Aerys Posted August 25, 2007 Author Share Posted August 25, 2007 They could be but Stoneheart's loyalty is still shrowded. While she may be all for killing Freys and Lannisters, whether or not Northmen would answer to her or she to them is still to be found out. I think Stoneheart is just going to harry Lannister, Frey and their allies around the Riverrun areas, making it an uncomftable place to be. The rogues and such she commands don't sem put up to actually meet a large enemy force in pitched battle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elliott Posted November 30, 2007 Share Posted November 30, 2007 No I think after Beric dies alot of the BwB leave the group and strike out on their own. I'm sure Thoros mentions this somewhere in the book. Did Beric die for good? I must have missed or forgotten that part. When did that happen? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon Targaryen Posted November 30, 2007 Share Posted November 30, 2007 Did Beric die for good? I must have missed or forgotten that part. When did that happen? He gave the last kiss to Catelyn instead of Thoros and died for good after giving it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greg Posted November 30, 2007 Share Posted November 30, 2007 Did Beric die for good? I must have missed or forgotten that part. When did that happen? Beric died when he revived Catelyn Stark. Thoros relates the story to Brienne when she is taken prisoner, right before she is taken before Lady Stoneheart. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elliott Posted November 30, 2007 Share Posted November 30, 2007 That makes sense now. The second time I read the series, I tried skipping the POV’s I found kind of boring the first time around. Brienne didn’t make the cut. I enjoyed the read more, but knew there must have been a cost. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tsoert Posted November 30, 2007 Share Posted November 30, 2007 Yeah, and there is a great deal of stuff like that going on in AFFC that isn't very obvious. (Jaqen=the Alchemist=Pate, Alleras=Sarella, Ser Shadrich the Mad mouse, Gravedigger = the Hound, FrankenGregor, etc). Frankly I think AFFC gets a bad rep. GRRM didn't get much credit for the subtlety that was used in AFFC, not even from some of the more ardent fans who post here. I think it's because most didn't even realize half of what GRRM was trying to do. Ok I saw pretty much all of them apart from Shadrich. Whats so special about the Mad Mouse then? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sholtzma Posted November 30, 2007 Share Posted November 30, 2007 Ok I saw pretty much all of them apart from Shadrich. Whats so special about the Mad Mouse then? Ser Shadrich is now in the hire of LF and had met Brienne earlier - and knows about the reward for finding/delivering Sansa Stark to KL. Readers are wondering if the Mad Mouse will recognize Sansa with her hair dyed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Other-in-law Posted November 30, 2007 Share Posted November 30, 2007 One thing that confused me that maybe someone could explain... Are there TWO crowns? One for Robb and one for Jeyne? Or just Robb's? This has come up in the past, and the consensus (as I recall) was that there were two. The Freys took Robb's (after nailing it to Grey Wind's head for a while) and eventually it ended up on Ryman's whore, and then with Cat after Ryman ignored Jaime's order to surrender it and took it with him to his doom. Meanwhile Jeyne had her own Queen's crown that stayed with her inside Riverrun until her mother gave it to Jaime. There could hardly have been any handing of the same crown over the walls of a besieged castle surrounded by rivers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shadowbinding shoe Posted November 30, 2007 Share Posted November 30, 2007 Tom may have some contact with Stoneheart's gang but what he really wanted after the siege on Riverun was to settle down He knows that winter is coming and outside the castle there will be starvation soon. He finally got rid of Edmure and his ilk which he never liked (they wanted to hang him) and now he can enjoy himself in their castle. There is no animosity between him and Jaime. They enjoy each other's company and frankly any info he could pass on to Stoneheart's men (beside the Blackfish's disappearance) is useless. You don't need a superspy to see a large troop escorting Edmure and Jaine from Riverun to the Westerlands. A troop that large stands out to anyone with eyes or ears for miles around. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sal Paradise Posted November 30, 2007 Share Posted November 30, 2007 I always read that passage as the explanation for the repeated ambushes/hangings that plagued the Freys while traveling around Riverrun. Essentially, Tom was a mole within the camp, with easy access to comings and goings (just observe, ask questions, overhear) who reported back to Stoneheart et al., so that they could string up whomever moved around without a proper escort. It is pretty obvious that it is a calculated decision, the eradication of the Freys. In the short time we are able to glimpse the goings on around Riverrun, already 2 potential heirs of Walder are killed. This is even remarked upon. I thought it was just the natural actions of a clandestine, guerilla force engaged in a vendetta. I don't think that Tom suddenly decided it was time to leave the Band, and just go on his merry way. These are hardened, determined, almost righteous individuals, eager to punish what they perceive as egregious wrongs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the silent speaker Posted November 30, 2007 Share Posted November 30, 2007 I thought it was obvious that Tom was there to kill Emmon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zoë Sumra Posted November 30, 2007 Share Posted November 30, 2007 I thought it was obvious that Tom was there to kill Emmon. IAWTC, with the addition that I think he also passed word of Ryman's departure to the BWB, and has been generally acting as a spy in their rampant Freyicide. Note that Jaime tells Tom that Genna is the "one that matters"... I wonder if this will lead to Tom (or the BWB let in via the postern gate) killing her too when otherwise they might have spared her. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heir of Winterfell Posted December 1, 2007 Share Posted December 1, 2007 I have a little trouble with the theory that Tom was a spy working for Stoneheart, and that she had received information from him. How would he get information to Stoneheart? She was always on the move... they don't have ravens and if they did the ravens wouldn't be able to find them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shadowbinding shoe Posted December 1, 2007 Share Posted December 1, 2007 We get hints about their communication system. It sounds like some code involving fire: revealing and concealing a fire to observers (like the indians did with smoke for example). I would guess it's not too complicated so complicated messages couldn't be made. Now Tom's acceptance into Jaime's retinue was unexpected and wouldn't have been in Stoneheart's plans. I think Tom's on his own now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
valyrian dragonlord Posted December 2, 2007 Share Posted December 2, 2007 Any chance of the possibility that Stoneheart and the BwB will actually assult, using stealth and subterfuge, and hold Riverrun for a time? Haven't hangings increased since Stoneheart set up? Taking Riverrun would be a step to up her operations. Tom as a spy could spy out their strengths/weaknesses at the current time. Unlikely, I know, it doesn't seem to be their style but Winterfell was taken in a similar way with a smallish band of warriors. no, winterfell was unguarded and riverrun has guards. jaime mentions that emm has too large a garrison Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
valyrian dragonlord Posted December 2, 2007 Share Posted December 2, 2007 I have a little trouble with the theory that Tom was a spy working for Stoneheart, and that she had received information from him. How would he get information to Stoneheart? She was always on the move... they don't have ravens and if they did the ravens wouldn't be able to find them. daven tells jaime of a ring of fires around them. like communication. maybe morse code Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elrick Posted December 3, 2007 Share Posted December 3, 2007 My theory is this. I think that Tom is working for Stoneheart and is passing information through fire or some other form of communication. I can't remember all the chapters but I kinda liked Tom's character and think that he is probably still loyal to the BWB. However if he did break off from the bwb maybe it was because he felt that Stoneheart was unnerving or even scared him. I will have to reread AFFC because unfortunately I forgot a lot of what happened. I remember Tom being still loyal because he was present when they hung that Frey at the end of ASOS so I think he's still loyal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Atreides Posted December 3, 2007 Share Posted December 3, 2007 I think that Tom's an informer for sure. He probably is the reason why Ryman was ambushed and hanged. Now though, he has a place to winter, so he might choose that over the BwB. Speaking of which, I don't think that the BwB plans to take and hold Riverrun. At most, take it and kill/capture the Freys living there to make a point. If it's a really bad winter they might get lucky and avoid a siege. As said, the Freys have a large garrison, but Genna isn't the commander. Emmon is, and does he come across as competent? Once Jaime's gone Riverrun is at small risk for a bunch of desperate outlaws that might need winter shelter. Edit: Grammar Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anya, Vengeance Demon Posted December 3, 2007 Share Posted December 3, 2007 I agree that it would be silly for the BWB to try to hold Riverrun. To survive, especially as the civil war in the south dies down, they have to be mobile and they have to blend back into the local population. Holding Riverrun for any serious length of time works against both aims. And what would it accomplish? Lady Stoneheart can't hope to succeed where Robb Stark failed; she doesn't have nearly as many men, what men she has aren't as well trained, and her personal charisma is diminished somewhat by being a frightful bloodthirsty revenant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the silent speaker Posted December 4, 2007 Share Posted December 4, 2007 Ryman was hanged, Atreides, not hung. It's canon that Freys are not tapestries. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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