Question about the position of Warden of the East

[Фейсал]

I'm kind of surprised this isn't a bigger deal in the books. Jaime is named Warden of the East since Jon's son is too young to rule; yet Jaime is a member of the KG, incapable of holding any lands and titles?

Wouldn't said title grant him regency of the Vale and surrounding areas? 

[falcotron]

Warden isn't a title,* it's just a job, and it comes with no lands. It just means he's the supreme general who leads the Vale's armies if they're called up by the king (as GRRM explains in a couple of SSMs, like this one).

And it definitely doesn't grant regency. Regent is a separate job. But, even if did, regent is also not a title and also comes with no lands.

There are also smaller wardenships that aren't even traditionally connected to Lordships Paramount. Franklyn Fowler is called Warden of Prince's Pass, and I think there are a few others.

Also, Robb named the Blackfish as Warden of the Southern Marches, and he has no title (although he has the style Ser for being a knight, of course); it's the same as when he was Knight of the Gate for Jon Arryn.

---

* Of course in modern language we refer to things like "general" as titles, but they're not titles of nobility. The distinction was actually a big deal historically for both the USA and the USSR, who were both careful to avoid any military titles with peerage connotations, like marshal. But it's pretty clear that the oath refers to titles in the peerage sense—otherwise, no Kingsguard member could be Lord Commander of the Kingsguard…

[SirArthur]

KG is allowed to hold titles that are not inheritable. The title of hand of the king is holdable by KG. 

[ChuckPunch]

Yeah as others have said, it's basically a "you're a general sometimes" honor that is rarely utilized. 

[Clegane'sPup]

1 hour ago, falcotron said:

Warden isn't a title,* it's just a job, and it comes with no lands

 

1 hour ago, Фейсал said:

I'm kind of surprised this isn't a bigger deal in the books. Jaime is named Warden of the East since Jon's son is too young to rule; yet Jaime is a member of the KG, incapable of holding any lands and titles?

A Game of Thrones - Bran I            He took hold of Ice with both hands and said, "In the name of Robert of the House Baratheon, the First of his Name, King of the Andals and the Rhoynar and the First Men, Lord of the Seven Kingdoms and Protector of the Realm, by the word of Eddard of the House Stark, Lord of Winterfell and Warden of the North, I do sentence you to die." He lifted the greatsword high above his head.

A Game of Thrones - Eddard I           "No doubt I will hear what your brother says soon enough," Robert said. "The Wall has stood for what, eight thousand years? It can keep a few days more. I have more pressing concerns. These are difficult times. I need good men about me. Men like Jon Arryn. He served as Lord of the Eyrie, as Warden of the East, as the Hand of the King. He will not be easy to replace."

A Game of Thrones - Eddard II     Kingslayer," Ned said. The rumors were true, then. He rode on dangerous ground now, he knew. "An able and courageous man, no doubt," he said carefully, "but his father is Warden of the West, Robert. In time Ser Jaime will succeed to that honor. No one man should hold both East and West." He left unsaid his real concern; that the appointment would put half the armies of the realm into the hands of Lannisters.

Does appear that Robert appointed Jaime Warden of the East and Eddard was complaining.

[falcotron]

2 hours ago, Clegane'sPup said:

Does appear that Robert appointed Jaime Warden of the East and Eddard was complaining.

Yes, Ned complained. Lysa did too, and so did some of the Vale Lords, to the point where (ACoK Tyrion IV) Tywin considers naming Sweetrobin the Warden again to make them happy, which he eventually does… at some point? (I can't find it in the story, but it must be before ASoS, given the appendix. And the wiki doesn't help at all here.)

But I think the OP was suggesting that people should have complained specifically over the issue of Jaime being in the KG and being Warden of the East at the same time.

[cpg2016]

15 hours ago, falcotron said:

Yes, Ned complained. Lysa did too, and so did some of the Vale Lords, to the point where (ACoK Tyrion IV) Tywin considers naming Sweetrobin the Warden again to make them happy, which he eventually does… at some point? (I can't find it in the story, but it must be before ASoS, given the appendix. And the wiki doesn't help at all here.)

But I think the OP was suggesting that people should have complained specifically over the issue of Jaime being in the KG and being Warden of the East at the same time.

Correct.  The problem is that Warden of the East has essentially been a hereditary title for the Arryns, much as Warden of the West, North, and South have traditionally been Lannister/Stark/Tyrell positions.  It's also an issue that the Lannisters then hold military command over 2 of the 4 wardenships, which gives them a lot of hard power.

[Clegane'sPup]

19 hours ago, falcotron said:

But I think the OP was suggesting that people should have complained specifically over the issue of Jaime being in the KG and being Warden of the East at the same time.

Perhaps. Martin has to spin a tale. I'll go out on a limb here --- when GoT was written I doubt the author gave it much thought.

19 hours ago, falcotron said:

Yes, Ned complained. Lysa did too, and so did some of the Vale Lords, to the point where (ACoK Tyrion IV) Tywin considers naming Sweetrobin the Warden again to make them happy, which he eventually does… at some point? (I can't find it in the story, but it must be before ASoS, given the appendix. And the wiki doesn't help at all here.)

You probably already know about it. I thought I would share it in case some people don't. https://asearchoficeandfire.com/

Wonderful search engine. Put a check in the character name and a check in the book title ------ fantastic and fun.

[falcotron]

3 minutes ago, Clegane'sPup said:

You probably already know about it. I thought I would share it in case some people don't. https://asearchoficeandfire.com/

Wonderful search engine. Put a check in the character name and a check in the book title ------ fantastic and fun.

Yeah, it's a great thing.

And, while we're at it, HollowayDivision's custom Google search for SSMs is pretty nifty too.

Of course when you're trying to confirm that we don't see Tywin following through on his plan to transfer the Wardenship back before the end of the book, the best you can say after searching everything you can think of is "I can't find it", not "it definitely doesn't happen". But that's still worth saying—someone else might think they remember it and come up with a better search and find a reference that I'd forgotten and failed to search for.

[Clegane'sPup]

On 9/27/2017 at 6:03 PM, falcotron said:

Of course when you're trying to confirm that we don't see Tywin following through on his plan to transfer the Wardenship back before the end of the book,

You best be getting on with the business of trying to find that. Help me out by expanding your thought and I'll try to help you find what you are looking for.

On 9/27/2017 at 6:03 PM, falcotron said:

the best you can say after searching everything you can think of is "I can't find it", not "it definitely doesn't happen".

That’s when you go through the detailed notes and the paper back’s with the notes written in the margins.

On 9/27/2017 at 6:03 PM, falcotron said:

But that's still worth saying—someone else might think they remember it and come up with a better search and find a reference that I'd forgotten and failed to search for.

Five books and approximately 5000 pages. The search site works verra good. It also helps me when a poster refreshes my memory.

[falcotron]

1 hour ago, Clegane'sPup said:

You best be getting on with the business of trying to find that. Help me out by expanding your thought and I'll try to help you find what you are looking for.

There's not much more to it than I said. Somewhere after Tyrion IV, Tywin follows through on giving the Wardenship back to the Arryns. I initially had a vague recollection that we explicitly saw someone say or think something before the end of the book, which would narrow down when it happened. But the more I tried to think about it, the more convinced I became that my initial vague recollection was wrong. So I searched for everything I could think of ("Warden", "Arryn", etc.), but it's hard to actually confirm that nobody said or thought anything anywhere that would tell us when Robert became Warden of the East.

[Nihlus]

The title is loosely defined and seemingly has no hard power. Daven Lannister is now Warden of the West, which in theory should make him the supreme commander of a quarter of the forces of an entire continent, but in practice he has a couple thousand to a few thousand guys under his command. The title of Warden was treated as a big deal in AGOT, when Ned was horrified when he heard that Robert was giving the title to Jaime and considered it a military necessity in the face of an invasion to give it to Stannis, but from then on it's just window dressing. In the same conversation Ned is also concerned that Jaime being Warden of the East would make him responsible for half the continent's armies when Tywin died and he inherited the titles of Lord Paramount of the Westerlands and Warden of the West, even though the series later establishes that as a Kingsguard Jaime wouldn't get anything if Tywin died. So GRRM probably just changed his mind.

[Nittanian]

12 hours ago, falcotron said:

There's not much more to it than I said. Somewhere after Tyrion IV, Tywin follows through on giving the Wardenship back to the Arryns. I initially had a vague recollection that we explicitly saw someone say or think something before the end of the book, which would narrow down when it happened. But the more I tried to think about it, the more convinced I became that my initial vague recollection was wrong. So I searched for everything I could think of ("Warden", "Arryn", etc.), but it's hard to actually confirm that nobody said or thought anything anywhere that would tell us when Robert became Warden of the East.

The ASOS Appendix includes "ROBERT ARRYN, Lord of the Eyrie, Defender of the Vale, Warden of the East, a sickly boy of eight years", while the AFFC Appendix includes "ROBERT ARRYN, Lord of the Eyrie, Defender of the Vale, styled by his mother True Warden of the East, a sickly boy of eight years, sometimes called SWEETROBIN".

[Clegane'sPup]

18 hours ago, falcotron said:

 Somewhere after Tyrion IV, Tywin follows through on giving the Wardenship back to the Arryns. I initially had a vague recollection that we explicitly saw someone say or think something before the end of the book, which would narrow down when it happened. But the more I tried to think about it, the more convinced I became that my initial vague recollection was wrong. So I searched for everything I could think of ("Warden", "Arryn", etc.), but it's hard to actually confirm that nobody said or thought anything anywhere that would tell us when Robert became Warden of the East.

Is this what you are referring to?

A Storm of Swords - Tyrion III     "Indeed!" Ser Kevan said heartily. "I've no doubt you'll make a splendid master of coin, Tyrion."       Lord Tywin turned back to Littlefinger. "If Lysa Arryn will take you for a husband and return to the king's peace, we shall restore the Lord Robert to the honor of Warden of the East. How soon might you leave?"

Sometimes if a person uses ---- “quotation mark then the phrase and ends with quotation mark” as in “warden of the East” interesting information shows itself. Other times not so lucky.

A Game of Thrones - Catelyn VI        "Angry," Brynden Tully admitted. "Lord Jon was much loved, and the insult was keenly felt when the king named Jaime Lannister to an office the Arryns had held for near three hundred years. Lysa has commanded us to call her son the True Warden of the East, but no one is fooled. Nor is your sister alone in wondering at the manner of the Hand's death. None dare say Jon was murdered, not openly, but suspicion casts a long shadow."

For fun and for free.

 

[falcotron]

5 hours ago, Nittanian said:

The ASOS Appendix includes "ROBERT ARRYN, Lord of the Eyrie, Defender of the Vale, Warden of the East, a sickly boy of eight years".

Yeah, that' why I said "it must be before ASoS, given the appendix".

5 hours ago, Nittanian said:

while the AFFC Appendix includes "ROBERT ARRYN, Lord of the Eyrie, Defender of the Vale, styled by his mother True Warden of the East, a sickly boy of eight years, sometimes called SWEETROBIN".

Ah, I didn't remember that. Interesting.

Anyway, here's what I know:

In ACoK Tyrion IV, Tyrion says (to Littlefinger, about Lysa): "We have no lack of enemies. I’ll use her power to oppose Lord Renly, or Lord Stannis, should he stir from Dragonstone. In return, I will give her justice for Jon Arryn and peace in the Vale. I will even name that appalling child of hers Warden of the East, as his father was before him." He offers Littlefinger Harrenhal and the Lordship Paramount of the Trident in exchange for brokering the deal.

Obviously the plan changes after that. In ACoK Tyrion VIII, Tyrion sends Petyr to Bitterbridge to try to broker a deal with the Tyrells, and when that succeeds, and wins the Battle of the Blackwater, he's given Harrenhal and the Riverlands.

Then, according to the ASoS appendix, Sweetrobin is Warden of the East. So I assumed Tywin had followed through with granting it anyway.

But as Clegane's Pup points out, in ASoS Tyrion III, Tywin is still dangling the Wardenship to bring the Vale to the king's peace. So presumably he doesn't restore it until after the Lysa-Littlefinger marriage.

Or maybe not even then, because, as you just pointed out, the AFfC appendix says he's still "styled by his mother True Warden of the East"? That's particularly odd given that his mother is dead by the start of AFfC.

So now I'm more confused than I started.

If you ignore the appendices, you can fit it all together: Tyrion offers the Wardenship for the initial LF deal, that plan get canceled when LF brokers a deal with Mace instead, Tywin puts it back on the table for the new LF deal, and presumably it's granted when LF and Lysa marry, and still held by Sweetrobin today. But that seems to contradict both appendices. So are the appendices both wrong, or is there some way this fits?