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DireWolfSpirit

Catalun independence vote

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Yes. :D

It is very good for our horeca. They have been staying over whole Belgium - or at least in Flanders and Brussels.

The Catalan and the Flemish movement coworked together so that some Catalans could stay over with some Flemish people.

A mayor of a town actually ensured (also financially) 100 Catalans could sleep in the youth hostel of the town (near Antwerp). 

 

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7 hours ago, Loge said:

Maybe people would be ready to answer if you brought up some evidence for your claim. Looking at the map, about half of the Spanish Pyrenees belong to Catalonia, and many of its tributaries have their origin in Catalonia. The case does not look so different from that of the Douro, which Spain shares with Portugal. 

Thanks for that. The question also baffled me.

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8 hours ago, Tijgy said:

ik, it is really an invasion! :D

I work near central station so I see a lot of Catalan Protestors and some Flemish ones walking through our windows.

They are saying about 45000 catalans? And that they had to change the streets?

Oh and in the news I saw some Brussels' shopkeepers saying many people wanted to buy yellow items (scarfs and hat). Yellow is the colour in solidarity with the political prisoners still in preventive jail

 

 

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

PP "of Catalonia" said that this was an absurd/exagerated/grotesque performance(the word "esperpéntico" has different meanings in English).

Citizens ("of Catalonia") said that rallies don't matter, but votes and that Junckuer and Macron have said that nationalisms are the venom of Europe. Citizens are against not only of independentism, but also against nationalism (which has ruled in Catalonia for decades as a natural thing, Catalan nationalism is a pacific movement that wants Catalonia to be respected as a nation and its identity, with or without State within Spain , since in the Spanish Parliament Catalonia doesn't have a Federal representation despite being considerate with the term "nationality" in the Constitution. In terms of votes, the 17 autonomous communities are just collectors of votes for the general elections,and thus, the representation of the Catalan identity has not enough weight in the Spanish Parliament.

In Catalonia, the votes of PP "of Catalonia" and PSC (Socialists of Catalonia) (regional branch of PSOE, socialists labourists of Spain) are added to PP and PSOE respectively in the general elections, same with the regional branch of Podemos and Citizens; and only PdCat and ERC are a complete representation of the "nation" due to not being branches of the Spanish parties, with only PSC being a little bit more " Catalan nationalistic" but not as much).  

 

 

IMAGE that illustrates the votes of the parties in the General elections of 2016 in Spain (in circles catalan/basques)

 

IMAGE of the seats the rectangle for the catalan parties in the General Elections of Spain

 

European Commission says that the demosntartaion was fine, but that people should organise to change the law/Constitution with votes. Oh well, in case against the political prisoners (yellow colours) it's not in the hands of the citizens.

In the case of a referendum (those who are independentists, or those who believe in the right of self-determination, basically 2/3 of the Catalans) this is also unchangeable, 'cause there nationalist/independentist parties are a complete minority in the Spanish Parliament.

And, in fact, only PSOE and Podemos want to change the Constitution a little bit (and not as much the Catalans would like). PP and Citizens are completely against this.

Edited by Meera of Tarth
adding political info+added image

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5 hours ago, Tijgy said:

Yes. :D

It is very good for our horeca. They have been staying over whole Belgium - or at least in Flanders and Brussels.

The Catalan and the Flemish movement coworked together so that some Catalans could stay over with some Flemish people.

A mayor of a town actually ensured (also financially) 100 Catalans could sleep in the youth hostel of the town (near Antwerp). 

 

Oh, that's interesting. It really looked like an invasion then :P 

Edited by Meera of Tarth

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@Tijgy has there been music/orchestras? That's what I read but haven't seen that on the news

PS: I found it, it was a bit difficult, though 

thisis when the music is playing

Edited by Meera of Tarth

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12 hours ago, Meera of Tarth said:

What do you mean by "it does not restore what it uses naturally"?

There are rivers in Catalonia, and not all of them originate outside Catalonia (Ter, Llobregat, etc). There are reservoirs:dunno: Pyrinees are not only French, Aragonese and Basque, but also Catalan:dunno:. Sometimes, it rains:dunno:

There is river Ebre, or Ebro in Spanish with its source in Cantabria but discharges on a delta in the Mediterranean sea in the region of Catalonia. I guess that part of its flow is naturally part of Catalonia.... Serioulsy, water resources are the least of the problems of an hypothetic independence in Catalonia. 

I really hope you are correct.

As I said, I do not care if they separate, I do not want to see people without water.

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4 minutes ago, Whitering said:

I really hope you are correct.

As I said, I do not care if they separate, I do not want to see people without water.

I am. You can find info about the different reservoirs and rivers in Catalonia using google. If water was a problem, PP  and Citizens would have used that argument many times and it's not the case.

Edited by Meera of Tarth

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4 hours ago, Meera of Tarth said:

@Tijgy has there been music/orchestras? That's what I read but haven't seen that on the news

I don't know. Personally I just saw a lot of yellow people walking with Catalan flags through the streets of Brussels. 

Almost the whole European district was inaccessible to cars, ... I did saw some videos of Catalans on the great market of Brussels. 

I also talked to some Catalans who wanted to know the way to some tourist attractions ^_^

It is very extraordinary.

And Catalan Firemen gave blood after the demonstration in Brussels! 

 

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In the metro

 

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8 minutes ago, Tijgy said:

I don't know. Personally I just saw a lot of yellow people walking with Catalan flags through the streets of Brussels. 

Almost the whole European district was inaccessible to cars, ... I did saw some videos of Catalans on the great market of Brussels. 

 

It is very extraordinary.

And Catalan Firemen gave blood after the demonstration in Brussels! 

 

Oh cool for the firemen!!!!!! Blood!

I just uploaded the post, I found a video of the whole demonstration

here is when the orchestra sings and plays Beethoven

later they say that Estonian and Flemish MPs appear

Quote

I also talked to some Catalans who wanted to know the way to some tourist attractions ^_^

Great!!!! Of course, Belgium and Flanders are so beautiful!

Edited by Meera of Tarth

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16 minutes ago, Tijgy said:

In the metro

 

That song is not independentist, (I think that there are not traditional indep. songs?:dunno:) it's a song from Lluís Llach (independentist MP) from the 70's that he used to sing during the dictatorship. It's about freedom.

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22 minutes ago, Meera of Tarth said:

That song is not independentist, (I think that there are not traditional indep. songs?:dunno:) it's a song from Lluís Llach (independentist MP) from the 70's that he used to sing during the dictatorship. It's about freedom.

Those journalists of La Libre Belgique :dunno: :D 

A Flemish Article by A Flemish Independentist Journalist describing the demonstration: https://doorbraak.be/50-000-catalanen-eisen-rechten-brussel/

Apparently one of the policeman said to him: "Disciplined and friendly people, and also very friendly towards us, the police. They can demonstrate every day!". 

I must say it is very weird if 45 000 Catalans can demonstrate without one incident while a group of 200 Belgians lead to riots :dunno:

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2 hours ago, Tijgy said:

Those journalists of La Libre Belgique :dunno: :D 

A Flemish Article by A Flemish Independentist Journalist describing the demonstration: https://doorbraak.be/50-000-catalanen-eisen-rechten-brussel/

I will post some parts of it here , great article!

According to police, they were 45,000 to argue in Brussels. 45 000 citizens who have traveled more than a thousand kilometers from Catalonia, often with the whole family to come to the streets for a few hours in Brussels. Puigdemont aptly pointed to this during his speech. He suggested that Juncker would have this demonstration at a subsequent meeting with Rajoy and ask whether those 45 000 Catalans would actually travel more than a thousand kilometers for a group of criminals

And that was the purpose of this demonstration: denounce that there are political prisoners in Spain, that the political rights are violated and that the EU looks away. The demonstration also received the name 'Europe  Wake Up'. Every speaker at the closing meeting came back to it. The only crime of both Jordi's, chairmen of ANC and Omnium Cultural is to organize a demonstration to express their convictions. The fact that the charges against Puigdemont and the other exiles in Belgium do not hold up to the Belgian judge was of course also repeated a few times. It does not improve the case of Spain in Europe.

45 000 is still an underestimation because then there are not yet added that loosely around the rally, in front of it, next to it, already at the end or quickly from one place to another. And I can say that, I spoke to the counter of the police (recognizable by the counter around the neck). He was just in a narrow street where the demonstrators had to pass between two rows of buses. Furthermore, there was a large group that never came over there. So say 50 000 .

At the end of the demonstration police satisfaction was still present. 'A demonstration without incident'. Even when it became hectic, after the appearance of Puigdemont in the demonstration, the police remained happy

Will that demonstration in the European district awaken the EU banging? I'm afraid not. The Catalans their love for Europe, motivated by their history, might well get a strong bite. 'The European project came to ban totalitarianism from Europe. Today, totalitarianism is back in Catalonia and Europe is looking away. 

Spanish response:

VicePresident Soraya of Spain says that Catalans have been able to demonstrate there because they have the  Spanish National Identification Card.

2 hours ago, Tijgy said:

Apparently one of the policeman said to him: "Disciplined and friendly people, and also very friendly towards us, the police. They can demonstrate every day!". 

I must say it is very weird if 45 000 Catalans can demonstrate without one incident while a group of 200 Belgians lead to riots :dunno:

That's because they practise a lot! Several demonstrations every year since 2010 :P starting as amateurs, now they are professionals, going to Brussels 

And another thing is patience! Having Rajoy as PM of both Spain and Catalonia due to the 155 gives you a lot of calm! Once you are accustomed to that, only discipline and practise is needed :P

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On 12/7/2017 at 9:40 AM, Meera of Tarth said:

I am. You can find info about the different reservoirs and rivers in Catalonia using google. If water was a problem, PP  and Citizens would have used that argument many times and it's not the case.

What happened in 2008?

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1 hour ago, Whitering said:

What happened in 2008?

What do you mean? The way you talk about that sounds like Catalonia was a unique place in the world or Europe having droughts as a normal thing (like this never could happen in the rest of Spain or other countries but only in Catalonia) or that episodes from the past that didn't mean not having enough water when they happened, would be repeated but in a catastrophic way out of a sudden. 

As I said, Catalonia has rivers, and reservoirs and it rains. In fact it rains more or less the same in Barcelona than in London, but in this city it rains much less frequently and with more intensity when it does, which is less effective; but rivers and rain exists. Reservoirs do exist as well.

Translation in spoiler tags

Spoiler

 

The automatic translator is not working, so I can only use google translator with separate paragraphs:

 

Speaking of curious facts ... There has been one that has suddenly happened to me: in London, it does not rain more than Barcelona, although we think that yes. -When the year ends, the average amount of rain in London is roughly the same as in Barcelona, about six hundred liters per square meter. But it happens that it rains in a different way. There he does it in a more continuous, more constant and without so much intensity. Here is the reverse. We have the perfect example on Friday last week. That day they fell to 115 liters per square meter, one sixth of what falls to Barcelona in a year. This in London was found for a couple of months

Spain is having droughts right now, but it's not the case of Catalonia. However, it's not  a catastrophic situation even for those regions of Spain. Droughts will be happening in the future in more laces in the world and many countries will be suffering from this due to climate change.

Here you have some official information about water supplies in Catalonia:

official page from the Catalan Government (Water Agency)

documents about the reservoirs

News from this summer about the good state of the reservoirs (original source)  

Translation in spoiler tags

Spoiler

translation (automatic)

Good reservoirs of water in reservoirs

Although living a warm spring and dry strength, the whole of the Catalan reservoirs are practically the same as a year ago

 

The Catalan Water Agency updates the data on the state of reservoirs in Catalonia every day, a very useful information in order to know the water reserves in our home.

The data from the 23 reservoirs that are controlled and that belong, depending on the hydrological scope that they cover, to the internal basins or to the Hydrographic Confederation of the Ebro, make us optimistic about the second half of the summer, taking into account Most of them are around 70% capacity despite living a fairly dry spring together.

The reservoirs of the internal basins are, in general, equal or slightly more full than a year ago . Of the nine reservoirs in this area, only two have lower values compared to last year : Siurana , at the foot of the Montsant, is at 38% capacity, while now a year ago it was 54% . Also Riudecanyes , in the Baix Camp, that now a year ago was close to 53% , is now 40% . The remaining seven reservoirs (Darnius-Boadella, Sau, Susqueda, La Baells, La Llosa del Cavall, Sant Ponç and Foix) , on the other hand, have water reserves almost equal to or higher than those of a year ago . All of them are between 65% and 91% capacity .

The Susqueda reservoir, the largest with the difference in the internal basins , serves as an example to see how the evolution of the water reserves in this area is positive . If the 2017 began with reserves below what would affect , according to the average of 10 years, with the beginning of spring the water reserves increased significantly thanks, to a large extent, to the thaw of the snow in the Pyrenees, until becoming almost full during the month of April . Currently , due to the warm and dry June we have experienced, the reserves have dropped slightly , but still remain above the average .

Regarding the reservoirs of the Ebro Hydrographic Confederation , however, the reserves are lower overall. Of the 11 reservoirs for which data is available, only four reserves have increased compared to those of a year ago . This is the case of Terradets i Talarn , in Pallars Jussà; Rialb , in La Noguera, and Oliana , in Alt Urgell. In the rest of the reservoirs (Baserca, Camarasa, Canelles, Cavallers, Guiamets and Riba-roja d'Ebre) , the reserves have decreased and, in some cases, significantly as Guiamets, which is only 40% capacity In general , however, the decline has been very important and between 68% and 89% capacity .

It will be necessary to see if the rains end up arriving in a general and abundant way in the coming weeks, how should it be appropriate to recover the water reserves in those areas that most need it after a spring that has been very dry in many counties in the middle southern Catalonia.

Hope it helps.

Edited by Meera of Tarth
posting links and translations

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Thanks for the links Meera, I am revising the chart I've been keeping updated that basically tracks water related news from around the globe. One day I will publish it, but as you've seen, it needs some work :P

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32 minutes ago, Whitering said:

Thanks for the links Meera, I am revising the chart I've been keeping updated that basically tracks water related news from around the globe. One day I will publish it, but as you've seen, it needs some work :P

Your welcome ;)

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