Targaryen Line of succession

[Corvo the Crow]

53 minutes ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

She's somebodies daghter though right? Presumably of the line of Aerys and Rhaella, since she woke dragons from stone...

but there is plenty of reason to believe she's not the daughter of Aerys and Rhaella... from the conflict between Viserys account of fleeing to dragonstone at night and Jaime's memory of them leaving in the morning, to Lemon Trees and grassy fields not growing in Braavos.

The parallel between Jon and Dany (and Tyrion) is real, even if most people focus on Jon's paternity... because that's the popular theory, it doesn't really have more evidence than the other two.

But in world, you are probably correct in that Dany has a widely believed parentage story... even if this was artificially reinforced by a childhood of being shown off from court to court in Essos, pretending to flee from imaginary usurper's knives. 

Just like Jon Snow was raised in Winterfell as Ned's natural son... nobody doubts his blood either!

Few days ago I opened a thread on a small timeline issue regarding the NW. There are inconsistencies in the story but not all are related to the sneaky intrigues of people, some, like that NW one, is just the writer slipping. I think it's the same with Viserys and Jaime's accounts not being the same. Even if this one was intentional, how old was Viserys at the time? 8-9 perhaps? How many years have passed since then? A scared child of perhaps 8 leaving his home some 15 years ago to board a ship and run away. I think it is an acceptable situation to have a conflicting report on. As for Lemon trees, Dany says a lemon tree growed in the courtyard. Braavos isn't all that barren with no tree at all; there are no woodlands in the islands or nearby, true but trees grow in the gardens of rich and powerful.Another thing that  people are forgetting when they try to  use the lemon tree argument is Doran has a betrothal contract for Arienne and Viserys with the Sealord of Braavos being witness to it.

[LiveFirstDieLater]

2 hours ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Few days ago I opened a thread on a small timeline issue regarding the NW. There are inconsistencies in the story but not all are related to the sneaky intrigues of people, some, like that NW one, is just the writer slipping. I think it's the same with Viserys and Jaime's accounts not being the same. Even if this one was intentional, how old was Viserys at the time? 8-9 perhaps? How many years have passed since then? A scared child of perhaps 8 leaving his home some 15 years ago to board a ship and run away. I think it is an acceptable situation to have a conflicting report on.

Yep in isolation it's like Jeyne's hips or Renley's eye color... what I am saying is that a systematic and continued pattern of inconsistencies is different.

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As for Lemon trees, Dany says a lemon tree growed in the courtyard. Braavos isn't all that barren with no tree at all; there are no woodlands in the islands or nearby, true but trees grow in the gardens of rich and powerful.Another thing that  people are forgetting when they try to  use the lemon tree argument is Doran has a betrothal contract for Arienne and Viserys with the Sealord of Braavos being witness to it.

Never mentions a courtyard...

But not lemon trees... and it doesn't explain the house being built from carved wooden beams, or memories of bare feet on green grass... or the smell of her childhood, the smell of flowers. none of these details are in isolation.

You aren't suggesting Dorne delivered a lemon tree... that doesn't make sense. When do you suspect the pact was signed between Dorne and Viserys? Surely not before Dany's whole childhood... it appears Dany left the house with the red door about when the pact was signed...

[Daemon Blackfyre IV]

I would definitely throw someone from House Velaryon. 

In fact I think I would have Aurane Waters married to Brienne of Tarth or Lynesse Hightower and adopt their first born child as my heir to House Targaryen 

[direpupy]

16 hours ago, ChuckPunch said:

The Lords will like Aegon better when he isn't the one invading with a slave army. Dany has a black reputation already, and if she can't control the dragons they'll just make her look worse. 

Meanwhile Aegon is being set up as the prodigal son returned, a savior fighting the Lannisters with a nominally Westerosi company supporting him. I wouldn't be shocked if the Faith chooses Aegon and the whole movement behind the Sparrows follows him. With that Sand Snake making her way to the High Sparrow she may be able to talk him into it on behalf of the Martells, who also will likely side with Aegon after they find out about Ser Frog's fate.

She is not invading with a slave army she freed them and is quite famed for it so they will at most be able to protest them being foreigners.

How Aegon is being set up by his supporters does not mean that he will be persieved as such and the sample chapters are making it quite clear that many do not believe his claim at all. Among them the Dornisch.

[Corvo the Crow]

11 hours ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

Yep in isolation it's like Jeyne's hips or Renley's eye color... what I am saying is that a systematic and continued pattern of inconsistencies is different.

Never mentions a courtyard...

But not lemon trees... and it doesn't explain the house being built from carved wooden beams, or memories of bare feet on green grass... or the smell of her childhood, the smell of flowers. none of these details are in isolation.

You aren't suggesting Dorne delivered a lemon tree... that doesn't make sense. When do you suspect the pact was signed between Dorne and Viserys? Surely not before Dany's whole childhood... it appears Dany left the house with the red door about when the pact was signed...

My bad no mention of a courtyard, but where else do you propose this tree right outside of Danaerys' window would be?

As for beams, well what do you suggest beams in Braavos are made from? How do they support structures?

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She fled from him, but only as far as the next open door. I know this room, she thought. She remembered those great wooden beams and the carved animal faces that adorned them. And there outside the window, a lemon tree! The sight of it made her heart ache with longing. It is the house with the red door, the house in Braavos. No sooner had she thought it than old Ser Willem came into the room, leaning heavily on his stick. "Little princess, there you are," he said in his gruff kind voice. "Come," he said, "come to me, my lady, you're home now, you're safe now." His big wrinkled hand reached for her, soft as old leather, and Dany wanted to take it and hold it and kiss it, she wanted that as much as she had ever wanted anything. Her foot edged forward, and then she thought, He's dead, he's dead, the sweet old bear, he died a long time ago. She backed away and ran.

These are the wooden beams you talk about.

 

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She remembered Ser Willem dimly, a great grey bear of a man, half-blind, roaring and bellowing orders from his sickbed. The servants had lived in terror of him, but he had always been kind to Dany. He called her "Little Princess" and sometimes "My Lady," and his hands were soft as old leather. He never left his bed, though, and the smell of sickness clung to him day and night, a hot, moist, sickly sweet odor. That was when they lived in Braavos, in the big house with the red door. Dany had her own room there, with a lemon tree outside her window. After Ser Willem had died, the servants had stolen what little money they had left, and soon after they had been put out of the big house. Dany had cried when the red door closed behind them forever.

They had wandered since then, from Braavos to Myr, from Myr to Tyrosh, and on to Qohor and Volantis and Lys, never staying long in any one place. Her brother would not allow it. The Usurper's hired knives were close behind them, he insisted, though Dany had never seen one.

Above is  when they left that house and a list of the places they have traveled to.

TWOW sample below

Spoiler

The envoy from the Seven Kingdoms had taken two of his guards into his box to stand behind him and the Black Pearl, but the other two had been posted just outside the door to make certain he was not disturbed. They were talking quietly in the Common Tongue of Westeros as she slipped up silently behind them in the darkened passage. That was not a language Mercy knew.

"Seven hells, this place is damp," she heard her guard complain. "I'm chilled to the bones. Where are the bloody orange trees? I always heard there were orange trees in the Free Cities. Lemons and limes. Pomegranates. Hot peppers, warm nights, girls with bare bellies. Where are the bare-bellied girls, I ask you?"

"Down in Lys, and Myr, and Old Volantis," the other guard replied. He was an older man, big-bellied and grizzled. "I went to Lys with Lord Tywin once, when he was Hand to Aerys. Braavos is north of King's Landing, fool. Can't you read a bloody map?"

So this house may not have been in Braavos but does it really matter as long as it is in Essos? Danaerys was a small child then she can be confusing the memories she remember. If this house was on Westeros as some people suggest and I think you imply, why then she has no memories of crossing the Narrow see to the free cities? Even more importantly, why would Doran allow them to be thrown out of their house and allow the common servants go unpunished? Did Sea Lord of Braavos bother to travel all the way to Dorne to make the pact? Or did Doran bother to go there, taking also Willem Darry with him leaving Viserys and Daenerys behind? Most important above all, how did they afford to cross the narrow sea with everything of value stolen from them? Don't suggest the crown as if they were on Westeros whoever bought that crown would sooner sell them out to Robert and get a generous reward, perhaps even a lordship, from him than to pay them.

 

Sure some things don't add up but wherever you look at this from, Dany and Viserys not being on the free cities is a theory full of holes.

 

Another spolier from TWOW

Spoiler

"Mercy, Mercy, Mercy," she sang as she descended the wooden stair to the street. The handrail was splintery, the steps steep, and there were five flights, but that was why she'd gotten the room so cheap. That, and Mercy's smile. She might be bald and skinny, but Mercy had a pretty smile, and a certain grace. Even Izembaro agreed that she was graceful.

Five flights of wooden stairs in Braavos? And a room so cheap because of the five wooden flights? I wonder what holds these wooden stairs in place. A wooden beam perhaps?

[Pikachu101]

8 hours ago, Daemon Blackfyre IV said:

I would definitely throw someone from House Velaryon. 

Having a bit of Targ ancestry doesn't mean you can be a contender for the throne, the 19th Duke of Somerset can trace his ancestry back to Henry VII but that doesn't make him a legitimate replacement to Elizabeth II.

This is what I'm certain of when it comes to the Targaryen throne:

1. Women can't inherit; Rhaenys, Rhaenyra, and Daena are proof of this. Dany will probably be an exception because she has dragons idk
2. You have to have a close Targaryen relative, being the descendent of a Targaryen princess from 100 years ago doesn't give you a claim
3. The oldest brother's sons come before the younger brother
4. Bastards can't inherit, even if they're legitimised their trueborn siblings still come before them
5. Jon can't prove he's a Targaryen so he doesn't have a claim
6. Being a Targaryen doesn't suddenly give you the throne, both Aegon and Dany have to fight to reclaim the throne
7. Until Aegon can prove he's legit Tommen is technically the head of both Targaryen and Baratheon Houses because he's the closest male
8. So really the Targaryen succession depends on whether you're a:
   • Targaryen loyalist
   • Stannis supporter
   • Follow the laws of inheritance and succession

If you're a Targaryen loyalist then the Baratheons and Martells only come after the direct male line:

1. Aegon
2. Tommen 
3. Stannis
4. Doran
5. Trystane

I didn't add Dany because traditionally women can't inherit but if she could then she'd come second after Aegon, also Tommen's there because legally he's Robert's son.

Stannis is tricky because we don't know if he'd give the throne back to the Targs if he and Shireen were to die, what we do know is he's made Shireen his heir:

1. Stannis
2. Shireen
3. Could be the closest Baratheon relation or the next Targ relation idk

Laws of inheritance and succession means the Targs have no claim because they were overthrown, also we don't know if the throne would go to Myrcella or Stannis when Tommen dies. For the sake of this list lets say the line of succession goes back to the Targaryens if Shireen dies without an heir:

1. Tommen
2. Myrcella/Stannis
3. Shireen
4. Aegon
5. Doran
6. Trystane 

[direpupy]

23 minutes ago, Pikachu101 said:

 

1. Women can't inherit; Rhaenys, Rhaenyra, and Daena are proof of this. Dany will probably be an exception because she has dragons idk

If you're a Targaryen loyalist then the Baratheons and Martells only come after the direct male line:

1. Aegon
2. Tommen 
3. Stannis
4. Doran
5. Trystane

I didn't add Dany because traditionally women can't inherit but if she could then she'd come second after Aegon, also Tommen's there because legally he's Robert's son.

 

This is not entirely correct when the male line dies out i.e. no male Targaryens, the whole women can't inherit goes out the window and the succession line passes trough the female closest to the last reining king, regardless of whether she has male descendants. since Tommen his claim comes from a female line he comes after Dany, since she is the closest to the last reigning Targaryen king.

[LiveFirstDieLater]

4 hours ago, Corvo the Crow said:

My bad no mention of a courtyard, but where else do you propose this tree right outside of Danaerys' window would be?

In the ground, in a climate it can grow.

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As for beams, well what do you suggest beams in Braavos are made from? How do they support structures?

These are the wooden beams you talk about.

Stone lintels? You can build without large wooden beams... but again it's not that there is literally no wood in Braavos, it's that the detail of carved wooden beams is just another discrepancy.

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Above is  when they left that house and a list of the places they have traveled to.

TWOW sample below

  Hide contents

The envoy from the Seven Kingdoms had taken two of his guards into his box to stand behind him and the Black Pearl, but the other two had been posted just outside the door to make certain he was not disturbed. They were talking quietly in the Common Tongue of Westeros as she slipped up silently behind them in the darkened passage. That was not a language Mercy knew.

"Seven hells, this place is damp," she heard her guard complain. "I'm chilled to the bones. Where are the bloody orange trees? I always heard there were orange trees in the Free Cities. Lemons and limes. Pomegranates. Hot peppers, warm nights, girls with bare bellies. Where are the bare-bellied girls, I ask you?"

"Down in Lys, and Myr, and Old Volantis," the other guard replied. He was an older man, big-bellied and grizzled. "I went to Lys with Lord Tywin once, when he was Hand to Aerys. Braavos is north of King's Landing, fool. Can't you read a bloody map?"

So this house may not have been in Braavos but does it really matter as long as it is in Essos?

Yes, because as you are about to point out, we have evidence of a marriage pact in Braavos... even though it says nothing about Dany.

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Danaerys was a small child then she can be confusing the memories she remember. If this house was on Westeros as some people suggest and I think you imply, why then she has no memories of crossing the Narrow see to the free cities?

 She does...

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The narrow sea was often stormy, and Dany had crossed it half a hundred times as a girl, running from one Free City to the next half a step ahead of the Usurper's hired knives. She loved the sea. She liked the sharp salty smell of the air, and the vastness of horizons bounded only by a vault of azure sky above. It made her feel small, but free as well. She liked the dolphins that sometimes swam along beside Balerion, slicing through the waves like silvery spears, and the flying fish they glimpsed now and again. She even liked the sailors, with all their songs and stories. Once on a voyage to Braavos, as she'd watched the crew wrestle down a great green sail in a rising gale, she had even thought how fine it would be to be a sailor. But when she told her brother, Viserys had twisted her hair until she cried. "You are blood of the dragon," he had screamed at her. "A dragon, not some smelly fish."

you will also notice how Dany's childhood story makes no sense for her to remember going TO Braavos... and the quote doesn't place Viserys on the boat, just that he abused the shit out of her when she talked about it.

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Even more importantly, why would Doran allow them to be thrown out of their house and allow the common servants go unpunished?

I don't believe they were "thrown out" by servants, it's a silly story that makes no sense... I don't know what Doran has to do with it.

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Did Sea Lord of Braavos bother to travel all the way to Dorne to make the pact?

The marriage pact signed in Braavos was signed by the Sealord and Oberyn Martel... it never mentions Dany.

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Or did Doran bother to go there, taking also Willem Darry with him leaving Viserys and Daenerys behind? Most important above all, how did they afford to cross the narrow sea with everything of value stolen from them?

Even in the story we are given they crossed the narrow sea "half a hundred times", what are you talking about?

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Don't suggest the crown as if they were on Westeros whoever bought that crown would sooner sell them out to Robert and get a generous reward, perhaps even a lordship, from him than to pay them.

Ok I won't suggest the crown, it doesn't make any sense that they would have been robbed and left a crown anyway...

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Sure some things don't add up but wherever you look at this from, Dany and Viserys not being on the free cities is a theory full of holes.

They were clearly in the free cities for a long time, the question is about the first 5 years or so of Dany's life...

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Another spolier from TWOW

  Hide contents

"Mercy, Mercy, Mercy," she sang as she descended the wooden stair to the street. The handrail was splintery, the steps steep, and there were five flights, but that was why she'd gotten the room so cheap. That, and Mercy's smile. She might be bald and skinny, but Mercy had a pretty smile, and a certain grace. Even Izembaro agreed that she was graceful.

Five flights of wooden stairs in Braavos? And a room so cheap because of the five wooden flights? I wonder what holds these wooden stairs in place. A wooden beam perhaps?

Setting aside that Braavos is an island city state with a navy, and would value large pieces of lumber for masts and boat making over building of houses... you will admit that the lemon descrepancy is still being harped on in Winds of Winter?

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Beyond the harbor she glimpsed streets of grey stone houses, built so close they leaned one upon the other. To Arya's eyes they were queer-looking, four and five stories tall and very skinny, with sharp-peaked tile roofs like pointed hats. She saw no thatch, and only a few timbered housesof the sort she knew in Westeros. They have no trees, she realized. Braavos is all stone, a grey city in a green sea.

The point isn't that it would be impossible for there to be a single well tended lemon tree growing outside a special carved timber house in Braavos... the point is that we are presented, repeatedly, with evidence contradicting the story of her childhood we are presented with. 

Not only that, but this House with a Red Door, heavily associated with "home", takes a central role in both her "dragon dreams" (where she sees herself as Rhaegar) and is presented in the House of the Undying between a wolf king and Aerys and before Rhaegar saying the series title... Remeber who you are!

 

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"Daenerys. Remember the Undying. Rememberwho you are." 

"The blood of the dragon." But my dragons are roaring in the darkness. "I remember the Undying. Child of three, they called me. Three mounts they promised me, three fires, and three treasons. One for blood and one for gold and one for …"

 

Notice that Dragons Roar?

 

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The red door was so far ahead of her, and she could feel the icy breath behind, sweeping up on her. If it caught her she would die a death that was more than death, howling forever alone in the darkness. She began to run

.

Wolves Howl...

[Corvo the Crow]

5 minutes ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

In the ground, in a climate it can grow.

 

Yes, because as you are about to point out, we have evidence of a marriage pact in Braavos... even though it says nothing about Dany.

 She does...

you will also notice how Dany's childhood story makes no sense for her to remember going TO Braavos... and the quote doesn't place Viserys on the boat, just that he abused the shit out of her when she talked about it.

I don't believe they were "thrown out" by servants, it's a silly story that makes no sense... I don't know what Doran has to do with it.

The marriage pact signed in Braavos was signed by the Sealord and Oberyn Martel... it never mentions Dany.

Even in the story we are given they crossed the narrow sea "half a hundred times", what are you talking about?

Ok I won't suggest the crown, it doesn't make any sense that they would have been robbed and left a crown anyway...

They were clearly in the free cities for a long time, the question is about the first 5 years or so of Dany's life...

Setting aside that Braavos is an island city state with a navy, and would value large pieces of lumber for masts and boat making over building of houses... you will admit that the lemon descrepancy is still being harped on in Winds of Winter?

The point isn't that it would be impossible for there to be a single well tended lemon tree growing outside a special carved timber house in Braavos... the point is that we are presented, repeatedly, with evidence contradicting the story of her childhood we are presented with. 

Not only that, but this House with a Red Door, heavily associated with "home", takes a central role in both her "dragon dreams" (where she sees herself as Rhaegar) and is presented in the House of the Undying between a wolf king and Aerys and before Rhaegar saying the series title... Remeber who you are!

 

Notice that Dragons Roar?

 

.

Wolves Howl...

By crossing the Narrow Sea I meant as in from West to East, not North to South or South to North. She obviously didn't cross it that way.

I agree with the lemon trees in Braavos being odd but this doesn't mean she came from Dorne, it could just be Dany mixing memories up and as for Braavosi valuing wood, you see from my quote they also use it in buildings, even your quote shows there are houses with timber.

As for her first five years, if she was with Willem Darry then it means Viserys was also with them so if they go to Essos from Dorne after Willem Darry dies then even though Dany may not remember it, Viserys would and does he have a reason to lie to her about being in Dorne? If you suggest they were in Dorne and left for the free cities before Darry died, well than that Lemon tree house can't be in Dorne.

 

[LiveFirstDieLater]

16 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

By crossing the Narrow Sea I meant as in from West to East, not North to South or South to North. She obviously didn't cross it that way.

Why is this obvious?

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I agree with the lemon trees in Braavos being odd but this doesn't mean she came from Dorne, it could just be Dany mixing memories up and as for Braavosi valuing wood, you see from my quote they also use it in buildings, even your quote shows there are houses with timber.

Yep, as I said, it's a descrepancy, an oddity, not an absolute. But in the same way I would be surprised to see a palm tree at the Wall.

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As for her first five years, if she was with Willem Darry then it means Viserys was also with them so if they go to Essos from Dorne after Willem Darry dies then even though Dany may not remember it, Viserys would and does he have a reason to lie to her about being in Dorne? If you suggest they were in Dorne and left for the free cities before Darry died, well than that Lemon tree house can't be in Dorne.

 

I don't think she was with Viserys for the first five ish years... and I don't think the great grey bear of a man with soft hands who Dany remembers was Willem Darry.

I think it was at about age five that Dany was put in the "care" of Viserys and they started trekking around Essos. Viserys abused her and beat into her the story of her childhood we get fed. The memory she has of arriving in Braavos would be the end of her red door days and the start of her flight from the imaginary usurper's knives.

[Corvo the Crow]

On ‎14‎.‎11‎.‎2017 at 5:51 PM, LiveFirstDieLater said:

Why is this obvious?

Yep, as I said, it's a descrepancy, an oddity, not an absolute. But in the same way I would be surprised to see a palm tree at the Wall.

I don't think she was with Viserys for the first five ish years... and I don't think the great grey bear of a man with soft hands who Dany remembers was Willem Darry.

I think it was at about age five that Dany was put in the "care" of Viserys and they started trekking around Essos. Viserys abused her and beat into her the story of her childhood we get fed. The memory she has of arriving in Braavos would be the end of her red door days and the start of her flight from the imaginary usurper's knives.

If the man wasn't Darry, who could he have been? He was clearly some old guy, sick and near death, why not put her in the care of someone younger if arrangements to send her to Viserys could be made, surely someone younger could be found to put her in the care of, instead of some grey bear of a man who isn't ser Willem Darry not of the kingsguard.

 

 

[Corvo the Crow]

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“On no account can Prince Daemon be allowed to ascend to the Iron Throne,” the Hand wrote his brother, Lord of Oldtown. “He would be a second Maegor the Cruel, or worse.” It was Ser Otto’s wish (then) that Princess Rhaenyra succeed her father. “Better the Realm’s Delight than Lord Flea Bottom,” he wrote. Nor was he alone in his opinion. Yet his party faced a formidable hurdle. If the precedent set by the Great Council of 101 was followed, a male claimant must prevail over a female. In the absence of a trueborn son, the king’s brother would come before the king’s daughter, as Baelon had come before Rhaenys in 92 AC."

From Rogue Prince, on brothers coming before daughters. Dance of the Dragons takes place after this though, so nothing is set on stone.

[LiveFirstDieLater]

4 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

If the man wasn't Darry, who could he have been? He was clearly some old guy, sick and near death, why not put her in the care of someone younger if arrangements to send her to Viserys could be made, surely someone younger could be found to put her in the care of, instead of some grey bear of a man who isn't ser Willem Darry not of the kingsguard.

Clearly I have no difinitive answer... but there are plenty of possibilities:

One of the men from the Tower of Joy didn't end up in a cairn... perhaps a wound explains the great grey bears limp/cane.

One of the missing Maesters from Roberts Rebelion... Maesters are so often described as grey, it may explain why Dany is fluent in high valyrian, and the bears soft hands. Walys Flowers, Maester of Winterfell during the rebellion, is considered by Lady Barbrey to be responsible for Rickard's Southern Ambitions and is conspicuously missing from the series so far.

Anyway, options exist...

[Corvo the Crow]

52 minutes ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

Clearly I have no difinitive answer... but there are plenty of possibilities:

One of the men from the Tower of Joy didn't end up in a cairn... perhaps a wound explains the great grey bears limp/cane.

One of the missing Maesters from Roberts Rebelion... Maesters are so often described as grey, it may explain why Dany is fluent in high valyrian, and the bears soft hands. Walys Flowers, Maester of Winterfell during the rebellion, is considered by Lady Barbrey to be responsible for Rickard's Southern Ambitions and is conspicuously missing from the series so far.

Anyway, options exist...

This person died when Dany was very little, he couldn't have teached her.

Only person we know of in ToJ that could fit the description, at least in age, is the White Bull. Others aren't such old men they would become gray bears in few years so this would require Ser Gerold Hightower to survive ToJ when we know all died with perhaps the exception of Arthur Dayne, whose survival is speculated but he wasn't old and even if it was him who survived and he is this gray bear of a man despite his age where is Ashara?

[LiveFirstDieLater]

5 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

This person died when Dany was very little, he couldn't have teached her.

Taught... That's the age when you teach children languages, when they are very young... Dany was probably about 5 years old when she left the house with the red door.

5 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Only person we know of in ToJ that could fit the description, at least in age, is the White Bull. Others aren't such old men they would become gray bears in few years so this would require Ser Gerold Hightower to survive ToJ when we know all died with perhaps the exception of Arthur Dayne, whose survival is speculated but he wasn't old and even if it was him who survived and he is this gray bear of a man despite his age where is Ashara?

Ummmmm ya so age in general isn't a bad point... but we don't know everyone's age who was at the ToJ.

Most of Ned's companions seem to be of a similar age, but Theo Wull? Martyn Cassel? Or even Oswell Whent? We don't know how old they were. And we don't know for sure if all of them died. But again these are just possibilities.

I don't know what Ashara has to do with this, supposedly she jumped in the sea, but we won't be surprised if she's whispering from behind a weirwood mask will we.

[Corvo the Crow]

1 hour ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

Taught... That's the age when you teach children languages, when they are very young... Dany was probably about 5 years old when she left the house with the red door.

Ummmmm ya so age in general isn't a bad point... but we don't know everyone's age who was at the ToJ.

Most of Ned's companions seem to be of a similar age, but Theo Wull? Martyn Cassel? Or even Oswell Whent? We don't know how old they were. And we don't know for sure if all of them died. But again these are just possibilities.

I don't know what Ashara has to do with this, supposedly she jumped in the sea, but we won't be surprised if she's whispering from behind a weirwood mask will we.

Thanks for the correction, I don't get to practice often.

Apart from the kingsguard assuming all of them are young wouldn't be wrong I think; Ned must have chosen them not for their quality as a swordsman but because he trusted them. To trust them they must have been close to him so also likely to be around the same age as they would be able to spend more time together. A good example is Edmure and his vassal-friends. Also a must notice on this is Roose not being invited despite being around the same age; If only Robb showed the same wisdom as his father did. Oswell Whent may also be an older fellow but no special attention paid to him. If any KG survived the encounter it would be Arthur Dayne because Howland Reed saved Ned from him and not anyone else.

I mentioned Ashara because it is said her suicide was due to her grief, some saying grief over her brothers death, some over the loss of Ned and Cersei saying because Ned stole Jon away. Since we think/know Jon is not Ashara's, two possible reasons remain for her suicide and well, if Arthur is alive, one more possible reason for her suicide removed.

 

[Pikachu101]

On 14/11/2017 at 0:13 PM, direpupy said:

This is not entirely correct when the male line dies out i.e. no male Targaryens, the whole women can't inherit goes out the window and the succession line passes trough the female closest to the last reining king

We don't know what would happen because it's never been an issue

[Corvo the Crow]

19 minutes ago, Pikachu101 said:

We don't know what would happen because it's never been an issue

There are other houses with female rulers and I am not just talking about Mormonts and Dornish. Rohanne Webber is a very good example because she even had a male cousin and yet she ruled coldmoat not her cousin, who was also related to Webbers' overlord through marriage.

[Pikachu101]

20 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

There are other houses with female rulers

I'm talking specifically about the monarchy, I know they'd rather give the throne to the king's cousin rather than his daughter but what happens if the daughter is the only Targ left? Does she keep the throne? Does she have to have a son and they crown him? We just don't know, Dany's an exception;

1. She has dragons, no one's going to question the woman with dragons
2. Aegon is the only other Targ but he needs her to strengthen his legitimacy 
3. If Aegon turns out to be a fake then she's the only Targ so the crown has to go to her

[Corvo the Crow]

6 minutes ago, Pikachu101 said:

I'm talking specifically about the monarchy, I know they'd rather give the throne to the king's cousin rather than his daughter but what happens if the daughter is the only Targ left? Does she keep the throne? Does she have to have a son and they crown him? We just don't know, Dany's an exception;

1. She has dragons, no one's going to question the woman with dragons
2. Aegon is the only other Targ but he needs her to strengthen his legitimacy 
3. If Aegon turns out to be a fake then she's the only Targ so the crown has to go to her

She would be the most wanted bride in the kingdoms so I think they would let her keep the throne, but, if there are close male relatives carrying the name of another house, then one of those may be crowned.