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LiveFirstDieLater

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    “I have come to lead you to the other shore; into eternal darkness; into fire and into ice.”
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    “Hope not ever to see Heaven. I have come to lead you to the
    other shore; into eternal darkness; into fire and into ice.”

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  1. The Three Eyed Crow is Old Nan and not Bloodraven I have tried to make various arguments for why I believe Bloodraven is not the three eyed crow on these forums, and I’ve gone back and forth about who the Three Eyed Crow is, but this is my attempt at a relatively concise explanation of why Bloodraven is not the Three Eyed Crow, Old Nan is. Unfortunately mods shut down my last thread, but I’ll give this board one last shot. Sorry about the formatting but this website is terrible. First I: Are You a Crow? Before the Crow even has three eyes, Bran asks very plainly if it is really a crow, and while the crow doesn’t directly answer, it clearly understands the question, and hears Bran call it a crow. This leaves no question that whoever is appearing to Bran will know he/she appeared as a crow. When Bran first meets Sam he asks him if he is the Three eyed Crow. Sam is confused, assumes Bran means a brother of the night’s watch, has the wrong number of eyes, and I think we can all agree is not the three eyed crow. Given this is Sam’s PoV, and he’s thinking about the Three Eyed Crow in the third person, he can be safely ruled out… But it’s worth pointing out how really mad and creepy the whole thing sounds… wanting no seekers to disturb Bran’s bones. Bran also Asks Bloodraven if he is the three eyed crow. Bloodraven makes the same assumption as Sam, and believes Bran is talking about the Night’s Watch. Bran makes the same observation about the crow having the wrong number of eyes. Bloodraven meanwhile should know exactly what Bran means if he was the three eyed crow, since Bran asked the crow in the dream if he was a crow. It is also terribly suspicious that Bloodraven only uses passive verbs about his passed dream interactions with Bran. He says he watched, and saw, but not that he talked, pecked and buffeted… However, the weirwood in Bran’s original falling dream does just watch. Second II: The Many Dreams of Bran After bran’s fall he has different kinds of dreams… Ok so, Bran dreams: Wolf Dreams: when he shares Summer’s Skin Crow Dreams: there the three eyed crow comes and pecks at him and tells him to fly Tree Dreams: Scary tree calls Brans name (Brandon Stark!) Falling Dreams: Where Bran relives the fall from the old tower. So the three eyed crow is distinct from the Weirwood tree, this is important, since as I’ve shown above, Bloodraven (who appears to Melisandre as a wooden face in her fires) doesn’t self-identify as a three eyed crow. Meanwhile the Weirwood tree (distinct entity from the crow) trying to call Brans name wordlessly is a spot on match. Now let’s look at the falling dreams… In Bran’s first falling dream, he seems to remember Jaime throwing him and the Three Eyed Crow tells him he doesn’t need it now. I would suggest that the Three Eyed Crow is either taking a memory from Bran or hiding it from him… So we see that the Three Eyed Crow seems to be able to take Bran’s memories, or at least make him temporarily forget. When does Bran dream the Falling Dream again? Bran dreams the falling dream again after Old Nan fell asleep. Remember Bran has been left in her care since his fall… and she has been protecting him as the three eyed crow from the other dreams (and perhaps from the other dreamers). Here we see the Three Eyed Crow trying to stop Bran from listening to the Weirwood. Using a voice “as sharp as swords”… you know what is compared to a sword, a needle! CLICK CLICK CLICK! And of course, Crows have toothless smiles! Third III: Knowing Fear and Fearing to Know And then, while the joke is on Theon here, Nan continues to be birdlike: And then later… Bran should be scared of the darkness (like in Bloodraven’s Lair). After all… The Night’s King was a Stark of Winterfell, named Brandon Stark… The Talking Corpse, living North of the wall in the lands of always winter, buried beneath the ground in darkness, hooked up to a white Weirwood tree… Who was sent there because he committed a crime, he slew a guest beneath his roof (Blackfyre): And finally, to loop it all back together, here is Ned teaching Bran in his very first chapter, just before they find the wolves: A man can only be brave when he’s afraid… Old Nan telling stories about wildlings abducting people and being in league with the Others. In truth, it is a deserter who is the most dangerous. The man who casts the sentence should swing the sword. The Three Eyed Crow (Nan) shares the terrible knowledge with Bran (looking into the Heart of Winter), just like sharing stories… Nothing but snow and cold and death, with jagged blue white spires of ice, and the bones of a thousand other dreamers… This is a spot on birds eye view of Bloodraven’s Lair. The Grove of frozen Weirwoods in the land of always winter with the wights buried in the snow… The bones of a thousand other dreamers implailed on the roots of the Weirwoods. Bran is afraid… And then he hears Ned’s important lesson. Oh ya, and by the way, Bloodraven is a deserter from the Nights Watch! One who casts the sentence without swinging the sword (check out the end of the Mystery Knight), one who does not know fear (like the Nights King, that was the fault in him) and embraces the darkness, and who flinched from no crime, even violating Guestright like he did by promising safe passage to a Blackfyre and then cutting his head off and presenting it to the Great Council. To complete the metaphor, it is the three eyed crow who leads Bran into the Stark Crypts after Ned’s death, and a bloody raven who brings the word of his death... dark wings dark words. Of course, there are some other loose ends I didn’t even touch on... Jojen, for instance, sharing Mel’s penchant for misinterpretation. The remarkable parallels between Bloodraven’s Lair and the House of the Undying. How Old Nan repeatedly tried to talk to Bran before Theon sacked Winterfell. Or even, how I believe Old Nan is Shierra Seastar, Bloodraven’s half sister (oddly related as the crow is to the raven?)... but if people are interested, those could be topics for follow up conversations.
  2. LiveFirstDieLater

    The Three-Eyed-Crow is Old Nan, not Bloodraven

    There is Wylla to consider of course when talking about milk brothers (re: Jon and Edric Dayne)! but I’m not at all sure what to think of Gilly and Monster... or how that parallel may play in except as the current timeline example of a baby switch. Which of course begs the question about all those past nurse maids and if there was a baby switch potential in any of those situations. I also raise the story of the Dance because not only did a prince die young, a prince have an eye plucked out for reaching (mounting Vhagar), and was cast down with Dark Sister in his socket (a voice as sharp as swords almost certainly refers to a woman’s voice, Cersei’s voice is described this way for instance). The relation to old man Osgrey and his tower with its blackberries is interesting as well... especially if the blackberries are a reference to Blackfyres... it begs the question, was there more to Bran’s visit with the man who gave him a blackberry from the glass garden’s then first met the eye? This is all stuff I’m very much still trying to muddle through, and welcome the company.
  3. LiveFirstDieLater

    The Long Night Gets its own Show!

    While I won’t get into any details for fear of angering any sleeping bears, it’s relatively big news in the world of ice and fire! There’s a show which has been green lit to focus on the Long Night and how it’s not the story we’d expect! Which, of course, we all expected!
  4. LiveFirstDieLater

    The Three-Eyed-Crow is Old Nan, not Bloodraven

    Sorry I see how that all got mushed together... On the one hand we have Old Nan telling what appears to be a lesson about a child climbing too high, while at the same time we have physical evidence of lightning destroying the tower and even rough dates to work with... a hundred years before Ned’s Birth is remarkably close to both the death of the last dragon and the reign of Aegon the Unworthy. But yes, I’m trying to connect dots... At the same time there is the odd fact that next to this lightning struck old watchtower is the First Keep... which is round and covered in gargoyles. A maester claims this means it was built after the arrival of the Andals, but we can almost immediately dismiss this as nonsense... since Winterfell long predates the arrival of Andals, and there are other examples to corroborate this, like Storms End (also said to have been built by Bran) and the Fist of the First Men has a Ringwall. So the question becomes, why was our attention drawn to these details if we can dismiss the conclusion we are presented with? The fact that there is rumor of a dragon leaving eggs at Winterfell, roughly during the time period the ruined Tower was destroyed, also presents the possibility it was destroyed by a dragon and not a lightning strike at all... a boy who climbed to high, could this be a metaphors for the Dance of Dragons... where Jacaerys was the rider of Vermax who came to Winterfell, he also had an incident on Dragonstone as a youth involving the putting out of Prince Aemond’s eye... and then there is Aemond’s death... from the wiki: On the twenty-second day of the fifth month of 130 AC, Aemond and Daemon, mounted on their dragons, engaged in the battle above the Gods Eye, which ended with the two dragons crashing to the floor while Prince Daemon stabbed Aemond in his eye with the Valyrian steel sword Dark Sister. Aemond's body, chained to Vhagar's saddle, sank into the lake. His body (along with Vhagar's skull) was recovered only years later, with Dark Sister still through his eye-socket Just trying to connect dots!
  5. LiveFirstDieLater

    The Three-Eyed-Crow is Old Nan, not Bloodraven

    I find your incessant lecturing hysterical, get over the fake outrage and come to grips with the fact that it doesn’t matter and no one cares, least of all me. We’re talking about reader theories on the internet about a work of fiction, have some perspective. My only apology is to Seams, who actually seemed to be interested in discussing ideas, and anyone else interested in content who was put off by this nonsense. It’s a shame, but I’d rather be banned then fold to a troll like you. Unfortunately, I don’t subscribe to the philosophy it’s ok to ignore conflict, nor that it’s ok to run to authority when someone makes you feel sad. I’m not a child, and ignoring bullies like you only encourages abuse and harassment like this. Go ahead, report me again for not being nice and standing up to you, or grow up and respect someone’s request you leave them alone, it’s your choice. But guess what, when you can’t present your thoughts in rational way, and are unable to support them using anything more than repetition in the face of evidence which directly contradicts you, your opinions should be dismissed and do not deserve any respect or further consideration.
  6. LiveFirstDieLater

    The Three-Eyed-Crow is Old Nan, not Bloodraven

    I don’t care about your opinion of me or the series
  7. LiveFirstDieLater

    Would it matter if Daenerys and Jon Snow were infertile?

    No it would not... plenty of family lines have ended already without getting rid of inheritance or even primogeniture. Then why invade? Vengeance? Where do you get that idea? Her only claim to a crown and dragons comes from her blood... She has shown she is more than willing to let slavery continue in the world, ally herself with a known slaver in Illyrio, and use slave soldiers to fight her battles. I don’t think there is any evidence she is even inclined to break the wheel, hell, she is the wheel! On this I’m inclined to agree with you, I doubt she is infertile, way too wordy a prophesy to simply mean never! But, I wouldn’t be overly surprised if she died in childbirth...
  8. LiveFirstDieLater

    Azor Ahai is a hero, not a villain

    Hero and Villian are not mutually exclusive... The last hero fought with a sword of dragon steel. Was this Azhor Ahai? Because the last hero, with his dog (wolf?) and twelve companions, sought out the Children of the Forrest in the hopes that their magic would save what the armies of men had lost... giving us reason to doubt the story of the battle for the dawn and the founding of the Nights Watch being a great victory which ended the long night. Or at least the order of events... The Nights king was said to be the thirteenth lord commander (is this because of the last hero’s twelve companions?) who saw a corpse bride from the Wall and loved her... was the corpse bride Nissa Nissa? Was the cost of his sword too great and did he, fearing nothing, find his love and return her to life? Might our hero also be our villain?
  9. LiveFirstDieLater

    The three-eyed crow is future Bran

    Cheers! I tend to think Jojen misinterprets most of what he sees. Cold hands is super suspicious (wandering in circles and feeding children man flesh) and Jon I believe is the Silent Wolf Headed King at the Feast of the Dead Dany saw in the House of the Undying. I hear you, and I understand, but the more I mull it over the more it makes sense to me... It’s sort of a tangent, but I’m not at all convinced that greenseers and valyrians are all that different, sure the colors are a little bit, but the powers and the nature of “king’s blood” seems to be pretty consistent... so is there a difference between green dreams and Targaryens dreaming of things to come? I’m not sure... And Bran clearly doesn’t need a candle to appear in Jon’s dream. I find the parallels between the House of the Undying and Bloodraven’s Lair are too striking to ignore, and once one accepts that the Inky Blue Trees of the Undying are really just Weirwoods of a different color in Essos (where the children of the Forrest are now servitors) ... then it’s not a giant leap to imagining them growing in Valyria, and that the blood of the dragon isn’t so different from greenseer blood in what makes it magic. Just a different color.
  10. LiveFirstDieLater

    The three-eyed crow is future Bran

    The formatting is wacky, good luck... I have long believed Bloodraven is not the three eyed crow, and while I’ve considered and run with the time traveling Bran idea... but I’m partial to Old Nan as the Three eyed Crow right now, https://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?/topic/150877-the-three-eyed-crow-is-old-nan-not-bloodraven/ and here here is the old one which seemed more like what you’re saying:
  11. LiveFirstDieLater

    Illyrio dragon eggs. a plot hole?

    Risky and half baked? I might be forced to agree... but let’s say we give them the benefit of the doubt... an argument could be made that: The original plan seems to have been Viserys invading with some loner Dothraki (who we also have to note likely face some significant strategical issues if they campaign in Westeros, like walls and winter) and possibly the Golden Company as well. Dany was never expected to return from the Dothraki sea. It may be that Illyrio and Varys were going to use the Golden Company and Dothraki to invade (maybe assasinate some leadership) and then unite the realm under Aegon to repel them. There are hints that Illyrio has other conspirators in Westeros as well, though I don’t think anyone rational, including Illyrio, believes there are common folk sewing dragon banners en mass, there are houses like Darry (who we see has tapestries of Targaryens in their basement). There is also the odd bit of Redwyn colored clothing Illyrio gives to Tyrion, and the matching Redwyn wine in his cellar linking them. And this Quote super early on: "Ten thousand, that would be enough, I could sweep the Seven Kingdoms with ten thousand Dothraki screamers. The realm will rise for its rightful king. Tyrell, Redwyne, Darry, Greyjoy, they have no more love for the Usurper than I do. The Dornishmen burn to avenge Elia and her children. And the smallfolk will be with us. They cry out for their king." He looked at Illyrio anxiously. "They do, don't they?" We know Dorne made a wedding pact with Viserys in Braavos and would have welcomed his return. Also, it isn’t hard to see why the Tyrells would get on board, given their failed siege of Storms End during Robert’s Rebellion. It may be possible that the gold coin of the Gardeners left by Varys in Rugen’s cell to keep the Tyrells from getting too close to the Lannisters. And finally the odd one of the group, the Greyjoys... I know they had their own rebellion... but do they really belong on the list? I recognize that it may just be an archaic remnant of the early tale before it was developed, still... Euron Greyjoy returns at an oddly opportune time... with help from a Faceless Man... and claims to have once had a dragon’s egg... What if Illyrio gave Dany the old stone eggs for her Wedding because he had acquired a living dragon egg from Euron Greyjoy and in return hired or arranged a Faceless Man kill Balon? (Note: all wild speculation!)
  12. LiveFirstDieLater

    How is the Battle of the Bastards going to happen?

    YES! Jon IV, Game 26 Hmm . . . Samwell is from Horn Hill . . . Jon VI, Game 48 So, one of the principal duties of the men of the Night's Watch is to rouse the men of Westeros to defend against the Others. But the horn used here is metaphorical. Bran III, Clash 21 See, the horn sounds, and the Night's Watch rides off to defend the realms of men. That's a good horn. It wakes the sleepers. Setting aside that I’m not at all convinced that Men won the war for the dawn... after all the last hero set out to find the Children hoping their magic could win back what the armies of men had LOST. Is it metaphorical? Sam, of Horn Hill, is now in Oldtown, Home of the Maesters. He was sent to alert the Maesters... are the maesters, strategically placed in every keep of the kingdom and in control of communication, in fact the sleepers? The Maesters appear to have been founded at the same time as the Nights Watch... during the time of Brandon the Builder, and their oaths against marriage, children, crowns, and family names is remarkably similar. The Base of the Hightower is fused stone sitting on Battle Isle, and their ritual of becoming a Maester involves spending a night with an obsidian candle. Is there a great stone beast there? Does it have something to do with the Sphinx riddle?
  13. LiveFirstDieLater

    The Three-Eyed-Crow is Old Nan, not Bloodraven

    I disagree. I’ve been told by the moderator it is abusive and against the rules to ask you not to post anymore. So I’ll just say, I’m not interested in discussing with you any more... since it will just get me banned. It’s a shame people have to ruin what should be a fun and entertaining discussion and debate. I encourage dissension, that’s why I post at all... but those who can’t base their opinions in the text and insist on taking a stance directly contradicted by the text but won’t let it go, then run to the moderators, aren’t worthy of being taken seriously nor the respect of repeated explanations. Sorry
  14. LiveFirstDieLater

    The Three-Eyed-Crow is Old Nan, not Bloodraven

    Amen! The Saan family pops up at interesting times including as a member of the band of nine. I’ve wondered if Serenei of Lys (after all, Sargaso Saan had the interesting title of The Last Valyrian, but we know Valyrian features are more common in Lys then elsewhere, so dunno) was a Saan, as well as Illyrio’s Serra... The First Keeps Gargoyals are super interesting, especially since it was presumably constructed by Bran the Builder while also fitting with Valyrian architecture. Let me fixate on the tower/gargoyle/Targaryen thing for a moment... because Ive never felt I really understood Nan’s story about the broken tower (not the same as the first keep with the gargoyals, but right next to it, and Bran’s destination when he fell). Old Nan told him a story about a bad little boy who climbed too high and was struck down by lightning, and how afterward the crows came to peck out his eyes. Bran was not impressed. There were crows' nests atop the broken tower, where no one ever went but him, and sometimes he filled his pockets with corn before he climbed up there and the crows ate it right out of his hand. None of them had ever shown the slightest bit of interest in pecking out his eyes. And also, His favorite haunt was the broken tower. Once it had been a watchtower, the tallest in Winterfell. A long time ago, a hundred years before even his father had been born, a lightning strike had set it afire. The top third of the structure had collapsed inward, and the tower had never been rebuilt. Sometimes his father sent ratters into the base of the tower, to clean out the nests they always found among the jumble of fallen stones and charred and rotten beams. But no one ever got up to the jagged top of the structure now except for Bran and the crows. So it seems Nan wasn’t just trying to scare Bran, since the tower which was struck by lightning is right there and seems to be evidence of something... not sure what though... Ned was born in 263 AC... let’s assume that the hundred years before he was born is a rough estimate, we have plenty of interesting things happen wing around then. In 153 the last Targaryen dragon died... also, Aegon the Unworthy (Son of Larra Rogare of Lys) married his sister despite her supposed love for their brother Aemon the Dragonknight. In 170 Daemon Waters (Blackfyre) was born. In 172 Aegon was crowned after the sudden death of his father. In 175 Brynden Rivers (Bloodraven) is born. As just a few examples of what we know... but what was happening in Winterfell? We don’t know that much about the time except that Cregan Stark (who served as Hand during the hour of the wolf in 131) was Lord of Winterfell until at least 157. He also made but never saw fulfilled the so called Pact of Ice and Fire, where a Targaryen was promised to marry into the Stark family. And I’ll conclude this post with a section of the world book I find particularly relevant and interesting. Especially if we consider the contradictions and unreliable narrator we have... We can dismiss Mushroom's claim in his Testimony that the dragon Vermax left a clutch of eggs somewhere in the depths of Winterfell's crypts, where the waters of the hot springs run close to the walls, while his rider treated with Cregan Stark at the start of the Dance of the Dragons. As Archmaester Gyldayn notes in his fragmentary history, there is no record that Vermax ever laid so much as a single egg, suggesting the dragon was male. The belief that dragons could change sex at need is erroneous, according to Maester Anson's Truth, rooted in a misunderstanding of the esoteric metaphor that Barth preferred when discussing the higher mysteries. Within its walls, the castle sprawls across several acres of land, encompassing many freestanding buildings. The oldest of these—a long-abandoned tower, round and squat and covered with gargoyles—has become known as the First Keep. Some take this to mean that it was built by the First Men, but Maester Kennet has definitively proved that it could not have existed before the arrival of the Andals since the First Men and the early Andals raised square towers and keeps. Round towers came sometime later. Hot springs such as the one beneath Winterfell have been shown to be heated by the furnaces of the world—the same fires that made the Fourteen Flames or the smoking mountain of Dragonstone. Yet the smallfolk of Winterfell and the winter town have been known to claim that the springs are heated by the breath of a dragon that sleeps beneath the castle. This is even more foolish than Mushroom's claims and need not be given any consideration.
  15. LiveFirstDieLater

    The Three-Eyed-Crow is Old Nan, not Bloodraven

    You are absolutely right and I think we are misunderstanding each other more than disagreeing... The circumstances and details matter, and we don’t know them, no doubt. What we are working from are a few facts we can hopefully come to agreement on, then interpreting how we see them lining up. I thought you were asking why/how I believed his sentence was commuted. I used the quote because being sentenced to death then being aloud to take the black is the definition of commuting a sentence. I agree we don’t know all the circumstances, I’m presenting an alternative to the commonly accepted narrative. Yes, Bloodraven’s action of granting safe passage then killing his kin was monsterous, I’m not at all surprised Aegon felt he had to sentence him to death. However since he is also bloodraven’s kin, letting him take the black appears a reasonable solution. As much as Aemon believes it was all for him, I’m suggesting this escort was primarily to ensure Bloodraven arrived at the wall, and didn’t escape like Bittersteel. The fact that it is compared to Nymeria sending Kings to the Wall I find an interesting and compelling comparison. Since Aemon and Bloodraven, once legitimized, had legitimate claims to the throne. It’s entirly possible there is some loophole in the Nights Watch Oath I don’t know of, but it’s equally possible there isn’t. Or it’s possible that Bloodraven is exempt from the rules governing men because he is a Targaryen. But I find these arguements require me to do more mental gymnastics than the simplest conclusion, ie, if he’s still alive, isn’t at his post, and says himself he “once” was a member of the nights watch then he broke his bow and abandoned his post. I understand it’s not 100% certain and it’s possible to write him out of it, but that’s how it looks to me. This is totally fair and disention isn’t a bad thing, keeps it interesting. I do think it’s funny we both feel in the minority of readers when it comes to this, since the tv show has passed the books I feel like most people default to that interpretation. Nature isn’t good either though... it isn’t righteous or just... nor does it care about the realms of men, or honor. It’s just a description of the constant struggle of individuals and species for survival. Survival is the single driving force behind all of evolution, survival of the fittest. In reality it is more of a fact of nature than anything really. So when Bran astutely points out that men would be wroth, men would fight, men would swear a bloody vengeance. That isn’t just the darker side of man, it’s a natural reaction, fighting for survival, a dark side of nature, maybe the one true face of nature (as you point out, this struggle also begets all the love and beauty and majesty we hold dear, not just the tears and blood). However, when push comes to shove, and a people face extinction, the natural reaction is to fight. So my expectation is that the Children of the Forrest will share this natural drive to survive and share this dark side of nature... as opposed to those elegant JRRT elves choosing to sail off into the sunset because “their time has passed”. This is the point of the distinction, not that nature is pretty or something. Roll your eyes all you like. Understandable, defeatist, but understandable.
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