in the shadows, so it seems unlikely to me that Jaqen would be 'caught' doing anything unless he wanted to be caught. He'd be useless as a FM otherwise, a liability to the brotherhood to be so careless.

We actually have a very good idea of the skills that are learned by Faceless Men. We see what Arya is learning. How to train her senses, to rely on senses other than sight. The religious aspect of revering the dead. How to kill without being noticed. The Faceless Men, like almost every other group of assassins that ever existed, are about stealth, not swordplay. Arya's missions aren't about swashbuckling her way through guards, it's about being silent and unnoticeable and killing through deception. She is with a group of mummers, and not bravos, because learning to impersonate is more important than learning to fight. As long as she gets close enough, all she needs is a dagger. Excellent swordsmen are remembered, are known - Faceless Men want to disappear once the job is done.

And there is a massive difference between "adept" and "one of the finest swordsmen in the world" which is what Syrio is. And FM don't work in the shadows, they work in the open- it's just that because they can shed faces, they don't get caught. Maybe Jaqen got caught sneaking in somewhere he shouldn't have. Maybe he accidentally took the face of a known criminal. Who knows. The point is, we aren't told because it isn't important. If it was important we knew where he came from, we'd have some information. Just like the mystery of Jon's parentage is strewn with contradicting stories, so we know something's fishy. Like the competing stories about Robert Arryn's fostering are meant to further tip us off that there are competing factions in the capital vying for influence. We don't know if Jaqen is careless, and we don't know how efficient the FM really are - we assume pretty damn efficient, but to imply that anyone who makes a mistake is a liability is to lose sight of the fact that for all their powers and magic, the FM are still men and women.

3 hours ago, LynnS said:

It isn't happenstance that Jaqen is in the Black Cells waiting transport with Yoren or that he crosses paths with Arya. He's probably capable of escaping his chains and his prison anytime. He is observing and testing Arya. Later manipulating her with the three deaths that are owed to his god.

Well is Jaqen in the black cells to wait for Arya, or is he Syrio? Those are two different theories, though, both bad in their own way.

First off, Jaqen is in the Black Cells before the coup against Ned, which means he can't possibly have foreknowledge that Arya will be on the run with Yoren. So if he's been there all along, it can't be to get close to Arya... and why would they know anything about Arya Stark anyway? And if he was Syrio all along, then why put himself into the Black Cells after supposedly escaping Meryn Trant? Why not run into the city, change faces, and then join the Nights Watch voluntarily (which is comparatively rare, but happens)? Everything about this theory is so damn contrived; it requires the Faceless Men to be near-omniscient characters who can both predict the future AND be superhuman ninjas in a way that none of GRRMs characters are.

And again, we have no evidence the Faceless Men are skilled at anything but deception. We have no evidence of a single one being a good swordfighter. No evidence they're good at getting out of cells. Some of them may well be... but Syrio spent a lifetime as a bravo, which is why he was among the best water dancers in Braavos. And yes, it is hypothetically possible that Jaqen is impersonating him (despite the nonsense of him then voluntarily imprisoning himself, because he knows there will be a fire and knows Arya will save him), but it isn't possible that he can also mimic Syrio's great skill with a sword.

3 hours ago, LynnS said:

If you want to discuss this further, fine. Less sarcasm next time.

It wasn't scarcasm. "Gotcha!" moments are stupid. It's why M. Night Shyamalan is considered a joke of a director now, because his twists are unrelated to what comes before and impossible to anticipate, and thus serves no purpose except to play a silly game with viewers. This is the same. Every reveal, every secret parentage theory that is likely to occur is telegraphed by Martin in so many ways, and not just by circumstance as with Syrio=Jaqen. Moreover, those other theories (fAegon or R+L=J) have narrative and thematic resonance; they are in there to make a point, or undermine a trope. Syrio has a purpose; he's a mentor figure, he's Obi Wan, the voice Arya hears in her head in moments of crisis or doubt or tension. Him being alive doesn't further that; it undercuts it. Jaqen has a purpose; he's a great way to get her out of Harrenhal, but he's also the one who starts her journey towards learning the skills which will allow her to take vengeance on the people who've wronged her. Arya's whole story as a Faceless Man is about reclaiming her identity. She hasn't been Arya Stark since before her father's execution, and it's only her journey into being No One that will make her reclaim her name and her family and legacy. Jaqen being Syrio does nothing to add to that, it just distracts from one of our protagonists stories.

LiveFirstDieLater · June 30, 2017

20 hours ago, cpg2016 said:

Well there is strong evidence to say that the FM killed Balon. And Jaqen clearly has a mission to complete in Oldtown. So... there are many reasons for him to be in Kings Landing, which is the closest port of call from Braavos. Why risk a long trip by sea, which is extremely dangerous, when he can travel overland?

Which is NOT to say that a Faceless Man never fails. The point is that they'll keep trying til they get their victim.

Because an explanation isn't germane to the story. We don't know why Rorge or Biter were in there, either. What Jaqen was doing is unimportant to his story.

Look, GRRM is obviously a good writer. So when you make up a crazy theory, ask yourself what purpose it serves narratively. Just about every other plotline furthers a point he's trying to make. This one does nothing, and he's not a "gotcha!" kind of author. Jon's identity is a thematic refutation of the "born to be a hero" storyline. Yes, he's a head of the dragon, but he doesn't know it - he earns his heroism through his actions, not because he has prophetic plot armor (as Rhaegar believed).

Why risk a long trip by sea? That's your explanation for why a faceless man is in the Black cells in Kings Landing when on his way to kill Balon a continent and sea away on an island? I just want to make sure I'm understanding that right... because honestly either I'm missing something or I'm not sure you understand how explanations work.

Im not saying it's impossible for Faceless men to fail, I'm just saying there is no evidence, nor even a story about it ever happening. Men are willing to pay ridiculous prices to hire them for this reason. A good parallel (but of course not perfect) would be the Golden Company, their reputation is they never break their contract, but of course we see they do, but when they do there is a good explanation. If they had a reputation for keeping their word and we saw them just breaking contracts with no explanation at all it would be a huge red flag.

We actually do know why Rorge and Bitter were there... Rorge ran a fighting pit in kings landing and Biter was an orphan he found/raised. But no info on why Jaquen was there...

Again you can say this does nothing, but I strongly disagree. I believe it is all a part of the reason for Arya finally rejecting her place among the Faceless Men. Also, I believe the real Syrio likely died well before we ever meet him, along with the old sea lord of Braavos who signed Viserys's marriage pact and supposedly housed Dany in the House with the Red Door. Getting to the bottom of these tangled Braavos plot lines needs to happen, and spoiler if you haven't read WoW chapters but I think Arya will meet other Forels.

In addition, to say GRRM isn't a "gotcha" writer is insane... are we reading the same series? He's cleverer than most, but let's not pretend he doesn't intentionally set up surprises. Nor do I think there is nothing pointing to this, and would clearly serve a purpose. But whatever, I think we just have drastically different understandings of literature and what this story is about.

Lets take Mance's death/glamor/reappearance as a comparison. Not at all gotcha? Seeing someone die only to find out later it's not really them. If you wanted to point to Mel's presence as a telltail, I'd just point to Varys.

Not to get to sidetracked, but I had to address this nonsense. Jon is a pretty classic hero characterization, he even has a pet and a special sword. His secret parentage and willingness to break the letter of the law to preserve the greater good aren't anything new. I love the series but let's not pretend Jon is anything short of a classic hidden prince. His birth and training set him up as the best incoming swordsman in his class, he's chosen by Mormont because of his parentage, and being son of Ned Stark is repeatedly brought up by Brothers, Free Folk, and even Stannis. He is very much like the Royce we see in the prologue early on, vain and prideful. Of course he grows, but his plotline isn't something innovative.

Anyway, the point remains that of course I can't provide you with proof, only circumstantial evidence and existing plot holes. If you disagree, that's cool, but try and provide logical arguements instead of your "literary analysis".

LiveFirstDieLater · June 30, 2017

17 hours ago, cpg2016 said:

It should be noted, though, that FM don't take on personalities. They assume a face and a name and not much more, it seems, because their magical powers don't make them omniscient plot ninjas. They're skilled actors and assassins. But Syrio is living as Syrio for years, presumably, and as a former First Sword of Braavos has a lifetime of skills that a FM can't just magically pick up along with a face.

No, it isn't. He's got to have credentials or Ned isn't trusting him with his daughter. And furthmore, and again I cannot stress this enough, Syrio Forel is the real deal! He knows how to use a sword; he defeats several Lannister guardsmen with a wooden sword, which is highly impressive. We have no indication that the FM are particularly skilled swordsmen, and given the years of training it takes, I doubt they are. Unless your position is that Syrio/Jaqen was embedded into the Sealord's retinue decades previously, all so he might be called on to teach the yet-unborn Arya, who would have to be a tomboy with a sword, whose father has to allow her to defy social norms, and who has to be named Hand (Ned, that is). All of these are highly improbable.

Ok so I'm gonna just skip your rambling take on what the plot is supposed to be, but there are huge issues with the rest too.

FM do take on personalities... that's what Arya is learning, how to pretend to be someone else... part of acting. Not sure how you missed this.

There is no reason to believe Syrio has been Syrio for years. Nobody recognizes him, he's far from home, and we are only told by Ned he came well recommended. As I've said, Varys providing this recommendation would make a lot of sense. There is no reason to believe credentials exist, let alone are required, to tutor a girl in fencing.

Besides Jaquen, we never see another Faceless man fighting with a sword, so I don't know what you are basing your opinion of their fighting skill on.

Not to mention you are arguing that Syrio is too good a swordsman to be a faceless man, but not a good enough swordsman to pull of what we see Bron (a noname sellsword) do by defeating a man in armor (in fact Syrio just needs to escape). This is a massive contradiction I do not understand.

Quote

And he sounds similar to Syrio becauise they are both Braavosi. Of course they have the same accent, despite the fact that Jaqen wears the face of a Lorathi.

What?!?!?

So are you saying Pate now sounds Braavosi because the Faceless man desguised as him likely trained in Braavos? Gonna be tough to pass off no?

Are you saying Arya will sound Braavosi because of her time in the House of White and Black? There's no reason to think all Faceless men are Braavosi or that Faceless men can't change their accents/speech patterns in mundane ways. You don't even need magic for that.

Isnt it more likely that Arya is just noticing that the change in voice from Syrio to Jaquen isn't perfect... because they are in fact the same guy?

Interestigly it is Varys's voice which alerts Ned to the fact that it's him disguised as Rugen in the Black Cells.

cpg2016 · June 30, 2017

24 minutes ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

Why risk a long trip by sea? That's your explanation for why a faceless man is in the Black cells in Kings Landing when on his way to kill Balon a continent and sea away on an island? I just want to make sure I'm understanding that right... because honestly either I'm missing something or I'm not sure you understand how explanations work.

It is one possible explanation. Take any possible reason a person could be in jail, and those are my reasons. In fact, maybe he succeeded in a mission of killing someone, and was caught in the aftermath. Here's the thing - you are building/defending a theory. You need to have a convincing explanation at each step. I can't prove a negative. I can't say "Syrio isn't Jaqen" the same as you can't say Penny isn't Tysha. If the only standard is "what is hypothetically possible, given that we have unreliable narrators AND magic in the world" then just about anyone can be anyone. Maybe Ned Stark is still alive? After all, we know it is possible that deaths can be faked, like Mance's. Just because we don't KNOW there is a priest of R'hllor in Kings Landing at the time doesn't mean it isn't possible. See how silly every argument becomes?

So again, I can come up with reasons Jaqen might be in the Black Cells til I'm blue in the face. They should be obvious; he committed a crime worthy of being put there, got caught, and voila! there he is.

29 minutes ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

Im not saying it's impossible for Faceless men to fail, I'm just saying there is no evidence, nor even a story about it ever happening. Men are willing to pay ridiculous prices to hire them for this reason. A good parallel (but of course not perfect) would be the Golden Company, their reputation is they never break their contract, but of course we see they do, but when they do there is a good explanation. If they had a reputation for keeping their word and we saw them just breaking contracts with no explanation at all it would be a huge red flag.

And how would we ever get that story? No one knows who they are! Hence the "faceless" aspect. And it's not like the organization as a whole is going to trumpet failures. All we know is the Faceless MEN always succeed. We have no idea how many might have died failing until one succeeded in a mission. Look at the world GRRM has created - it destroys every single bit of his world if he has an organization of insane magical uber-ninjas, who can play 11th dimensional chess and predict events years out into the future. He wrote the whole series to undermine that trope!

32 minutes ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

I believe it is all a part of the reason for Arya finally rejecting her place among the Faceless Men. Also, I believe the real Syrio likely died well before we ever meet him

Well he would have to, or Jaqen couldn't take his place. It also doesn't fit the MO of the Faceless Men. Syrio was and presumably still is an incredibly important, recognizable Braavosi. To convincingly impersonate him would be extremely difficult. How does Jaqen explain how he lost all his skills and now needs years to retrain? Why is he spending years on a job that doesn't require it? And how does Jaqen being Syrio lead Arya to reject her place among the Faceless Men? It means nothing to the story, as Arya is already losing her identity before Syrio's death, and the whole arc of her time with the Faceless Men is about remembering who she is and where she comes from.

34 minutes ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

In addition, to say GRRM isn't a "gotcha" writer is insane... are we reading the same series? He's cleverer than most, but let's not pretend he doesn't intentionally set up surprises. Nor do I think there is nothing pointing to this, and would clearly serve a purpose. But whatever, I think we just have drastically different understandings of literature and what this story is about.

OK. Name one surprise that wasn't telegraphed well in advance. I can wait. "Setting up" a surprise is different than "springing" a surprise, a nuance you don't seem to get. You haven't mentioned anything that points to this; all you've said are reasons why it's not impossible that Syrio is Jaqen. Again, explain these two fundamental plot hole points before we get to the thematic stuff:

- Why is Jaqen in the Black Cells, if he's Syrio. Your argument is he escapes Meryn Trant, heads straight for the dungeons, kills a prisoner, and takes his place. Why? So he can join the Watch? Why not, you know... just join? Nothing is stopping him from joining Yoren on his own, with a new face. Unless your position is he knows they'll be attacked, and knows his cart will light on fire, and knows Arya will be alive and close enough to save him. Mind you, he doesn't even know Arya is WITH Yoren when he replaces Jaqen in the Black Cells

- Why does he care about Arya so much in the first place? The Faceless Men are assassins, full stop. There is a weird death cult vibe too, but Arya displays none of these traits prior to leaving Winterfell. So what, exactly, is he doing, spending months and presumably years masquerading as Syrio, learning to fight and impersonate the former first sword of Braavos?

The simple explanation is that he got caught doing something wrong on a mission and improvised. Because improvisation is the one thing we KNOW the Faceless Men are trained in.

Gotta run but will address all the other points in a bit

LynnS · June 30, 2017

36 minutes ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

In addition, to say GRRM isn't a "gotcha" writer is insane... are we reading the same series? He's cleverer than most, but let's not pretend he doesn't intentionally set up surprises. Nor do I think there is nothing pointing to this, and would clearly serve a purpose. But whatever, I think we just have drastically different understandings of literature and what this story is about.

There will be plenty of gotcha reveals in this story. We've been told on several occasions that Martin doesn't do the obvious and that he delights in confounding his readers.

I think it's likely that Syrio is the first of several FM instructors. I'm not sure that Varys is even required. All Syrio has to do is present himself to Ned for service, as a swordmaster with some credentials, to make it so. We shouldn't downplay their own information network as demonstrated with Arya in Braavos, when she must observe and pass on three tidbits of information daily.

So it's probable that Syrio knows that Ned has promised Yoren men from the black cells, a likely place for him to end up after his fight since he hasn't killed anyone. And a clever way for a FM to change identities and take the place of one of three. I don't even think it's necessary for him to take the identity of another that he kills. He could easily have Jaqen's face on hand... a handsome face... something that might appeal to Arya in constrast with Biter and Rorge. Is the jailer going to care about a dead body in the black cells, so long as he has the promised three? Would a FM have any difficulty operating in the darkness of the Black Cells. Isn't that part of their training?

I don't see the FM giving up someone as important as Arya so easily. Having Syrio show up again as her swordmaster would compromise Arya's escape and her own disguise. Syrio needs a new face.

LiveFirstDieLater · June 30, 2017

49 minutes ago, cpg2016 said:

It is one possible explanation. Take any possible reason a person could be in jail, and those are my reasons. In fact, maybe he succeeded in a mission of killing someone, and was caught in the aftermath. Here's the thing - you are building/defending a theory. You need to have a convincing explanation at each step. I can't prove a negative. I can't say "Syrio isn't Jaqen" the same as you can't say Penny isn't Tysha. If the only standard is "what is hypothetically possible, given that we have unreliable narrators AND magic in the world" then just about anyone can be anyone. Maybe Ned Stark is still alive? After all, we know it is possible that deaths can be faked, like Mance's. Just because we don't KNOW there is a priest of R'hllor in Kings Landing at the time doesn't mean it isn't possible. See how silly every argument becomes?

So again, I can come up with reasons Jaqen might be in the Black Cells til I'm blue in the face. They should be obvious; he committed a crime worthy of being put there, got caught, and voila! there he is.

Really man you need a better arguement. Yes anyone can be anyone and you can't prove a negative. Doesn't make every theory the same...

Ok, everyone isn't going to someone else, but some people will be in disguise. We've seen it.

So guessing that there is probably a faceless man disguise surprise waiting for us isn't prescient.

Circumstantial evidence is all there is to go on... however, saying that characters A, who disappears at the same time as character B appears, and takes up a similar role in relation to our PoV, have voices remarked on by the PoV to be reminiscent of one another, seem to be from the same place, and then shows the ability to change his face in front of our PoV who is going to learn how to disguise herself isn't exactly pulling it out of thin air.

You can make up reasons for Jaquen being in the Black Cells all you want but it doesn't put them in the series... there is still a gaping plot hole here.

We are being asked to question what the goal of this far flung ancient order of face changing killers, who never fail, is, and at the same time we find one in prison with no explanation.

It's like saying that Benjen probably has no role to play. He probably just volunteered for the Nights watch for whatever reason you decide to make up. Nothing interesting or plot relevant because you don't see how it makes sense thematically. Really think there is no mystery there? And then he probably just died ranging never to be relevant again, after all why bother... do you see the issue with this lack of logic and perspective?

cpg2016 · July 5, 2017

On 6/30/2017 at 1:28 PM, LiveFirstDieLater said:

Really man you need a better arguement. Yes anyone can be anyone and you can't prove a negative. Doesn't make every theory the same...

Ok, everyone isn't going to someone else, but some people will be in disguise. We've seen it.

Right. Some people have been in disguise - people who have a reason to be in disguise. Why is a Faceless Man impersonating Syrio Forel and training Arya? We have zero evidence that FM as good with a sword, and we KNOW Syrio is very good with one. Excellent, in fact. Faceless Men do one thing - they assassinate people. It's their only job. So why is one of them taking weeks if not months of their extremely valuable time on some random side-quest?

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So guessing that there is probably a faceless man disguise surprise waiting for us isn't prescient.

Right. We already KNOW there was a Faceless Man waiting in disguise, and his name was Jaqen H'Ghar. We've had this moment - twice, actually, because he's still running around as th Alchemist (and now, Pate).

On 6/30/2017 at 1:28 PM, LiveFirstDieLater said:

Circumstantial evidence is all there is to go on... however, saying that characters A, who disappears at the same time as character B appears, and takes up a similar role in relation to our PoV, have voices remarked on by the PoV to be reminiscent of one another, seem to be from the same place, and then shows the ability to change his face in front of our PoV who is going to learn how to disguise herself isn't exactly pulling it out of thin air.

Syrio is Braavosi. Jaqen the FM (not his identity but the actual original person) is likely to be Braavosi.

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You can make up reasons for Jaquen being in the Black Cells all you want but it doesn't put them in the series... there is still a gaping plot hole here.

It is only a plot hole if you presuppose that Syrio is Jaqen. It isn't important to the story to know why a Faceless Man was in prison. It adds literally nothing, and the story is already huge. For all we know it was in a draft and an editor said, "the five pages of backstory on why Jaqen was imprisoned dd nothing". This is my point - I don't need a reason for Jaqen to be there. He's an assassin - maybe he got caught killing someone. He's there because the story requires him to be there, just the same as we don't need to know where Gerion Lannister ended up, only that he went missing. We don't need to know why Jeor Mormont abandoned his extremely important social position (head of a principal House of the North) to give it to Jorah, an extremely rare event which IIRC we never see or hear of happening elsewhere. These aren't plot holes because they don't bear on the story. Similarly, Jaqen being in the Black Cells is only a plot hole if he has a surprise identity.

On 6/30/2017 at 1:28 PM, LiveFirstDieLater said:

We are being asked to question what the goal of this far flung ancient order of face changing killers, who never fail, is, and at the same time we find one in prison with no explanation.

Whoa whoa whoa. We are never told that a Faceless Man never fails, only that the order as a whole always fulfills it's contracts. Which is a VERY different statement. And by the way, this is exactly where all of your evidence breaks down. We know that Jaqen's order are either to kill Balon Greyjoy (almost certainly FM paid by Euron) or to break into the Citadel to kill someone or steal something), because that is what he does after being freed. So how, exactly, does it benefit him to be put into the Black Cells and sent to the Watch. It's just stupid. If he wants to join the caravan to the Wall, all he has to do is enlist! Why go through this massive Rube Goldberg scheme of spending months ignoring his job and training Arya, then deliberately taking a big risk by sneaking himself into the prison, killing the original Jaqen, somehow sneaking the body out (and why is Varys-as-Rugen helping?), and then being imprisoned in a cart from which he cannot escape without Arya's help? He isn't omniscient and it is absurd to think he's able to predict that far ahead. And if all of that is his goal, then why does he immediately abandon the Night's Watch and go to Harrenhal? What was the point of joining up in the first place? If it was all to get Arya on the path to assassin-hood, then why does he immediately abandon her in the middle of a war zone? He knows who she is and how valuable of a prize she'd be. He has a different task in Westeros; he helps Arya because she helps him and the FM are quasi-religious to begin with, and also because he sees her potential as a recruit.

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It's like saying that Benjen probably has no role to play. He probably just volunteered for the Nights watch for whatever reason you decide to make up. Nothing interesting or plot relevant because you don't see how it makes sense thematically.

Unfortunately for every crackpot theorist out there, there is a very good reason Benjen joins the Watch. He's a supernumerary son. Once Ned has trueborn children of his own, Benjen's position becomes extremely iffy. He can't inherit himself except in very rare circumstances (like Aegon V did), and has no position or incomes save what Ned gives him. Which might have been substantial, for all we know, but the Watch is a place of honor for younger sons in the North to serve, we're told. We see Waymar Royve join for this very reason; he is a younger son with no hope of inheritance and wants a position where he can rise. For all that the Night's Watch is a meritocracy in theory, in practice it's leadership is overwhelmingly of noble or at least knightly stock. Just as Benjen could have been assured a fast rise as a result of his heritage and training, Waymar can also expect to rise to a position of honor in normal times. This is explained, very clearly, in-text.

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And then he probably just died ranging never to be relevant again, after all why bother... do you see the issue with this lack of logic and perspective?

Benjen will absolutely be relevant again, no question about it. But here is the difference; we know that mystery is yet to come. We haven't had the reveal. Where Benjen is, is a highly relevant and commented on plot point, since we know Mance didn't get him (or we'd have heard) and we know he's still North of the Wall. Hence the Benjen-as-Coldhands theory.

With Jaqen and Syrio, we had their moments. Syrio is the mentor who dies before the training is complete. He's Obi-Wan to Arya's Luke. He's the voice she hears at critical moments, the person who gave her that bare minimum of training necessary to go out into the world and survive and succeed against the odds. Jaqen starts her down a different path. If Jaqen is Syrio, why doesn't he say something? Why is he keeping it a secret? That's a plot hole; something that should be explained and isn't. If Syrio is Jaqen, it just doesn't make sense that it wouldn't come up in conversation between them. What the hell is the motivation otherwise?

Benjen hasn't had his moment, not really. Sure, he's the example that influences Jon to join the Watch, but he's got about 2 appearances in the series as opposed to multiple chapters for Syrio and Jaqen. And if he never shows up again? That isn't crazy either.

The problem with your theory is that aside from the accent, none of your "circumstantial evidence" points towards Syrio. Dozens of other characters disappear at approximately when the same time Syrio does. So again, you have to adequately answer the following questions:

- Why is Jaqen masquerading as Syrio for months? What is his mission?

- Whatever that reason is, why does he immediately abandon it to join the NW caravan?

- If his mission requires him to be part of the NW caravan, why in the world does he choose to be part of that caravan as a prisoner, instead of just taking a new face and joining up voluntarily (you know... so he can leave if he wants)?

- If his mission is related to Arya, as you must be assuming, then why does he immediately abandon it once free of his obligation to her and head off into the wild blue yonder?

- Relatedly, if his mission isn't related to Arya, then circle back to the beginning - why is he wasting time as Syrio?

As far as I can tell, there is no fact pattern that satisfies all of those questions, and a break in the logic means your theory isn't sound. No one, not one person, has managed to give a story, let alone a compelling story, as to why those events happen in those orders. By contrast:

Jaqen H'Ghar is arrested and imprisoned in kings Landing after being caught in a crime; either a previous assassination mission, caught standing over the body of the original Jaqen (whose face he steals), or in some other way, because FM aren't omniscient gods and we have no evidence to show they can't make a mistake or be caught out. Syrio is a totally separate person. Jaqen is in the Night's Watch caravan because he was a prisoner and we know that's normal; once he gets free, he realizes he's a lone stranger and in the middle of an active war zone to boot, so he assumes the identity of a Lannister soldier and joins up for safety and to repay his debt to Arya (or rather, Arya's debt to the Many Faced God). As we know, FM have a religious attitude towards death and killing. After he's done helping Arya, he gives her some advice as a potential recruit and goes on his merry way to fulfill his original mission.

Name me one plot hole in that story. One reason any of that doesn't make logical narrative sense.

LiveFirstDieLater · July 5, 2017

2 hours ago, cpg2016 said:

Why is a Faceless Man impersonating Syrio Forel and training Arya?

This seems to be the fundamental thing I'm failing to communicate. A faceless man would disguise himself as Syrio to get close to Ned, it has nothing to do with Arya.

We have zero evidence that FM as good with a sword, and we KNOW Syrio is very good with one.

But not as good as Bron the Sellsword... Again, we see an example of how an armored man can be defeated, and Syrio didn't kill Trant. He's already downed a handful of guards and could easily pick up a sword. I can't understand how he could be so talented and still lose...

Excellent, in fact. Faceless Men do one thing - they assassinate people. It's their only job. So why is one of them taking weeks if not months of their extremely valuable time on some random side-quest?

One foot in front of another, maybe not today or tomorrow but a man will get there... he's on his way to do his job, first Ned then Balon, Arya at Harrenhall was the "side-quest". But I don't know why you think the Faceless Men are "only" assasins, it seems clear to me they have their own agenda.

Syrio is Braavosi. Jaqen the FM (not his identity but the actual original person) is likely to be Braavosi.

Why do you suspect he's Braavosi? Do we have a reason to suspect FM recruits are all, or even predominantly Braavosi? And why don't all Braavosi's voices remind Arya of Syrio then, instead of just Jaquen and the kindly man?

Whoa whoa whoa. We are never told that a Faceless Man never fails, only that the order as a whole always fulfills it's contracts.

That's what I wrote... The Faceless Men never fail. At least that's he rep.

It still begs the question, why is one in prison?

Which is a VERY different statement. And by the way, this is exactly where all of your evidence breaks down. We know that Jaqen's order are either to kill Balon Greyjoy (almost certainly FM paid by Euron) or to break into the Citadel to kill someone or steal something), because that is what he does after being freed.

We don't know what his orders are, or the reasons why... we only speculate that it's probably more likely there is one Faceless Man responsible for Balon and Pate than there being a bunch of Faceless Men roving around Westeros. This does nothing to reveal why he was in the Black Cells however, except that if we assume it's all the same guy, then whatever objective he was there to fulfill was likely completed if he's proceeding to move onto Balon.

So how, exactly, does it benefit him to be put into the Black Cells and sent to the Watch. It's just stupid. If he wants to join the caravan to the Wall, all he has to do is enlist! Why go through this massive Rube Goldberg scheme of spending months ignoring his job and training Arya, then deliberately taking a big risk by sneaking himself into the prison, killing the original Jaqen, somehow sneaking the body out (and why is Varys-as-Rugen helping?), and then being imprisoned in a cart from which he cannot escape without Arya's help? He isn't omniscient and it is absurd to think he's able to predict that far ahead. And if all of that is his goal, then why does he immediately abandon the Night's Watch and go to Harrenhal? What was the point of joining up in the first place? If it was all to get Arya on the path to assassin-hood, then why does he immediately abandon her in the middle of a war zone? He knows who she is and how valuable of a prize she'd be. He has a different task in Westeros; he helps Arya because she helps him and the FM are quasi-religious to begin with, and also because he sees her potential as a recruit.

Ok, slow down for a second... I don't think teaching Arya was some huge scheme to end up in the Black Cells. Maybe I need to walk the events as I imagine them again... I'll try at the bottom.

Unfortunately for every crackpot theorist out there, there is a very good reason Benjen joins the Watch. He's a supernumerary son. Once Ned has trueborn children of his own, Benjen's position becomes extremely iffy. He can't inherit himself except in very rare circumstances (like Aegon V did), and has no position or incomes save what Ned gives him. Which might have been substantial, for all we know, but the Watch is a place of honor for younger sons in the North to serve, we're told. We see Waymar Royve join for this very reason; he is a younger son with no hope of inheritance and wants a position where he can rise. For all that the Night's Watch is a meritocracy in theory, in practice it's leadership is overwhelmingly of noble or at least knightly stock. Just as Benjen could have been assured a fast rise as a result of his heritage and training, Waymar can also expect to rise to a position of honor in normal times. This is explained, very clearly, in-text.

So just to be clear, you think Benjen joined the watch after Bran was born (giving Ned an heir (Rob) and a spare(Bran)? I've never even heard this suggested, and certainly don't think it's explained in the text. Being 4th son of the Royce's isn't the same as being 3rd Stark in line to inherit the North. Not to mention, Jon doesn't seem to expect Bran to join once Rob has kids... and this is while talking to Benjen about the NW:

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A Game of Thrones - Jon I

"I forget nothing," Jon boasted. The wine was making him bold. He tried to sit very straight, to make himself seem taller. "I want to serve in the Night's Watch, Uncle."

He had thought on it long and hard, lying abed at night while his brothers slept around him. Robb would someday inherit Winterfell, would command great armies as the Warden of the North. Bran and Rickon would be Robb's bannermen and rule holdfasts in his name. His sisters Arya and Sansa would marry the heirs of other great houses and go south as mistress of castles of their own. But what place could a bastard hope to earn?

"You don't know what you're asking, Jon. The Night's Watch is a sworn brotherhood. We have no families. None of us will ever father sons. Our wife is duty. Our mistress is honbour."

I think we disagree about what is and isn't a mystery... and I don't want to get to far down the Benjen hole...

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Benjen will absolutely be relevant again, no question about it. But here is the difference; we know that mystery is yet to come. We haven't had the reveal. Where Benjen is, is a highly relevant and commented on plot point, since we know Mance didn't get him (or we'd have heard) and we know he's still North of the Wall. Hence the Benjen-as-Coldhands theory.

With Jaqen and Syrio, we had their moments. Syrio is the mentor who dies before the training is complete. He's Obi-Wan to Arya's Luke. He's the voice she hears at critical moments, the person who gave her that bare minimum of training necessary to go out into the world and survive and succeed against the odds. Jaqen starts her down a different path. If Jaqen is Syrio, why doesn't he say something? Why is he keeping it a secret? That's a plot hole; something that should be explained and isn't. If Syrio is Jaqen, it just doesn't make sense that it wouldn't come up in conversation between them. What the hell is the motivation otherwise?

I love the Syrio/Obi-Wan analogy, I've used it myself... of course in Star Wars Obi-Wan allows himself to be killed, and then is still an ever watching mentor who speaks to Luke from time to time... Here we have a FM allowing Syrio to die in much the same way as Obi-Wan. This isn't to say the FM died of course, it's just like Jaquen "dying" later on, it's the identity that dies. After all, the FM wasn't really Jaquen, or Syrio.

The problem with your theory is that aside from the accent, none of your "circumstantial evidence" points towards Syrio. Dozens of other characters disappear at approximately when the same time Syrio does. So again, you have to adequately answer the following questions:

- Why is Jaqen masquerading as Syrio for months? What is his mission?

To kill Ned

- Whatever that reason is, why does he immediately abandon it to join the NW caravan?

He doesn't abandon it, Syrio disappears during the coup when Ned is imprissoned. Varys visits Ned, tells him he's a dead man, and convinces him to take the black for his daughter's sake. Jaquen is in the Black Cells waiting to go North with Yoren and Ned. Ned is UNEXPECTEDLY beheaded. Jaquen goes north with Yoren until freed by Arya. There wasn't supposed to be a war going on, the execution through off the whole plan.

- If his mission requires him to be part of the NW caravan, why in the world does he choose to be part of that caravan as a prisoner, instead of just taking a new face and joining up voluntarily (you know... so he can leave if he wants)?

I'm suggesting Varys facilitated the FM's entry to the Black Cells. At this point Yoren already was ready to leave and was asked to wait for Ned. Joining as Jaquen got him out of a locked down Red Keep, and positioned him to be near where Ned was supposed to be. Added bonus, Yoren was heading in the same general direction as Balon. But the point remains that by the time of the coup it appears Yoren had already gathered his party. At the end of the day, I can't explain why things didn't happen some other way...

- If his mission is related to Arya, as you must be assuming, then why does he immediately abandon it once free of his obligation to her and head off into the wild blue yonder?

I do not assume this...

- Relatedly, if his mission isn't related to Arya, then circle back to the beginning - why is he wasting time as Syrio?

To get close to Ned.

As far as I can tell, there is no fact pattern that satisfies all of those questions, and a break in the logic means your theory isn't sound. No one, not one person, has managed to give a story, let alone a compelling story, as to why those events happen in those orders. By contrast:

Jaqen H'Ghar is arrested and imprisoned in kings Landing after being caught in a crime; either a previous assassination mission, caught standing over the body of the original Jaqen (whose face he steals), or in some other way, because FM aren't omniscient gods and we have no evidence to show they can't make a mistake or be caught out. Syrio is a totally separate person. Jaqen is in the Night's Watch caravan because he was a prisoner and we know that's normal; once he gets free, he realizes he's a lone stranger and in the middle of an active war zone to boot, so he assumes the identity of a Lannister soldier and joins up for safety and to repay his debt to Arya (or rather, Arya's debt to the Many Faced God). As we know, FM have a religious attitude towards death and killing. After he's done helping Arya, he gives her some advice as a potential recruit and goes on his merry way to fulfill his original mission.

Name me one plot hole in that story. One reason any of that doesn't make logical narrative sense.

How did he get caught? Why was he there in the first place?

Before getting into another rendition of what I suspect happened, I do think it's worth addressing the fact that while the Faceless Men are famous for being assasins, they also appear to have other operations/motives. They appear to highly value information, and some members appear to be placed to this end, as opposed to all the agents being out in the field solely to preform killings.

I'll try to put my whole theory down again here when I get time, and try to be more clear.

There are lots of little textual clues too, so while I realize I haven't listed everything in a comprehensive or even understandable way, in the future I do want to try and put it all down... in the meantime I'll just leave you with this quote from Arya in the House of White and Black:

Silent as a shadow, she would tell herself, remembering Syrio. She carried a lantern with thick iron shutters. At each alcove, she would open the shutter a crack, to look for corpses.

The dead were never hard to find...

Remembering Syrio, looking for corpses, finding the dead... of course we never saw Syrio's corpse.

Nevets · July 5, 2017

@LiveFirstDieLater I have a few questions.

You say he is with Arya to kill Ned. What is taking him so long? Ned isn't all that inaccessible, nor is he particularly well-guarded. And, given that he is a government official and likely meets with all sorts of people, why can't super-secret-agent man arrange a meeting and poison him at it? And if he really wants to get close to Ned, with his weapons skills, he could probably get a job in Ned's guard. No need to waste time training his daughter.

Similarly, his actions during the coup make no sense if he FM. If he doesn't know what is coming down, why does he agree to go to Winterfell. This will take him a long ways from Ned, and refusing, saying he prefers to remain in KL, his new home, would make perfect sense. If he does know what is going to happen, then why is hanging around the Red Keep in the first place. He spends a lot of time with Arya, even having a long conversation about seeing things. If I were FM, I would be getting the hell out. If needed, I can infiltrate the Red Keep later. And if still have a big problem with him voluntarily putting himself in a cell. I am perfectly satisfied with the explanation that he got caught, and how or doing what doesn't really matter.

And if he gives up and is arrested by Meryn Trent and winds up in the black cells, then why doesn't Cersei know about it? Meryn is her creature, and I can imagine no scenario where Cersei doesn't know. As for why he didn't pick up a longsword from the floor, I don't know. Maybe he didn't have a chance. Maybe he isn't familiar with one, and figured it wouldn't do him any good. Or maybe he decided to commit suicide by Kingsguard. Whatever the reason, I am satisfied that he is dead.

As for it being a continuing mystery, the only person who even thinks about him after the first book is Arya. There is no mention of him at all otherwise. Whereas, with characters such as Benjen, Tyrek, Ashara Dayne, for example, they get frequent mentions and their disappearances are mentioned as being mysterious. Not so with Syrio. He is gone, and I've no doubt he is going to stay that way.

cpg2016 · July 5, 2017

2 hours ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

This seems to be the fundamental thing I'm failing to communicate. A faceless man would disguise himself as Syrio to get close to Ned, it has nothing to do with Arya.

OK.... so why is he getting close to Ned? He has access for months. What exactly is he waiting for? What opportunity is going to present itself after all this time that hadn't already? Maybe Ned was likely to be injured and unconscious? Or shorn of his political protection as Hand? I suppose Syrio could wait for something unforeseen like that.

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But not as good as Bron the Sellsword... Again, we see an example of how an armored man can be defeated, and Syrio didn't kill Trant. He's already downed a handful of guards and could easily pick up a sword. I can't understand how he could be so talented and still lose...

Because Trant is wearing full plate armor, and Syrio isn't. Also, presumably the Lannister guardsmen are (a) less well armed and armored than Ser Meryn, and (b) less well trained. Trant is a an evil bastard, but is considered to be at least halfway worthy of the White Cloak. If you've got a wooden sword, or even a metal one, it's exceptionally difficult to beat a man in full plate. Oberyn only manages it because his spear is long enough that he can stay out of Gregor Clegane's reach and hit weak points in the armor. Syrio doesn't have that advantage. He's a guy in a shirt facing a fully trained and presumably well above average swordsman (though not necessarily a Barristan Selmy or anyone like that).

2 hours ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

That's what I wrote... The Faceless Men never fail. At least that's he rep.

It still begs the question, why is one in prison?

Because they got caught committing a crime? The huge advantage Faceless Men have is, obviously, their ability to change their face. Arya gets away with her assassination against the insurance guy at least in part because she doesn't have to go out in Braavos again wearing that face. If Jaqen can get into another room and gets a few minutes, he can maybe change his identity and escape. But if he's caught in the act? Name any crime. Breaking and entering. If, as I suspect (with nothing concrete) that Jaqen has gone rogue and is working for Euron, that could include anything. But that is immaterial. He's an assassin; he commits crimes for a living. Why is it so crazy that he'd be in prison?

And you said it to imply that Jaqen couldn't possibly fail, because the Faceless Men don't fail. Which isn't the same thing. If Jaqen fails, no one knows the FM were involved, and the HOBAW sends another assassin until they succeed.

2 hours ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

So just to be clear, you think Benjen joined the watch after Bran was born (giving Ned an heir (Rob) and a spare(Bran)? I've never even heard this suggested, and certainly don't think it's explained in the text. Being 4th son of the Royce's isn't the same as being 3rd Stark in line to inherit the North. Not to mention, Jon doesn't seem to expect Bran to join once Rob has kids... and this is while talking to Benjen about the NW:

No, I think he joined a few months after Ned's return from the war. Jon and Robb are already born, so Ned and Cat are proven to be fertile and, just in case no more kids are forthcoming, there is a bastard who Robert will certainly legitimize (due to his relationship with Ned) if asked.

2 hours ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

This isn't to say the FM died of course, it's just like Jaquen "dying" later on, it's the identity that dies. After all, the FM wasn't really Jaquen, or Syrio.

Fine, but we already agreed the Faceless Men don't care about Arya; they wanted to assassinate Ned. So why the sudden interest in Arya? Jaqen takes it about as far as you can expect it to go, by giving her a coin and a passphrase and then leaving on his mission. That is about 90 seconds of "mentoring" and then off. Besides, these are professional assassins. If Syrio's job was to assassinate Ned, then why didn't he return to Braavos?

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At the end of the day, I can't explain why things didn't happen some other way...

Which is a MAJOR hole in your theory. Plus, if he's in a cage with the NW caravan, how the hell is he supposed to kill Ned, who will certainly be watched over day and night by Lannister agents, without giving himself away? And why be in prison for it? Again, if he's at large, why not just volunteer for the NW?

2 hours ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

How did he get caught? Why was he there in the first place?

But you see, these aren't holes in my story. The story doesn't need those questions to be answered for the logic to make sense. Jaqen is in jail. He got caught doing something illegal; Faceless Men are not gods. As well ask what the magic is that allows the FM to actually change faces. Is it interesting? Of course. Is it relevant to the plot? Of course. Does the story need that information in order to work? No. The answer is "it's magic, move on". But if you are talking about a character's motivations, that DOES matter. It is absurdly rare that we don't get a clear sign of why characters are acting the way the are, especially secondary or tertiary ones. We don't know how Qyburn came to join the Brave Companions, but we know why. We don't have exact dates for when Tyrion controlled the cisterns of Casterly Rock, but we know why and we know what its meant to signify.

So I'll say that Jaqen got caught killing the original Jaqen and taking his face; people could associate his old face with a man who came from Braavos if that is where he came from, which is a backtrail. In walks the Gold Cloaks as he's disposing of Jaqen's body, sans face; as a guy who does this a lot, he's probably good at disguising the lack of face, maybe he burns it (as he'll have to with Pate). Jaqen is now caught; new face, but can't outrun or outfight half a dozen goldcloaks, so into the dungeon he goes. And now he enters our story. Why is there in the first place? Easy; sailing around Dorne and the Stepstones is incredibly dangerous. Pirates, dangerous shoals, etc... why risk it? Getting to Kings Landing is safe and cheaper, and it might even be quicker to then go overland than to sail all the way around. And when he sets out on his mission, to kill Balon, the Riverlands/Seven Kingdoms aren't in open war so he assumes he'll have an easier time of it.

2 hours ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

Remembering Syrio, looking for corpses, finding the dead... of course we never saw Syrio's corpse.

Right... this is her remembering Syrio telling her to be silent. You know, a "trust the Force" moment.

2 hours ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

I do think it's worth addressing the fact that while the Faceless Men are famous for being assasins, they also appear to have other operations/motives. They appear to highly value information, and some members appear to be placed to this end, as opposed to all the agents being out in the field solely to preform killings.

I mean, they're professional assassins, and information in general is useful to everyone. The Alchemist infiltrating the Citadel is one of the reasons I think Jaqen has gone rogue, by the way.

But moreover, we have no real indication besides that, that the FM care about anything except killing. Remember, for them, contracts are a form of worship. Their assassinations have a very distinct religious bent to them. They absolutely have agents and allies, such as Izembaro - but these are not actually Faceless Men, from what we've seen. The kindly man scolds Arya when he thinks she may have stolen even a relatively small amount of money from the insurance guy. They don't allow collateral damage. All of that speaks to an organization very tightly focused on one principal, and that principal is set upon a very distinct and spartan form of worship.

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Whereas, with characters such as Benjen, Tyrek, Ashara Dayne, for example, they get frequent mentions and their disappearances are mentioned as being mysterious. Not so with Syrio. He is gone, and I've no doubt he is going to stay that way.

Also this, from Nevets. Can't stress this enough. We don't hear a throwaway mention that Arya's "dancing master" escaped, which certainly would be news for Cersei. All she knows is the guy is a dancing instructor. If Meryn Trant comes to her and says, "the dancing master teaching the Stark girl killed or disabled six of my men, beat me in a swordfight, and got away," that is something you expect to hear about.

Mind you, this is exactly why we never get POVs from characters who have massive secrets to hide, with the exception of Ned. Giving Roose Bolton or Tywin Lannister a POV immediately gives away the Red Wedding. Giving Varys or Illyrio a POV immediately means giving away Aegon's fake ancestry. I guarantee you, the first time we meet Howland Reed, we have R+L=J confirmed for us. It's why Meera and Jojen come to Winterfell instead of Howland.

As I said, Benjen's status is a massive open question in the series. Aegon's parentage is not only openly questioned within the text, but Dany gets prophetic visions about it. Those kinds of mysteries are foreshadowed.

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