Who are the dothraki really supposed to be in terms of real world history?

[Lord Asher Forrester]

SO SPAKE MARTIN:

 

FEBRUARY 04, 2012

ON ETHNICITIES

[NOTE: From this reply by GRRM at "Not a Blog".]

The Dothraki were actually fashioned as an amalgam of a number of steppe and plains cultures... Mongols and Huns, certainly, but also Alans, Sioux, Cheyenne, and various other Amerindian tribes... seasoned with a dash of pure fantasy. So any resemblance to Arabs or Turks is coincidental. Well, except to the extent that the Turks were also originally horsemen of the steppes, not unlike the Alans, Huns, and the rest.

There do exist many other cultures and civilizations in my world, to be sure. The peoples of Yi Ti have been mentioned, as have the Jogos Nhai. I am not sure to what extent those peoples will ever enter this present story, however... their lands are very far away.

(I also have peoples and tribes that are pure fantasy constructs, like the Qartheen and the brindled men of Sothoryos).

In general, though, while I do draw inspiration from history, I try to avoid direct one-for-one transplants, whether of individuals or of entire cultures. Just as it not correct to say that Robert was Henry VIII or Edward IV, it would not be correct to say that the Dothraki are Mongols.

IMNSHO, anyway.

 

[Foot_Of_The_King]

Tons of different civilizations like the Dothraki existed on the Asian Step (Dothraki Sea) throughout history. The things they had in common were they were nomadic and revolutionized war on horseback. So thousands of years worth of nomadic horsemen on a giant grass sea = Dothraki. 

[cpg2016]

On 7/1/2017 at 7:28 AM, devilish said:

The Mongols weren't just people on horse back who could fire arrows. The Mongols relied on cutting edge technology (the Mongolian composite bow was an archery masterpiece) and revolutionary/cutting edge tactics that literally brought guerrilla warfare into mainstream warfare. Seriously, comparing the Mongols to the Dothraki is like comparing the Navy seals with a typical US border control officer because they both happen to be Americans and have a gun. 

There are other tribes/nations who relied on a cavalry based army (ex Alans or the Native American tribes) which are closer to the Dothraki then the Mongols are.

As others have said, you are looking at this too simplistically.  The Dothraki are not just the Mongols with a different name.  They take some influences from the Mongols (their superb horsemanship, some of their fighting techniques, the existence of a mountain as a holy place (like Burkhan Khaldun).  But in other respects they are very different.  This is in keeping with everything in ASOIAF.  If you're looking for perfect parallels, they don't exist.  The Dothraki are a generic steppe culture.

 

On 7/1/2017 at 7:20 AM, devilish said:

Most of Essos is stuck in early Roman times (phalanxes etc)

Actually, Essos is in the Renaissance.  A large group of city states fighting over land with mercenary companies?  Sounds like Renaissance Italy to me.  Also, the technology level in the Free Cities and their very mercantalist culture strongly implies the Renaissance (glass blowing, lens-making, the Arsenal in Venice and Braavos are near exact parallels, etc).

[devilish]

1 hour ago, cpg2016 said:

As others have said, you are looking at this too simplistically.  The Dothraki are not just the Mongols with a different name.  They take some influences from the Mongols (their superb horsemanship, some of their fighting techniques, the existence of a mountain as a holy place (like Burkhan Khaldun).  But in other respects they are very different.  This is in keeping with everything in ASOIAF.  If you're looking for perfect parallels, they don't exist.  The Dothraki are a generic steppe culture.

 

Actually, Essos is in the Renaissance.  A large group of city states fighting over land with mercenary companies?  Sounds like Renaissance Italy to me.  Also, the technology level in the Free Cities and their very mercantalist culture strongly implies the Renaissance (glass blowing, lens-making, the Arsenal in Venice and Braavos are near exact parallels, etc).

As said before they are anything but Mongol. The Mongolian army was a beast, the best cavalry based army in the world. The only link between the two is that they are both cavalry based. The Mongolian army used armour. The Dothraki didn't. The Mongolian army were the best of their era in terms of tactics. The Dothraki will go head on against an organized army in phalanx formation. The Mongolian army relied heavily on its composite bow which was one of the best weapons in medieval warfare. The Dothraki's main weapon is a useless slashing sword that is as effective against armour as a child's balloon. Seriously, comparing the Dothraki to the Mongols is like comparing a street riot to the Republic Roman army because they both happen to be infantry based. There are other cavalry based armies that are closer to the Dothraki to the Mongols including the typical cut and paste cavalry based native american armies.

Essos free cities may be Renaissance in nature, however I am not sure in terms of military. The Unsullied is a big thing in Essos and with all due respect to them, they would have their bottom handed to by Alexander's army. The Golden company still uses elephants which in Europe because outdated  by the Republican Rome's time. 

[cpg2016]

6 minutes ago, devilish said:

As said before they are anything but Mongol. The Mongolian army was a beast, the best cavalry based army in the world. The only link between the two is that they are both cavalry based. The Mongolian army used armour. The Dothraki didn't. The Mongolian army were the best of their era in terms of tactics. The Dothraki will go head on against an organized army in phalanx formation. The Mongolian army relied heavily on its composite bow which was one of the best weapons in medieval warfare. 

Sooo... they aren't anything but Mongol.  Since, you know, you just pointed out at least two similarities (cavalry based, use of bow).  And for all we know the Dothraki ARE the best cavalry in the world.  And again... there are other similarities.  Drinking horseblood and fermented mare's milk.  Worship of a sacred mountain.  It isn't a perfect parallel, but there are influences.  They aren't supposed to be the Mongols.  You're so intent on showing how there are some differences (many, in fact) that you are ignoring there are parallels, and the Dothraki are anyway a fantasy army drawing from myriad influences and sources.  A few come from the Mongols, and more from other steppe cultures.

And moreover, the Mongols existed long before Genghis Khan and it's arguable that those warring bands more closely resemble the Dothraki situation than did the "Imperial" Mongol phase starting with Genghis.

[marsyao]

On 6/30/2017 at 4:26 AM, Lord Vance II said:

Loosely based on Mongols but dumbed down to serve their purpose.

Blood line was and is extremely important in Mongol culture, Dothraki had the opposite opinion at this field 

[giant snake]

To anyone knowledgeable about the history of the plains Indians, particularly the Sioux, you probably saw the similarity right away.  They were the most successful of the warring tribes and did maintain something quite unique in history: a massive tribal confederation which almost resembled an Empire without a State.  The various tribes could squabble but they still understood that they were part of a separate race and tribe from the other plains Indians.

What they were most known for in their conquests was booty and slavery.  The Dothraki fit in well with the analogy.

 

I don't take anything in Essos as being close to history in most cases - it's more of Robert E Howard's kind of world, or perhaps a parallel tothe classical world somehow existing across the sea from medieval Europe, but only in bits and pieces.  Dothraki are a mix too, but they do seem believable if you took the Sioux (after receiving and mastering the horse, of course) and transplanted their empire onto the periphery of Europe during the middle ages.  They are a lot more realistic and less fantastic than Slaver's Bay or Qarth.

[Sondre]

Y'all need to chill. They are post-empire mongolians culturally and historically, while technologically native americans, with twist and turns wherever GRRM feels like putting them in. Forget about Genghis, that was long ago. Think Timur, Golden Horde, etc etc.