Targaryen Line of succession

[Corvo the Crow]

With all the talks of bastards and theorised bastards, what is the place of a legitimized bastard? Are they treated as if they were born when they are legitimized so if my eldest is a legit bastard he'll still be lower in the line or are they treated as if they were born legit?

[LiveFirstDieLater]

13 minutes ago, Davos the Dragonslayer said:

Will he declare that I am not bastard anymore? 

When he joined Night's Watch he lost nobility.

When he run from Night's Watch he lost his head.

When he became three-eyed raven he lost humanity. 

Sure, applications for legitimization can be sent, in triplicate, to what the hell are you talking about?

 

Bloodraven and Jon seem like they are both set to use the whole "I died" thing to get out of their prohibition on crowns...

Bloodraven still has his head... it just has a root growing through his eye socket...

Bloodraven is not the three eyed crow.

[Corvo the Crow]

23 minutes ago, Davos the Dragonslayer said:

Will he declare that I am not bastard anymore? 

Not unless he decides he will rule as Jon (something)snow, a member of a cadet house. Or he may just name himself Jon Longclaw, following the example of Daemon Blackfyre.

[direpupy]

34 minutes ago, RhaegoTheUnborn said:

Going by Westerosi law, the male line always comes before the female line. And Tyrion is not a Targaryen.

Never said he was as a matter of fact i never mentioned Tyrion, so i do not understand your point perhaps you where trying to respond to an other poster?

[direpupy]

40 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Someone should tell Dany she would rejoice over this news! Only if the great lords also agree that Robert and his kin shouldn't sit their arses on the throne as they also come from a female branch. And if all male Targaryens come before the females, Dany herself has a weaker claim to the throne because of Jon, even if we disregard that he comes from a male line. Jon may or may not be a bastard, it doesn't matter. Robb and Stannis, two kings, intended to legitimize him, Robb may have already done so. If all else fails, it is quite possible Northerners will put Jon on the Northern throne so he can legitimize himself as a king.

 

Finally, succesion is ambigous at best; . In the North a sister comes before an uncle. In Dorne (at least parts of it) males and females have equal succession rights. This is what Arianne uses to declare Myrcella queen.  Who is to say that in Westerlands a sister not comes before a cousin? And Ben Plumm may not be a Plumm at all, if the tales of his ancestor's conception is true. This would make his line a Targaryen bastard line, again able to be legitimized just like Jon.

The tread is about Targaryen succession, so the succession from the point of view of the House Targaryen and there supporters, how it works in reality was never they OP,s question

But since you raised it, i agree that in practice this line would not be followed a lot would depend on who the great lord's would side with.

[direpupy]

24 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

With all the talks of bastards and theorised bastards, what is the place of a legitimized bastard? Are they treated as if they were born when they are legitimized so if my eldest is a legit bastard he'll still be lower in the line or are they treated as if they were born legit?

If i remember correctly from Aegon IV legitimizing his bastards they come behind all those who where born in wedlock so even if they are older they are still lower.

[Corvo the Crow]

9 minutes ago, direpupy said:

The tread is about Targaryen succession, so the succession from the point of view of the House Targaryen and there supporters, how it works in reality was never they OP,s question

But since you raised it, i agree that in practice this line would not be followed a lot would depend on who the great lord's would side with.

If we are looking at it with from the Targaryen point of view then I must remind the whole Dance of the Dragons was caused because a Targaryen tried to place his daughter on the throne. It was the great lords who opposed the idea but in the end line of the daughter prevailed anyway, if simply because Aegon II was killed by his own men.

If they didn't oppose back then, then it may have been the line of Ben Plumm's ancestor that were ruling now.

[direpupy]

2 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

If we are looking at it with from the Targaryen point of view then I must remind the whole Dance of the Dragons was caused because a Targaryen tried to place his daughter on the throne. It was the great lords who opposed the idea but in the end line of the daughter prevailed anyway, if simply because Aegon II was killed by his own men.

If they didn't oppose back then, then it may have been the line of Ben Plumm's ancestor that were ruling now.

Actually no because the Plumm's descend from Aegon III his third daughter, so in your scenario the line of succession would pas true the first daughter Daena the mother of Daemon Blackfyre.

And the fact is they did oppose it, and the Targaryens changed there way of succession because of it. This is why all male Targaryen's come before the female Targaryens in the line of succession. But in the current time unless Aegon is real or Jon is legitimized there are no male Targaryens and then you go to the female that is closest to the last ruling king, this is Dany. So unless Aegon can prove he is the real thing or Jon that he is legitimate, Dany is they heir in they viewpoint of House Targaryen. 

[Pikachu101]

2 hours ago, direpupy said:

then as of right now in the books nobody comes before Dany.

Aegon does, like I said the word of a dead and deposed king holds no value especially when its a man v. a woman. Viserys II wanted Rhaenyra on the throne but everyone simply dismissed it and crowned Aegon instead because he was male. Also even if Aerys made Viserys his heir Viserys is dead which means his claim goes to the next male and that's Aegon, so either way he's in line for the throne. 

Besides if we're talking legality neither Dany or Aegon have a claim to the throne because their house was deposed. 

[Pikachu101]

2 hours ago, direpupy said:

By the way you do know that Visery's and Rhaenys are dead don't you, so as such they are not part of the line of succession any more. 

I did everyone because I thought this was a "if Aerys wasn't deposed what's the line of inheritance" kind of question 

[direpupy]

Just now, Pikachu101 said:

Aegon does, like I said it the word of a dead and deposed king holds no value especially when its a man v. a woman. Viserys II wanted Rhaenyra on the throne but everyone simply dismissed it and crowned Aegon instead because he was male. Also even if Aerys made Viserys his heir Viserys is dead which means his claim goes to the next male and that's Aegon, so either way he's in line for the throne. 

Besides if we're talking legality neither Dany or Aegon have a claim to the throne because their house was deposed. 

Where talking the succession from the viewpoint of House Targaryen, that was the question of the OP, if you want to discus what will actually happen, well that's an entirely different question.

Aegon can only come before Dany if he can convince people he is the real thing, and in the sample chapter's GRRM has released for Winds of Winter we see that a great many doubt he is the real thing so his acension to the throne is far from a sure thing.

[direpupy]

1 minute ago, Pikachu101 said:

I did everyone because I thought this was a "if Aerys wasn't deposed what's the line of inheritance" kind of question 

A now it makes sense we where talking different subjects, the OP however only named people who are currently alive in the books himself, because he wants to know what the line is right now in they eyes of house Targaryen.

[ChuckPunch]

10 minutes ago, direpupy said:

Where talking the succession from the viewpoint of House Targaryen, that was the question of the OP, if you want to discus what will actually happen, well that's an entirely different question.

Aegon can only come before Dany if he can convince people he is the real thing, and in the sample chapter's GRRM has released for Winds of Winter we see that a great many doubt he is the real thing so his acension to the throne is far from a sure thing.

The Lords will like Aegon better when he isn't the one invading with a slave army. Dany has a black reputation already, and if she can't control the dragons they'll just make her look worse. 

Meanwhile Aegon is being set up as the prodigal son returned, a savior fighting the Lannisters with a nominally Westerosi company supporting him. I wouldn't be shocked if the Faith chooses Aegon and the whole movement behind the Sparrows follows him. With that Sand Snake making her way to the High Sparrow she may be able to talk him into it on behalf of the Martells, who also will likely side with Aegon after they find out about Ser Frog's fate.

[LiveFirstDieLater]

1 hour ago, Widow's Watch said:

Dany is the only one whose blood no one can question (other than the fandom apparently). And she's got dragons.

I don't think anyone really questions Dany's blood, she's blood of the dragon, mother of dragons, etc.

People question who her parents were, just like they questioned Jon's... and Tyrion's... and Aegon's... it's kind of a theme.

This is very similar to:

Quote

That was the only time in all their years that Ned had ever frightened her. "Never ask me about Jon," he said, cold as ice. "He is my blood, and that is all you need to know."

And:

Quote

For eight thousand years the men of House Stark had lived and died to protect their people against such ravagers and reavers . . . and bastard-born or no, the same blood ran in his veins.

But just because she has dragon blood doesn't mean her parents were Avery's and Rhaella...

Daenerys Stormborn?

Quote

"No," Ned said with sadness in his voice. "Now it ends." As they came together in a rush of steel and shadow, he could hear Lyanna screaming. "Eddard!" she called. A storm of rose petals blew across a blood-streaked sky, as blue as the eyes of death.

 

 

[LiveFirstDieLater]

43 minutes ago, Pikachu101 said:

Besides if we're talking legality neither Dany or Aegon have a claim to the throne because their house was deposed. 

That's not how claims work, they both have a claim, and we could debate who's is better... there can be many "claims" to the throne, and they and their "legality" (legitimacy?) don't depend on who sits the throne in practice.

[Pikachu101]

1 hour ago, direpupy said:

Aegon can only come before Dany if he can convince people he is the real thing

Agree, I don't think he's the real deal either.That being said it doesn't really matter who has the better claim because he's under the hopes that she'll marry him. 

26 minutes ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

That's not how claims work, they both have a claim, and we could debate who's is better... there can be many "claims" to the throne, and they and their "legality" (legitimacy?) don't depend on who sits the throne in practice.

Actually it does, when a new House sits on the throne their descendants are placed above the former House's line. Stannis and Renly have a stronger claim to the throne than Viserys and Dany because House Baratheon was in power.

[Alexis-something-Rose]

37 minutes ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

I don't think anyone really questions Dany's blood, she's blood of the dragon, mother of dragons, etc.

What I meant was that out of the three who may have a claim to the throne, she is the one who is unquestionably Targaryen. I also don't buy into the whole she's this person's daughter or that person's daughter. I really should start writing full sentences.

In the end though, I think a council will be called to determine succession and that will not happen until the Others are dealt with.

I don't think it matters who sits the Iron Throne between now and the end of the Long Night. Something as horrifying as the Long Night might contribute in changing the mentalities a bit, I think.

[LiveFirstDieLater]

28 minutes ago, Widow's Watch said:

What I meant was that out of the three who may have a claim to the throne, she is the one who is unquestionably Targaryen. I also don't buy into the whole she's this person's daughter or that person's daughter. I really should start writing full sentences.

She's somebodies daghter though right? Presumably of the line of Aerys and Rhaella, since she woke dragons from stone...

but there is plenty of reason to believe she's not the daughter of Aerys and Rhaella... from the conflict between Viserys account of fleeing to dragonstone at night and Jaime's memory of them leaving in the morning, to Lemon Trees and grassy fields not growing in Braavos.

The parallel between Jon and Dany (and Tyrion) is real, even if most people focus on Jon's paternity... because that's the popular theory, it doesn't really have more evidence than the other two.

But in world, you are probably correct in that Dany has a widely believed parentage story... even if this was artificially reinforced by a childhood of being shown off from court to court in Essos, pretending to flee from imaginary usurper's knives. 

Just like Jon Snow was raised in Winterfell as Ned's natural son... nobody doubts his blood either!

[LiveFirstDieLater]

39 minutes ago, Pikachu101 said:

.Actually it does, when a new House sits on the throne their descendants are placed above the former House's line. Stannis and Renly have a stronger claim to the throne than Viserys and Dany because House Baratheon was in power.

So claims aren't something clear it like that... 

Robert took the throne by deposing Aerys... that doesn't mean that Aery's descendants no longer have a claim. This is especially true in that Robert's "claim" was based on his being descended from the Targaryens himself.

They have a claim, but the claim doesn't gueruntee they will sit the throne... obviously.

Claims aren't dependent on practical ability to sit the throne, nor will the best claim win out in practice. In practice claims are mostly irrelevant, but that wasn't the question.

[Pikachu101]

1 hour ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

So claims aren't something clear it like that... 

Robert took the throne by deposing Aerys... that doesn't mean that Aery's descendants no longer have a claim. This is especially true in that Robert's "claim" was based on his being descended from the Targaryens himself.

They have a claim, but the claim doesn't gueruntee they will sit the throne... obviously.

Claims aren't dependent on practical ability to sit the throne, nor will the best claim win out in practice. In practice claims are mostly irrelevant, but that wasn't the question.

ok I get what you mean