SFDanny Posted June 7, 2007 Share Posted June 7, 2007 Well… You are right I leave out the possibility that Varys acted as agent of Robert. From all we know he and Illirio are playing their own game so acting as agent of Robert contradict to it. How killing Ned that they considered or Drogo invasion could serve to Robert needs? Plainly his needs meant nothing to them. Plainly Varys and Illyrio have their own agenda(s), but the question is does Varys have his own agenda when he, at Robert's initiative, orders Daenerys death, and when warns Ser Jorah to stop any attempts on her life? As I said, your interpretation could well be right, but there is an alternative explanation provided for us. Timing is the key here. Varys delivers the news immediately after his conversation with Illirio. They were concerned by Ned’s investigation and looked for ways to stop it. Killing Ned was a bad option so Varys choose a way that would remove Ned no less effectively and without of causing any other conflicts. And he would have succeeded if no Littlefinger interfere. I like the idea. It smacks of Varys and his looking for a way to get rid of this hand without actually getting rid of him. I just wish there was more proof of it. Help he needed in order to not have been reduced to begging was really small. Just some gold not even much. If he didn’t receive it this is practically equal to no receiving help at all. Do you think some Targ loyalists might have introduced Viserys to people who would house and feed him over the years - Illyrio included? Perhaps even to protect him from possible assassination? If so, then he received some help. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mezeh Posted June 7, 2007 Share Posted June 7, 2007 Do you think some Targ loyalists might have introduced Viserys to people who would house and feed him over the years - Illyrio included? Perhaps even to protect him from possible assassination? If so, then he received some help. It is possible but raises a question why did they stop on some point? Dany recollect that they were welcome in many houses at the beginning and lacked nothing but then invitations ceased and their life turned to be much harder. And theses difficulties tool a heavy toll on Viserys who definitely wasn’t ready for them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon Targaryen Posted June 9, 2007 Share Posted June 9, 2007 It is possible but raises a question why did they stop on some point? Dany recollect that they were welcome in many houses at the beginning and lacked nothing but then invitations ceased and their life turned to be much harder. And theses difficulties tool a heavy toll on Viserys who definitely wasn’t ready for them. Possibly, Doran wanted to make it appear that Viserys did not have any supporters to protect his own butt. He didn't want Viserys to stay in his style because if he did then it would seem obvious that Doran was helping him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mezeh Posted June 10, 2007 Share Posted June 10, 2007 Possibly, Doran wanted to make it appear that Viserys did not have any supporters to protect his own butt. He didn't want Viserys to stay in his style because if he did then it would seem obvious that Doran was helping him. Somebody wanted to make it looks that Viserys has no supporters that’s right. And in a way it made Viserys life much safer since no one was about to care about his assassination because he obviously posed no threat. Yet becoming a beggar ruined his reputation and made him even more unlikely claimant for the Iron Throne. I couldn’t see how Doran could profit from it. And mind that Doran was not against taking risks only against unnecessary risks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aspasia Posted June 10, 2007 Share Posted June 10, 2007 Why would he have realised that there would be any danger? Because anyone who spent ten minutes around Viserys wanted to smother him, and Drogo could be counted on to go ahead and take him out given sufficient provocation. Illyrio is more than astute enough to realize Viserys would *certainly* provide the provocation. No one ever put up with Viserys long unless they were planning to make a profit off the acquaintance; can you imagine Illyrio believing Drogo would put up with him if Viserys was going to cost him a war? The little asswipe thought he could behave like the emperor of the universe... without a shred of power to protect him from the very real consequences of being such an asshole. Someone with more actual power than you will squash you like a bug. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aspasia Posted June 10, 2007 Share Posted June 10, 2007 the message to Mormont alerting him of the assassination attempt Do we even know that the message contained a warning, as opposed to, say, an advertisement? The hit on Dany consisted in offering a lordship to whomever whould kill Viserys, Dany,and/or the baby. Such a "bounty" hit can only work if the offer gets publicized enough to get to the ears of someone capable and willing to do it. Why assume the letter WARNED Mormont about the assassination rather than just informed him: "Hey, great news, Robert's handing out a lordship to whoever kills the chick you're spying on!" Mormont, his loyalties changing as Dany grows under his eye, thinks UH OH! and runs back to protect her.... Regarding the discussion of Illyrio's motivations, and whether Varys amd Illyrio could have planned for either Viserys or Dany to rule or whether they must have another heir apparent squirrelled away... Don't forget that "brokering" the marriage to Drogo made Illyrio a fortune. He doesn't have to have any mysterious plot to restore the Targaryens behind that deal; he could have just wanted to make a nice pile of profit out of selling this pretty young homeless princess. When she turns into the Mother Of Dragons, then there might have been new ideas hatching as well... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mezeh Posted June 10, 2007 Share Posted June 10, 2007 Actually we don’t know if Illirio really made a fortune on Dany’s marriage. He clearly want’s her and others to believe so but how much he really got we don’t know. Dany is smart enough to ask her brother a question why Illirio helps them. Viserys answer her because Illirio know that Viserys would reward him once he will regain his throne. But Dany once again is smart enough to realize that this is not highly probable and likely would never happen. So the only explanation remained for her is Illirio financial gain. And this gain should be indeed great enough to make a cost of three dragon eggs small compared to it. Yet this all is only what Dany’s thinks. But from what we know Illirio is not after financial gains. Varys operations in KL cost is apparently high and promises no direct gains to Illirio. Yet he gives to Varys what Varys needs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the silent speaker Posted June 10, 2007 Share Posted June 10, 2007 Did Robert offer a lordship for Dany's death? I remember he offered one for Viserys, because Dany thinks at one point "Robert owes Drogo a lordship," but I don't recall offhand that he did anything for Dany other than to order her assassination. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon Targaryen Posted June 10, 2007 Share Posted June 10, 2007 Did Robert offer a lordship for Dany's death? I remember he offered one for Viserys, because Dany thinks at one point "Robert owes Drogo a lordship," but I don't recall offhand that he did anything for Dany other than to order her assassination. Robert offered a lordship to whoever killed Dany. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aspasia Posted June 10, 2007 Share Posted June 10, 2007 Actually we don’t know if Illirio really made a fortune on Dany’s marriage. There is a reference to the "fortune in horses and slaves" (or something close to that wording) that Illyrio had made for his part in selling Dany to Drogo. It wasn't a quote from Illyrio, which could of course be his flimflamming. But you are right, how huge a fortune would it have had to be to rival the worth of his bridal gift? I don't think his overwhelming motivation is only short term financial gain, I was suggesting that *at the time* he didn't have to fit together selling Dany to Drogo with a plan to restore her or any other Targaryen to the throne of Westeros. He had a good enough motive without that: these broke once-royals are drifting about, can I make a buck off them? and the biggest buck he could find at the time was to auction Dany off as a wife. Later, a plot to restore the Targaryens to the Iron Throne might have solidified... partly due to changes since Robert's death, the instability in Westeros, the fact of Dany's dragons. Illyrio could make some big game profits off this one, if it works out as he and Varys hope. For the record, I don't think it's impossible or even highly implausible that Illyrio and Varys work together out of friendship, long term mutual trust, or that their real goals *could* be the wellbeing of the realm and world as well as the wellbeing of Varys and Illyrio. Some of their methods are.. well. frightening, but the story Varys tells Eddard Stark, that he works for the good of the realm and the realm needs peace, hasn't been conclusively shown as bunk. or if it has, I missed it. No doubt someone will be able to point out what I missed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mezeh Posted June 11, 2007 Share Posted June 11, 2007 How many horses and slaves? Horses maybe expensive but Illirio never was a horse trader and slavery is at least officially prohibited at Pentos. Well financial motive simply doesn’t work for Illirio and even less for Varys who never showed any interest in any luxuriates. Yet the plot existed prior to Robert’s death and prior to dragon hatchling. What was a true goal of the plot we could only guess. Clearly it wasn’t Viserys on the Iron throne and it is highly improbable that it was Dany as queen of Westeros. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon Targaryen Posted June 11, 2007 Share Posted June 11, 2007 What was a true goal of the plot we could only guess. Clearly it wasn’t Viserys on the Iron throne and it is highly improbable that it was Dany as queen of Westeros. It seems, from what Doran said, that it was Viserys on the Iron Throne with Varys, Illyrio and Doran being the powers behind the throne. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mezeh Posted June 12, 2007 Share Posted June 12, 2007 It seems, from what Doran said, that it was Viserys on the Iron Throne with Varys, Illyrio and Doran being the powers behind the throne. Doran – yes but we have no indication that he was connected to Illirio and Varys and had any common plans with them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bronn Stone Posted June 12, 2007 Share Posted June 12, 2007 Doran – yes but we have no indication that he was connected to Illirio and Varys and had any common plans with them. Doran was plotting with SOMEONE to marry Arianne to Viserys. It is hard to find a candidate other than Illyrio. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mezeh Posted June 13, 2007 Share Posted June 13, 2007 Doran was plotting with SOMEONE to marry Arianne to Viserys. It is hard to find a candidate other than Illyrio. I agree that it is hard to find other candidates but we know too little to say that there wasn’t any. For example Archon of Tyrosh most probably was involved into the plot and Doran has many connections in Free Cities. You see the problem is that Illirio and Varys obviously didn’t mean Viserys for the throne and whatever were their plans Doran most probably was unaware of them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red Rex Posted June 13, 2007 Share Posted June 13, 2007 This is more of a ramble than anything but its so twisted it might be possible. Thinking about R + L = J. If Jon is the only son of R that makes his claim better than Dany's. As has been brought up before the Kingsgaurd stayed at the Tower of Joy to protect the royal heir (we think). R was the Targ heir. That makes any son of his the rightful king before any of the Mad King's other kids. I have this mental image of how things go...Dany fights and wins the kingdom...the Others are destroyed utterly freeing Jon from the NW because the NW is gone. Just as she prepares to sit the Iron throne she cuts herself on it and the new Grand Maester Sam Tarly points out that by all the laws of the realm she is not queen, its Jon who is king. She flies into a rage, at which point Bran wargs into Drogon and roasts her... Its twisted and dark and ironic. The perfect wrap up. I disagree with Dany dying, shes hott Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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