Samwell_Tarly

Bran is the Night King

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Now his younger more vulnerable self is past the wall. That is perhaps his motivation to go south to stop the chain of paradox like events.

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5 hours ago, pinoyathletics said:

Maybe the only way the Night King can die, Is if he kills himself at a time when he wasnt invulnerable. What if Valyrian steel or dragon glass doesnt work. Then what. Maybe the only way Night King can die is by killing his younger more vulnerable self.

This could make sense.  Maybe, for all we know, he is invincible as the NK, so to escape this timeline, he is looking to take himself out while he is still just a young man...

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Posted (edited)

6 hours ago, Jaehaerys Stark said:

This could make sense.  Maybe, for all we know, he is invincible as the NK, so to escape this timeline, he is looking to take himself out while he is still just a young man...

If he is invincible then he doesn't need the wights etc. If he kills himself, then what is to prevent the children of the forest from just taking another first man to make the first other? All it does is remove Bran himself from the equation, but doesn't prevent the same chain of events, albeit with different characters from happening over and over again?

for this to happen, bran has to be able to physically travel through time, not just spiritually 

Edited by Error-504

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15 hours ago, Error-504 said:

If he is invincible then he doesn't need the wights etc. If he kills himself, then what is to prevent the children of the forest from just taking another first man to make the first other? All it does is remove Bran himself from the equation, but doesn't prevent the same chain of events, albeit with different characters from happening over and over again?

for this to happen, bran has to be able to physically travel through time, not just spiritually 

Invincible may have been a strong word.  We'll say strong enough that he would figure that he would have to kill of his younger self himself.  I should have prefaced my comment by saying the idea is based off of a theory that Bran has been going back over and over trying to do different things to prevent the Great War from ever happening.  All without realizing, or accepting, that the "ink is dry", meaning that no matter how many times he goes back to change something, it has already happened, thus really changing nothing at all.  Hence Hodor already being Hodor before the "Hold the door" incident happened.  See what I'm saying?  Maybe he can physically go through time.  The NK grabbed him physically.  Without knowing the true extent of either Bran's or the NK powers, who is to say what he's capable of.  The idea behind the theory is that at some point, Bran goes back to try to persuade the CotF not to create the NK, but in actuality is caught by the CotF and used to create the NK.  Doesn't work for the show in my mind since the man the CotF used to make the NK is walking and doesn't look like Bran, but the person who posed the theory talks about how during that scene, Bran seems to be re-living that incident as he is seeing it, mimicking the actions of being tied to the tree, as well as seemingly pained himself when seeing the dragonglass shoved into the NK heart.  I realize it's a stretch, but the way the poster had the theory laid out, it certainly seemed intriguing...

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2 hours ago, Jaehaerys Stark said:

Invincible may have been a strong word.  We'll say strong enough that he would figure that he would have to kill of his younger self himself.  I should have prefaced my comment by saying the idea is based off of a theory that Bran has been going back over and over trying to do different things to prevent the Great War from ever happening.  All without realizing, or accepting, that the "ink is dry", meaning that no matter how many times he goes back to change something, it has already happened, thus really changing nothing at all.  Hence Hodor already being Hodor before the "Hold the door" incident happened.  See what I'm saying?  Maybe he can physically go through time.  The NK grabbed him physically.  Without knowing the true extent of either Bran's or the NK powers, who is to say what he's capable of.  The idea behind the theory is that at some point, Bran goes back to try to persuade the CotF not to create the NK, but in actuality is caught by the CotF and used to create the NK.  Doesn't work for the show in my mind since the man the CotF used to make the NK is walking and doesn't look like Bran, but the person who posed the theory talks about how during that scene, Bran seems to be re-living that incident as he is seeing it, mimicking the actions of being tied to the tree, as well as seemingly pained himself when seeing the dragonglass shoved into the NK heart.  I realize it's a stretch, but the way the poster had the theory laid out, it certainly seemed intriguing...

If Bran warged into the man being turned in the Nights King. Would he be trapped in that body somehow and thus be able to exist two places in the same time line?? his younger self and his trapped in the Nights King bodies self. The Nights King obviously needs the Wrights to speed things up not cause they offer him protection. Lets say he cant die. It will take him longer to catch and kill Bran (his younger self), if he has to take down armies of men who dont want him to Kill Bran. Its not that he actually might need the Wights. But it gets things done quicker having them.

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On 3/8/2017 at 6:37 PM, ravenous reader said:

new creepy Bran seems to enjoy inhabiting the peeping-tom role on other people's wedding nights, right, so mayhaps he'll give his brother a little assistance?  -- Oh, cara @Cridefea, where are you -- now I know why it's called 'uccello' in Italian! ;)

Oh RR  a bird  with 3 eyes, this conversation has so many potential, thank you..... "You will never walk again but you will fly (high)" so many threads to understand the meaning, but the italians already knew.  

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Acording to the theory that Bran is believed to be either Night King or Brandon the Builder or even every Bran in Stark's generations. As we already know every theory can happen that show. As I think that is highy acceptable that he is NK but at the same time is really doubtful. It is because of time paradox. Just think about it. If we are imaginating timeline as a line then somewhere there is located point 0 - present time. Below 0 is past and above -
future. As we know, Bran can travel in time and space to different situations over the history. He is not only the observer but also he can interfere in time - his father heard him, maybe he was responsible for Mad King's madness and the most known "Hold the door".

Night King was created by Children of the Forrest and it is believed that Bran could use his Warg powers to took control over that man to stop either CotF from creating him or NK and White Walkers. In the same moment he was captured in his body and couldn't come back. That is why NK could see and touch Bran in vision. But the problem in that theory is fact that Bran in present, point 0 time is alright. He is Three Eyed Crow. In that condition we have two Brans. One is in Winterfell as TEC and other is NK. But what we see in show is point 0 than we should have just one as NK and the body of Bran being mindless. That is why i think Bran can't be NK. Otherwidse it would create time paradox.

BUT...

What if Got is happening in the past? That is just story of someone? What if we do not know whats happening in the point 0? With that there is possibility of two Brans in one time. One wuold be NK and other young Bran in Winterfell. Then in point 0 Bran could take control over NK and be him. At the same time there would be young version of Bran from point 0 before taking control.

In straight timeline that makes sense. There would be no paradox in time. And time would be linear with past, present amd future. 

BUT...

There is one more possibility to it. Time loop or timeline being circular. In that case we have endless continuity of the same history, the same events all the time. 

What do You think?

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5 hours ago, DraconSnow said:

Acording to the theory that Bran is believed to be either Night King or Brandon the Builder or even every Bran in Stark's generations. As we already know every theory can happen that show. As I think that is highy acceptable that he is NK but at the same time is really doubtful. It is because of time paradox. Just think about it. If we are imaginating timeline as a line then somewhere there is located point 0 - present time. Below 0 is past and above -
future. As we know, Bran can travel in time and space to different situations over the history. He is not only the observer but also he can interfere in time - his father heard him, maybe he was responsible for Mad King's madness and the most known "Hold the door".

Night King was created by Children of the Forrest and it is believed that Bran could use his Warg powers to took control over that man to stop either CotF from creating him or NK and White Walkers. In the same moment he was captured in his body and couldn't come back. That is why NK could see and touch Bran in vision. But the problem in that theory is fact that Bran in present, point 0 time is alright. He is Three Eyed Crow. In that condition we have two Brans. One is in Winterfell as TEC and other is NK. But what we see in show is point 0 than we should have just one as NK and the body of Bran being mindless. That is why i think Bran can't be NK. Otherwidse it would create time paradox.

BUT...

What if Got is happening in the past? That is just story of someone? What if we do not know whats happening in the point 0? With that there is possibility of two Brans in one time. One wuold be NK and other young Bran in Winterfell. Then in point 0 Bran could take control over NK and be him. At the same time there would be young version of Bran from point 0 before taking control.

In straight timeline that makes sense. There would be no paradox in time. And time would be linear with past, present amd future. 

BUT...

There is one more possibility to it. Time loop or timeline being circular. In that case we have endless continuity of the same history, the same events all the time. 

What do You think?

This is what I have been talking about.  Bran keeps going back to different points in time, trying to keep the Great War from happening, when in fact, everything he is doing to try to change things has already happened.  So no matter what he does, it's already been done.  I think the Hodor/Hold the Door example points to this...

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Well I always had the feeling that Asoiaf is going to turn out to be more sci-fi than fantasy.

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But the dude turned into a White Walker by the CotF has dark blond features and doesn't look anything like Bran. On the other hand we don't know if that man is the (current) NK. Or do you mean Bran warged into him? :/ 

Maybe Jon Snow is the John Connor of Asoiaf, Bran is Skynet and the NK is the Terminator. In reverse.

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If the Valyrian Dagger is needed to kill the NK, it would add several levels of Irony to the story.......

And Jamie is Azor Ahai, Plunges Widows Wail through the heart of Cersei to forge Light bringer.......

Jamie ends up killing Bran

Bah, I hate it............

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Posted (edited)

I do not think that Bran is the Night's King but I would be interested to see, since the NK is now a major player, if he had a namable identity before the Children turned him into what he is now and also, where has he been these last, say, ho 5-8 thousand years since the last time they showed up?

Edited by A Ghost of Someone

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Posted (edited)

50 minutes ago, A Ghost of Someone said:

I do not think that Bran is the Night's King but I would be interested to see, since the NK is now a major player, if he had a namable identity before the Children turned him into what he is now and also, where has he been these last, say, ho 5-8 thousand years since the last time they showed up?

LOl, think of all the spirals and circles with a line through them though, how ironic is it that Jamie kills Cersei, forges light bringer, kills bran with the same dagger they tried to kill him with in the first season, bran actually had the dagger that would kill him in his hand, etc etc. Jamie is the king slayer, the queen slayer, and the NK slayer, all at once. 

Edited by Error-504

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On 8/12/2017 at 11:24 AM, A Ghost of Someone said:

I do not think that Bran is the Night's King but I would be interested to see, since the NK is now a major player, if he had a namable identity before the Children turned him into what he is now and also, where has he been these last, say, ho 5-8 thousand years since the last time they showed up?

Waiting until Bran Stark was born so he can kill him?

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Damn, this theory reminds me of AJT.  It seems off to begin with, but just keeps growing and ... fitting.

Take a look at when Bran gives Arya the valyrian steel dagger.  Bran - despite being Dr Branhattan - visibly blanches and looks troubled when he gives it to Arya.

He may not have joined all the dots yet ... but what if he has a premonition then that this dagger will kill him?

Just as he had the vision (in the books) of a woman using a bronze sickle to slit the throat of a man tied to a weirwood.  And this giving of the dagger that will kill him happens in front of the Old Weirwood and cold pool (which mirrors the weirwood on the God's Eye where the Night King was created.

So NK is actually Bran just trying to get to God's Eye to commit suicide?

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1 hour ago, Aemon Targaryen said:

Waiting until Bran Stark was born so he can kill him?

Not a half bad guess. Maybe Bran was born to defeat the Night's King or it is a so many thousands year cycle. They are the only ones that can defeat each other and the Night's King knows it. I have always thought that while Jon is unique, that he is somewhat a red herring. I think that Bran, atleast in the books is the "indespensible" one that the living needs.

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Grim ironies are always a pointer that GRRM will go in that direction.Some additional reasons why this theory deserves a lot more credence than it seems to be getting:

1.  Bittersweet - We now know Jon and Dany are going to hook up and have a baby.  That greatly increases the sweetness/schmaltz side of the ledger.  But what is the bitterness to balance it out?  

Humanity is still going to survive.  Jon and Dany's deaths are already priced in, esp since Jon has already died -- that is not enough bitterness, imo.  

Given the whole twist with Jon coming back to life, Jon's final death doesn't really add much bitter.  True that if Jon and Dany have a great romance and die leaving a son, just like R+L left Jon, that will be bitter.

But it doesn't seem bitter or unexpected enough.

To me, GRRM will want one final sting in the tail, a mega headfuck twist greater than Ned dying and greater than the Red Wedding.

2.  Cat's paw irony - first, that the valyrian steel dagger intended to kill Jon back in season 1 - which is what commences the story of GOT in leading Ned not to refuse Robert's request for him to be Hand -  actually does end up killing Bran (as NK) and ending the story.

3.  Bran will Hodor himself - this is possibly the biggest satisfying irony.  The full consequences of the Hodor situation have yet to be revealed, especially given how loved Hodor was to GRRM and readers.  There must have been a point besides merely darkening Bran's character and showing his power.

What better way than Bran somehow warging back into the flash back where NK is created and becoming him?

4.  The Ink is Dry ...

At first sight, the 3ER's comments appear to have been contradicted by Bran disturbing Ned at ToJ and by causing Wyllis to become Hodor.

That is, on the show, it seems that it is an open question whether Bran can change the past (and thus the present and future).

But the only real possible narrative solution to this possibility is to prove that the 3ER was correct to say that the time loop always closes and that the ink is always already dry.

(For one thing - it would simply be impossible either in the show or even the books for multiple futures to be dealt with or played out. As a matter of narrative exigency, the time paradoxes must resolve into a single time loop).

But at the moment Bran (and the audience) doesn't know this and it seems as if the 3ER may have been proved wrong.

WHAT DOES IT ALL MEAN?

The way is open for Bran, in a moment of desperation, to try to go back and prevent the NK's creation, only to become him.  I guess at that point he ceases to exist in the "present" in Winterfell (but his body remains, limp).

But that would mean the NK has always been Bran ... in which case either the NK has pure motives (based around self-destruction - but this doesn't make sense) or Bran does an Anakin Skywalker and actually turns to evil.  

This is possible - but it would seem to only make sense if the power of the CoTF's magic was such that it instantly turned Bran evil from the start ... in which case the NK has always been evil, and is still evil, but there is a chance for Bran to snap out of it?

Maybe GRRM is going to do with NK/Bran what Joss Whedon did with Angel/Angelus in Buffy, when after a fight to the death just as Buffy is going to kill the evil Angelus he turns back into Angel ... NK turns back into Bran but Jon or Arya has to kill him anyway?

IF BRAN IS NOT NK WHAT IS THEIR CONNECTION?

So, assuming all the above is wrong, still as a matter of story logic there must be some deeper connection than what we already know between NK and Bran.

The story simply won't be satisfying without that.

It will not be enough for NK to be some random Stark, and it will not be enough for NK to be an old Stark that was really Bran (so that maybe NK and Bran are brothers).  It has to be something that grips the "present" characters .... there is some element of Greek tragedy lurking here .... it might not be the above, but it has to be something like it.

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On August 3, 2017 at 9:54 AM, WeaselPie said:

Bran the Timelord!  Finally people are coming around.

Bran is the source of a lot of the old, old prophesies. He time-travelled (if you really must call it that) and implanted in people's minds once he's seen what actually happened. His past is their future.

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14 hours ago, Aemon Targaryen said:

Grim ironies are always a pointer that GRRM will go in that direction.Some additional reasons why this theory deserves a lot more credence than it seems to be getting:

1.  Bittersweet - We now know Jon and Dany are going to hook up and have a baby.  That greatly increases the sweetness/schmaltz side of the ledger.  But what is the bitterness to balance it out?  

Humanity is still going to survive.  Jon and Dany's deaths are already priced in, esp since Jon has already died -- that is not enough bitterness, imo.  

Given the whole twist with Jon coming back to life, Jon's final death doesn't really add much bitter.  True that if Jon and Dany have a great romance and die leaving a son, just like R+L left Jon, that will be bitter.

But it doesn't seem bitter or unexpected enough.

To me, GRRM will want one final sting in the tail, a mega headfuck twist greater than Ned dying and greater than the Red Wedding.

2.  Cat's paw irony - first, that the valyrian steel dagger intended to kill Jon back in season 1 - which is what commences the story of GOT in leading Ned not to refuse Robert's request for him to be Hand -  actually does end up killing Bran (as NK) and ending the story.

3.  Bran will Hodor himself - this is possibly the biggest satisfying irony.  The full consequences of the Hodor situation have yet to be revealed, especially given how loved Hodor was to GRRM and readers.  There must have been a point besides merely darkening Bran's character and showing his power.

What better way than Bran somehow warging back into the flash back where NK is created and becoming him?

4.  The Ink is Dry ...

At first sight, the 3ER's comments appear to have been contradicted by Bran disturbing Ned at ToJ and by causing Wyllis to become Hodor.

That is, on the show, it seems that it is an open question whether Bran can change the past (and thus the present and future).

But the only real possible narrative solution to this possibility is to prove that the 3ER was correct to say that the time loop always closes and that the ink is always already dry.

(For one thing - it would simply be impossible either in the show or even the books for multiple futures to be dealt with or played out. As a matter of narrative exigency, the time paradoxes must resolve into a single time loop).

But at the moment Bran (and the audience) doesn't know this and it seems as if the 3ER may have been proved wrong.

WHAT DOES IT ALL MEAN?

The way is open for Bran, in a moment of desperation, to try to go back and prevent the NK's creation, only to become him.  I guess at that point he ceases to exist in the "present" in Winterfell (but his body remains, limp).

But that would mean the NK has always been Bran ... in which case either the NK has pure motives (based around self-destruction - but this doesn't make sense) or Bran does an Anakin Skywalker and actually turns to evil.  

This is possible - but it would seem to only make sense if the power of the CoTF's magic was such that it instantly turned Bran evil from the start ... in which case the NK has always been evil, and is still evil, but there is a chance for Bran to snap out of it?

Maybe GRRM is going to do with NK/Bran what Joss Whedon did with Angel/Angelus in Buffy, when after a fight to the death just as Buffy is going to kill the evil Angelus he turns back into Angel ... NK turns back into Bran but Jon or Arya has to kill him anyway?

IF BRAN IS NOT NK WHAT IS THEIR CONNECTION?

So, assuming all the above is wrong, still as a matter of story logic there must be some deeper connection than what we already know between NK and Bran.

The story simply won't be satisfying without that.

It will not be enough for NK to be some random Stark, and it will not be enough for NK to be an old Stark that was really Bran (so that maybe NK and Bran are brothers).  It has to be something that grips the "present" characters .... there is some element of Greek tragedy lurking here .... it might not be the above, but it has to be something like it.

Exactly what its in my brain, unfortunately I cant portray/write it as well as you have. 

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